Trying (and Failing) to Love Sonic Adventure 2 - A Retrospective 

Hey, that's me! Whoa!

Hey, great video. As someone who's always viewed SA2 much the same as you did in this video it feels great to see someone make an indepth analysis of why many of the design decisions of this game don't work. That said, based on what you've said thus far I think Heroes may be one of the game you like the most or a mid ground between SA1 and SA2. Giving far more open levels, lots of mechanical depth in your movesets because of the team switching, and ultimately providing an experience that's far more substantive rather than stylish. My advice for the combat though is to primarily stick to aerial attacks as knuckles as he launches the characters towards enemies and generally takes them out in a single hit. In fact just about every power type character has a means of pulling off a similar feat as they each have some attack that can easily take down enemies quickly. Once you have that down you come to realize the combat isn't all that hard to deal with and it just becomes part of the general flow of chaining actions to speed through the level. I personally view this Heroes how many SA2 fans claim SA2 is to SA1. Difference is I think Heroes actually succeeds.

The insanity of all this is hillarious to me. I played SA2 practically every day for 2 years back when it came out on DREAMCAST xD Right after beating SA1 and demanding to my parents to get me 2. I had to buy it myself, and it became the one game I wanted to play all the time. Basically never dropping it. And, it wasn't until Sonic X came out, that I figured out Rouge was a Spy. Not once, not once before was that ever clear to me during my entire gameplay of SA2. Goes to show you how much of a roller coaster the game was.

Can you really call it a sonic adventure 2 Retrospective if you don't talk about the chao? -1/10 worst video ever ok I'm joking but man the chao garden is the best part man

A friend of mine once told me about this idea he had that the thing that makes a thing in pop culture beloved isn't so much the quality of the work, but how it resonates with its audience on an emotional level. G1 Transformers, for instance, intentionally invoked themes and imagery of wars that children of the time would have already been familiar with. This isn't speculation by the way, it's literally in the show bible, which also says that Optimus Prime was directly meant to evoke historical figures like George Washington and Abe Lincoln. The actual content in the show isn't really the thing driving its success, it's what the content _evokes_ out of people emotionally that's really important. The appeal of SA2's story, likewise, isn't really in its actual beat-by-beat narrative content so much as it is the greater emotional arc of the whole piece. It's the sincerity of it all, in my opinion. When the devs talk about how much fun they had working on it, I really can see it in the way the writing expresses itself; they threw in all the stuff they thought was cool and connected them by way of sentimental themes that rang true to their hearts. It's that sincerity that i think is why it's starting to be really fondly remembered at this point in time; after nearly a decade of Sonic games that are dripping with an almost _excruciating_ amount of self-awareness, it's hard not to look back fondly on something that was neither aware of nor cared about how other people would view it.

That's a great shout, the fake emerald always stuck out to me enough that I sort of saw past it in the immediate sense. It creates other problems but it does do a good job of tying into the lightly covered theme of identity, thanks for pointing that out!

Mhm "It's like poetry, it rhymes". Anybody want a pizza roll?

Considering that sonic used the emeralds a lot already, and for the same reason shadow cannot keep his super form in space while sonic can, and shadow was created based on the super sonic murals, it makes sense. That also explains the mistaking shadow for sonic

@@thatitalianlameguy2235 The mistaking Shadow for Sonic did make more sense with the Terios design. As much as I like Shadow, in broad daylight he should never be mistaken for Sonic, especially by Amy.

I never thought of this, that's a really cool use of the fake vs real theme that so much of Sonic and Shadow's rivalry in this game goes for. You could even argue that the reused assets between many stages also reflect this theme... even if it was much more likely just done to save time.

I mentioned in another comment something similar, but you're spot on about the ranking system. I ended up getting about half of the stage Emblems, including just about all of the Speed stage ones. The only ones I didn't really dive into were Crazy Gadget because I just don't find that level particularly fun, and I think I stopped after the hidden Chao for Final Rush, just to get back to work on the video itself. I think that these sorts of simple mission tweaks were a great way to expand on SA1's early version of this, to the point that I wanted even more variety from them - it's exactly what Sonic should be doing for replayability to me!

@@TheGoldenBolt The only reason to replay Crazy Gadget a lot is the eggman line at the end. "You'll never leave this room alive. HA HA!" The most random thing he says in that entire game.

