@Uru-petrol nonsense... it has merit in a world without conversion losses. Now, it may get to a point technologically where using an electric motor becomes more efficient, but this has been done a lot and it's never really shown itself to be practical. Basically, this has been tried and we're just not at the point that we need to be technologically.
Uru-petrol i never said the future wasnt electric lol.. i said this has been tried on ICEs before and its not near as efficient as conventional means of forced induction. With advances in technology this could become practical but its not currently
hegh More parts means more maintenance, less durability and more energy to make the pieces. forced induction seems outdated when there are engines that do not need it.
this is absolutely awesome, you can actually change the car modding and manufacturing scene FOREVER! if you are planning on launching something like a kickstarter count me in!
When dealing with DC circuits, most people would not have thought about eddy currents but of course they have to be considered because of the rise and fall created by the commutator. Happy to have found your channel!
It's not all about boost pressure, but instead about boost pressure at a given flow rate. Since this turbo is designed to feed a 14l engine it has to move a lot of volume. If you use a smaller turbo you will get the same pressure with much less power. Just pretend you are trying to feed a 2.8l engine. It would take 7 times less volume at a given rpm to achieve a given pressure.
@@aaronhumphrey2009 it's not really critical if your turbo is too big you can run a wastegate on the intake side. I was running a 1900hp v-15 vortech with a wastegate for 700-1500hp with no issues. If you have the parts just use it...
I’ve used brushless outrunners in a few RC projects over the years such as drones and they still impress me today with the amount of power they have for their size.
About 6months ago I told a friend who been a mechanic that this exact project would be nice.. He proceeded to explain why it was a dumb idea since I supposedly did not understand how a turbocharger worked.. Thanks man, you proved me right!! Maybe I'll try it in my next car :P
Thank you , thank you O brother of mine. Thank you for all of those days and nights spent just in the mathematics alone. Sir , what ever drove you to take the time to put this out there , I thank :) Only because the way I think and process things . One 1/4 of your video just gave me a missing piece to my big puzzle . God bless bro see you on the flip side keep on keeping on!
Very interesting. I'll admit, I was skeptical at first but you've done your homework and know what you're doing. Props to you for that. Subscribed and interested to see more
DO NOT mount the motors in the intake air stream! If anything comes unmounted, it will be sucked into your fan, destroying blades and/or your entire charger! I would tap off a bit of the outflow and rout it back to your motors. BTW: A turbocharger driven by an external motor is not a turbocharger, it is a supercharger :)
electric superchargers have existed for decades, and they don't work worth a fuck. too much lost energy through all the conversions. Turning heat into torque then to electricity back to torque and heat just to rotate the turbo that would have already been spinning from the parasite nature of how they are designed. Turbo's harvest the wasted heat an engine produces. External drive is less efficient now matter how you slice it.
Turbo chargers don't harvest heat, and they don't run off of heat. They run off of exhaust gas flow! Set one on a work bench and heat it up with a torch and it won't turn at all.
Diesel Ramcharger Your entire comment did not have a single true thing about turbos in it... A proper electric turbo like in the audi rs8 clubsport prototype is revolutionary. Hybrid systems using electrical power have long shown their dominance over the conventional drivetrain.
"Still expanding" exhaust gas is kind of an important turbo charging concept. They are in part run by energy that would otherwise be wasted - not just the pumping action of the engine.
This is the future. Brushless motors and motor speed controller are getting better and better every day. Only down side is where to mount a capacitor system that can supply enough power without straining the alternator and adding too much weight. And the motor speed controller would have to communicate with ECM that way the right amount of boost is added based on engine sensors, transmissions sensors ,abs, and stability control systems. This could be the future for combustion engines before full time electric vehicles take over completely. Good video man.
As a rough estimate, about 0.4 cubic meters per second, based on turbo maps from similar turbochargers. At full speed it should produce about 1.5 cubic meters per second.
Amazing project!!! Really hoping to see another update!!! This is a similar project to what I want to do, and it’s very interesting to see one that actually produces a little boost!
We did a direct drive coupling ET. The bigger the engine the bigger the gains. Love you belt drive, it quiet and good power figures. The best we got was 0.2 bar with 14volt from alternator and 100amps demand. Power gains was between 25% up to 40%. Torque figure not horse power. We ran out of air on the new mustang V8 engine so we increased the turbo compressor side with good result. Well done great project. Madi electric Turbo still in the game.
