UTA Should Buy FLIRTs 

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We enthusiastically support the front runner forward initiative supported by $316M federal + $500M from the state. We ask UTA to purchase made in Utah diesel electric Stadler FLIRTs. We also enthusiastically support the RIO GRAND PLAN in Salt Lake City.

Flirts have been around here in Switzerland for 20 years. They've made commuting here more accessible, faster, and more comfortable. It's interesting to see that they, as well as similar multiple units from Siemens, CAF or Alstom, only now start to catch on on the American continent. The Flirts being built in the Salt Lake City factory now might help popularizing them. I'm glad that you're recognizing the advantages of this light, fast and versatile platform, and hope that decision maker will do so, too!

Greetings from Wales in the UK. As a railwayman with 38 years of experience I've just started working Flirt units. They are great !!! The unit we are are working at the moment is all diesel. The acceleration is incredible. We will shortly be taking delivery of tri mode Flirts (electric, diesel and battery) as well. I can't recommend them highly enough.

Yes, this needs to happen.. Let’s get some flirts UTA! Future proof makes so much sense..

Thank you for making this video and raising awareness, I have lived in Utah for 23 years now, and want to see it grow in the best ways possible. I think the grant we received is one of the most crucial moments in Utah’s future!

As a Brit it does amaze me how fixated American rail is on loco-hauled commuter trains; much as I love locos as a rail enthusiast, in practice they're best for freight and some (but not all) intercity services, for high frequency mass transport multiple-unit operation is generally far better; US style push-pull loco-haul working is just a compromise with all the problems of non-distributed drive, fixed power regardless of train length, etc, that you discussed. While every country and system does have unique characteristics that might necessitate a unique solution, in most cases there is a benefit to looking at what other countries do. And Europe and East Asia do commuter rail far better than the US. Regarding the Flirts, the UK 'bi-mode' (diesel and 25kV electric) ones shown in the video have phenomenal acceleration; in electric mode they can accelerate at 1.0 metre per second per second (the same as the most impressive Underground trains in London), but even in diesel mode they move like 'sh*t off a shovel' as we say here. If you couple that acceleration with 90mph running you shorten journey times to the extent that not only will you bring more people off the roads, you will also need fewer sets to run your service - it might only be a 10% reduction of fleet size, but that's equivalent to bringing your $58k per seat down to $52k; add in the general efficiencies of MU operation and you can see why the rest of the world started switching to this sort of commuter train a century ago. Anyway, it's good to see that there is this sort of investment happening, whether it's loco-hauled push-pull working or Flirt DEMUs, the trains are far better than adding more lanes to the highways.

To be honest, I think that UTA should actually go for the KISS instead mainly since they can actually reach a similar top speed and be as efficient and not to mention that they have a bilevel design like the coaches and cab cars made by Bombardier/Alstom which would increase capacity and are also just as modular as the FLIRTs.

UTA using its own right of way is a big plus for this too. Since the commuter trains don't have to mingle with the big freight trains, they may not need to adhere to the stringent FRA crash and weight standards that are typically a hurdle for making this sort of move.

This is actually great timing as UDOT is also considering DMUs for the point of the mountain transit project. They would use DMUs as a shuttle that would start at the Draper frontrunner station, travel through "the point" development area, cross over I-15 to the area in front of Pluralsight, and then continue through UTAs rail right of way to Lehi. Definitely worse than just extending the blue line south,, but I'm all for it if it gets Utah some Flirts! Edit: The more that I think about this, UTA could incorporate this "branch line" to lehi into the main frontrunner trackage. Then the DMU could travel back and forth between SLC and Lehi. If someone wanted to get from the airport to silicon slopes, they would only need to make 1 seat change which would be incredible.

Thanks for the this nice video, some random points: • The “pedestrian observations” blog has been pushing for the use of European multiple units for years, granted, it's not a youtube channel. • One reason the Stadler trains are lighter is that the shells are aluminium, the RM transit video where he visits the Stadler factory explains that. • Electrifying or using batteries instead of diesel has the advantage of allowing regenerative braking, i.e. recapture electrical power when braking. • Double deckers have the drawback of having a lower door/seat ratio, resulting in slower alighting and boarding. Because of this, the Swiss Federal railway (where Flirt and Kiss train-sets were introduced firsts) is considering going back to single deckers for lines with very busy commuter stations, in order to minimise the time the train waits. • Multiple-units have the advantage of not wasting space in the station, people can board the full length of the train. The locomotive is typically "dead-track”: no passenger can board there.

