Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodbonds & Diablerie (Lore)

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After discussing the lore of Vampire: The Masquerade's Ventrue, we now return to the more general videos.
This time we discuss the Bloodbonds, the supernatural way a kindred can control others, both ghouls and other cainites, and the Diablerie, the Amaranth, the forbidden act of consuming another Vampire's soul.
Starting next week, we will have a short series on Changeling: the Lost, since I will begin streaming a Chronicle of it in October on The Onyx Path's official Twitch stream. I hope my vampire fans can permit me this indulgence and the break from our usual content.
If you spot any inconsistencies or inaccuracies in my videos, let me know in the comments. RU-vid doesn't allow annotations anymore, but I'll make a pinned post with any corrections.
Thank you very much for watching!
---
Thank you to thornedembers for making my avatar! If you're looking for an amazing artist, go check them out on twitter! / thornedembers
★ / theprimogen ★
My patreon exists primarily to help motivate me to keep making these videos (I work best under pressure). If you feel like helping me out, a dollar is all it takes to get access to behind the scenes stuff, polls and so forth.
★ / theprimogen ★
Follow me on Twitter where I'll post quick little updates, thoughts on the games I'm covering and the occasional thinking out loud about editions and lore.
Music from filmmusic.io
"Sovereign" by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
"Oppressive Gloom" by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
License: CC BY (creativecommons...)

Опубликовано:

29 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 87

@sedrickjones5675 4 года назад

"If creatures so ancient and powerful could be destroyed, then what do the young truly have to fear from the old?" That's deep

@ThePrimogen 3 года назад

Thank you! I wanted to hint at my upcoming videos on the Anarch movement with that quote and I think something similar was the rallying cry behind the Sabbat as well.

@Nyrufa Год назад

Try to imagine the strength of will that an elder vampire needs to have in order to survive for centuries without going insane in the process. That's something many fresh neonates don't take into account, before they attempt to consume their souls and usurp their power.

@tomacalin86 5 месяцев назад

OK. just an odd question. if a neonate completely drains another neonate of the same generation and of a different clan.. does that carry any benefits like gaining power, potency etc or is it just like drinking from a normal kine, as they do not have a potent enough blood? Would it still stain the aura and would it still be called a diablerie/amaranth proper?

@atomicash2475 4 года назад

I could totally imagine 2 bloodbond kindred, were one was dying and the other preformed diablare. To trying keep their other and get power for revenge

@ThePrimogen 4 года назад

Hmm... that would be a truly desperate move, but if they knew about it and voluntarily let the soul take a place in theirs... it's crazy enough to work!

@happiestaku6646 3 года назад

@@ThePrimogen crazy enough for a Malkavian to do

@Sharkakaka 2 года назад

@@ThePrimogen they would probably be sharing the body with one of them in the passenger seat not being able to do anything. Maybe with some discipline they could try to get one of them into another body like the mage Tremere did when Saulot possessed him

@DarkAdonisVyers 3 года назад

I know that, in terms of diablerie, there is always a chance of the "food" possessing the "eater" if the "food" is a powerful vampire, like an Antediluvian. However, would it be possible for a single vampire to be diablerized by several others? If so, wouldn't that decrease the chances of "indigestion", or what, do we get a clone situation where the soul of the "food" possesses its multiple "eaters"?

@ThePrimogen 3 года назад

The Tremere have developed a ritual for mass diablerie but otherwise only one kindred may consume the “heart’s blood” of the other. It’s unsure what happens to the group of Tremere however.

@DarkAdonisVyers 3 года назад

@@ThePrimogen So 1 "true" diablerist, while the others would just get a very small boost from the elder's blood?

@michaelmclaughlin261 2 года назад

"Nectar of the Bitter Rose" and it is a very rare ritual.

@stephenflint3640 2 года назад

@@DarkAdonisVyers so, it in essence works like how in One Piece, the devil fruits can be eaten by only one person; even if its only a single bite, that individual eater can't pass the rest to others to share the power of one fruit.

