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Ultimate Home Golf Simulator Build ⛳️ [Uneekor Eye XO / BenQ LK936ST / Carl's Place Enclosure] 

Rogue Engineer
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After seeing one for the first time many years ago, one of my dreams was to have a golf simulator in my home one day. That being said, a few years back I built a budget friendly golf simulator in my barn/workshop. While it was a lot of fun, the foam balls and cheap sensor limitations were quite unrealistic and ultimately fell short of what I had dreamed of. I finally decided to remove that simulator and give it a massive upgrade with the BenQ LK936ST 4K short throw projector, Custom Carl's Place Enclosure, and Uneekor Eye XO Launch Monitor! This truly is a giant leap from what I had in past and the perfect place to enjoy winter nights with the guys, date nights with my wife, or improve my game in the off season. In this tutorial I'll go over all the details of how it came together.
Full Blog Post: rogueengineer.com/ultimate-di...
Previous Budget Golf Sim: • Affordable DIY Home Go...
Find Your Golf Simulator Projector : benqurl.biz/3TfST5Z
BenQ LK936ST Golf Simulator: benqurl.biz/3F9YdlM
Projector Calculator: projectorcalculator.benq.com/
Carls Place Enclosure: shop.carlofet.com/build-your-...
Hitting Mat: shop.carlofet.com/extras/your...
Uneekor Eye XO: shop.carlofet.com/uneekor-eye...
Curtains: amzn.to/3jVTQ6C
Netting: amzn.to/3IyidBM
Putting Turf: amzn.to/3k3ujbN
Rough: amzn.to/3vU8bDi
Flood Lights: amzn.to/3HbWnSd
Pin Light: amzn.to/3HACgPd
My Computer: click.linksynergy.com/deeplin...
Other 3080ti Computers: click.linksynergy.com/deeplin...
Roxor Golf Controller: www.roxorgolf.com/golf-simula...
GSPro Software: gsprogolf.com/
#GolfSimulator #Mancave #BenQLK936ST #Uneekor #CarlsPlace
Learn more about Ryobi HP Tools: www.ryobitools.com/products/o...
0:00 Enclosure
6:20 Projector
9:10 Sides & Top
10:26 Floor
12:52 Lighting
13:53 Launch Monitor
18:04 Computer
12:06 Networking
21:48 Final Thoughts
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Buy a shirt: bit.ly/rogueSHOP
Shop on Amazon: bit.ly/rogueAMZN
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3 июн 2024

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Комментарии : 140   
@GolfSimulatorVideos
@GolfSimulatorVideos Год назад
Thanks for the shout out! Happy to help and as expected looks like you nailed it! Time to join those online leagues! :)
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Thanks for your help Jay! Haven’t gotten into the online leagues yet but can see how that would be a blast. Hopefully soon!
@SuperJab69
@SuperJab69 Год назад
Amazing build, great advice before I start my build. Can’t wait to get my planning permission back. ⛳️
@JohnJohnson-he1yv
@JohnJohnson-he1yv Год назад
Thank you. One of the best reviews and descriptions out there!
@longhorn8459
@longhorn8459 Год назад
Really excellent set up for a "DIY" solution, I think you nailed it. So many out there want the "cheapest possible" but I think there is a market for this much nicer setup and you crushed it. I had never heard of the Roxor product, thanks for sharing!
@EverydayBroC10
@EverydayBroC10 Год назад
Legit setup. Way to go! Enjoyed your thoughtful attention to detail and sharing that. Garage addition in progress, going to put in a sim. I'd love this kind of setup.
@deucehenderson3756
@deucehenderson3756 Год назад
What a great set up!! Nice job man. You give some great insight on things to expect when building your own set up.
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Thank you!
@peteralexanderkelley
@peteralexanderkelley Год назад
Great build and a lot of great tips, thank you! Two quick questions: Does your split system above the enclosure affect the screen at all? Does it still cool/heat your garage?
@dunmer26
@dunmer26 Год назад
Dude this is awesome. Great idea to make the sides replicate the rough
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Thank you!
