Two DBD veterans discuss the state of the game... 

**Just like with any other guest,** please keep any comments respectful! I tried my best not to interrupt or talk over my guest but sometimes I struggled because I could not see his webcam directly (my screen had background gameplay). If you find the background gameplay distracting, you can watch this entire debate on Tru3's channel without it. Just a reminder: Some people have pointed out that during this debate we often dismissed certain topics that are important to newer players and that's 100% correct. Maybe in the future we can have a different discussion that includes players with different levels of experience so we get to see more different points of view!

socrates and plato:

I forgot otz was in Spain and thought he discussed DBD at 5 AM for 2 hours

Good chat as always man 😀

I really hope otz and scott do one of these But they talk about DBD for 5 minutes and then go on A 2 hour tangent about the Elden Ring DLC.

Hello True , this is otz 😊

I think a big part about altruism perks and them sucking is a splinter issue regarding how BHVR handles gimmick perks like Teamwork and Boon perks for survivors. For some reason BHVR comes up with unique ideas for perks that reward unorthodox plays and then doesn’t do anything with them. Most boon perks outside of COH and ShadowStep are situational and unreliable for you and your teammates, the Teamwork perks were dead on arrival. And I hope to god the Invocations don’t follow this pattern.

Otz, please pay attention to this comment. I wanted to let you know that Lynxi, the Twins player that you recently featured on your channel, just got diagnosed with breast cancer. She’s in Norway, so healthcare is free and chances of survival should be high, but cancer is always frightening, and I was hoping you could do something for her on stream or on RU-vid, just to let her know that the DbD community has her back. Thanks in advance, Otz.

Tru3 became a lot more chill since I last watched him. Very nice to see.

didn't catch the full discussion back in the stream, glad there's a timestamp

I think regarding the 4 man slug, Dead by Daylight should implement a surrendering system similar to Identity V, where if every living member of the team agrees (through a prompt appearing on the screen), and everyone is on a hook/on the ground, everybody thats still alive is automatically sacrificed and the game ends.

On the topic of slugging and giving the survivors a way to move on to the next match quicker when being bled out, I saw a while back Scott Jund came up with a concept where survivors on the ground can press a button to greatly accelerate their bleed out timer while giving them a small increase to their crawl speed. This would give a way for survivors to go next match faster and not wait for 4 minutes, but it would also give the mechanic a bit of utility. Other conditions could be added on if needed, such as it not working in end game collapse, or not working in the exit gate themselves.

Kind of hard to understand a lot of the discussion at times, but I'll add one thing: when veterans with 10k, 20k, etc hours in the game talk about rebalancing, they're almost always talking about their personal experience with the top 5% of the playerbase. Many changes you could make that would make the game 'healthier' for 'real' gameplay would make things absolute hell for new players and even the majority of casual players. And that's where most of BHVR's money comes from.

Tru3's suffering idea would have a very positive impact. Even if you consider survivors giving up on hook, that now disadvantages survivors AND killers. And as far as Otz's thought about survivors being incentivised to leave, and not risk their own lives for others - bloodpoint (and MMR) bonus for ALL survivors, for EVERY survivor that survives. Of course if you die early and leave the lobby this can't properly be recorded, but that's a smaller issue if you ask me.

Can someone confirm or deny that if these two do the fusion dance, they would turn into the legendary hero TrueOtzdarva?

Otz: "I'll try not to talk over you this time." Tru: "I like how-" Otz: "Oh yeah! When we talked about that last time, abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz!" Tru: "Eyup..." 😅

Thank you otz i was just forced for a family roadtrip this will cover most of it ❤️🙏

Love the great conversation and how chill the conversation was this time around. Keep up the great content Otz!

This video is up earlier then usual. Also I love these types of videos because the discussions are civil agreements and disagreement which alot of the community doesn't take too lightly lol. Alot of people don't wanna hear both sides

Otz, please do this yearly 🙏 don’t wanna wait till 2027 for the next discussion

I love these talks because of how real they are. No smoke and mirrors, just pure honesty and listening while respecting eachother.