I hope you can electify the frontrunner it one day.

Love the video. Viva Rio Grande!

Good luck with this and remember, the less stress on rolling stock and permanent way means a more reliable system and a happier patronage.

The Bi-Mode Flirt already comes with some battery power/storage. Energy from braking is now stored in batteries and is used to boost the power when accelerating. So they are a hybrid just like the Toyota Prius. That is how they are almost just as quick to accelerate when running on diesel power as they are on 25kV.

Reached out to the city via email, and they are anticipating receiving the reconnecting communities funds in the next couple of months. They say the study itself will then take about 2 years. So, still exciting, but might take a little longer than what us stated in the video.

Im applying for a job with UTA. If I get it, I will absolutely forward this video to management!!!

Metrolink is using Flirts on the new arrow service right now in the greater LA area. They should really consider transitioning to a full flirt fleet after the SCORE program is complete and all the lines are operating at 30 minute frequencies.

you make a very convincing case

Makes sense to me. The transit in Salt Lake city is far ahead of many cities in North America.

EMU's are preferred but DEMU's will work too! Great Western Railway also just launched their BEMU commuter rail service using rapid charging at end stops using a ground-based power charger under the train which eliminates the need for diesel at all! Even better! Alberta is also FLIRTING with commuter rail service, pun intended, but isn't sure whether to go the Alstom Coradia iLint with hydrogen electric or something else. As someone with asthma, as long as its 100% emissions free at the tailpipe? I am agnostic... But that does rule out diesel...

UTA could also get SC44s that would remove scrapping to much equipment, they should also refurbish the bbl coaches to similar what metrolink is doing with theirs (removes issues with electrification along UP freight tracks)

Check out the PATCO electric line that runs from suburban NJ into Philadelphia. I’ve ridden it in the 70’s and even a couple of weeks ago .

Congrats, you broke my record on number of tabs opened.

Great video, and you didn't even feel the need to go into how FLIRTs have a better ride quality and less creaking in general.

Great video! I agree that investing in the FLIRT model trains would be a great move, less demands on rails and capacity to run at higher speeds!!! How does this video & its information get to those who make these decisions! So many places I. The US would benefit from these FLIRT trains: Georgia, Midwest cities Detroit-Toledo-Dayton/Cincy-Lexington-Knoxville-Atlanta!!!

One thing to note is you wouldn't really be able to take advantage of the FLIRTs until the entire fleet is made up of FLIRTs since if you want a nice clockface schedule, the speed you can run is dictated by the slowest worst accelerating train. If the UTA gets FLIRTS for its fleet expansion, it would probably be at least a decade before they can improve speed since the diesels and bilevels would still be in good working order and it would be wasteful IMO to end their service prematurely. It's also worth noting that if the UTA went with more traditional loco hauled bilevels, they'd probably be able to get many of their coaches and locos from Caltrain, which will very soon be dramatically reducing the size of their diesel fleet. They can also maybe get some more locos from MARC, as with the new Baltimore tunnel opening in 10-15 years, Amtrak is forcing MARC to run all electric trains on the Penn line.

However, I would still prefer feasible ability for UP 4014 to be able run on Frontrunner track over having overhead electrical power for Frontrunner. Steam power is still the most iconic image of the train even though that tech was abandoned for diesel in the 60s. Nothing can get the feel of the iron horse better than the steam locomotive. Besides, if a high altitude EMP missle is fired at the USA, diesel and electric designs would be dead, leaving the steam locomotive to be the only one useable in that situation due to the antiquated design.

I think a good alternative when they do get FLIRTs maybe for an express commuter service they can get Bombardier Multilvel coaches, being able to have lowered and leveled boarding

This video is very well narrated

Update: i looks like UTA is going to buy battery electric flirts so they can do partial electrification

I've read in Railway Gazette that Stadler are adapting their battery variant Flirts at SLC to meet FRA regs. Bi-mode (diesel/battery) might be worth consideration for Frontrunner services since regenerative braking is then available further reducing fuel consumption, the more so if out of service or fast charge recharging facilities are provided at strategic points of the network. Do off peak passenger levels require 4 car provision? I ask because in my part of the world we have both 4 and 3 car units. Whereas the 4 car units require 4 diesel generators the 3 car units manage close to the same amount of grunt utilising only 2. All have the capability to be worked in multiple.