@MsEllasdad
@MsEllasdad Год назад
A legit setup! Thanks for sharing. I'd love to see a cost breakdown just for context, but I think yours is a far cry better than the golf-in-a-box options...👍
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Thank you! I have all the links in the bio but maybe a full cost breakdown on the blog post would be a good call.
@jacksonv671
@jacksonv671 Год назад
Over $25,000 for anyone wondering, great vid and awesome setup.
@billymartin9176
@billymartin9176 Год назад
I was wondering what the total price was for everything
@user-lf5ro5nr4k
@user-lf5ro5nr4k Год назад
Hey great review! Just wonder what putting green turf you went with as well as the artificial rough? Appreciate the video you've absolutely nailed this setup!
@joe704la
@joe704la Год назад
Great setup, awesome video and a lot of great info. I apologize if I missed this in the video but what are the measurements of the space? Looks like maybe 14' wide x 10' high x maybe 10' or 12' where the hitting area is. I am trying to plan out my hitting space and wanted to see how much space I really need.
@WithSeb
@WithSeb Год назад
Pretty comprehensive setup video.
@smokinjaws3310
@smokinjaws3310 10 месяцев назад
Fantastic! I wish I had your budget!!
@JeradAshworth
@JeradAshworth Год назад
Hey man, love the video!! Question for you...what did you use to connect the 1" emt to the wall and the ceiling for the drapes?
@yuzhenwang1721
@yuzhenwang1721 Год назад
Well done! Good job
@alexandergetty4950
@alexandergetty4950 28 дней назад
Hey @Rogue Engineer, I love your setup and I'm thinking about doing something very similar. Just curious, which size enclosure did you choose? Thanks!
@GreasyTroll-TV
@GreasyTroll-TV Год назад
Curious what rough turf and putting turf you went with? Cheers! Looks fantastic
@bchimenti67
@bchimenti67 7 месяцев назад
Great video. I’m also going to install the Uneekor eye xo or eye xo 2 and really like how you mounted it on the ceiling. Can you give me any advice on how you did yours? The 2 pole look is sharp!
@MichaelJones-ff9gb
@MichaelJones-ff9gb Год назад
This is an awesome build! The EYE XO launch monitor is $10k. The good news is 2023 is going to have a ton of companies flood the market with competing products. If I was to invest in this, I would want a launch monitor that did NOT require stickers on my clubs!
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Thanks! To be clear though, the Eye XO doesn’t require stickers to play but it does provide more club data with the stickers
@scottyoung3329
@scottyoung3329 Год назад
Good point about new products and maybe upgrades of existing products? Any thoughts-info on what's coming?
@abg7826
@abg7826 Год назад
Very Nice! Do you have a build video on the rustic bar? Also very nice
@glennwatson3313
@glennwatson3313 Год назад
Its gorgeous.
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Thank you!
@_skruffes
@_skruffes 9 месяцев назад
great one! One question: How is the quality for filming or gaming?
@todburres6460
@todburres6460 9 месяцев назад
I am building a very similar setup. I liked your idea for the formulae insulation on th flooring - how is that holding up? Would you recommend it over EVA foam pads?
@Billy-zz6ty
@Billy-zz6ty 8 месяцев назад
Looks great! Love to do something similar. How does everything hook to your computer. Running 2 HDMI? Ethernet for the sensor? What about controlling the computer from a different room?
@donnapunj8800
@donnapunj8800 8 месяцев назад
Very useful. What is ceiling height of your garage? What is distance from projector lens to impact screen?
@patrickkelley7511
@patrickkelley7511 4 месяца назад
Awesome setup! What is the height off the ground to the bottom of the uneekor eye xo? I’m in the process of building one one and I want to make sure I have enough clearence with someone’s swing path
@patdavis8888
@patdavis8888 Год назад
I just bought that same projected from SIM golf. Waiting for it to arrive. I’m like a kid on Christmas right now! I will say, I had the country club elite mat as well, but had to switch to Fiberbuilt. I got some nasty golfer’s elbows from the CCE mat. Hopefully you don’t end up in the same spot. We have a very similar setup in the garage, with the curtains on the side in order to move when snow is in the forecast! Awesome set up. Thanks for all the details. I may look into a Uneekor. I’m currently running a SkyTrak, but the additional club info looks amazing. Awesome vid as always, bud!