In regards to hooks disappearing on kills , I'm glad Haddonfield is getting reworked. I played Haddonfield recently, and I had no hooks in one corner of the map. Once I killed someone and used the closest hook in the middle of the street, a quarter of the map was a hook deadzone. People realised this and ended up running into the corner, meaning I had no choice but to slug for any kills.

Lol the “sorry go ahead” when he mumbled something from his water, made me howl

Regarding that Suffering mechanic. Otz suggests that people would just leave and not try to save people cuz they risk more suffering. But simply making a survivor death be worth a chunk of Suffering. So you if you can get one more escape in exchange for only one more hook, its worth it.

So glad to see a second iteration of the discussion you had a while ago. I trully hope to see more of those discussions. DBD podcast prehaps ? Could be fun to have 3 or 4 people throw ideas or opinions and hash them out. Trully think True and Otz are the best base for such a project.

Just what i need for my weekend grinding session in Warframe. Thank you Otz. Love ya

I enjoyed this immensely, even if I disagreed with some of the points made. I truly hope we see more round-table honest, open discussion content like this in the future.

If the "Suffering" mechanic Tru3 was talking about were implemented, you could have it stop counting when the gates become powered. At that point, you could have bonuses and penalties based on the amount of suffering done. I would also implement a fifth perk slot just for perks that only do stuff during the collapse for both sides.

Great discussion. It was interesting hearing about tru3’s suffering idea, I think it would make the game overall less frustrating.

I think for future discussions having a bulleted list of topics for both people to discuss would help. There were a lot of conversations where it would try to be led to one topic and bleed into another. If each person had a list of topics like we're going to discuss altruism first it would lead the conversation. Food for thought on the wiggle system. They've since been trying to add bonus objectives to specific parts of the map. Scourge hooks, Basement perks, Boon and HEX totems. I believe they wanted to make it harder for killers to get reliable uses out of the basement, scourge hooks, and forcing survivors to specific areas. While I don't think the new system is perfect it does prevent a killer forcing basement or other difficult positions for survivors. Now I'd like to see that shift in balance of power back to the killer and limit how reliably a survivor can save another. ex. flashlight, sabo. I agree with True. It feels like killer gets punished for doing what they are supposed to do. Hoping that will change.

I love the collabs with other creators! Keep them coming!

When I started playing DBD, I watched him to learn. All he would do is complain all the time about how survivors are too strong. It's been 4 or 5 years and he still does the same. That's why I watch Otz

1:18:30 that was an amazing point from Otz with regards to actually rewarding hooking. That little very realistic change alone could be a HUGE step forward for healthier gameplay. Not only would this incentivise healthier gameplay it would also make endgame more intense and actually fun rather than oh last gen popped guess imma settle for one guy and camp him on hook. The killer would actually continue and make the whole experience more risky and intense on both sides. This can maybe be balanced by still having anti camp feature in end game too depending on how strong they make Otzs original idea.

Them taking away depip is a good thing. I work a lot. So one night I get a bunch of good games and am 1 pip away from getting next rank then the very next day I get killers that tunnel me out every match or my teamate and it takes away all my hard work from the day before. Thats bullshit I dont have time to play all the time like some people

We need more videos like this, keep up good work

My defense for current wiggle system is that it actually rewards you for sabo and hook body blocking. Before you could drop the survivor, chase someone else for a brief moment and get back to downed survivor. Now you have to make a choise will you risk hooking with chanse of escape or will you change chase target and most likely let your first target get healed.

Another banging video to get me through the last few hours of work. Let's go! Much love, Otz! Stay awesome!

Compared to it's past self, it is, arguably, in the best state it has ever been. Compared to other games I play, it falls short in too many aspects. And I've seen dev teams who sometimes fuck up, but never one as disconnected from reality. It is like a Mario Party game taken as competitively as CS, with a AAA monetization, AA price tag, and no polish. And the comunity... this game's comunity is something I've never seen before, I don't know if it is die to the avarage age of it's playerbase, it being asymetrical, or both, but it is one of worst, with few exceptions, I've ever been a part of.

