I think GW can correct it by upping them in points ( they still are very hordy so there will have things in the table ) and changing the writing of the subfaction, instead of army wide run / retreat and charge make it for ONE Unit
@@julianhennig3579 this, been pushing this army up hill last couple editions, the view from top meta is quite nice. Lose the run and charge and think people would stop crying about them being too strong
Calling nh overtuned at the moment is fair and correct, but at this point it has become this editions mantra that is being echo chambered without thought and I think that is a bad thing. I mean ”nerfing it hard” is always a bad route. As mentioned above, slight andjustments can get it there. Mainly run and charge is the problem and the way how they can cheat easy objectives. Both can be put in check with clever restrictions of some kind I believe.
What I got out of these two hours is that Skaven are the perfect army and I was right to hold on to all my boxes of old Skaven. Thanks for validating my behaviour.
As someone who has played several games against Nighthaunt as Stormcast… I don’t want to play against them anymore. It wasn’t very fun to just get steamrolled on turn one by 60 attacks with no tool to punch through 20 wounds on ethereal 4 up and 5 up ward. And they can bring three of these units on average. You’re right, what can a man do against such reckless hate?
I'm sure it's not easy but grand hammer annihilators can definitely punch through 20w on 4+/5+. The main problem is the points efficiency. They're just way too cheap.
I hate manifestation spam and the forced list building depending on heros. Too less options to take what i want to take and play. More choice for subheros per battalion can fix this maybe. I play conquest too but never thought I hate a aos list building in the same way
You’re not kidding about Blades of Khorne. I rolled through several opponents in my first few games with them. If you understand how to use the tools in the army correctly, they are absolutely oppressive to face. I tabled 3 different opponents by turn 3-4
20 bloodletters are 400 points; to call Khorne “overcost” is insane. Sure the big demons, maybe, but with reinforced bloodletters, a bloodmaster, some skullcrushers and a herald on blood throne, you’re still way under 2000 and you can absolutely demolish multiple units *very* quickly
Me: "I just started painting up Stormcast, I know I'm a Timmy/Spike, I hope Vince puts them right around 'here' Vince: Puts Stormcast right under my mouse. Nice.
Hey I can be the token OBR guy again. I generally agree on both tier placements. The army plays fair which currently means it isn’t good, but is carried by cavalry being strong. And while it’s mostly spike, the variety of buff options allows you to play tactical and try to prove you’re smarter than the other player (Johnny) while also imagining you are katakros ordering an undead spartan force (Timmy)
I just won a small local event with a double demon Prince StD army. I had no manifestations, no wizards, no priests, and no faction terrain. Eye of the gods made up for it in spades.
Man feeling bad now that I traded off the Skaven part of the box to build up more for a SE army. Having KO already is just a gut punch because they feel like Votann now, lost and forgotten about.
I loved Rifts in day late 90s. I used some subrace class to make the Hulk with mega damage (i’m guessing on terminology it’s been 25 yr.) He essentially stomped Prozaks main city.
It is interesting to hear you say that Sons is as high in the needs nerfing category but you dont do that with ogors. Have you played against the 36 glutton list? You are correct in saying that it is a very straight-forward list of honest warhammer, but so many armies cannot touch that DPS check, and on top of that most of that 200+ wounds is on a combat profile that wounds on 2+ and has natural damage 2. They are not unbeatable, but they need a points hike at the very least
16:42 Tell me about it. I build (not glued yet) all the mini's from the Skaventide box and some were way better in hand than in picture. 360's (in video on or the GW website) do give you a better idea, but nothing beats having them in hand. Have been building more just to get an idea of what I like to keep and what to get rid of.
I think the potential for Idoneth is there, the rules are fun, and tides of death is basically unchanged, I just think we're pointed weird and we just lack non-hero units (or secondary heroes that can slot into regiments). I think we're slightly too expensive across the board with some stand-outs for being very over-costed, Sharks and Ishlaen come to mind. I think if we do get that vaunted range update, we'll be in a great spot and if we just come down in points we'll be in lower-to-mid fine. (Also they should just let us take a soulrender or thrallmaster in a regiment, c'mon GW like 60% of our range is heroes)
I can't agree that Kruleboyz are done well. There's so many limitations, points are completely misaligned, the army has 1 build. The battletome has alot of work to do to loosen the reigns on that army. Ironjawz are even worse. Worst performing army right now. Goregruntas should have been 2 damage. The 4+ to hit with almost no way to improve that is harsh. The Megaboss' on MK were nerfed into the ground. Without those, the army doesn't function.