"and so the ranking system encourages you to replay the levels and learn the mechanics in order to get better" Problem is that there's not really a lot to get better at in this game. There's so much automation, so much playing itself. I can't get better at homing attacking through floating enemies, or holding B while grinding on rails, or watching boost pads fling Sonic through a loop. There's some fun to be had playing as Sonic and Shadow, but so many stages get bogged down by these annoying gimmicks. It's a shame because they improved the handling compared to SA1, but then took so much freedom to actually play away. Shoutout especially to whichever of the two final stages has the giant spiral grind rail that you just go down for like 30-50 seconds doing literally nothing. Definitely can't get better at the treasure hunting stages, that comes down to memorization of the hints and what locations they match with. And in some stages, restarting until you get good locations (looking at the two very vertical space levels, mostly). EDIT: Also it will never not be stupid that SA2 takes away the radar working for all 3 things at once. They make _bigger_ levels and also _nerf_ the radar?! What?! Simply stupid. I don't play SA2 often, but if I ever play it again it will be on PC with a mod that fixes the radar. There's not a lot of skill to the shooter stages either. Once one figures out the trick you mentioned about the top part moving independently, that's it, that's pretty much the skill ceiling. I'll also always personally feel that this gameplay style wasn't fun to begin with. It was passible in SA1 because 1, the stages were short and there weren't many of them, so Gamma was over before it became grating. In SA2, there's so many of these stages, and they're the longest stages in the game, so for me they easily wear out their welcome before I even finish one side's story, let alone the entire game. And for the record, yes I did actually A rank everything and unlock Green Hill Zone when this game released on GameCube.

@@mjc0961 Uh, yeah all that is wrong. Homing attacking doesn't have a huge skill ceiling, but it's possible to go for them too early, possible to waste more time in the air than needed, and even possible to get hit by a stray bullet in some sections, so there's stuff to be better and worse at. If you think grinding is just holding B, then I can confidently say you suck at it, because it's about managing your speed and ability to balance the character. Most loops are partially skippable in SA2, as shown a couple times in this very video. Shoutout to you for missing how easy it is to skip Final Rush's grind spiral with a fall, which was almost showed off in this very video. Now look, I don't much like the other two gameplay styles either, but efficiently exploring all possible gem locations is the point of those stages, and since you don't seem to realize, you get good scores treasure hunting by not using the hint system, the team wanted you intimately familiar with the levels. I wouldn't quite call it a success, but to pretend there's nothing to learn is just petty ignorance. Even at a rudimentary level the mech stages at the very least demand memorization from the player to not get hit constantly. Given that you didn't know these things, no I don't believe you A ranked everything in this game and unlocked Green Hill. For the record.

Recently began playing Battlefield 4 never played the story mode and by God it is epic I recommend anyone try BF4 in 2021 /22 and give that amazing campaign a run through. Kevin's like I'm a fucking Nerd and still don't get it lmfao

Trust me, I'm a Ratchet & Clank guy so I totally get that! Everybody's got a favorite, it's amazing...up until the wars start lol

by FAR the best sonic

@@TheGoldenBolt Yep, until the war starts lol. I need to play Ratchet and Clank one day! Your videos have made me super interested in the series.

I would argue that even the Genesis games were niche, especially Sonic 1 which is a hard game to enjoy upon analyzing it & comparing it to later games. I always found the 2D Games to have more jank than the Adventure Games personally with it easier to run into offscreen enemies or fall into unexpected pitfalls in them.

@@TheGoldenBolt Had no idea the Ratchet and Clank fandom could be so contentious.

That's one in the editing process where I was like "Yeah, that's a good 'un" haha

Yeah. From the looks of it, Sonic 06 would've definitely been a Sonic Adventure 3.

Project 06 check it out

"Project 06, check it out. Dungeon Chill, out."

Honestly I'd say the Dark story is a much better experience because it's where all the actions that drive the plot actually happen but it's clearly a deliberate choice to have the protagonists on the back foot from the beginning and never really catch up with things until right at the end. It's not a masterpiece of fiction but there are a lot of ideas about the role of the military in using scientific research as a medium to find ever more powerful means to inflict violence on people and how the creation of those weapons enables more destructive forms of terrorism to occur. I also think that the idea of giving each of the three protagonists a rival who represents the kind of person that they would have had the potential to become through different life experiences. I mean there's a lot you could read into Eggman/Robotnik having to live with the knowledge that the government executed/imprisoned and enslaved multiple members of his family. I'd be motivated to become a terrorist under those circumstances.