Im rewatching this a second time cause these two have very good voices to listen to in the background

I really love this long form video. So much entertainment value. Thanks you two

Love this kind of content 💪

On the topic of filters, I personally use a reshade that just makes the game brighter because like the game is too dark for me personally so it's nice being able to see better and like personally I shy away from like the "optimal" filters because like I use reshade to make the game look as nice as I believe it should look and I think behaviour really need to look into doing things like making their game brighter or similar features in order to just make the game feel nicer for your average player without the need for third party software like reshade.

15:00 i would make it that the wiggle status starts being resetted after 20 sec, but when a downed survivor was picked up even once they can, after they got put on the fround, start a search action that takes 25 - 30 sec which will give the surv a sharp rock and a free escape that is like decisive strike

I remember listening to the first half of this live, but fell asleep because it started at 2am for me

Crazy collab love this! Been watching you both since the start of this game!!❤❤ also otz you kept talking over him still 😂

Also a DBD veteran here (7k hrs since 09/2018). - Being nice->toxic: Playing nice often results in the survivors buttdancing in the exit gate in the end, because they feel that they were "insane". I still play more nicely (no tunneling from the beginning), but if someone is toxic, they will get what they serve. I will still capitalise on mistakes or situations (like them unhooking right next to me before I could leave, or bodyblocking after getting unhooked) because I am not dumb. - MMR: My main frustration with MMR is that it only counts escapes and kills. As someone who usually does a lot, loops the killer a ton only to die in the end while the others escape, the game always thinks I am bad, because I don't escape. Which results in the game matching me with bad teammates, making SoloQ miserable (which is why I only play at least Duo nowadays.) - "bad teammates": I think the 10s basekit BT are bad, because most survivors don't know how to safely do a save anymore. I see so many farms and unhooks when I'm still near, so that I usually don't have another choice but to tunnel. That has to get better again, because it loses you games. I also limit myself a bit. I still want to do well, but I don't really care about "winning" anymore. My favourite build has Object in it for 2 years and I love it, even though it betrays me in situations I don't want. - Filters: I use slight filters to help me see on Autoheaven (only a bit of gamma and a tiny bit of more saturation). I have tried all in-game options, but nothing really helped. I don't know if it's my eyes or my monitor, but I can't see sh*t on these maps. Claudette? Invisible. Hag, GF, Pig? Invisible. All other survivors/Killers with remotely "dark" clothing? Invisible. It's very frustrating to get called a cheater for using allowed stuff which only negates a disadvantage you have. - Hooks vs Kills: I think the game should make it more effective to get 12 hooks ideally, which would also make tunneling less attractive if done right (i.e. by not removing a hookstate if that survivor is hooked in sucsession. you could still hook them to get pressure, but they are still on their first hook). It is more skillfull to get a 4k without tunneling and with 12 hooks (as it is more difficult), than getting a 4k with tunneling and camping. Hooks should count towards MMR as well and not only kills. (RIP me who gets 8 hooks and then the last gen pops and they get adrenaline...) As a scientist, I can only say that bad data gives bad results. So improving data to make the game better is a good idea. - DS: The new animation only makes it about 4s now instead of 5s, but we don't know if this is going to stay like this. I don't know if I like the change or not. In the past I basically had to use DS, because there was no way out of the basement if you did not have SB or the unhooker had no BT (which is still the case btw, but not as bad). I am glad it is still inactive during EGC, which was THE most op sh*t about that perk imo. I got so many free escapes with it, it's insane. But I do think that a little higher stun duration is good as killers will think twice again before tunneling you. That being said, this might bring back the DS/UB meta we had before the nerf now with the addition of Plottwist. In the past this never bothered me, but with Plottwist, this will probably get spicy. -Ultimate Weapon: "Isn't it the whole point of survivor being chased?" That depends on the MMR and playstyle of the survivor. I like to do everything (also the reason why I favour Object to Distortion), but 2 of my friends are more the stealthy type and use Distortion. One of them also Calm Spirit because he's not good at looping. For people like him, getting chased, means to be dead first. He's also a more casual player. I think the main frustration with UW for him was that he cannot hide or react to counter the perk. For BBQ you can go into a locker, for PR/DMS you let go of the gen before the hook etc. For UW you have to GUESS when the killer can activate it and there is no reaction time because you scream at the moment you enter the TR. Initially you could not even hide in a locker to avoid it. UW also helps to proxy camp a LOT, especially after the Grim Embrace buff, because killers had a cue when they left the "camping circle" of 16m. They would just sit there with UW active and nobody could go for the save because you would scream the second you got too close. My main problem with the perk was (and still is) that you could scream at 29s of its activation and be still blind for 30s only to scream again, because the cd was already over. It was very annoying. I think they only needed to make the cd longer and make the perlk similar like DMS, where the max value is 30s, but it is shorter if you enter the TR later. BTW: You still get blinded. - Distortion: Eh..... I think it is unhealthy for ONE reason: Hiding yourself makes the other survivors (who don't have the perk) more of a target. I notice that quite often in my group with 2 Distortion players. They both have 0 hooks while the random and me both have 2. I think the perk should only start with 1 token (for the initial Lethal Pursuer or other Aura reading and to give the kilelr the chance to notice it) and every 15s (or 20s) in chase you recover 1 token up to 3 tokens max. This way players have to interact with the killer to get a bit of stealth in return. I made a whole post about Distortion and Object being different sides of the same coin (pros and cons etc as well) in the forum, so if you would like the link, I can provide it to you. -Adrenaline: I already saw survivors 99ing gens, then unhook and then finish it to give the person on the hook adrenaline. I think it would have been better to make it a heal over time like the syringe but a bit faster and then don't give the sprint boost unless you heal up from the ground or are healthy. -Skill expression: Since they removed Sky Billy and Hug-tech, Lightburn other stuff? Yeah. I just hope Wesker gets spared this nonsense. Have a nice day :D