Ive gotten tabled twice by nurgle but still won because they just cant move. They get pinned and only glottkin really has the killing power. Nurgle should get some buffs to their core roster but. Glottkin deleting units with one attack is pretty funny. Strange rules
Nurgle is designed to be tough. Tough doesn't win games. The designers seem to so over value tough that Nurgle can't have anything else. Nurgle pays for being tough with: Points - Nurgle is expensive per model. We're slow - nurgle units are the slowest. In order to be tough, you have to be slow. At least, if the reason you are tough is because you are diseased. We can't be good in other ways - damage per point? Casting per point? Nah, we're tough so we have to be mediocre at those things. Just being slow would be enough to make life difficult. You live and die by battle tactics, and we don't have any tactic scorers that are efficient. But either being priced as an elite army, or being forced to be mediocre at everything else would also be enough. All three, though, is bruuutal.
Thank you, Tom, for fixing the whole mic tapping thing. As always, thank you both for the aos insights. I am not hyped enough to dive into 4th yet, but like to keep my finger on the pulse.
Apologies Vince but I'm going to give up trying to watch some of this long form content on your channel. At 25 mins I have had to skip 10 adverts. I don't know if this is something you have control over but it's so intrusive that it's making the content unwatchable
Yeah ofc, I obv meant "a lot of gluttons"! but more a reflection given your comment on Slaanesh that they have poor faction rules but efficient scrolls, making them spikey- maybe ogres isn't as deep but seems some of their stuff is pretty efficient
KO players are absolutely gaslighting the world. Your army literally can't be charged anymore in a melee focused game. What are you talking about Rough! You still more than enough have the output to delete whole units and are still fast enough to get anywhere you want.
They're just whining because they're a normal army now instead of absurdly overpowered. I had one nearly table me the other day on turn 1-2 double. I basically didn't get to play the game because they shoot and then entirely fight first. They're like a 40k army in AoS, I hate them. The worse they are, the better. Their design is terrible.
@@skullz291 Been there, 'Aw man I didn't get my battle tactic vs a 10 pack of DrakeSpawn Knights with +2 to save 5+ ward -1 to wound on them, only killed 9. Game is over! Wait I'll just take a double and table you!'
I don't buy that Sylvaneth can really be classified as a definitive "One Line or Less" faction. Obviously, every list must include some combination of Alarielle, LoV, and/or Belthanos simply due to how they get around the limitations of AWW, but there's variance there: I've seen lists with just one of the three, or Alarielle & Belthanos, or LoV & Belthanos; and the kind of units Alarielle wants to take aren't necessarily the same you'd want to see in a Belthanos list, and vice-versa, so that already is 5 different kinds of lists. Past the Big Three heroes, there is a ton of diversity in the lists, too. Sylvaneth is one of the few armies in the game that can actually go heavy on shooting with Gossamids and Kurnoths; you can go big on cavalry with the bugs; you can play the maneuvering game with Tree-Revs, Gossamids and cav; you can even go full-on monster mash, easily - I actually saw one 5 drop list that was literally just Alarielle, Belthanos, LoV, Drycha and Durthu, and nothing else - herohammer monster mash at its finest! On top of that, bear in mind that Sylvaneth is also one of the less than half of factions in AoS with an Army of Renown (The Evergreen Hunt). Not only that, but unlike other AoR, like Trugg's Troggherd, for instance, which plays more or less the same as it would if you took the units with the regular faction rules, The Evergreen Hunt plays _completely differently_ from anything else in Sylvaneth, to the point that you have to completely change your style of thinking; it's practically its own unique faction. If your argument is, "That doesn't count since it's not a competitive list!", well, NEWSFLASH: none of the other, more standard Sylvaneth lists are all that competitive _anyway,_ so why not go for it and shake things up? So yes, while you will see Alarielle or Belthanos in _a lot_ of lists, Sylvaneth isn't nearly as much of a one-trick pony as most if not all the other "One Line or Less" tier factions, where you actually will see the exact same list copypasted over and over again more often than not. tl;dr, Sylvaneth = Solidly "A Few Options" tier, in this humble tree-hugger's opinion.
