One underated thing about you guys is your ability to have genuine debates. even when discussing contradicting opinions, none of you has a problem recognising à good argument, and evolving or changing your mind and saying "ok you are right". Underated emotional and intellectual maturity and intégrity in these days.
The game is less interesting when an orthodoxy/consensus forms, so we get excited when we are wrong about something. If we're wrong, that means there is more to learn and explore!
@@TheStormkeep I had another question and I'll take davantage of you being here ^^ : Dispite listening to most of your stuff, and collecting and painting Stormcast, I rarely play the game, and never in tourneys. So I have no idea of the "roughness" ("hardness" ? ) of the meta. In your estimations, your vidéos are for those who want to 5-0 or for all compétitive play. In other words, can I still have good fun games and win 2 or 3 of those with my fun Krondys half optimised list, or is even the middle of the pack too "hard" for B/C lists. I dont care for longstrikes for exemple, and will put Krondys In every list because "Big Ass Dragon Wizard Lord". Even if the fit is weird. Thank you guys keep up the good stuff :)
@@plazma5343 Our videos tend to focus on the tournament scene because that's what we are all interested in, but we try to make it applicable to all levels of play. You can have a great time playing Krondys even if he isn't the best choice right now! Andy2D6 recently played a Stardrake + Krondys list and had a great time - you can check out his battle report here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-6xNcDu5BZ0E.html
First event using Grandhammers and I go up against a Tzeentch list with Belakor. The second unit of Grandhammers I drop finishes off Belakor with charge mortals and then kills Kairos with melee attacks. Was beautiful.
Sorry, i absolutely love the Vanq 2". Bringing them at 7" helped to absorb Unleash hell vs bowsnakes, and still having 30'ish attacks. With all-out and triumph, that's a lot of dmg. Also, vs my Sylvaneth opponent, when he did a strike/fade alpha strike and only killed 5, and with 5+ rally, i got 3 back, healed up my real hammer which almost negated the entire alpha strike. Sorry, i love my 1 unit of reinforced Vanq. Concur Vanguard-Hunters could be S tier. My main formation now is Astral Templars with 2 units of hunters (never use them as a screen) and one reinforced Vanq.
The value of Vanquishers certainly rises depending on your local scene. If people aren't using many units with 10+ models, then Vanquishers are going to do less damage than Liberators They're not a bad unit by any means - we gave them a B Tier ranking :)
There's enough of spot for them as battleline that can imperitant drop. They make astral templar imperitant builds much easier to do. 10 do take an obj from clanrats/stabbas/wolves. The 4+ is annoying though, I don't see why we have 4+ saves in our book. 5 man basic battleline is such a handicap that they should really not be conservative with their stats at all.
Also hoarfrosted gryph hounds are nasty. Don’t know if it’s stupid or not but like it works with the 6” coherency thing and their fast movement as a potential rend 3 alphastrike
Came for the curiosity of it (as someone about to start SCE), stayed for the Yndrasta theme mini-rant. Loved her book, 11/10, but yeah rules are total mismatch. Hopefully in 4e she'll be the guided missile she should.
Agree with most of the grades and reasoning with 1 notable exception -- Protectors are at least C My block of 10 is an incredible anvil in the lists I use it in (to be fair, I don't always use them) and still surprise opponents with their combination of durability and damage. Their lack of mobility hasnt been a problem since other parts of my army take on those roles
I really appreciate these lists although I don’t play SCE as much recently. Maybe will pick it back up in 4th edition. But these videos are so well organized and thorough.
This is always some of my favorite AOS content. I still used to go back and listen to the July tier list. IMO Annihilators are the best looking units in Stormcast, so I'm happy that they're viable. Paladins are my second favorite, so I continue to fantasize about getting Protectors and Retributors to work. But obviously, with Tempestors and Fulminators being similar points costs but so much faster, it doesn't really make sense to try.