I’ll have to check to see if I still have the video, but I remember a game on Gideon a few months ago where I had two hooks on the bottom floor in opposite corners. One hook was below the meat chute and the other was in the corner near the bathroom and basement.

Maybe make it so that when the survivor is dropped next to a hook that is up his wiggle bar wont regress, but if he is dropped near a broken hook his wiggle bar starts regressing, this counters the crazy saboplay but makes it so the killer doesnt have to wait to pickup after dropping, he either hooks or gives up and slugs which he would and could do anyways.

20:17 There have been so many games where I wish there was an option to 'unalive' on the ground, purely because I was being slugged while the killer forced a 4K. Maybe if there was an option if only one survivor is standing, and they're not in a chase, that you can rapidly accelerate your bleedout, because on occasion you do get those sweaty killers who don't want the hatch to spawn. (Ironically, in two recent cases, it let me crawl to the hatch and escape instead). Slugging is a strategy that killers do sometimes need to employ, such as to prioritize other targets better, or due to survivors being set up with a multi-layered rescue plan. The issue comes when Killers use slugging for toxic behavior, notably the refusal to allow hatch to spawn, or to BM forcing said player to wait four minutes to bleedout before getting on to the next match.

Please invite more guests to these discussions in the future! I think a panel of 4-5 people would be more constructive and would offer more diverse perspectives. It would've been cool to see people like Hens, ScottJund, etc. involved in this discussion.

I love how respectful of eachother you are even when disagreeing!! I hate watching debates that are one sided or have an undertone of dislike between the two parties. Love the constructive conversation! More in the future would be great ❤❤

Random thought in regards to slugging. What if the wiggle bar regresses only if a survivor on the floor starts healing. So tye closer they are to pickup the bar is mostly empty. Flipflop cancels that out to keep it relevant to what it does

Dbd are like feet pics good somtimes but crusty other times

Possible idea for the wiggle progress issue. How about wiggle progress can regress as you progress self pick-up? That way, survivors have to choose between wiggling off or getting easily picked up

This is awesome! I was watching Tru3 actual years before b4 seeing Otz. Now seeing them together is just great! Love them both

I'm excited to see this. I love true and otz and he used to be one of my favorite fighting game players. Hoping it's a good time for everybody

I think its pretty difficult maybe even impossible to make sure everything has a "counterplay" because no matter what it would always favor one side, for example when tru3talent and Otz were talking about the wiggle bar going back to the old system which Tru3 seemed to like more than the new one, yes it makes it where killers can counter the hook sabo but then what can survivors realistically do after thatt? You already have 2 survivors not doing anything since one is on the killers shoulders and the other has to sabo the hook so if the killer was able to put them down and reset the wiggle timer then all the killer has to do is drop, go hit the other survivor and possibly even down them and then go back to the first slugged survivor. Plus there's a bunch of other situations that could happen but realistically no matter what one side is gonna fail.