There is a mod that has the levels and cutscenes in canonical order that makes the story flow way better. Similar to clementj64's lp.

@@mysteryperson1958 so what's the name of it?

That's the point. In the Hero Story, it's all about the Heroes fighting back against the villains despite their ignorance of the situation. They suddenly found themselves in their individual situations, Sonic being chased in the city after being framed by Shadow and chased by G.U.N without understanding why, Knuckles suddenly having his master emerald stolen by Rouge and embarking on a race to collect them all first, and Tails learning that Sonic has been captured or arrested without quite understanding the motive of his supposed crimes. Each of them are thrust into the situation immediately and don't understand what's going on. In the beginning of the Hero Side Story they are gathering together and trying to make sense of their situation, which eventually allows them to counter attack the villains and fighting against them even without understanding everything. Start on the defensive but end on the offensive. In the Dark Story the ones orchestrating their situations are themselves, Eggman infiltrating G.U.N to free Shadow fully intent on using him for world domination which sets the entire game in motion, Shadow finally having a chance to fulfill his misguided revenge and uses Eggman to gather the emeralds and activate Gerald's plan while framing Sonic almost by Proxy, and Rouge who stole the Master Emerald from Knuckles involving him and involves herself with Eggman shortly after to investigate him and later project Shadow. They are in control of their situation immediately, you watch as they begin to plot or enact their plans, you know their actual intentions and have full context as to what's going on. They begin on the offensive catching the heroes off guard and end up on the defensive when the heroes are more composed. Either could be played in any order. If you played the Dark Story first, you don't really have a good idea about the heroes' whereabouts and what they are up to. Play the Hero Story, you don't understand the situation fully and are left with questions about the villain's plans and motivations. Have no preference myself, both are good options.

I was utterly dying at the "alternate ending" sequence when Sonic crashed the rocket. That was amazing.

This is my absolute fav game, I've 100%'d it at least 2-3 times, several partial completions - never used the treasure hunting hints since they didn't ever make sense and trashed the points, so the way you approached it really stuck out to me. I just kept getting faster and faster and dashing through the levels until the radar activated and then honing in from there. Really surprised to see that approach with how much you played it. For everything said in the vid, it's so on point, I was just fine personally compensating for jank in terms of learning, and for faulty story with my own headcanon, but I notice those that don't do that and take every game straightforward solely as it's presented are the ones to dislike it the most. Rightfully so I guess it's their preference, but I thought the video underlined this difference of approach much more clearly for me than others, since I agree with all the flaws but still like it all the same.

There is no need for hints at all! All you need to do is go in circles/rising spiral! I actually never used hints playing it for the first time because that requires standing in place and reading a sign, which is not how other play styles work, which is a flowing skillful constant movement through the level. I memorized a route and easily got the emeralds on all levels (except death chamber, that one is a labyrinth :/ the only stage i dislike) Most of the time, the emeralds spawn rather far away from each other. I got "all emeralds trackable" mod to spice up the gameplay after 200 hours on steam and most of the time, youre only gonna track one at a time. So if you found an emerald in a lower section, chances are the next one is in a middle or upper section. Which is what i do; i just aim myself at a section i think its gonna be in and voila, most of the time it is there. I really do feel like a real treasure hunter. Literally feel master emerald.

@@KOTEBANAROT For the smaller earlier stages I completely agree, though for larger stages it's not my preferred play style. I don't play with the all radar on mod personally, so searching without hints can be repetitive. You are able to read hints in motion, though it can be finicky to get it. Also personally, considering the bonus points go No hints under minute: 2000 1 hint under minute: 1500 No hints over minute: 1000 I personally don't like risking the -1000 and prefer just to take the -500 + better time bonus

"That incentive for mastery I feel is more lacking in SA1. It causes me to have the most fun in SA1 by trying to subvert the levels instead of interacting with them as intended, which is fun, but not as rewarding." This is a great way of putting it. Whenever I play SA1, I'm only there for Sonic's story and playing the levels at high skill barely involves playing them at all. With every SA2 revisit I still feel like I'm playing the game, even though I've been playing it just as long as SA1

Not to mention SA2 had a smaller team.