For Questor Soulsworn, I dont know about reinforced But I would accept them only being Unique(1) when taken outside of SCE allegiance, and being maybe Unique(2) or (3) inside SCE allegiance (depending on Stormkeep or Scions)
Great video! Sorry that I'm late here. Hahaha! One thing extra need to be noticed. Knight-Venator's starfade ability can ignore new "Look out sir!", and it is D6 to hero! and monster target! It is not bad at all even compared to vexillors. Also they move way faster and shoot all the time during the game. This is also better than vexillors.
For 20p less you can get a Knight-Vexillor that does D3 mortal wounds to every unit in a 12" circle instead :P Max 6 damage per turn on 3+/3+/-1 isn't very impressive for 140p
I really want Blizzard to depart. I’ve had good times with it, but it’s been too long. I once got it off in a tournament and ended up rolling three 1s and a 2 almost killing my general on the spot. And lost my Karazai to a high Blizzard roll the next game. Felt bad, but it was also hype as heck.
Yeah Blizzard is fun but also too swingy. It's great fun for casual games, but is starting to be a problem in tournaments when people stop bringing reinforced units that can't survive Blizzard
As always, excellent analysis! Thanks. I really think Arcanum on Dracoline is B. I tested him, his impact on pack of 6 Dracolines is meaningful and make overshadow realiable. Not best competitive option but open other gameplays than Spellcasting Savant
you can say this for almost every unit in this list and you did for many of them: most of these units WERE good when they were released but were left in the dust rapidly due to GWs power avalanches. At this point you cannot call this powercreep anymore. Picked up pace in Age of Sigmar even more quickly then 40k and that says A LOT.
Thank god the one guy said Look out Sir was important. I'm telling you, there was some bad takes in the video lol. Look out sir is a good rule as its written. And I agree yes, easy fix, add a rule to a unit that says it ignores look out sir if you want that unit to be a hero sniper. That's it.
I'm currently watching and not fully through the list, I'm curious tho if you take into consideration the ranking in Stormkeep vs the ranking in Scions. Redeemer are huge for stormkeep in my opinion
We do consider both Stormkeep and Scions! We think Scions is generally better but there is some interesting Stormkeep play this season. Stay tuned for our next list building video to see some cool Stormkeep lists :)
I'm an Astral Templars fanatic, so I may be biased, but I think you may be underestimating Palladors a bit. Unit 3 is actually not impressive, but check out the stathammer for unit 6 with axes. Their damage output is really good, and they are cavalry, they are mobile and can teleport...
I have a question ? Why can’t yndrasta and bastion issue holy commands. I was under the assumption that bastion was able to issue them across the board with his ability
Most of the Holy Commands require KNIGHT, LORD, or DRACONITH to issue. Call for Aid does not require these keywords, but the rest of the Holy Commands do require them. Yndrasta and Celestant-Prime do not have any of these keywords, so they cannot issue most of the Holy Commands. Bastian can issue them because he has the LORD keyword. I think we may have had a slip of the tongue there
@@TheStormkeep thank you. My current list I’ve been doing well with has a niche for using bastion to snipe of heroes with flanking raptors and issuing thunderbolt volley 😅😮💨
You guys had a lot of hot takes on things I currently am finding success in. A lot dropped a tier too. To include: gardus/vanquishers Surprised me some but we all see things with some variance due to our experiences. This was my 5-0 at Rumble in the Rockies GT. Army Faction: Stormcast Eternals - Army Type: Stormkeep - Army Subfaction: Hallowed Knights - Grand Strategy: Spellcasting Savant - Triumphs: Indomitable LEADER 1 x Knight-Incantor (120)* - Spells: Merciless Blizzard, Celestial Blades 1 x Knight-Incantor (120)* - Spells: Merciless Blizzard, Hoarfrost 1 x Gardus Steel Soul (160)** 1 x Yndrasta (260)** 1 x Pontifex Zenestra (180)** 1 x Knight-Zephyros (100)*** - General - Command Traits: Master of Magic - Artefacts: Arcane Tome BATTLELINE 10 x Vanquishers (100)*** - Vanquisher-Prime - Storm‑forged Icon Bearer - Vanquisher Herald 5 x Vindictors (110)*** 5 x Vindictors (110)*** ENDLESS SPELL 1 x Everblaze Comet (90) OTHER 3 x Praetors (130)** 6 x Questor Soulsworn (210)*** - Questor-Prime - Soulsworn Knight-Relictor 6 x Questor Soulsworn (210)*** - Questor-Prime - Soulsworn Knight-Relictor CORE BATTALIONS: *Andtorian Acolytes **Warlord ***Battle Regiment TOTAL POINTS: (2000/2000)
@@jarodbrown4715 haha I knew I would regret putting Yndrasta in D Tier! What does your local meta look like? How often do you play battleplans that are bad for Questors like Every Step Is Forward and Power Flux?