I think some of the points are a bit off, you're free flowing with a reduced nozzle and the result is some static pressure buildup in that cone, but the psi you're getting is less than it would probably make when attached to an intake since that would result in the air being forced in a confined space and therefore less flow. I would measure the maximum pressure you can achieve by choking down the exhaust (progressively until your motor can't keep up with the required power) and you'd also need to measure the flow at various boost levels - you can calculate how much an engine would flow at various rpms (displacement/2 x rpm) and cross reference your chart with that to find what boost you can actually produce, the more rpms on the engine the less boost you'll see but more flow.
The power required depends air flow times pressure rise, so maximum power occurs at some intermediate point between zero flow and maximum flow. Also if you choke off the outlet too much you will likely get into the surge region which is not good. The outlet of a compressor should not normally be throttled. Bear in mind too that engines are hungry for air and benefit from unrestricted air flow. This is why performance tuning of engines often does fancy things to the air intake system to get better flow.
if it's unrestricted then the boost is zero, the compressor flow has to be more than the cfm intake of the engine to build an excess of air and that's the pressure differential, otherwise you just achieve 100%VE at most.
You have it completely backwards. In a "closed" intake, there wouldn't be MORE resistance than atmospheric pressure, there is less. Intake valves create vacuum. As soon as you floor it, the motor would die because this setup could never push the volume of air needed to keep it running. Even if you had a strong enough electric motor to do it, the power required would totally negate any benefit the turbo provided. This is physics 101.
Love the high-speed shot. I used to throw snowballs into the exhaust stream of an F-15 fighter on the engine run pad. Those were some powerful engines. The snowballs just disappeared. Good times.
An interesting and easy way to calculate copper loss and arrive at a close approximation of the mechanical power for that motor. I tend to do it in a more difficult way (calculate percentages and such) I learned something, thank you!
CME you do realize that won't effect drive wheel power right?? Like sure you'll give the power plant (fuel engine) more zest but it won't effect the drive (electric) motor(s). They will receive the same ammount of power and not faster either lol. You won't accomplish anything by slapping a turbo on a hybrid vehicle unless it's direct drive which there really aren't any types of direct drive setups. Almost every hybrid has got a battery bank and capacitors and other stuff inline to regulate power management.
Johnny Cline Umm sir.The smart car is directly powered by a turbocharged 0.8l gas engine. It could work,since engine displacement is so small.But it is not efficient to use electric turbochargers.Maybe stick a few solar panels up on the roof. P.S. The real deal for adding engine power easily is HHO gas.I ran one of those electrolysis chambers on car that was destined for junkyard,and it felt like adding atleast 30hp.Althrough detonations are way too strong for regular gas engine,so it developed rod knock in less than 10 min.
Johnny Cline i fitted an e turbo prototype on my ct200h hybrid, and it works. It would take lots of ecu modification to get it running properly. As of now, it only works when the pedal is floored because the ecu doesnt limit power when its at max. I wired the motor to a small vfd running off the 550V battery. It should peak at 20kW and gets the car to 312bhp. I scrapped the system because it completely trashed the gearbox. It had to suffer from three times the design load.
drkastenbrot well what would you expect. General hybrids were not meant to modified due to the mass complications that arise from improper or cheaply executed mods. If you guys want to make a hot rod follow the design concept of a modern GP locomotive. We build a haha truck that uses the same principles minus a shit ton of batteries and it's got an insane ammount of torque. Not much speed to it as it's set up to hop rocks but out on the flats i bet you won't find anything that can touch it. There's just so much power at each wheel lol.
after that rant you gave, Johnny, i wouldn't listen to a fuckin word you had to say. lmao. You show a blatant lack of basic reading->comprehension, and an abundance of thinking about things off the topic. The BEST two options would be showing humility, or just leaving.
IIRC turbochargers have bearings designed to be always lubricated by a flow of engine oil, and they tend to get damaged rapidly if the engine fails to deliver proper oil pressure. Not sure how this relates to your build though.
Considering the lower amount of power, short duration, and the fact that there are no hot exhaust gasses heating the compressor side, I don't think he destroyed this one :p
From what i understand there are sealed bearing turbos. How they work ive no clue. But suposedly they do. Because ive heard of people installing turbos and specifically talking about how nice it was to not haf to plumb in oil
how much pressure could it generate and how loud is it? this just wonder if i could build an air compressor with a small turbo and a bl/dc motor wich runs much more quiet than the piston based compressors out there!