Oh no, not at all - my M.O. going into any video isn't to drive somebody to dislike a game, you're correct there. If anything, I'm usually yelling at people to play the game for themselves and/or driving in backstory and historical context that'll hopefully help people look at the game in a _rosier_ light! Even when I'm critical of something, I pretty much never aim to just trash it because that doesn't accomplish anything, there's enough of that out there. Critiques or praise, no matter what I hopefully try to bring it with some good vibes.

Interesting. I've often found that which 3D Sonic game people play first influences whether they like SA2 or not. Did you prefer SA1 over 2? I played 2 first and then when trying DX (There's a mistake), couldn't get into it. I played the Dreamcast version of 1 years later and did enjoy most of it for what it was. The thing is, I acknowledge that mech and treasure hunting are flawed in SA2, but the Sonic/Shadow levels and game play are how I wish they'd do 3D Sonic today. Love the arcade-y ranking system and how Sonic controls in this game. And the Chao Garden is excellent. Such a shame they never tried to take it any further.

@@TheGoldenBolt Except Secret Agent Clank, which rightfully deserves to burn in hell, lmao.

I didn't have trouble until the Last Story, which seemed to have a huge difficulty spike.

I played 2 first, it was the only game I had for my dreamcast for a while, so I put alot of time into it, and it's awesome just how much extra content the game managed to have, with side missions and the kart racing, it made the game feel like a complete package.

He wasant there in 2001. In 01' this game was a 10/10 One of the last good sonic games.

Sonic adventure 2 is not good. Love how he states the facts and all of you fanboys get triggered

@@LuffyxNamiisathing Congratz, you have an opinion! Now stop being an asshole. Literally nobody in this thread was triggered until you showed up

I like to think back to that one dude's video whenever I see SA2, the last good sonic game, the first bad sonic game.

@@LuffyxNamiisathing wat?

Wouldn’t be surprised she wanted to rescue him she cared for him so much.

​@@galfinsp7216

This is a really cool take, I appreciate you sharing it! I don't mean to completely wash away the multiplayer with the little gag at the end, of course - for what it is, I think it's far more involved than I expected going in, a cool 3D take on Sonic 2's slightly (or not-so-slightly) modified multiplayer stages. But since I was recording myself playing either with two controllers at once, or with one character just not moving, I didn't feel comfortable sharing any really proper opinions on it. If I couldn't get the real deal experience, I'd feel bad saying more than "it's here for those that want it, it's pretty cool" - a standard for the sometimes obligatory multiplayer modes of late 90s and early 2000s games, but a lifelong memory for those that grew up playing it!

@@TheGoldenBolt I appreciate that you appreciate it, man! I've got a lot to say about a lot of things, but I can't ever be sure if it's enough for a video. So I ramble in text instead I hope you have a good Christmas!

​@@TheGoldenBolt I love that RU-vid likes deleting my comments but there's some alternatives to trying out the local multiplayer on Steam. There's the Remote Play Together feature on Steam that lets you stream your game to an online Steam friend (no extra purchase required!). And then there's a SA2B Network mod that adds online multiplayer functions to the port... provided you'd also do the necessary setup steps to make it work. Obviously, not as good as playing just locally with two controllers or locally on a GameCube/Wii/modified Wii U but oh well, they're alternatives to play it online.

Apparently the sub makes more sense than the dub cause this was the era of shitty game dubs

Chris lied to me. Or he told me and I forgot, everything became a blur once I started reading about Gizoids. I really do deeply appreciate the kid-replayability angle of this game, even if it ends up leading to a sort of spotfesty story when you zoom out. It's the sort of structure built for making these deep-seated memories and covering up places where the game trips - a great call, even if it doesn't lend itself as well to deeper dives that come years later. (But then, most Sonic games struggle with these sorts of deep dives anyway, because Sonic's gameplay is actually so fast that it looks worse with RU-vid's default video codecs than it does when you're playing it. Dude can't catch a break on any level sometimes.)