@@TheStormkeep yeah my heart hurt on the Yndrasta tier. Haha. But it’s justified.. she’s niche. So I get it. I personally wouldn’t consider any of those bad battle plans. I usually am forced to go first on most battleplans (mage Dom) and if I’m not we have secure the battlefield to make up for it. Granted it burns the teleport but that’s really IF your opponent gets close enough to unbind the zephy which is always hugging the edge of the table as far as possible. In all of my games I never felt like I was doomed on tactics. Except for KO because I can’t split my forces against that army. Or they pick off the isolated units.
@@TheStormkeep the meta was unknown to me since I’m not from Canada and flew in for the GT. But it appears they favored Gotrek immensely. 35% of lists featured him. Outside that I’m in the west coast USA meta.
Playing Path to Glory. 750 points allowed. Tell me if Gardus Steel Soul (5+ Ward to Hallowed Knights) and Decimators is a good decision as Hallow Knights. If I go with ratings for Decimators it seems not good, but 26 attacks or level 36 attacks or even 41 attacks (one time) seems a great number of opportunities to wound when going up against 10+ model enemy units. I would also carry Knight Zephyros (General, Arcan Tome, Lightening Blast), Knight Arcanum (Celestial Blades, Chain Lightening), one unit of Vindictors, Emerald Lifeswarm, and Suffocating Gravetide. What are your thoughts? Any recommendations? Thank you for your input.
Can we get a skaven unit tier list from you guys. It’s kinda funny but currently unit tier list just doesn’t exist for that faction at all. It’s like everybody is scarred of just mentioning pcb and screening bells being taken😂
We make videos about the armies that we are passionate about and feel confident enough to make unit rankings, and currently we don't have any dedicated Skaven players on the team. PCB and bells are pretty wild right now, it's surprising how long everyone slept on those warscrolls! Maybe when they get a new book this summer ;)
it is kinda heartbreaking that all the cool dragons that got me into the faction (stormdrake, Stardrake Karazai) are just meh or overcosted. Struggling to notnjust shelve the entire army.
There are few things I don't get : Redeemers ; why would Vindictors fall down so much ? I mean, sure they are 10 pts more expensive than Liberators for same save, but Lib have just such pathetick demage output. Aside from lacking points to get certain unit I just can't comprehend why would anyone pick any Liberator at all. And why is having Call for Aid so importand ? I mean, sure, having additional unit set up in Azyr is nice, but unless you pick specific battalion, you miss on Thuderbolt Volley, wich is imo better by far. Protectors ; i understand not giving this unit S, or A, or even B, but D ? Those dudes have 3 wounds, 5 attacks, and permanent +1 save buff for prize of 2 Vindictors. They're literally brick wall with spikes. Vigilors - vigilors are essentialy AoA for multiple units and for two phases for a relatively low cost. They can replace Aeatherwings (wich have A rank) for Raptors while supporting rest of your army. Not giving them B is a crime. Hurricanes - If your target doesn't have 3+ save natively, it will feel every salvo from this unit. 6 of those can easly score over 20 hits. That's statisticly 10 wounds taken on avarage if you have 4+ save. I often dealt over 30 wounds to my enemies and I just can't thing of a list that wouldn't use them (exept against opponents with many NSave=3+ units) . It was mentioned that Judicators are better - but those are nearly the same but more expensive and without bonus from Pigeonwings and they take more place, and it was also mentioned that Tempestors are better than them - with wich i'm not gonna argue, these are just good (or at least I trust they are, i've never played them, but scoring S seems like a good reason to believe so), but they don't invalidate previous two. VRwHC *DO* deserve to be put in "Situationally Usefull" niche if not "Specific but usefull" one.