@brianlewolfhunt 2 года назад

Blood bonds and Diablerie are of particular interest to me in this world. Blood bonds seem to be the most useful of all of a vampire's tools, even beyond the discipline of domination. Heck, ghouling and animalism are extensions of the blood bond, and even something as simple as having someone protect you while you are sleeping is invaluable to a vampire trying to survive. Additionally, if only a few drops are needed to start establishing a bond, then I can see a situation where a host could slip a few drops of their own blood in the drinks of their guests, hoping to bond a large group of kine or kindred. I wonder if this is a practice that isn't unusual among princes or keepers of elysiums. Diablerie, at least in my mind, seems like one of the only ways vampires as a species can attempt self sufficiency. They can't produce perfectly viable offspring. Every childer is, and will always be, a little bit weaker than their sire. What's worse, vampires become both more and less as they age. More powerful, but seemingly less in control and requiring more powerful blood (if the wiki is to be believed). So with older vamps needing stronger blood to survive and younger vamps getting increasingly weaker blood, the extinction of vampires seems to be a certainty. Diablerie seems to be the only easily accessible way of a younger kindred to strengthen their blood, providing at least a temporary stalemate. It's not a great solution, but it's what they have.

@Sharkakaka 2 года назад

Actually there is a Banu Haqim ritual that allows for the refinement of blood and vitae, it was originally designed to cope with our diablerie addiction due to the curse we received but it can easily be repurposed and perfected to help with the elders situation. Still an inefficient procedure but we can get more creative and get other things to work.

@Huddyvonschland 5 лет назад

Thorough, bite-sized, excellent video. Thanks, Primogen!

@ThePrimogen 5 лет назад

Thank you very much for the great feedback! I really appreciate you taking the time to watch my content! :D

@maxschreck9988 5 лет назад

It is always a pleasure to wake up to find out you updated. Great as usual, man.

@ThePrimogen 5 лет назад

The pleasure is mine when I see that people enjoy the content! :) Thanks for the support!

@oskarringdahl7241 5 лет назад

I'm getting an unhealthy apetite for these videos.

@ThePrimogen 5 лет назад

Thanks for the support! :D

@KC-xg7gs 4 года назад

I'm amazed that I never found your videos before now, given how much I adore the Lore found in White Wolf's games. You, sir, have a new subscriber. *goes to binge-watch the other videos*

@ThePrimogen 4 года назад

Hi! It happens, I'm fairly new to the scene and I'm super happy you did find me! Hope you'll enjoy the stuff!

@KC-xg7gs 4 года назад

@@ThePrimogen I plan to! Maybe in the future, if it strikes your fancy, you'll do videos going over the various bloodlines connected to the major clans.

@ThePrimogen 4 года назад

I can guarantee that bloodlines are coming soon. I need to figure out if each will get their own video or not however. Right now I’m considering doing a video or two about the humanity/path system in between Sabbat and Anarchs.

@FordyTheConeSmoker 3 года назад

As always Diablare would be my first choice to gain power honestly

@יובלרוט Год назад

It has the problem of being attached to a much older vampire usually, so it isn't easy power up.

@FordyTheConeSmoker Год назад

@@יובלרוט I know but it’s always worth the risk to a Ravnos 😎

@enexe6229 Год назад

@@FordyTheConeSmoker better to learn assamite rituals or find malkav's blood

@CHSchneeWolf 4 года назад

If a Vampire feeds on another vampire wouldnt he enslave himself to the "target"?

@ThePrimogen 4 года назад

The first step of feeding does make the one who drinks the blood more inclined to think of and want to be near the vampire they drank from, but mechanically there are no rules imposed, it is strictly a roleplaying thing. It also disappears after a while as well and even the most powerful blood bond can eventually be eroded through time.

@DarkAdonisVyers 3 года назад

The Banu Haqim are aligned with the Camarilla now, right? So, uh... How's that affect the Banu Haqim's "diablerie culture"?

@Sharkakaka 2 года назад

We are trying to control ourselves but in blood hunts we can diablerize as much as we want if people get condemned. It also just happens that the treat of us doing the ultimate succ keeps others in line more often than not.