Was about to say this. Sonic Battle has a ton of in-depth lore about Gerald and why he created Shadow. Then Shadow the Hedgehog comes out and screws it all over, before they do a soft reboot for 06, before they do yet another soft reboot within 06, before they do another soft reboot with Generations... Honestly, I'm wondering what they're going to do with Frontiers and how they screw up the story with that game.

@@Tobunari ian flynn is writing frontiers, so hopefully the story cwill be at least decent

@@voltricity1942 I dunno... I've read his Other M comic...

@@Tobunari His Sonic stuff is pretty god tier though

I thought for sure they did explain why it was there.

Thanks I was about to comment the same thing lol

Yeah he really wasn’t thinking at all in the story critique

I'm glad to hear you enjoyed the video so much, thanks for the kind words friend! It's a shame that _both_ Adventure games have fallen off (or...stayed off in 2's case), but that's just how it goes sometimes, as our interests and tastes change over time.

@@TheGoldenBolt There are definitely aspects of SA1 that I really enjoy (Sonic's and Knuckles' stages are very fun and have solid level design, I liked the hub worlds etc.) and I'd still rather play it over SA2 any day of the week.

Go look at 'Some Call Me Johnny's' Review of SA2 where he talks about the story of this game. If that doesn't tell you how poorly the story is written then IDK what to tell you.

@@taylord5381 Never said he was. He just explains what want to say in a shorter time.

@@taylord5381 Bro, Do you read/comprehend or what? I said he explains in more detail the many problems with the story that I've caught as well playing the game over the years. It's no coincidence that THIS video list/complains about the same problems too in story. Too many to go over in a comment section on RU-vid. Bottomline, it's easier to understand if you watch a clip of the video.

@@natejackson1037 That video doesn't explain anything I'm trying to get across... Since no one seems to understand what I'm talking about I timestamped a point in johnny's video that goes over a few of the plot holes. (Mainly in the last story) ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-qbfXqOMf0Ak.html Everyone seems to think I'm shitting on the game not understanding that the WRITTING of the story doesn't make sense at some point. Turning your brain off, yeah it's a great epic story. But the more you go in detail, the more you realize it isn't well WRITTEN. That's all I'm saying.

@@qtippz I'll explain the points Johnny commented: -Shadow literally says that the Ark was being used to create weapons of massive destruction, but then the military soldiers thought they were going to far with the experiments and decided to do the attack -SA2 is a fiction story, so most of his arguments are based on how things would work in REAL LIFE, but guess what? The story is not based on real life limitations. So Gerald Robotnik is not given the name of "greatest scientific mind in history" for no reason, in this technological world is not hard to imagine that the genius Gerald managed to secretly program the camera that was being used before his death for the file be transfered to the program that will destroy the earth. -And also, I don't see much of a problem in recording death sentences for the sake of y'know, have some concrete file proving that a person died. Even if they'll never show to public. -The ARK was announced to the public that it was just "shut down because of an accident" so they would have to explain why explode an gigantic city in space, not only that, but destroying it would make a lot of pieces fall on earth and potencially kill people. After they shut-down, there wasn't much reason to destroy the entire colony, since no normal people would be able to get there in the first place. Just shut down and forget that it existed was enough. -Johnny clearly didn't pay attention to the story, obviously the colony crashing down on earth when putting the seven emeralds was made AFTER Maria's death, because right after he discovered that, he became completely insane and lost control over it's actions, making the feeling of revenge completely surpass the hope on humanity. -His 4th point is basically the first one I pointed here, they thought they were going too far with these powerful weapons and military feared that it would cause trouble, so they decided to stop everything and do the attack. As show in lots of parts of the game and especially in Shadow the Hedgehog, the GUN is extremely agressive with his actions, if ANYTHING can cause future disasters to humanity, they don't care how far they'll have to go to eliminate, they'll throw jets flying over the city, throw bombs everywhere and even a giant truck chasing a hedgehog. -That's literally wrong, right after Gerald was taken to the prison he WAS forced to continue his researches, because Amy questions about all the crazy math and writing on the wall that was in Sonic's jail, so he was making researches and secretly was programming all the stuff the ARK thing. Most of the points are easy to understand by paying attention to the details, SA2 doesn't just throw all information on your face, even one small bit of dialogue or detail in the gameplay will complement the main story. Judging by how Johnny didn't pay attention to some details, I wouldn't be surprised if he said that "Eggman destroys his own robots in his levels lol", because that is not told in cutscene, but just using your head you'll realize that these aren't Eggman's robots but instead GUN robots. Others are just arguments that tries to be logical with real life situations like "how could GUN be so extreme with their actions? How could Gerald program things while on jail?" Well, do you find weird that the most brilhant genius in the world would be able to program things on the ARK while on Jail? Especially since he was supposed to continue doing research so he certainly had the tools like Internet and stuff. That's why I like SA2, because it has the best Sonic story, but doesn't show with long and boring cutscenes that breaks the entire pacing, every cutscene shows everything the player has to know while having subtle info spread in short dialogues and scenes that tells more in-depth about the events. And you don't even need to see the story to understand it's gameplay, unlike SA1 where the cutscenes are important to tell the player on where to go, just press START and you can play the game just fine. So you have an awesome story that doesn't has to sacrifice the fast pacing action gameplay that Sonic must have.