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Thank you! And thanks for the advice on golf mats. I haven't had any joint pain from the CCE mat but have noticed that it really penalizes fat shots. Improvement-wise, it has caused me to hit the ball more pure but can be frustrating for others when playing in a group. The club data from Uneekor is insane and has definitely helped me identify what I need to refine in my swing.
@patrickdavis7238
@patrickdavis7238 Год назад
@@rogueengineer I completely agree about the CCE mat. It is not very forgiving for anyone who tends to get a bit chunky. I meant to ask, did you find any particularly helpful video for setting up your projector or did you just use the BenQ website?
@habit681
@habit681 Год назад
First of all it’s a totally awesome set up really, enjoyed your video and all of the details… But I agree that the CCE Mat destroyed both my elbows after 4 months. So much so that I needed Physio on both… I switch to the fibrebuilt Grass series and a year and a half later I have zero pain!
@benwilmarth5473
@benwilmarth5473 8 месяцев назад
I started with an expensive 5x10 piece of Sym turf (TeeLine) which is pretty close to the CCE mat in how its built and feels. My issue was that in a garage setting where we could not move around the mat much because of space issues and the ball had to be struck in a small area only we wore that expensive material down quickly! If you can't move around much this is why you see most evolve into a replaceable hitting strip setup. So essentially I spent $1000 for a mat that I couldnt use anymore!
@jabutch11
@jabutch11 Год назад
What do you do with the mats when you need to use the garage bay to park your car?
@realJohnWare
@realJohnWare Год назад
Nicely done. 👍🏼
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Thank you!
@jonathanbrown9245
@jonathanbrown9245 Год назад
Brill video and set-up mate, thanks for all the info. How is the memory foam holding out, has it created any sag in the frame from the extra weight?
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Thanks! The foam is working great and supported on the ends so no sag
@vinodnagarajan
@vinodnagarajan 5 месяцев назад
Would like to discuss about the software that u are running. Please let me know if we can have a quick connect. Thanks
@TheEugenelee13
@TheEugenelee13 Год назад
Love the video and setup. On the landing area, you’re the first that I’ve seen use an insulator board vs gym mats. When you drive your car in (assuming you do that), do you just lift the landing area up and store it? I’ve been struggling with trying to figure out how to park the car in the area with my enclosure. Your setup might work if I could lift the whole landing area up. And does the insulation board do a good job of slowing down balls off the screen? Thanks!
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
I don't often park cars in this area so I don't have to move it frequently but yes it is light and would lift up all in one piece to store against the screen. The floor is great for putting but you wouldn't want to count on it for slowing balls down. Thats the job of the screen and the foam mattress topper behind it.
@stevenjakub
@stevenjakub Год назад
As everyone else said, amazing video, clearly you designed and succeeded in creating a dream simulator. My question is can you go into more detail about how you wired everything to an AV receiver, and how the projector screens works as a second monitor and so on. I love the idea of that for use of golf sim, gaming, movies but you lost me with the details of the wiring. One other question is, if you were to be designing a designated space for this set up, how many power outlets would you have wired? What other wiring would you set up before installing?
@ericcorder9083
@ericcorder9083 11 месяцев назад
I"m so jealous!
@blackheart7886
@blackheart7886 Год назад
Awesome.
@AstuteHobbes
@AstuteHobbes Год назад
Great thumbnail. Got me to watch the video
@Fat_Panda83
@Fat_Panda83 Год назад
Really excellent video.. one of the best simulator build videos on RU-vid! Also.. killer sim build too! 2 questions: 1. Can you share more info on the materials used and how you dropped down the EYEXO? 2. Also, materials and how you mounted Roxor controller on its stand? Thanks so much!
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Thank you! To drop the Eye XO I used 1/2” pipe with flanges on each end. Drilled holes to match in the bracket and bolted together. The Roxor controller has a threaded insert in the bottom that will mount to most tripods. Hope that helps!