Make a jet engine, add a tube so the compressor blows down the middle, allow air to enter next to the nozzle, add fuel and flames If it doesn't hae the power to drive the car, it would be an awesome weed killer
Actually, it's not heat, but pressure that powers turbos. The problem with that set up, though, is that it causes back pressure on the entire system, it requires the motor to run at lower compression, (at lower engine rpm) the motor doesn't produce enough pressure to drive the turbos impeller effectively (spool up time), and normal turbos run all the time, but are only really needed during hard acceleration. Oh, and the plumbing can be a mess! Using a clutch activated, high output alternator to charge large capacitors during slower driving, could be used to power an electric turbo for the 5 to 10 second bursts that it's actually needed and the entire system would be a lot more efficient. Unfortunately, there is still a ton of issues that need to be sorted out first.
You're wrong about low compression. They usually use low compression pistons to minimize possibility of detonation, but all you have to do to avoid detotation is keep manifold pressure within manufacturer's limits. Have a turbo on a 9.7:1 Lycoming. Works fine, everything went to overhaul times with, no burned pistons or blown heads. "turbos needed only during hard acceleration." Utterly false. In a turbo normalized aircraft application, the turbo is used only at altitude, and most of the time spent at altitude is cruise. The higher you cruise the harder the turbo will be expected to work. You must be an infantry type. If you learn by youtube, go to greg's airplanes and automobiles and watch his vid on WWII turbocharging and supercharging. btw, electric turbo charger is an idiot misnomer. The thing does not have a turbine. It's a type of electrically driven supercharger.
Im sure someone has said it before me, but this would be a good way to avoid turbo lag, especially for smaller everyday vehicles that can be tricky to drive for inexperienced drivers. If you added some sort of clutch mechanism perhaps you could even disconnect the electric motor once the engine produces enough exhaust gases to drive the turbo at sufficient speeds. This would give you a nice power curve and a really nice driving car Great project!
TMM exactly. He is having trouble achieving the aimed results with a massive turbo intended for a massive engine with tiny motors. If he used a smaller turbo from a smaller engine he'd have much more relative and accurate results as the tests would be within the efficiency range of the compressor maps.
+bleachinuri Its not that its old (the designs haven't changed much at all), its that its massive compared to a typical car turbo. Like he said, 150+ HP just to drive the compressor, a lot of cars don't even have 150 HP... A small turbo would have a different outcome (although you still probably want 20 HP at the minimum even for a tiny little engine to get 5 PSI boost). Age had almost nothing to do with its efficiency, the "new" ones are almost identical in design unless you are talking about the state of the art 3d laser printed titanium variable vane turbocharger found in the $1+ million dollar Koenigsegg ONE, but that's a pretty big exception... The basic shape and design of turbos and turbines have been around for a super long time (the jet engine we use in our small stealth bombers have almost identical turbine blades, though smaller because its a smaller engine. You can in fact turn a turbocharger into a jet engine if you were wondering, its pretty cool)
Jake Garrett no I work on Cummins engines for a living have for 30 years, that's an old turbo, and it's an inefficient design, and yes diesels use variable nozzle turbos these days, some with exotic metals in them
So how does that material change his results? If we made it out of gold/platinum/titanium or possibly even cardboard, it wouldn't make a difference, its not running hot like a real turbocharger. They have been snail shaped geometer for a super long time, and for a fixed output (like an electric motor at max, as opposed to an rpm and volume changing combustion engine), then there is absolutely no benefit to having a variable turbocharger, and engineer would simply size it for that exact power and flow output. He is using the wrong size turbo, plain and simple. That's my point, its a huge turbo/super to be trying to run electric. The biggest changes are precision and balancing of impellers, better oil systems, improved waste gates, and variable (not needed for this application). The only thing that would really change it is if its super wavy and unfinished/rough pathway on the inside, but surely they sandblast these at least back then. Geometry changes are more to do with how you want your compressor mapping.
Doctorbass here! Hi Tesla500, That is really interesting test. in fact i built a system for a friend project with a 50kW Zero motor ( the 75-7R) and 28s cells at 650A. When we properly tuned the gear ratio between the impeller of the C38/71 modified supercharger and the motor and used the max power at 4000rpm at the motor and 90000rpm at the blower shaft, we acheived 30PSI with alot of flow!!! in fact the flow was so intense than all tiles of the floor in my garage flew in the air!!!!!
Doctorbass! I'm a big fan o your work! That sounds like a very interesting project you did with your friend! Do you have any more info on the project, any links or anything? Did your friend fit the supercharger to an internal combustion engine and get it on a dyno?