But what about sonic 1 I don't see people take it slow or unleashed so why do one thing for one game but not the other

You're too kind friend, thank you - and welcome aboard!

I think there's a good comparison to be made there! The smaller team, a late-console production cycle, the desire for a darker story and more replayable game structure, and the fact that it's just clicked with so many people in ways that few games really replicate. SA2's production ends up being a bit different of course, thanks to the whole "Sega on fire" thing, but it'd be interesting to imagine either game if the situation was reversed.

@@TheGoldenBolt yeah, there is an awful lot of similarites between these games, and even between other Nintendo and Sonic games....i myself always thought Mario Sunshine had some similarites with the Adventures games

@@realsalu634 For what it's worth, I tend to think of Sonic Adventure 2 as being not quite unlike Super Mario 64 in that both games boldly had a different feel than what came before or since. This makes Sonic Adventure like Yoshi's Island, in that both are very inspired by what games came before and attempts to build off of them while also trying new(ish) things. I admit that these aren't perfect comparisons, for a number of reasons, but they still gave me some pause when they crossed my mind.

@@hyperpowerfulform5132 for me Adventure is more like Mario 64, with both bringing their series to 3D, and changing their series forever, Adventure 2 is more like Mario Sunshine, with them changing the formula, and being quite janky

Also you put SA2's development in to a context I never realized before, what with the team being so small. It really does cast a whole new light on all the game's shortcomings. As a life-long Sonic fan, I feel a little taken aback that I never really put it all together like this before.

Agree about the level design in SA1. SA1 is a better game than I used to give it credit for, but it definitely suffers from trying to use the same level geometry for three characters each with radically different play styles. I appreciate the attempt and that it works as well as it does, but the difference between Red Mountain and Pumpkin Hill is night and day. It's a massive difference to play a character in a level that works for them and a character in a level that was MADE for them.

You're a stronger man than I.

Yes. Sonic fans are a bunch of hypocrites, didn't you know?

yes, git gud

I just like the game...

I didn’t grow up with it and recognize its greatness.

@@bunsmasterbunny Same. But I will admit, playing through some levels for the first time were kinda annoying. But most of those were towards the end of the game, so it at least made sense since games back then didn't really pull their punches when it came to the difficulty, whether actually hard or kinda cheap.

Hey, it's okay, that happens! I'm glad I gave it a shot anyway, because even if it didn't end up clicking for me (and hell, even if I ended up with more issues than I had way back when I first played it), I can absolutely appreciate SA2 better now in the context of its development. Plus, even with this video out, I'd still like to go back in and get more of the Emblems just...really just because I like collecting things, so I'm not quite done with the game yet! I ended up somewhere in the 70s or 80s before I stopped and knew that they weren't really making a difference in what I had to say, and while I'll never end up actually doing all the Chao stuff since it's just not my cup of tea, I'd like to at least do most of the stage Emblems eventually. Probably not all A-Ranks...actually definitely not all A-Ranks, but hey!

This exactly how I feel watching this video lol oh well still considered one of the most beloved sonic games in the series LOL I also don’t understand the SA1 wank because I’ve played it and didn’t enjoy it nearly as much as SA2z

@@TheGoldenBolt Sonic Adventure 2 is actually quite forgiving with A ranks. Especially if you destroy the gold beetle in every level they appear in.

@@paulbell3682 Destroy the what?