@trevor7861 8 месяцев назад

Is it possible to have a kindred drain another to death without committing diablerie? I’ve got a player who’s a blood leech. I doubt he wants to lower his blood potency…

@ThePrimogen 7 месяцев назад

Yes it’s possible! Diablerie is a willful act. It can only be done deliberately because you have to want to consume someone’s soul

@ThePrimogen 7 месяцев назад

To death however, not so sure. Torpor absolutely, but a drained vampire doesn’t die but they will be rendered very weak and vulnerable

@trevor7861 7 месяцев назад

@@ThePrimogen thank you!

@drthunda7485 3 года назад

So what happens if a member of the Camarilla diablerizes a member of the sabbat like if the 2 got into a fight and the only way to survive was to drink the sabbat dry would it still be seen as a horrible crime or would it be seen more as just a part of war I'm new too vtm so I'm sorry if this is a stupid question

@ThePrimogen 3 года назад

Not a stupid question at all. You *can* kill a Kindred by draining them, but not committing Diablerie. Diablerie is a conscious action you need to commit willfully, which is why it doesn't happen if a vampire frenzies. That being said, Diablerie is generally scorned upon *regardless of who is killed*, so it wouldn't earn you any friends in the Camarilla, although it might be begrudgingly accepted. Keep in mind too that they don't know *who* you diablerized, just that the stains show up in your aura, so it's possible you diablerized someone not of the Camarilla and are just making up lies to get away with it.

@drthunda7485 3 года назад

@@ThePrimogen hmm very true and interesting thank you for the reply

@guavaburst 4 года назад

Thanks for the great video. My friends and I are new players in a campaign that has only been running for a few weeks. This information has been very useful in helping form my decision for my character in *NOT* diablerising the current Prince who our coterie is about to find somewhere (probably staked). I think I'll just help him out and call in a favour later...

@ThePrimogen 4 года назад

Hey! I'm glad you enjoyed and found use of this video! It's always very encouraging for me to hear newer players' opinions and views because part of the goal of this channel is to help digest the massive amount of backstory for this game for newer generations of players. That DOES sound like a wise decision too, I'm sure the Prince will reward you handsomely in return... or at least owe you a big Boon. ;)

@michaelmclaughlin261 2 года назад

....unless you are an elder with massive amounts of power, Diablerie is always an invitation to have someone else make a patsy out of you.

@qinop 5 лет назад

Hey this is pretty good. I'm surprised you're not more popular

@ThePrimogen 5 лет назад

Hey thanks! :D I'm still pretty new so I'm happy with most any attention I get! I'm glad you like my content!

@jamescordial3975 4 года назад

They just don't know whats good yet.

@Sharkakaka 2 года назад

A problem with the blood bond is when the thrall becomes to obsessed with their master, like a "who was that person you were talking to? You aren't planning to cheat on me by giving your vitae to someone else right? You are 5 minutes late, who were you with? Maybe I will need to kidnap you to make sure we are together FOREVER! Just joking~ or am I?"

@GrandGoblin Год назад

Could a Sire "Farm" Diablerie by embracing people and then diablerizing them without notifying the prince? There are plenty of drifters and bums that could easily go missing before another Kindred noticed. I have no idea if it would do anything since the Sire must feed their victim vitae for the embrace to work. Would feeding on a newly embraced kindred just be a return of your own vitae?

@gypsyg9612 Год назад

Theoratically I think you could, dont neccesarily see a reason why you would.. Imagine your at hunger 4.. You drain a person entirely of all of his blood leaving you at hunger 0, you then cut your arm and use your will to force blood out of the wound (takes one rouse check) possibly placing you back at hunger 1.. The kindred that you just sired would be at hunger 5 meaning you cannot drink any blood normally from him.. you could then diablarize the newly sired kindred devouring the soul taking you back to hunger 0.. There is very little reason however to be doing so because your destroying your own soul in the progress which is kind of a big deal.. Other hand diablery it is also the only reliable way to stop the beckoning and withering. I wouldnt recommend doing so on a "humanity" path of enlightement. But there have being kindred that have done worse.

@glenmcinnes4824 10 месяцев назад

There is a difference between Aramath (hope I spelt it right) and Diablerie, many Elders can not sustain themselves on Human Blood anymore, so they Embrace people, they feed them blood and and chain them up over the day than chow down the next night giving them a final death.