Realistically to hit the full ~ 50 PSI @ ~ 1000 - 1200 CFM a turbocharger like that could push you would need about 170 - 200 HP which when scavenging energy off the high temp high volume exhaust of large 14 liter 400+ HP diesel is possible given the overall engine efficiency gains given by the added boost cancel out the added fuel and power consumption of pushing the exhaust against such a load.
@@vitalliy5559 There's medications that make concerns like that a lot less 'concerning'. Maybe you should look into them with a much interest as you do casual non formal text punctuation.
This is very similar to how the current year Formula 1 engine turbochargers work. Mercedes has a nice visual of how they create theirs in this video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-l2_eTLCz_3I.html Glad to see you tinkering around and posting videos again!
220hp @ 70k rpm actually sound legit. Since in a gasoline engine e.g 2.3L I4 you will need it to be pretty modified and have good hp N/A to get some boost out of that :) Great video btw, going to subscribe now :D
Maybe you should just mount a gasoline powered leaf blower in your truck with a 4inch piece of dryer outlet hose hooked up to your intake. All joking aside it would probably work better than ANY electronic blower.
@@dispatchts907 the only production car I know of that uses an electric blower is Volkswagen and I believe they use the electric blower to spin up belt driven turbo chargers. I've seen quite a few dyno tests with these Electric gadgets and they never seem to make any power.
A 6KW electric compressor done right, should work assuming you powered it separately. But why would you when you can get “free” power from the exhaust. In a hybrid car this could seem feasible for short bursts of power. Although maybe the power would be better off being used to propel the car. IDK, but I don’t think this has been experimented enough yet, so I applaud him for experimenting.
Andrew Delashaw Usually but most superchargers are self contained. With the heat of the exhaust turbine removed, the burning up a bearing is much more difficult.
Its interesting to realize how inefficient even an "efficient" diesel engine is considering there is 200HP worth of waste energy in the exhaust to drive the turbine of this turbo! Imagine if we could harness 100% of the energy in a given amount of diesel fuel!
This type of thing is used in hyper cars and formula1 racing. It’s called something like a precharger or electronic boost assist. They use it to build boost before the exhaust output is enough to build boost off the engine.
What if you run an air duct from the inlet side of turbo to the back end of the electric motor to draw the heat and air through the motor and out the nozzle?
Errr... engine power is NOT all about boost. Its mass air flow ;) A large turbo can make more power with less boost due to many other factors too such as a less restrictive exhaust housing etc..
Leroy Baker clearly you nothing about how engines work... pressure is a sign of restriction.. more air more power and that can be acheived with low boost and a large turbo
Jarryn Smith not really the intake manifold and intake runners in the head don't change. So it's still 7 psi manifold absolute pressure versus 14 psi. 14psi will make more power. Bigger turbos help at higher rpm. Boost pressure is measured in the manifold so if all you change is the turbo it will make the same power at the same boost level. You are right that a big turbo at 7 psi might flow more cfm than a small turbo at 14 psi. All that goes out the window once mounted to an engine.
Lach I'm not sure if your talking to me or not. All im saying is for example a 62mm turbo at 14psi and a 78mm at 14psi on the same engine just swapping the turbo they are going to produce similar hp numbers. The bigger turbo might be able to carry the boost out to higher rpms but there won't be a drastic difference in Max hp as long as the smaller turbo was properly sized. People think a big turbo at 10psi will make more power than a small turbo running 20psi. Boost is measured in the manifold. If the manifold is the same size and volume for both turbos then psi is psi regardless of what turbo produces it. Yes bigger turbos can flow more air. The cylinder pressure is all that matters. 20 psi in the manifold is the same regardless of which turbo created it.
Interesting how electric motors are constantly the end goal. That turbo engine will get smoked by electric cars that don't need a turbo .Last 100 years "we'll just use an electric motor to start the engine, another spinning to generate power, clear the windshield (and some headlights) some in the doors, antenna, mirrors, seats, climate control, headlights that blink, and doors that close themselves, ..."
no one is denying that electric motors are more efficient, or convinient than gasoline engines; the reason we have electric motors powering all those auxiliary systems and a gas engine propelling the car is: 1. When cars became popular, gasoline was a more convinient source of portable energy than batteries. 2. You need a powerplant to turn gasoline into electricity; electric motors can't run on gasoline. 3. If you already have a big gasoline powerplant it is more efficient to just funnel that power directly to the wheels, instead of having a larger than necessary alternator so you can feed electricity to an electric motor. When you use batteries for your energy instead of gasoline, it then makes sense to propel the car with an electric motor. Of course all those auxiliary features are powered by electric motors in either case because it would be an engineering nightmare to do otherwise: think about trying to route hundreds of tiny driveshafts and transmissions throughout the car to feed mechanical engine power to the door locks, power windows, windshield wipers, and so on on demand; or maybe having a miniature, nitro-sized engine performing each task, each with a fuel line to the gas tank (and an even tinyer electric starter).