@@ayrtonjoga Gold G.U.N beetles.

SA2 has the best homing attack. Nuff said.

@@paulbell3682 I definitely disagree, it’s slow and clunky. I need to wait at least a second or two from hitting an enemy before I can homing attack again (specifically needs to be the peak of the bounce) or sonic just shoots off in a random direction and falls off the magically floating level, and even when it’s timed properly sonic sometimes doesn’t curl up into a ball so I take damage, and even more often I homing attack and enemy and sonic uncurls right before I hit them and I take damage. I got the feel for it after Green Forest but it doesn’t feel good, I need to wait until I normally would homing attack and then pause for another second. It’s slower and less smooth than SA1’s great homing attack, and lacks the accuracy and speed of the boost homing attacks. I think they slowed it down to make sonic look cooler or just to drag out the gameplay.

@@justanotheryoutubechannel The homing attack is way slower in SA1.

@@paulbell3682 The actual movement is slower, the speed moving through the air and the bounce up, but the speed you can homing attack again is faster, in SA1 there’s just a half second before you can homing attack again, SA2 has way more delay.

If you're a big fan of SA2's hunting, there are speedrunning categories where you play individual stages a bunch of times to test overall knowledge, or the centurion categories which have you play 100 stages for rouge or knuckles respectively. They're very fun to run with an extremely high skill ceiling.

No

>you never have to worry about randomly deaths from the homing attack or lightspeed dash In this game you have the greatest probability of dying by falling into a bottomless pit, either just because or due to broken auto aiming of a homing attack.

@@kuklama0706 nah, that shit happens WAY more often in sonic heroes

I will say to clarify, my issue isn't exactly that SA2 has more linear level design, it's that the level design/mechanics also feel a bit lacking to me in conjunction with the more linear approach! I totally get the intent of following fan response and pushing towards a thrilling, repayable roller-coaster of sorts - I just think that there aren't that many levels that are fun for me even after replaying them several times to try for higher ranks, doing all (or almost all) the missions, et cetera. Even still I wouldn't expect folks to agree with that of course, that's just the conclusion I sadly came to! Whatever the case, I'm glad you felt I brought something new to the fold! I've always hesitated with a game like this one, because I wanted to add something to the discussion; enough folks just slam it without regard, and if I can't find a way to add something or lift the game up in some way with historical context or a more positive mindset (or whatever it might be), I wouldn't wanna do it. If I succeeded there, I'm genuinely thrilled.

Hey William! I don't talk about it often because it usually doesn't matter, but I've done my share of coding work for game projects in the past, and have a degree in the field! The games I was working on were mostly hobbyist projects, but I've had to make my fair share of last minute adjustments on projects that completely threw everything in the air, so trust me when I say I understand that struggle even at a much much smaller/lower stakes level; actually now that I think about it, one way back in high school was exactly this kind of major UI adjustment that I stayed up overnight to fix, in a braindead "what were WE thinking?" moment lol. There are times in videos where I bend over backwards to make it clear that I'm still considering the stuff I've said earlier, and there are other times where I trust the audience understands that, even if it means I get one or two comments that poke at it! Those sorts of suggestions are basic not necessarily in design but a basic courtesy in my criticism - it's easier to say something is bad or subpar, but not many folks give substantive suggestions (let alone ones that consider historical context!). That's a respect I generally try to give to those that created whatever art I'm critiquing - in the moment of production, it's not always viable, but if I can find an opportunity to further raise positively-focused discussion, I'll do so - debatable armchairing be damned. For example, it'd be an unfair suggestion to ask for a homing attack reticle this early, that took years to become an idea and I wouldn't have even realized at first that it was a godsend when it came to be in 2008 I believe; it would be an _incredibly_ fair suggestion (and it's another one I cut from the script to try and keep the pace up, same with the constant hedging I'd have to do every few sentences to hammer in stuff like the small team size) to suggest that the homing attack be properly explained in a tutorial box, through organic gameplay in a safe environment, or even just in the manual of either version. The mech suggestion was an off-script thing I threw in just to give an alternative idea than "rush the same idea you had last time and were explicitly aiming to flesh out from day 0 of production." It wasn't intended to be a "what were they thinking??" - it's just some extra food for thought in a game absolutely packed full of one-and-done gimmicks that clearly highlighted the team's penchant for experimenting. As for the button mapping suggestion, that's from my experience not some game-changer on a turn of the Millennium game on a 4 face button controller, and the "for some reason" there is a direct line to producer Yuji Naka's insistence even to this day with Balan Wonderworld that game controls should be barebones simple! It's not an issue of direct production struggles or focus testing or anything of the sort, that one is a clear as day upper management decision that actively hampers the game's ceiling. _That's_ the reason for the "for some reason," aside, because it was irrespective of the team's size. The rest of it comes down to me hoping - and I promise I don't say this as a knock on you here! - that folks would understand just how constantly I'm stepping over myself to give viewers the ability to take or leave whatever parts they want from the video. Quite literally any critique I have has this easy excuse or handwave explanation, and that's by design! I just didn't want to have to say it every paragraph, because I've gotten flak in the past for doing exactly that and sounding wishy-washy. It's all give and take, so it's more fulfilling to me if I just trust folks more on it!