Hey Otz an unrelated question but is there a VOD of your first Bloodborne playthrough somewhere?

OOOOOOOOOOTZ! please play and upload more content with tru3! i really enjoy watching you guys, but I always miss his lifestream.

One thing I never see spoken about is exit gates, 99ing exit gates feels so so strong imo. they should regress if not touched for a while, being able to stall and 1 tick a gate feels so harsh sometimes.

Counter to slugging/bleedout would be the opposite of the hookcamping mechanic. The further the killer is away from you chasing other survivors (lets say 24 meters), the more the wigglemeter would fill up until the killer picks you up again. As soon as the killer dropped you, your wiggle meter would then need to regress again though. You could even argue that after a certain amount of time, youd be able to up yourself, once that "the killer is far away and just left me" condition would be finished (perhaps even combine that with "the killer chases another survivor for x amount of time until you may get up). But the entire times of regeneration and wiggling et al would need to become altered. But it would solve the problem of slugging as well as get rid of the lack of counterplay against sabo. It would certainly buff survivor interaction, but also allow counterplay from the killers. It truely is a complicated dilemma -> because that would encourage camping downed survivors! AAAAH

I think an interesting change to Distortion would be to make it based on the number of seconds your aura is read rather than the number of instances your aura is read. That way stronger perks with longer lasting aura reading burns through Distortion's charges more than weaker, briefer perks.

shout out to you both, love these yapping sessions

I feel regarding the filter thing, I’m not really sure how much advantage it really gives you changing them, but my biggest thing is so the game isn’t so damn dark. Advantage wise? I guess more visibility? I wouldn’t know anything other than that, but the game is too dark.

TRUE !!! Havent seen the lad in ages

The only thing about these conversations is they are veryyyyyyy geared toward high level players with thousands of hours. I can’t remember the last time that I ran across FTP+buckle up. So they are talking about nerfing some of the only strong survivor perks because of niche top 10% survivors. These people forget what it’s like to play with normal players and what normal DBD players need against these strong killers.

I enjoy their conversations about DBD. I'm glad they decided to do this again. Both had good points.

For anti-slugging would add something like once you’re downed, it tells you to push secondary action key and if all the players are slug, and they all hitting the key, it’ll kill-swhich the round. My thinking being that each individual player would have to be downed for a period of time, and then have to hold or just press your secondary action key and once all other players have done that it would end the round all at once.

You can see the physical look of pain in Otz's face when Tru was hovering around the argument that a 3v1 is only what's fair and manageable for a killer.

Genuinely so many people that play DBD need to stop using the term counterplay as if there aren’t 100 scenarios where there’s no counterplay everyone is fine with. Sometimes, you just get a good result, there doesn’t need to always be an obvious counterplay. Some people genuinely think baiting the dead hard doesn’t count as a counter play etc.

This needs to be a series, i feel like im watching a professional podcast. It would be cool to see otz talk about this stuff with other creators

On the topic evaluating game performance, I feel like measuring Hooks or Kills on their own is not a good way of determining killer or survivor performance. The game has so many factors and complications. Some killers win often with just 4 hooks after losing a lot of Gens. Others win by applying constant pressure through a tight match. Others, not letting the survivors get going in the first place. An idea I just had was a sort of "chess eval bar" type system where throughout the game, accounting for whos in chase and not, how many gens are currently done, how close the survivors are to dying, and other factors you can basically get a timeline of "how well" the survivors and killer were doing. If its a long game where the 3 survivors escaped but with 1 hook left, the evaluation would still show the killer maintainted high pressure and did a good job keeping survivors off gens. If all the survivors died, but it was only because of a single mistake near the end, they wouldn't get punished as badly because they were ahead for a majority of the match. This helps create cleaner data, because it accounts for the time it takes for setup killers to get going, and shows how well pressure killers are at keeping survivors down. Just spitballing here, would love to hear other peoples ideas!