@dduncan86
@dduncan86 4 месяца назад
What connector did you use to attach your side rails to the ceiling and wall?
@scottyoung3329
@scottyoung3329 Год назад
Thanks. Planning for one in same $20,000 price range late 2023-2024. How do we choose?? 1- Other than ceiling mount, why did you choose Uneekor EYE XO over so many others? 2- Are these up-gradable in any way say a few years after purchase? ie. does software improve etc. or are you stuck with what you buy? 3. Putting - No simulator seems to talk much about how the putting works and/or how well. Can anyone help me understand that? 4. Can you connect/watch movies/netflix/TV etc on this giant screen? 5. Why did you buy from Carls instead of a place that has all in one package options like shopindoorgolf? Do you think you got a better all around price buying separately? I'm not as handyman as you so the more complete all in 1 package with great instructions is a big factor for me. Thanks very much for any thoughts suggestions or any other videos that cover how to decide.
@TG-821
@TG-821 7 месяцев назад
What did you use to attach the curtain rods to the wall?
@n8doggmn
@n8doggmn 8 месяцев назад
What is the depth of your enclosure and how far away from the wall is it when you are hitting into it?
@samrobinson5855
@samrobinson5855 Год назад
Great video, i'm in the middle of something similar. Wondering if you have a link to the lights you used?
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Thanks! Flood Lights: amzn.to/3HbWnSd Pin Light: amzn.to/3HACgPd
@ggill977
@ggill977 6 месяцев назад
Nice setup. Do you know if there is club data on GSpro when you use your Uneekor eye xo. IE, ball impact position and club path? I would rather use this software vs getting refine. Thanks for your help.
@coryseaward975
@coryseaward975 Месяц назад
Go for the protee vx.. Way cheaper with more options. It has slow motion camera and club speed recognition.. Insane
@brightsideproductions1811
@brightsideproductions1811 Год назад
Great video! What are the dimensions of the screen you used if you don't mind? I'd like to get that height you have
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Thank you! The enclosure size is 111" high by 144" wide. More details are in my blog post.
@thewilddawg
@thewilddawg Год назад
Where did you get the stand for the control box?
@benwilmarth5473
@benwilmarth5473 8 месяцев назад
Do you or anyone tuning in have the final consensus on the best thickness, size & supplier of a memory foam topper to install behind our impact screens to minimize the bounce back? Also how far away from the impact screen seems to reduce the bounce back and noise as well? Thankyou!
@tlr8611
@tlr8611 Год назад
Awesome build and very well made. Behind the screen did the memory foam make a difference with bounce back/sound? If so did you just dangle the pad in mid air or have it right up against the back of the screen?
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Thank you! It did make a big difference with bounce back and sound. I have it hanging about 4-6" behind the screen.
@benwilmarth5473
@benwilmarth5473 8 месяцев назад
Do you think having any kind of extra padding whether it is a memory foam pad like yours, heavy blankets etc that the additional material behind the screen technically wears the screen quicker since it cuts the amount of screen "throw" down? Hopefully that makes sense.@@rogueengineer
@3o1Golf
@3o1Golf 8 месяцев назад
great video! :D love the beard ;) would love to play a game in gs pro :D
@indianaboyle
@indianaboyle Год назад
Excellent video, thank you! Does your eyexo have issues with your floor not being level? I’m assuming it’s not level because it’s a Garage. Uneekor told me they can’t guarantee accuracy if the hitting surface is not level
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Thank you! Luckily my floor is level but if you don't have a level floor I'm sure you could figure out a way to level the hitting area.
@brendanparry8177
@brendanparry8177 Год назад
Awesome build! Has anyone ever hit the sensor hanging from roof? Or is it designed to withstand a golf ball miss hit?
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Thanks! I've hit it on a bounce back one time. No big deal. It has a steel case around it. I think Carls even offers a protective cover
@dancollins5478
@dancollins5478 4 месяца назад
Damn dude. You spared no expense. How often do you use it.
@ugadude143
@ugadude143 8 месяцев назад
What size is your sceen if you dont mind me asking!