FLIRTs make way more sense. And buying from a local manufacturer

Retired pax railroader here. What you propose does have merit...IF. If there is a complete transition to a new vehicle then there is real potential for savings and incremental improvement. As a mechanic I can say it is a pain to maintain multiple types/designs of vehicles. Also, as pointed out, the performance profiles are very different. And there is the benefit of "keeping the money local" with a manufacturer in state. Wish you luck on this one.

Not all the platforms are that long. Ogden, Layton, Farmington, and Salt Lake Central are the only ones that are long enough for 10 cars. DMU's from Stadlar are a great idea, and I hope UTA does decide to go with that. Also, in my humble opinion, DMUs are a better option than fully electric...although it does not happen often, it does happen: Power failure. A DMU is not dead in the water if the power goes out. Yes signals will be affected, and you have to operate by a different set of rules which will slow things down, but you will still be moving. Thanks for the video, cheers.

Electrify your braking and acceleration runs. Size your diesel engines for maintaining speed not for acceleration. When you don't need a lot of energy storage for maintaining speed but just the ability to absorb a bunch of energy quickly for braking and dump a bunch of energy quickly for accelerating, double layer caps and flywheels make more sense than batteries especially if they can be stored track side rather than on vehicle.

I would propose to not use DMU Flirts but EMUs that can run on battery. This could bring the advantage that you would not need to electrify the whole route but only the termini where the batteries could load. Here in germany they are used since a few months and while there were some problems to Start with its still a great idea. The Maximum distance is currently about a 100 miles which could work? Maybe let me know for further information

We need a 2 track system instead of what we have now

They don't need more trains, they need to use their trains more efficiently. Last I checked a lot of frontrunner is single tracked, so trains wait a lot for tracks to be cleared.

as a current employee with uta i can tell you this even if they where to get Stadler trains they would probably still run them at the current set speeds to keep from having to perform more frequent rail line inspections as that takes more man hours and cost more money

Thank goodness. The original way they did this - making it car dependent - was really stupid. We need frequent service, added service from front runner to east west edges of the valleys, and robust bike networks all over cities that meet front runner and bus.

This is awesome. I was annoyed by the long waits and diesel smoke. I hope this will continue to be expanded overtime making Utah better connected.

Would the platform heights need to be reworked for flirts? I doubt the boarding height is the same as the bi levels.

Where can I find a pic of that thumbnail photo? It looks awesome!

I agree with everything you've said except one thing. FLIRTs aren't a bi-level setup like the current Frontrunner is. I'd prefer to have this setup for the Frontrunner because separating things like bikes, wheel chairs and the priority seating on the bottom levels from the regular seating found on the top levels is something that needs to stay. Therefore what we need is something similar to the FLIRTs and KISS. A bi-level multi-unit (like the kiss) with the same diesel engine in the center (like the FLIRTs) for sections that don't have overhead wires. Otherwise, excellent video.

You made comments about how many people a FLIRT can carry and how you could add extra consists for more capacity However you didn’t mention at all how much each front runner bi level cars can carry. It is possible for a FLIRT to never have the carrying capacity for a similar size train as the front runner. Also the locomotives front runner uses do have the electric braking, it is called dynamic brakes and a lot of diesel locomotives have had that ever since it was first created in the 1950s It is typically used for hills though because it takes awhile to actually stop using that which is why everything still has the more common brake shoes which press against the wheel

I like your ideas and arguements that you put forth in this video however, I my self, and a lot of the people I know really love the double decker trains that we already have. Would something like stadler's kiss trains work instead of their flirt trains?

Wouldn't there be less room for bikes if we don't have the bi-level cars anymore?

If you're going to buy FLIRTS make sure they're convertible from DMU's to EMU's in the future. If you have a dedicated corridor with frequent trains making frequent stops then electrification is the way to go. The FLIRTS that TexRail are ordering have the central diesel power pack in the middle. The diesel engine could be lifted out and replaced with a transformer and a pantograph added on the roof. Future proof the trains now so that when money comes available for electrification you don't need to order more trains. Of course keeping and adding to the Bombardier fleet and buying ACS-64's in the future would work as well. There's always a market for used passenger diesel locomotives for new startup's elsewhere.