Let’s go Choy

I think one new mechanic that would make a lot of sense with the basekit no way out, or this suffering thing, and also would make sense in dbd in general because of the lore would be if the entity got stronger the more hooks you have, so like, you would have after some time, idk, some basekit crowd control, no way out, etc. The entity would help the killer because now it is stronger and it hungers for more, what do you guys think?

Otz: And now to introduce our surprise guest, ScottJund.

with the whole grades system, i hit iri1 surv in my first full "season", only 2 weeks into playing. i am considerably better now, almost 1k hours, havent bothered hitting it since. but i probably put close to double the amount of hours a week in back then. all it is is something to grind for, the more casual players or the ones that dont really care likely would have not seen iri1 if it wasnt for the coming changes

Who else learned about TrU3Ta1ent through his MKX streams in 2015? 👀

He's also a veteran of Dark Souls. God I miss old Otzdarva

I think next time you guys should have preset topics to talk about and transition to like -Thought on the new Sable /Unknown -current thoughts on game health -biggest changes u guys would like to see etc.

I haven't watched the whole video yet but how about a complement to the matchmaking that goes along with MMR. If a player (killer or survivor) uses more "meta" perk (they do have the information of which perk is most used) and if the person uses only the best perks (most commonly used) it'll match with a killer or survivors also using the most commonly used perks. It could work with points, like the more used a perk is, the more "point value" it has, and so, a survivor with like 100 points is using 4 meta perks that are very common and strong, while another with a "score" of 20 is using offmeta perks, 40 points using 1 meta perk and 3 offmeta and such. It could help with what Otz was saying at 23:20 about wanting to play nice and the other team sweating or vice-versa . For SWF, the number of points per survivor is added together and divided by the number of people playing together to get an average and then matchmake a killer with about that much "perk score" and MMR. This could increase queue time though, unless there's an option when matchmaking to "ignore perk score". It could also add another layer of balancing with making some unfun perks cost more points if they make it a "loadout point" type of system. anyway, thanks for reading my TED talk XD Edit: Maybe addons and map offering could contribute to the score too.

I can't blame Tru3 for his outward resentment towards the devs for their ignorance to streamers and other players' opinions, but it's a real shame that that incentivises the dev's to not listen to him even more. Inevitably, they won't want to gratify Tru3 by running with his ideas.

My two favorite streamer ❤❤❤

I also don't think sabotage is supposed to be counter-able after you fall for it. See it like a flashlight save, if you still want to hook the saved survivor you have to down them again, too. Just that with sabo saves, they're still on the ground. You counter sabos by seein survivors saboing and going to a different hook, or hitting them before the hook is sabotaged. If you dont manage to do that and have to drop the survivor, they count as saved and you're not meant to hook them without downing them again.

I am loving Pyramid Head. I have climbed to silver 3 in 4 hours and I have been playing for almost 6 days total. Iridescent 3 for survivor. Lots of fun and your videos really help me get better.

I don’t think I agreed with a single one of Tru3’s takes but it was a fun listen. Thanks for a good video!

Well, dbd Twitter survivors are gonna have a field day seeing tru3 here

ahh i remember the win streak drama, glad to see he’s mellowed out

My hot take along similar lines of perk/game balance is that perks should carry a worth value. For example you can limit strong perk combinations suck as For the People + Buckle up and Pain Res + Pop if each perk is worth 2 perk slots. This will also allow add reason to have more lower performing perks be 1 slot and also stronger perks be 2+ slots.

1 view 27 seconds? Otz is HIM

My solution to the worst parts of dbd, like 2 people alive at 3 gens, or one person dead at 5, is to have it where gens repair faster based on the amount of people alive. That way it’s beneficial to hook everyone several times before going for kills. It also promotes individual survivors skills because even after someone dies you will still have a fighting chance and it’s not unfair for the killer because they already got a kill. I would love to see a mechanic like this because competitive dbd is so boring because every killer camps the first survivor to stage two, so it’s a 3v1

This was an interesting discussion to listen to. Tru3's idea on a suffering mechanic would fit with the lore and might solve some of the issues dbd suffers with.

Fell asleep watching the gameplay review video and just woke b/c I hear someone talking so loud. Was aburpt like a commercal came on that was way louder than what I was watching. Thanks guest for waking me up.