@@TheGoldenBolt I appreciate your response. I think that if speculating on what lessons can be mined from the Sonic Adventures and trying to build something new is very positive, but putting that in a video framed as a deep dive of taking the game on its own terms muddies that. Also I'm glad to hear that you have some programming chops, I used to teach it and I feel it's a rewarding addition to many peoples lives. However, while adding in major systems after the fact is the common story for beginners learning about workflow, making the game more complex from day one would still complicate it in time, resources, and work to the scale I was suggesting; applying this hypothetical game design scenario in hindsight as a handwave still feels really disrespectful to the work of a team under incredible amounts of stress; and I am just one of the many people you seem to suggest you understand will be coming to your video because of the subject matter rather than any prior history or shared trust with you. At face value, it hit a huge pet peeve of mine, not because I think you are intending to suggest anything along the lines of "the game could have been better if they took things in this totally different direction which I personally prefer," but I think taken in the state of game design discussion as it is it either stands as a subjective and personal tangent that doesn't announce itself as such, or with broader context it seems like another addition to game design discourse where critics present the way they would have done it as already a better idea as it sits on paper. Or, in this case not even that, as it was off-script. I don't think speculative game design and critical analysis belong together- they each muddy the other's intentions, and suggesting that a new and unproven iteration is what could have been while analyzing what became a beloved classic to many is the burning definition of armchair game design. I don't think you intended to be disrespectful or presumptuous and do think you were trying to be constructive, or positive as you put it, but even after reading your explanation here I feel like that soil stands to grow more kudzu than crops. I don't mean to labor the point, just wanted to make sure with how much obvious care you gave to clarifying yourself I should do the same. I do mean the positive things I have to say about the video, by the way, and I hope you don't think my one festering complaint means I'm not going to subscribe. Obviously I have a lot of baggage with the issue itself, and you definitely created a space here where I felt like it would be safe to vent that and have a productive chat about it- and well, look at us!

I'm a little late on the pick-up here, but no, that's absolutely a fair shake! The vibe I tend to go for shifts around a little bit with every project between a pure historical perspective, a straight-up analysis, just me saying my own dumb opinions without trying to do all the research ahead of time, etc., so I can only agree that it can get muddy. I'll have to keep a better eye on that in the future, although I'll fully admit that knowing me, I'm probably a bit more likely to qualify it better and in a separate, face value/take it or leave it aside rather than cut it entirely. (Your input is a lot more fun to read and engage with than getting accused of being too negative all the time on projects where I'm explicitly trying to raise a game up!) I've used this sort of suggestion for improvement with my Ratchet projects in the past (and even in the SA1 video) as a sort of teaser for future projects too, covering sequels that made those exact sorts of changes. Usually if I do that it's either to build a series theme or just a fun sort of Cunningham's Law poke, so folks can take a W correcting me in the comments - but SA2's very much a unique case in that the mech stuff never came back! It's a lot more to armchair in that manner than one of the other things I said in this video (that I totally will stand by), when I mention the Treasure Hunting stages' verticality and the simultaneous lack of a free-look option. At least with that one, it relates to actual meat on the bone - not to mention it was a pretty commonly established feature in 3D platformers from day one, even before Adventure 1 had started production!

Idk if you've seen it, but he has one on this channel, it's pretty much the first video on his home page and it covers all the Sonic games from adventure to 06