I’ve been trying to build something similar for quite some time now but in a DC form haven’t yet found a DC motor that would supply enough RPMs to even get up on boost if you have any suggestions that would be great
Great video, I have a Question. What is the recommended electric MOTOR (DC) for turbo application? by example, 0 to 48 volt at 40,000rpm. I'm thinking built my own electric turbo to boost 2 to 4 PSI in my engine 1.8Liter.
I do not agree with you with regards to all electric turbochargers are useless, dude THOSE THINGS ARE USED IN NEW AUDIS, it gets the turbos to rpm quick with extra power eliminating turbo lag almost completely everywhere! Back to your stuff, calibrating a fan is a precise exercise, you are turning the biggest fkin turbo I have ever seen, compared to that the motor u are using is tiny... That is wrong an inefficient for many reasons, for one with an electric supercharger you want your fan to get to full rpm as fast as possible to properly calibrate the injector and turning that is hard to do with a rediculus turbine designed to charge 14liters with enough compressed air for up to 4k rpm with air in a heavy hauler, well thats a lot of fkin air. The problem multiplies coz these kind of truck turbos are really only effective and efficient in a narrow rpm range and your 6kw motor is not even close to achieving that or even 5% of that. Rpm numbers together with power draw would also differ a lot from your measurements and boost amount would change too much in a wide range with your "setup", now add to that the slow fan speedup and with these characteristics calibrating the injector would become hard to say the least or even impossible, if you could succeed to make it work somehow what you would achieve proly is a huge turbolag that is always present. Fans are designed for specific power and rpm to be efficient and so achieving higher boost than your demonstrated setup did at 6kw would be most likely doable maybe with a quality 70mm fan even at around 2kw and easily surpassed by a quality! 90mm fan with high blade count paired with the right 4kw+ motor. for such a purpose the motor is preferable that has higher kv for the fan slightly so it only reaches optimum rpm when the engine intake is sucking properly at full throttle with steady vacuum and that way boost levels could be managed on the "top end" and at the lower end or with light loads it also could be managed with a fast early spinup to a boost level that is gradually decreasing as the engine's rpm rises at full throttle . I'm planning a mod like this for a while now, will be using a bike engine around 800cc with a 70mm ducted setup, a generator that is around 2.5kw for the 2kw-ish fan, all calibrated with "power commander 5". My engineer friend made some educated guesses and he said I could possibly get +20-30% max power and more at lower rpms, it is possible that even the combustion chamber needs to be slightly larger just like when putting on a real turbo only not by that much. It got a little long but I hope this helps you make a decision as to how to proceed, actually using your motor together with that huge turbo could be made to work on a smaller engine I think, more or less like it does in the new audis but only if it was an exhaust driven full turbo at the same time. Cheers from Hungary and good luck!!!
Ra40Rob Well, biturbo would mean that there are 2 turbines driven with exhaust gas so unless that is the case it is not a biturbo. It helps the turbo as you say, makes the lower rpms shine for sure but it has to work on full load as well as far as I know, If not than that would mean the electric motor is put on some freewheeling mechanics, honestly I dont know for sure but it wouldnt make sence to me, it would be just unnecessary(again not sure, Im just spitballing here). If they are not freewheeling then they have to work on full load too, taking over during gear changes or coming out of a corner the turbo can spin up quick for example trying to provide a more steady boost in the entire range. So its a turbo with a capable helper, someone to lean on other than just some exhausted gases, those are lame. :D:D
Super cool project. Long time subscriber yet this didnt come up in my subs, i found this by searching and was pleased to see you had a video on it. That huge turbo is way out of its efficiency range at those RPM's so even though its only making 1.7psi its still a huuuuge amount of air. Would love to see it done on a smaller turbo. 160amps you say at 60v? Thats a lot of lipo batteries needed to make this work in a car...damn...Thats what I was planning.