Front runner seems to have no interest in changing rolling stock for now with all their actions point to the bi levels pulled by locos lasting for another 15-20 years. UTA is getting used cars from COASTER with options to buy all of COASTERs cars in the future if coaster wants to sell them. right they've got 18 locos, 22 cab cars and 16 coaches. 5 coaches are coming from COASTER now which means 18 locos, 22 cab cars and 21 coaches. Those cars are just coming so they can begin to overhaul their existing fleet. thats enough for them to run 15-16 2 car trains or more likely till they can get more coaches 13 3 car trains. UTA is also moving towards all the MP36 being EPA T2 which is the best these engines can do without a replacement prime mover. As of now 9 units meet that. there is 0 issue coupling and uncoupling the bi level cars if they wanted to. the couplers are lightly modified from freight units and the electrical connections get reconnected all the time on other services. given the higher performance of EMUs they may not need 20 sets to meet the rolling stock requirements, and if they followed stadlers upkeep practices they could get away with 1 or no spares.

Did UTA get rid of the comet cars yet ?

ITS GONNA BE BILLIONS.. WHO HERE KNOWS A RICH GRANDMA

If the FLIRTs supplement the diesels and coaches I will be happy because the frontrunner will basically be a multicultural railway. With a blend of North American and European-styled commuter trains. If the FLIRTs *replace* the existing rolling stock I will not be happy because it will basically be continued Europeanization of American railways. North America should stand out in terms of railways, not be assimilated into European rail. The UK and Japan will be the only railway countries I will be really interested in railfanning in should American railways just turn into a clone of European railways.

You know if the state spent the money on a DMU KISS you would have a product capable of also competing for the super liner replacement. Flirts are ok but KISS are even better.

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Bilevel cars can cost a million less ordered in bulk.

Salt Lake City could use a fully automated light metro like Vancouver's Skytrain. But at least they're flirting with commuter rail. Or should it be FLIRTing instead? 😏

If you're reading this, send this video to your Utah state rep!

Better yet, they should make the capital investment in electrifying the whole line. Electric catenary wire may cost a lot to install but it pays itself back really fast, because you can use power sources that are more economical than diesel fuel. Diesel engines are also dead weight.

The Stadler Flirts I 've been on were horrible !!

All US commuter rail systems that are planning fleet replacements should go with the FLIRT, or a similar DEMU. Loco-hauled trains are 200 year old technology.

I would counter that UTA should start planning for electrification ASAP and buy both FLIRTs and KISSes, maybe taking delivery of the FLIRTs a little earlier to provide capacity expansion then using the KISS order to replace the existing bilevel equipment.

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I wish Chicago would get these. They are by 2027 on one line. But you guys have all that frequent service granted you only have one line but it'd be nice if Chicago's metra would run like every 15 or 30 minutes all day everyday including Sundays. Early morning till 1:00 in the morning.

let him cook

Don’t think it will fit into the current Uta shop.

easy. they are the only true level boarding DMU in the United States. normalize DMU usage in the US.