Absolutely. Manifestations are just insult to injury. The amount of control, damage, and shooting they do is their real strength. And horrors are still an incredible tar pit even with the nerfs.
According to this very dubious psychographic theory, I should be playing Sons of Behemat. Problem is, they’re just big cavemen. Can’t there be a dinosaur or a mega-mammoth or a colossal hippopotamus or something? I’m just not interested in cavemen.
I've only recently been pointed to your take on the psychographic profiles, and I'm not convinced your take on Johnny is either right or very consistently applied in your discussions of armies. Paring back to the core concept that a Johnny wants to express something, especially their intelligence or ingenuity, I think the best application to a Warhammer context is the way you expressed it with Sylvaneth in a previous video - Johnny is the player who has a plan and wants to execute it, which is much the same as executing a combo in MTG. You often seem to use it to refer to armies and players who like to demonstrate their mastery of difficult gameplay or the minutiae of rules interactions in game, which is much more the 'nuts and bolts Spike'. The 'combo player' is more rewarded for conceiving and playing out the combo than necessarily executing it perfectly - Johnny may come up with a plan but Spike is the one who's concerned with executing a plan well. 'Making the right decisions at the right times', as you suggest is a Johnny characteristic in the FEC discussion, is surely primarily a Spike feature as it's more about proving mastery of the rules than expressing intelligence. This is obviously related to but not the same as proving your ability to execute a plan, which is more on the Spike side. To take the example where I most strongly disagree with your take: Idoneth give you a predefined plan of sorts - you have a set order in which certain things happen. But playing the army is all about optimisation - about making the most efficient use of each of your abilities at each game stage, and trading your resources for maximum advantage. And while the army is list-dependent it's notoriously an army that has often had a narrow number of 'netlists' which its best players work to maximise their ability to exploit, it's rarely offered a lot of creativity to list builders. Seen that way, Idoneth is one of the purest sheer Spike armies out there, and it doesn't have a lot of the synergy-based gameplay that appeals to Johnny. Playing Idoneth well is far more about proving your skill than expressing your intelligence or creativity, as it's not intrinsically an especially flexible army in either gameplay or list construction. Yet in a past video you had it as the epitome of Johnny.
I think Johnny also emerges in the list building, but several of the strongest Johnnies I know (they self identify as hard johnnies and there history backs it up), all chose IDK and were the ones that spoke to me about that being why they love the army. But these deifnitions are always a bit soft.
Argument for nurgle as timmy/Johnny- glottkin multi-counter charge. Retreat and charge with drones. Place trees strategically with horticulous. Beast shenanigans. Sloppity buff choices. Lots of Johnny tools.
Great show--sorry I missed it live! If you're going to make a NightHaunt + LotR reference, Vince (+ several other great ones here) then the Army of the Dead at the Battle of Minas Tirith would also be apt. As a SC player: bring Vanquishers & maybe Gryph-hounds, & a CoS player: Bleakswords or B.A. Corsairs (moreso if they get a points decrease) to kill them I guess, & hope you don't draw a bunch of 3+ Save armies to bounce off of... I've only played 2 games of 4E, but 4+ Save non-Beast Dire Wolf spam is exhausting, as is a Tzeentch player spamming Endless Spells!
Objective Control is a pretty big miss. It's a GOOD mechanic. But again, the implementation is just completely missed. Where are your 4 OC heroes? Where are your 3 OC 3 man units? Where are the 8 OC heroes? Where are the abilities that roll over the OC characteristic for the effect? Roll a dice equal to the units OC characteristic and do a mortal for each 4+. Etc etc etc. there's SO MUCH space there.
Interesting, I am 90%+ Spike (always have been, always will be) and my favorite armies esthetics wise are Nighthaunt, Slaanesh and Soulblight. So that lines up reasonably well. Only thing is I don't really play..., but still like these kind of episodes because it's fun to think about the game this way.