@kirkoquinn7396
@kirkoquinn7396 Год назад
Hey, I did the same thing with the moving blanket and had the same results; the blanket got torn up. The problem with this is the 'black' stuff that came out of the moving blanket got on the balls and then transferred to the screen leaving a noticeable dark area on the screen; essentially ruining the screen. The screen still functions fine, but you can definitely notice the dark area around the center of the screen where all the balls hit. I hope you didn't have the same problem. For all those reading this, DO NOT use a moving blanket behind your impact screen. Just use a comforter or light blocking shade.
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
I did get a little staining but luckily I caught it in time and it wasn’t too bad. But yes, for everyone else, learn from our bad experiences and don’t use moving blankets!
@bryanin82
@bryanin82 Год назад
Amazing setup. The link at the end does not work though - 404 error.
@SeanGolf
@SeanGolf Год назад
Did you look at GC2/GC Quad vs your Eye XO? What drew you to the Uneekor? Also have a dream of building one of these but want to buy it all just once lol. Amazing video as always!
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
I did, liked the Eye XO because it was ceiling mounted. The quad would need to be moved in and out and switched sides for right vs leftys. Overall I think the quad is a great launch monitor as well but I wanted to use GSPro as well and while I think you can make it work, it's not currently a sensor supported by GSPro.
@SeanGolf
@SeanGolf Год назад
@@rogueengineer did not think of that! Brilliant! I think I’d choose the Eye XO as well! Im a lefty and all my buddies are righty’s hah. Thank you so much!
@kevinbattenfield1068
@kevinbattenfield1068 Год назад
@@SeanGolf Don't forget about the GC Hawk. It is a Foresight Sports product. It is a ceiling mounted unit that handles right and left-handed golfers as well.
@drakesquarebriggs6330
@drakesquarebriggs6330 8 месяцев назад
what are the dimensions from the screen to the hitting area?
@timothybainter2118
@timothybainter2118 Год назад
Great video and great setup. I clicked the link for the blog, and it didn’t work. Any ideas?
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Thanks. Try this link: rogueengineer.com/ultimate-diy-home-golf-simulator/
@dduncan86
@dduncan86 4 месяца назад
How deep is your enclosure?
@MrJoeyhall87
@MrJoeyhall87 Год назад
What HDMI cable did you run to maximize your 4K projector?
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
amzn.to/3XDHZJA
@bradtinkel9790
@bradtinkel9790 Год назад
Do you think the foam Board would dint over time. I’m thinking about doing this over the mats due to price
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
It might dent if a heavy pointed object was dropped it but just walking on it hasn't affected it in the least
@bradtinkel9790
@bradtinkel9790 Год назад
@@rogueengineer thanks for the reply. Might try this
@legestrom
@legestrom 5 месяцев назад
damn man this is legit
@masterfabricator
@masterfabricator Год назад
I feel like i am watching alex from mr build it 🤣 but i gave you a 👍 anyway
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Haha… I’m way cooler than that guy
@jayrose9463
@jayrose9463 Год назад
How much was total build?
@allozano2420
@allozano2420 4 месяца назад
What are the dimensions of the actual screen? 7:43
@dustindhansen
@dustindhansen Год назад
Bro what do you do for a living?
@corriecalvert9212
@corriecalvert9212 Год назад
You can walk on the foam insulation to get your ball and it doesn’t break??
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
We walk on it all the time. No issues.
@corriecalvert9212
@corriecalvert9212 Год назад
@@rogueengineer I might have to try that then. Would be cheaper and way less work than what im doing lol. Do you remember what the R rating was for what you used?
@luciusborkowski8170
@luciusborkowski8170 Год назад
This would be great. Except for the fact that the sensor alone is 10 grand
@almondos1
@almondos1 Год назад
ceiling height is? as I see you're only hitting 4 iron!
@bklounge_golf
@bklounge_golf Год назад
Where did you get your ceiling netting?
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Amazon
@bklounge_golf
@bklounge_golf Год назад
@@rogueengineer pond netting? I’m seeing a lot of options
@brooks3765
@brooks3765 Год назад
Must be nice.. I'll never be able to build anything like that..! Enjoy, man!