@TheCyberguy101 Год назад

Anyone have any ideas into tricking someone into drinking your vitae? I'm tremere so I gotta do 5 days.

@cyrolocker1229 2 года назад

I’m curious if the inquisition could use the marks on a vampires soul to detect vampires if they consumed another

@nineflames2863 4 года назад

Okay, so I've been playing Bloodlines for a while now; it's my first foray into the World of Darkness and I've been watching your videos about the setting to get a feel for the lore. Anyway, there is that one quest (Thinned Blood) you get in Santa Monica where you're tasked with looking for a thinblood kindred named Lily. Turns out she got kidnapped and held as a "donor" by the bloodbank. Now here's the thing: Wouldn't that have ended up binding every single kindred and every person who got an infusion with that blood to Lily? In fact, shouldn't it already have happened by the time the player frees her? She must have been down there for quite some time after all. Can't imagine Therese being too happy with her ghoul's actions there... Another question: If only three feedings are enough to completely bind a subject to their regnant, does that mean any ghoul who has been in service for a few weeks or months is automatically bound to that degree? Would they even be able to leave at that stage? I'm mostly asking because I can't help but feel bad for Heather.

@ThePrimogen 4 года назад

So happy to read your questions and thoughts about the lore! Yeah, blood bonding can be super tricky to work with, and unfortunately it's not always consistent either. The thing to keep in mind with ghouls is that if you only feed on a blood point once a month or so, you will never go beyond the first stage of the bond. A lot of Kindred don't want their ghouls too tightly bound because it means they often begin to act irrationally and can easily become obsessed. It's easier to dangle the fruit of Vitae as a monthly reward for good behaviour and also reimburse them with less addictive things like money or influence. As for Lily, it's quite possible her blood's being used both by Ghouls to circumvent the demands put on them by their Kindred masters, and maybe even sold within their circles as Kindred vitae is precious, even if it's from a thin blood. It's quite likely Vandal has enough knowledge about the Blood bond to ensure nobody gets too much of her stuff. Ultimately though, Heather is definitely affected by the bond, as you can tell from her behaviour in the game. The blood bond is never a good thing; it's intrusive, mental slavery, and definitely not something that would make your humanity rise. Thanks for your questions and I hope that cleared up some of them! :D

@nineflames2863 4 года назад

@@ThePrimogen So the "correct" choice would be to let her go ASAP. At least from my character's point of view since I'm playing someone with high humanity and little understanding of kindred values. After all, the player character's sire was killed immediately and the only tangible advice she got was Jack's "don't kill innocents, don't violate the masquerade, preserve your humanity". Very young, no real guidance, still holds on to her human values. In fact, she probably doesn't even know about the true nature of the blood bond since nobody explained it to her. As far as she knows vitae is somewhat addictive, but ultimately saved Heather's life... And then there's the thing with this being my first playthrough so of course I want to see as much as possible, including interactions with Heather. I'll probably just have her stick around and if it turns out badly I'll chalk it up to a "rookie mistake" and a hard lesson learned for my character, from a role playing perspective.

@ThePrimogen 4 года назад

@@nineflames2863 The morally correct choice would absolutely be to let her go. Being a ghoul involves a person in the nightly affairs of Kindred, significantly increasing their risk of death by associating with you, esp. considering who you are in this game. But I think you're on the right track. It's part of the whole vampire experience to make these kind of mistakes, and to suffer the fallout from them.

@nineflames2863 4 года назад

@@ThePrimogen Tbh, the morality is pretty muddled here. Unless you drive her away immediately before she finds out what you are, it might already be too late for her. After all, past that point she would be a walking thread to the Masquerade and I kind of doubt the Camarilla would just let her live. She's already getting hounded by _something_ (I told her to stay inside and keep a low profile) so letting her go at this point seems like a death sentence to me.

@ThePrimogen 4 года назад

@@nineflames2863 Absolutely! In the best of worlds, you should have told her to leave well enough alone, but now she is your responsibility. In this case, if you *know* she will be killed if you let her go, the moral thing to do would be to protect her. Possibly provide her the money and resources to move, change her identity, etc. in the long run, but for now she must be protected so she won't die. Giving her more of your blood, however, would still remain immoral, unless she was wounded or otherwise needed it to survife.