It will be interesting to see the first few battletomes and the first big balance update (battlescroll). Hope they can identify the problems with balance and playstyle options. Overall, the spread is not too bad for such a massive rules overhaul. As you said, Vince, 10th edition of 40k had it worse.
Nice episode. i'm always interested in what armies fit with which profile. What are peoples thoughts on the sat reveal show for Skaven? I'm hoping for a near 100% refresh, but i also think the doomwheel and lightning cannon could probably stick around. The abom and Bell i'm mixed between needs a new kit or can keep using the old. I'm wanting new storm vermin, and eshin, pestilence, skyre troops. The small weapon teams i kind of hope go to legends or reimagine them as bigger unit type things. The refresh will pretty much determine if i'll sell my half of Skaventide or keep it to start a Skaven army in the future. Personally i do want to start Hedonites, but that will wait for a awesome Christmas boxset or an updated book.
I feel you are totally wrong about Maggotkin in the final list. They are the same as Khorne, with the exact same multiple options. They can build their lists along multiple different lines, I can think of at least four different ways. Now, what you are thinking about is building a powerful list, but as your first tier said they don't have any, and your 2nd tier said they do perform the infect others and don't die to easily well, it just does not win games. I say that they can build multiple lists, that all compete at the same level, all work in slightly different ways, and all perform at the same overall army mediocre level. So your final tier lists should be a reflection of your previous two tiers for each army.
I'm a certified Timmy and I'm loving Soulblight right now, Belladama Volga plus 40 doggos is a good time, Neferata straight up killing a heroes on 5+ even more so
I can’t speak for other armies, but I think your rating on SBGL and SC was a bit harsh. SBGL has a massive buff in bacchanal for all vampires (not just heroes) which means blood knights, VLoZD and all vampire heroes (like vordrai) hit a lot harder and have +1 to cast and if you go in to death rattle, you get an extra d3 models back with deathly invocation, pair that with a morris engine and you will have to wipe the unit entirely, otherwise the majority is coming back. With SC, you have a +1 to cast and a -1 for enemy casting with you’re manifestations, good general warscrolls 3+ and 4+ being base, decent shooting that gives +1 to hit (vigilors), prayers which are always good and some very good hammers. All in all, both of these armies feel like a toolbox that can utterly dismantle your opponent (if built correctly) or, at the very least, go down with some very hard kicks to the crotch.
Very sad that Khorne is still consider a pure Johnny, even with the Bloodthisters having been buffed to be good murder machine... Even the Blood-Tithe mechanic look simpler and... Timmier?
I played a game at a tournament with Nighthaunt where I just barely lost to Flesheaters, and by the end of 4 I had almost no models left on the table, and he had 1 dumb hero die, but the game still ended at like 38-42. I miss played turn 5 and could have won but it was game 3 of day 1 and I was tired
My main deck for magic is a black green elf tribal and my main aos army is fyreslayers, would I be a Timmy spike then? The whole Johnny, Timmy, Spike thing kinda confuses me lol
Interesting with the psycographic profiles. How does the aethestics of an army fit in? The aethestics of an army means alot to me, not just how they play.
one line nagash + deathriders only is a bit harsh on obr imo. I still think there's something there with katakros & immortis, even if there's no battle formation to support it. I still think you can run arkhan, I think you can do something with mortek guard & foot wizards. I'd have them straddling between 'one line' and 'a few options' myself. But I am a bit of a brainwashed bonehead, so maybe I'm fooling myself.
1:08:25 So about 14 in the fat middle, about 6 need help, and 4 need some adjustment down. Overall I would say it’s not a bad release balance wise by GW. It will be interesting to see how things are after Nashcon!
Sylvaneth's problem comes down to how swingy the army can be. You need those trees on the field to function as an army. If your treesong casts are either missed or unbound repeatedly you are in for an uphill battle. This has happened to me and it was effetely game over turn two. If my opponent rolls low on any other spell they miss out on one cool thing but with sylvaneth it's multiple aspects of the army you get to miss out on. They need positive momentum to keep up. This is what's pushing the better sylvaneth lists towards units that can work somewhat independent of trees or provide trees some other means. like the big three named heroes. I'm not sure how I would fix it. It all comes down to getting trees via a spell.
personality wise obr WANTS to be spike, but to be spike you gotta be op, and their current rules aren't that. Not a complaint, mind, we were op for a huge chunk of latter day 3rd, we earned a bit of a break on the bench.