In my opinion devs should add add things that could counter killers like nurse or blight. I mean, then you don't really need to nerf killer or buff his addons much and also gameplay is more fun. Like, when you play dredge - survivors can lock lockers, when you play singularity - survivors can take this weapon from box, when you play vs nemi - you can take serum from box. And it's only a though: nurse and blight could be slowed or charge their powers slower in case, idk, there was some device on map. You got the idea, like, some things that can counter killer on map while making it much more fun for both sides.

Saving this video for later, but I wanna say this: this might no affect veterans at all, but getting into DB nowadays is borderline impossible and completely frustrating. You need about 60 hours to unlock a character, the reward system is comparable and even worse than gacha games and the worst part, that veterans tend to completely turn a blind eye to, you NEED to spend money on DLC on your PAID game if you want to experience licensed characters or if you want their perks. It should be illegal for someone to buy a game at 20$ and not have access to most of the content. If you don't call it pay to win, at least call it pay to not grind Also, the inability to cross progress renders the money and countless hours you might've spent on another platform useless if you're switching platforms

So I feel like with the wiggle part of the discussion, the meter should start to decrease after either like 15 seconds at a slow rate if the killer is not in chase and so close to the survivor. Or when the killer makes another survivor lose a health state at a faster rate. That way you can't camp the wiggle to hook them easily but you also don't have nothing.

I feel like it should be base kit that your healing progression gets converted to your wiggle because in a casual game where 100% nobody takes hits or saves when your solo queue, it would be nice to have the wiggle to do something other than be a false hope of being able to get free. From how many rounds I’ve played and I’ve gotten great skill checks and I was one great skill check away from getting free but they got to the hook before has happened twice, every other time I barely get 50% before I’m hooked. Even in dead zones they still can get a hook with boil over.

To make the endgame more interesting they should allow the the exit gate switches to regress in progress, kinda at the rate ruin does, at 1/4 the speed of doing the gen

I think it would be cool if using certain perks as killer or survivor increased your MMR, like certain perks could be “soft” nerfed by making the players you face more difficult. This could hugely disrupt “meta” abusers as if you ran 4 of the best perks you could be faced against people who are guaranteed to be prepared for you. This would also help match meta killers with meta survivor groups. And keep all the casual “for fun” players grouped together and not forced to play against your average meta nurse.

My issue on the hooks vs kills topic is hooks doesn't necessarily change the game state (at least intuitively). If I opt to go for hooks instead of securing the kill then all that goes up is a counter. No immediate change in the current state of the game happens other than a timer on someone's life that gets reset because they get rescued and healed while i have to go out and secure another hook. A kill on the other hand changes the game state immediately and shows the killer that they are making progress towards a goal. You could argue that hook stages affects the mood and play of a survivors and adds pressure but that type of game state is only really felt in surv POV not the killers. In a way you can say that gen progress can be seen as hook stages and completed gens as kills. Seeing pistons and a meter fill up does nothing to the Surv but completing gens does. I can get 8 hooks and no kills but at the result screen it'll still say the same result as if I got no hook and no kills. Would it be nice if hooks matter a bit more? Sure i think it'd be a nice consolation or sub-goal/sub-quest. But don't think that kind of thing will ever be possible without building the game from the ground up. The closest i can think of is like a score streak system where both killers and survivors select their perks but have to unlock them by doing actions in a match (nothing specific just the usual BP score stuff but have that score also fill up a perk meter) but i understand that would add some complications that I can't foresee

Re Stealth play; when I first started playing this 'survival horror' game, stealth was very much the style of play I took the game for, enjoyed, and bought into. So 'wanting chases' was not the aim of the game I was sold on, thus getting in a locker to avoid BBQ was not only a means of AVOIDING being spotted but was also a means of completely THROWING the killer into believing you must've been within their TR. Obviously, the game is nothing like a 'survival horror' these days, may as well be a Far Cry mod or something, so whilst I doubt many new players come to the game with stealth being their choice of play, the amount of 'made you scream!' and the like perks force that playstyle to be pretty much taken away. Whether that is good or bad is debatable, but definitely adds to this being an arcade game a mile away from what it once was, which also means less unique than it once was.