i hope stadlers get used in Oklahoma city's commuter line

I needed to know why don’t dig a tunnel and do an extension for the main line Train so that they can extend the unused abandoned underground train stations. Why couldn’t they use the part D78 Stock train doors on the sides and also restructure the front face of the A60 and A62 stock and that includes the class 313, class 314 and class 315 remix and make them all together and also redesign them an overhead line and also make them into Five cars per units and also having three Disabled Toilets on that Five cars per units A60 and A62 stock trains and also convert the A60 and A62 stock trains into a Scania N112, Volvo B10M, Gardner 6LXB, Gardner 6LXC and Gardner 8LXB Diesel Engines and also put the Loud 7-Speed Voith Gearboxes even Loud 8-Speed Leyland Hydra cyclic Gearboxes in the A60 and A62 stock, class 313, class 314, and class 315 and also modernise the A60 and A62 stock and make it into an 11 car per unit so it could have fewer doors, more tables, computers and mobile phone chargers. A Stock Trains and also having 8 Disabled Toilets on those A stock trains. Why couldn’t we refurbish and modernise the Waterloo and city line Triple-Track train tunnel and make it more Larger and extend it to the bank station, making it into a Triple-Track Railway Line so those Five countries such as Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden to convert the waterloo and city line Triple-Track Railway tunnel into a High-Speed Railway lines? The Third Euro tunnel Triple-Track Railway line to make it 11 times better for passengers so they could go from A to B. Then put the modernised 11 car per unit A Stock and put them on a bigger modernised Waterloo and city line Triple-Track train tunnel so it could go to bank station to those Five countries such as Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden. The modernised refurbished 11 cars per unit A stock could be a High Speed The Third Triple-Track Euro Tunnel Train So it is promising and 47 times a lot more possible to do this kind of project if that will be OK for London Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden. oh by the way, could they also tunnel the Triple-Track Railway Line so it will stop from Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire and Essex so that the Passengers will go to Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland and Sweden and also extend the Triple-Track Railway Line from the Bank to Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire and Essex Stations so that more people from there could go to Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden more Easily. Why couldn't they extend the Piccadilly Line and also build brand-new underground train stations so it could go even further right up to Clapton, Wood Street can they also make another brand new underground train station in Chingford and could they extend the Piccadilly Line and the DLR right up to Chingford? All of the classes 150, 155, 154, 117, 114, 105, and 106, will be replaced by all of the Scania N112, Volvo B10M, Gardner 6LXB, Gardner 6LXC and Gardner 8LXB Diesel Five carriages three disabled toilets are air conditioning trains including Highams Park for extended roots which is the Piccadilly line and the DLR trains. Could you also convert all of the 1973 stock trains into an air-conditioned maximum speed 78 km/hours (48 MPH) re-refurbished and make it into a 8 cars per unit if that will be alright, and also extend all of the Piccadilly train stations to make more space for all of the extended 8 car per unit 1973 stock air condition trains and can you also build another Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive Companies and can they order Every 37 Octagon and Every 17 Hexagon shape LNER diagram unique small no.13 and unique small no.11 Boilers from those Countries such as Greece, Italy, Poland, and Sweden, can they make Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive speeds by up to 142MPH so you can try and test it on the Original Mainline so it will be much more safer for the Passengers to enjoy the 142MPH speed Limit only for HS2 and Channel Tunnel mainline services, if they needed 16 Carriages Per units, can they use those class 55’s, class 44’s, class 40’s and class 43HST Diesel Locomotive’s right at the Back of those 18 Carriages Per Units so they can take over at the Back to let those Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive’s have a rest for those interesting Journeys Please!!!!!!!, oh can you make all of those Coal Boxes’s 17 Tonnes for all of those 142MPH Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive’s so the Companies will Understand us PASSENGER’S!! so please make sure that the Builders can do as they are told!!!!! And please do something about these very very important Professional ideas Please? Prime Minister of England, Prime Minister of Australia, Prime Minister of Sweden, Prime Minister of Germany, Prime Minister of Italy, Prime Minister of Poland and that Includes the Mayor of London.

Please don't look directly at the camera like that, it's creepy. And the audio is a bit too quiet, the commentary especially.

here are five things why they should buy Bi-Levels and Traxx engines. 1. Stadler flirts are not made to run at 90 MPH their ride quality already sucks at 60 MPH. 2. They would need at least 2 times a 4 car train or 1 8 car unit to get the capacity of the 3 Bi-Levels this would also need two power packs. 3. the floor of a Stadler flirt is at 350mm above the rail head this measurement is the standard hight of a European station platform. There will always be a big step up to the train unless they reconstruct all platforms at the stations. 4. Stadler flirts are build cheap and only have a live expectancy of twenty years normally this is fifty years. 5. Buying Bi-Levels will help having a unified fleet wich brings down operation and maintenance cost. it will still be possible to lengthen trains in the future to 4 or 5 car sets. this is my opinion as a European and user of these Stadler units. If you ask Europeans wich are their favorite trains the Stadler flirt is not one of them.

I don't think UTA will buy FLIRTs. They'll probably get Siemens SC-44 Chargers and matching Venture sets.

No. SCREW FLIRT! Bombardier forever!

Just buy a car

Why does the USA not adopt the European style DMU or EMU trains instead of these old style Bi level cars and gas guzzling locomotives.

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