Good show! Hopefully they can deal with some of these internal balance issues earlier in the edition and we won't be left hanging for books to fix them.
Man your China Town reference is killing me because I can't remember the name of the movie; I also feel pretty confident saying Kurt Russell but I accept the possibility of Steven Segal
You're thinking of Big Trouble in Little China, with Kurt Russel. But the reference was to the end of "Chinatown" the 1974 film noir with Jack Nicholson. "Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown..."
feel like this list was made from after week 1 and not updated :( maybe thats just me lol but iono how you can put things fine when they been dominating and leave NH at super high nerf when they have been going down in wins
Where are Beasts of Chaos? They are “officially legal” for a year, and the tier lists are explicitly not evergreen. We’ve got “nerf incoming” and 2 factions with books being announced in days. GW already put us on death row, we don't need to pull the lever early ourselves!
@@VinceVenturella sorry this was a response to the initial statement made by your co-host. Apologies if that was unclear. I was truly curious as to which units and interactions he was referring to
My defense for current FEC belonging in Timmy/Spike rather than Johnny/Spike is that the whole army revolves around their elden ring boss of a big monster faction leader. Johnny hates that the internal balance is so bad that a lot of the list building is decided for him. It's not that Johnny /doesn't/ want to run big Ush, but he resents feeling like he /has/ to. Timmy on the other hand loves that the super cool model, the one he bought an entire army just to have an excuse to put it on the table, is good enough to run 100% of the time.
Also, FEC simply lack the unit variety to be expresive with their lists Basically their options are Bring Ushoran or play a worse army Ghoul spam or Knight spam If Knight spam choose between going full cavalry of sprinkle some Crypt flayers (crypt horrors are so bad this editions, they do negative damage, pls GW make them rend 1)
I never seen a more balanced army than DoK atm. And also I never had so much fun playing an army as I do playing DoK in 4th. There are of course some small internal balance things, but that's to be expected
I'd love to know wtf Tzeentch builds you're vsing cause the consensus in my club after some theory-crafting and tests is bin the whole tome, its garbage.
The stats show they are doing really well, and I have seen many lists be at the top of results around the world, they are usually double chickenm, manifestation focused.
One of you loves doing it the other one loves riding the wave of the moment. As Jeff bazos said don’t follow the hype train. Have a strong why. The writers block of the marathon of the middle, will show who has resilience and who doesn’t.
@@frankfurterberus my problems with them: -Skarbrand is overpriced at 510 and should not be a warmaster. He’s an exile in the lore not a leader. This forces him to be your general if you suffer the points to take him, and he can only take daemon units. This makes the army 3 drop at a minimum if you want to take any more than 1 Bloodthirster and a slaughterpriest- which are some of the best units in the index. We can agree that low drops are good in the current game state. -None of the mortals are great right now. Daemons do most things better and have better formations. -Bloodtithe rewards are anaemic. You no longer build lists around using tithe. Our cheap MSU units are useless and too slow to take objectives or secondaries like take the flanks or take their land. Murderlust as you say is good but no where near what it used to be. -High rend units do nothing to meta baddies NH -Khorne has no good cavalry units. Juggernaut variants are simply overpriced pinning pieces with weak damage output. They don’t hold a candle to Varanguard or pigs for eg. -Zero interaction with Endless spells. These will hopefully be nerfed soon but for now armies that have access to the universal manifestation lores benefit greatly.
How did Tom perform with his Kruleboyz in the tournament? I think KBs have great tools, but they are way to unreliable. I lost many games, because my +1 Damage buff didn‘t go off, but I was in a position to charge or get charged next turn… I also can not tell you how many times my fight last failed on a 2+ or 3+ and the hammer unit completely destroyed my block of 20 Gutrippaz. I didn‘t mind the Mortal Wound game last season with KBs, but right now its just not fun playing them, because you are not bound to skill, but to dice rolls to go off.
Final tier list is to me the most important discussion to have when analyzing factions. As a Johnny I don't care if the army is good if there's only one path to get there