The difference in damage between Liberators and Vindictors is not significant. In many situations Liberators actually do more damage than Vindictors because of Lay Low the Tyrant. Vindictors shine when you reinforce them, but once you do that you're probably better off taking a unit like Questors instead. Call for Aid is important because it is powerful! You can revive a unit immediately during your opponents turn and steal objectives after they have finished all their movement, or just put another screen in the way of their melee units to mitigate a potential double turn. REDEEMERS are there to die, revive, and die again - this should give you enough time for your hammer units to hit the right targets at the right time. We highly recommend taking the Warlord battalion so you can take both Thunderbolt Volley and Call for Aid! Protectors are D because they are very slow and their damage is poor for their cost. They have a great defensive profile but because they are so slow it is difficult to leverage their defenses since opponents can just ignore that unit. Protectors are good at dropping into a specific location and grinding it out there for the rest of the game, but this season favours splitting and teleporting around the board to score Battle Tactics. Finally, a 2+ Save doesn't mean much when people are casting Blizzard every turn :P In another army Protectors would be a great unit, but Stormcast armies have better options we can bring instead. Vigilors do poor damage for 150p and they're not battleline, so they compete with other utility pieces like the Incantor and Relictor. +1 Hit is nice, but it requires wounding the target (3+/3+/-1 can certainly fail to connect) and it only lasts for your turn. It also requires being within 18" of the enemy, which means you are going to get charged next turn. +1 Hit can easily be gained from All-Out Attack, and while Vigilors save you some command points and their effect cannot be denied by units like the Command Corps, the value of command points is difficult to discern since we tend to generate enough already. Overall they are just an underwhelming unit! Hurricanes can put out a lot of shots but their damage is comparable to Crossbow Judicators, who have the same range but also fill Battleline slots. Hurricanes start to get useful if you play against a lot of 5+ Save armies, but there aren't enough of those in the game right now to justify bringing them. To get the most out of them you want to combo them with effects that reduce enemy saves like the Purple Sun and Krondys, but by the time you add all that into a list and fill battleline slots you don't have a great list. It's unfortunate that Hurricanes don't have a great niche, because they have been one of my favourite units since they came out in 2017!
Yes, but with shields they get a +1 bonus Yes, not technically the same as a flat 3+ save like Vindictors, but they still have a better save than Vanquishers
Do you mean immunity to shooting from >12" away? That would be pretty neat. It may not be imbalanced because of how many spells and other abilities can still destroy the fragile Longstrikes, but effects that stop your opponent from being able to interact with your units are tough to balance and generally aren't fun to play against
@@TheStormkeep You'd have to work just a little harder to kill a whole unit with one shark. Maybe the best solution is to just include them in the unit as free ablative wounds.
@@rotm4447 It would be cool if Raptors set up 3 Aetherwings at the start of the game for free. You would probably have to increase the cost of Longstrikes?
Personally I think the judicators with boltstorm crossbow are much worse than the vanguard raptor hurricane (crossbow 8 3 3 - 1) (hurricane 12 3 3 - 1), vigilors are personally good for the +1 hit,
@@TheStormkeep I don't agree, because the Huirrican judicators if the shot goes in they double the shots so if you have 13 attacks which eventually become 26 at 3 3 - 1
@@Dirk_Daring Crossbow Judicators also double their shots, so 8 attack turns into 16. When you add in the 6 max damage Rend-2 Thunderbolt Crossbow on the Prime, against most targets the Judicators end up dealing more damage while also having more wounds and filling a Battleline slot! It's also really hard to justify bringing a shooting unit with no Rend when the game is full of units that can easily reach 2+ Saves... Hurricanes shine when you can reduce enemy saves (Krondys, Purple Sun, Geminids, etc.) but that costs a lot of points and requires casting risky spells.
Dracolines do this kind of counter-attacking (typically called a 'riposte') much better than Concussors! Fulminators without the charge bonus still do pretty close damage to Concussors (only lose 1 max damage per rider) and it's not worth the 30p gap to give up all that charge damage that Fulminators can do in the right situation