@ChayseGrizzell
@ChayseGrizzell Год назад
I'm currently working on designing a simulator using the eye xo. Our plan is to convert our home gym. 16' x 20' x 15' My plan is to cut into the existing wall for the impact screen, filling the wall with 3-4 inch memory Foam. The impact screen would run flush with the wall, giving it a nice framed look. I envision using retractable netting/curtains on both sides and top. You would be able to clip and unclip them to the frame and surrounding walls whenever the simulator is being used, while also using the space as a media room similar what you have done. 1. Can I layer the impact screen directly on top memory foam without having additional air space behind the memory foam? 2. Do you actually need an enclosure or could you just attach the curtains along the perimeter of the impact screen/padded frame?
@tvarn595
@tvarn595 Год назад
how much?
@grungekap
@grungekap Год назад
great setup wasted money on a ti card thou
@Lefishn
@Lefishn 11 месяцев назад
Switching to the EYEXO is good move but not even same ballpark as Mevo plus. Extra $10,000 upgrade so of course work better
@rlmrmss
@rlmrmss Год назад
So all in what did it end up costing?
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Around 20k
@Mikeahobby
@Mikeahobby Год назад
at least, porjector 4899, computer 3500, eye xo 10000....
@Lefishn
@Lefishn 11 месяцев назад
Man would be nice to have an extra $50,000 for an at home simulator
@jakenewman1681
@jakenewman1681 Год назад
How much did all this cost total ?
@andyrcampbell
@andyrcampbell Год назад
Doesn’t want his wife reading the answer to this question ! 😂🤣😂🤣
@frankpanuccio4648
@frankpanuccio4648 Год назад
What happened to your first simulator?
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
I donated it to the local fire department
@chrisgavelek1431
@chrisgavelek1431 Год назад
What was the total cost of this build?
@Turtleswan
@Turtleswan Год назад
Dude is easily 20K deep in to this build. Bonkers money but the result speaks for itself.
@ktms1188
@ktms1188 Год назад
Wonder how many times had to do that intro
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
😂 more than I’d like to admit
@zachbuchanan5109
@zachbuchanan5109 Год назад
Nice setup. Money not being an issues must be nice
@davidvesseur
@davidvesseur 4 месяца назад
The loser the impact screen, the more the more with leave an indent in the screen?
@joesmith6972
@joesmith6972 2 месяца назад
It shouldn't. The more the screen is allowed to move as a whole, the less the screen has to stretch at the impact spot to absorb the ball's energy.
@chadhowell1328
@chadhowell1328 Год назад
Phew $2500 for that pc isn’t great but cool setup none the less though!
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Thank you!
@reedcranmore1427
@reedcranmore1427 Год назад
This video is just a flex on how much money he has. But respect it’s sick
@Joeybagofdonuts123
@Joeybagofdonuts123 Год назад
Can you also explain how to convince your wife to let you spend 20k on a golf simulator?
@jiwoongpark1231
@jiwoongpark1231 Год назад
I wish I was rich
@shannonglover5291
@shannonglover5291 Год назад
You know this already, but the foam you are putting on the pipes is doing nothing to help with bounce back. If anything, it may amplify it.
@phil7083
@phil7083 Год назад
I guess you can't invite any lefties over for Sim night :(
@rogueengineer
@rogueengineer Год назад
Why not? I just had one over the other night.
@phil7083
@phil7083 Год назад
@@rogueengineer Maybe it's the angle, but seems like the back swing might come pretty close to the cabinets with Driver
@PheelFalic
@PheelFalic Год назад
I feel so poor
@brentweir4651
@brentweir4651 Год назад
Hate to be "that guy", and before I say it, it's a killer setup either way...No lefties allowed, huh?
@chriskozub8012
@chriskozub8012 Год назад
Tell me you’re rich without telling me you’re rich.
@cjschmitt4882
@cjschmitt4882 Год назад
bitcoin minner...lol
@sambro9134
@sambro9134 Год назад
Holyshit, now all I need is to rob a bank for the funds to put this altogether
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