Trinitarians don't know why Christ came as a man and had to die on the cross. Christ's metamorphosis from a human being who had the nature of sin that could be tempted to an immortal man who could not was the reason for it all. Thus setting the real example for all those who would follow him in becoming a partaker of the divine nature. God doesn't need to change his nature. It was, therefore, unnecessary for Him to become a man to participate in a process of purification like the rest of His creation. If God had to do any suffering and changing it would have been long before he created anything. But such is mere speculation.
In order for the new testament to take effect, its author had to die. Was the author of the new testament a created human being? No. The author of the new testament is the Father himself, the eternal Spirit who "came down from heaven" _without leaving heaven,_ and who manifested himself on earth in genuine human form, as his own Son, so that he could lay down his own life for us, raise himself from the dead, and give eternal life to all who believe on him.......whose name is the name which is above _every_ name: *JESUS.*
Dale Tuggy: the opposite side of the same Evangelical fundamentalist coin. Embarrassing. Clear biblical teaching? What? You should debate someone like D B Hart but you won't because you'd be way out of your depth.
Frustrating ... why don't you respond to David B Hart or Rowan Williams or Sarah Coakley or someone of their ilk rather than the mediocre people you almost invariably attack.
I don't see this as a attack at all by Dale Tuggy, this is a respectful response to two giants of antylic philosophy and there view of God becoming Incarnate. As a Open Theist Social Trinitarian myself I can agree with Dale That Suffering from "the Father" view point is Uncomprehensable during the Incarnation window of Time, I believe Dale said the Father has a front row seat to this Suffering and just takes it? The Father could only take so much as he forsakes the Son while he was dying on the Cross, this act seems to cause greater Suffering to the Son as he is dying on the Cross. Also Divine Judgments and Grace is throughout the Bible so God is NOT in his corner rolled up in ball crying in his suffering but has taken the action neccessary throughout history to bring mankind back to a loving relationship with there creator. The Greatest of these action of Grace is "the Word" Becoming Flesh, God was manifested in the Flesh. I Personally believe that Classical Theist who try to defend the Trinity has used Unbiblical Philosophical language in there efforts and I believe it is necessary for Social Trinitarian and Unitarian to start with Scriptural Language instead.
@@hudsontd7778 There is no philosophy, properly speaking, in scripture. We use philosophy to help us to explicate what we find in scripture. Classical theism, as David B. Hart has shown in his book _The Experience of God_ , is taught by every great religious tradition; its the patrimony of humanity. Open theism, and other such newfangled philosophies essentially reduce God to a being within the universe: a magnified and non-natural man. There is a convergence between Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Islam, Judaism, Vedanta, and so forth, in terms of its basic conception of the Absolute outside of time and space. Moreover, the social trinity is clearly and unequivocally tritheism, irrespective of the protestations of its advocates to the contrary! If you are going to postulate three separate centres of consciousness then evidently you have three gods, even if you do your best to avoid that conclusion with word games.
@@bayreuth79 Classical Theism makes God Unrelational(Tri-Unity), this Pure Metaphysics, Pure Bliss, Pure Act, Outside Space/Time, Perfect being theology makes God a Static Statue Unmoved Mover God a Unthinking God without Potential Freedom Freewill to Create Freewill Humans to partake in God Love/Grace. Has Hart responded to the concern of modal collapse? What is your view on Divine Location? where does God dwell throughout the Old And New Testament is it NOT Heaven? Was Heaven created by God? would you admit that God found it necessary to MOVE/Change Location from Pure Bliss to Creation(Heaven)? Why did God do this? I need to do a little bit more study on the Tri-Theism objection, I believe James White defends this view of 3 centers of consciousness in his book and I disagree with most everything he says. Would it still be Tri-Theism if you have Three God's who are in Perfect Unity in Everthing that they do?
@@hudsontd7778 Augustine and Thomas Aquinas were both classical theists and both believed that God is intra-relational. Aquinas held that the 'persons' are 'subsistent relations'. You have used a word which reveals your lack of understanding of classical theism, i.e., 'static'. God is not imagined to be 'static' in classical theism. Aquinas summarises it well: "We know _that_ God is but not _what_ God is". Classical theism preserves the absolute mystery of God, as Augustine put it: "If you think you have understood God, you have not understood God". Since God is the creator and sustainer of the whole universe it follows that 'he' cannot be one of the beings within the universe- and whatever God is 'he' must be utterly mysterious since he is not in space or time (how could he be given that he created them?). Open theism doesn't sufficiently preserve the mystery and otherness of God; in fact it reduces him to a being among beings, even if he happens to be the greatest being. In classical theism God is Being-itself. Since God is outside of space-time it follows that he is in no location. Is heaven in space-time? I think not. The incarnation does not imply that the Logos underwent change. Aquinas has written well about this. God is not a being; he is Being-Itself. I could never accept open theism since this 'god' is tantamount to a Zeus-like figure. The God who is the creator and sustainer of all being must be mystery.
@@bayreuth79 yes the Essence/Energy Distiction is a must, God Simple in Essence/Being Unchanging but Dynamic in Energy/Action CHANGE. Thomas Divine Simplicity is BLASPHEMY a very strange teaching that's BLEEDS God's Action in Time into the Divine Neccessary Being/Essence. God Action are Contigient on Man Freewill, God is CHANGING his strategy/mind throughout time adjusting to man failure so God can accomplish the plan God has for mankind. This Mystery god sounds like the god of islam unlike creation, that doesn't sound like a Revelational Loving God to me. In this pure metaphysic how do you explain the absolute law of LOVE if God is in Pure Bliss why did God create Mankind? The Tri-Une God clearly found the Potechia to create Mankind a worthy cause, the moment God Created Man a covenant/relationship with man was in full swing and God has been in a Being and Becoming mindset ever since.