@Duskwalker68 5 лет назад

Another great video! I'm glad you chose to do one about this topic, the blood bond will be playing a massive role in my solo Chronicle (My Gangrel neonate has a mutual level 1 with a powerful Tzimisce which is likely to keep going up) and Diablerie is a constant threat due to his low generation. Looking forward to your next upload!

@ThePrimogen 5 лет назад

It was a long time coming, wasn't it? It's such a fundamental element to Kindred power structure, after all. :D So happy you enjoyed it, and I'm intrigued by the solo Chronicle. I've never run one, you have to tell me more. :D

@Duskwalker68 5 лет назад

@@ThePrimogen Yeah it really is a massively important thing in the lore. My solo Chronicle is working very similarly to how a regular game would work, but with some differences. This is the first game I've run, though I'm starting a game with a friend starting this week. It seems to run pretty much the same as a normal game would run but with two major differences. Since I'm playing as both a PC and the Storyteller the game moves a lot slower during combat scenes because I have to do every single roll for every character in a scene in addition to calculating combat damage, soaking, blood pool, etc. The other issue is telling the actual story; since I know how I want the story to go but am also playing, it's a bit tough to keep my character from knowing things he shouldn't and being untouchable. I've pretty much been improvising during his first decade or so, just doing things I think the character would do with minimal railroading, and it's gone pretty well so far.

@ThePrimogen 5 лет назад

Dang, that sounds complex, but really cool! I've done similar projects in the past where I've used several OCs of my creation as the "party" of a pre-made adventure, but unfortunately I'm not very good at sticking to these things... Kudos to the dedication!

@Duskwalker68 5 лет назад

@@ThePrimogen Thanks! It's definitely a different experience but I've found it fun to be able to focus on a single character, really lets you focus on immersion and character development.

@therandomheavy4570 Год назад

Hi just wanted to ask I'm starting a new chronicle as a Vassal Ghoul and wanted to ask is the blood bond the same for them or do you have to be kindred?

@nielsdejong 5 лет назад

Once again a great video! Keep up the awesome work :)

@ThePrimogen 5 лет назад

Thank you very much, it means a lot to hear that! :D

@Demolitiondude 5 лет назад

Diablrie is a son of a bitch.

@jacobridgeway2849 2 года назад

Yep, Though it's useful at times.

@AGS363 2 года назад

So the punishment for Diablerie is...Diablerie!?

@Houston810 2 года назад

Vinculum bonds never fade?

@2danandrews 3 года назад

Good

@ThePrimogen 3 года назад

Thanks

@sexualobster7975 2 года назад

So that’s why sir D was so against diablerie

@Chann223 3 года назад

So the blood bond last at least a year?

@christianwhite8877 4 года назад

I have a question is it possible to start with 5 disciplines? I mean in the pin and paper game also if you can what would be the best vampire clan to choose?

@ThePrimogen 4 года назад

Hi Christian! It depends on which system you're using. If you're playing the older ones like 3rd edition, you can technically get an additional three discipline dots if you use 21 Freebie points (starting with 3 and adding 2 for 14 Freebies, then buying 6 points of flaws to get an additional dot for 7 freebies). I wouldn't recommend it though, since you're often better off putting your freebies in background dots, extra willpower or abilities in the beginning. Best clan is entirely subjective and depends on what you think is best. I personally love Tremere and Tzimisce a lot so I would say they're the best; a lot of people think that Tremere are the best in Revised and V20 too, so there's that.

@christianwhite8877 4 года назад

I to like the tremere but I meant in v20 or revised a example could be a malkavien who has both dominate and demonize and thaumaturgy but has all there normal disciplines

@christianwhite8877 4 года назад

Also is there any big difference between say generations 10 to 13

@ThePrimogen 4 года назад

You could have those disciplines, technically, but I would ask your Storyteller first. Mixing disciplines that are very clan specific, like Daimonion and Thaumaturgy, is often not allowed in most games. It also doesn't make a lot of sense in-game for a Malkavian to have learned those abilities so your ST might say no. As for the generation difference, mechanically it's an extra three Blood Points, but lore-wise it's a big difference, since generation 13 would be considered borderline thin-blood by some older kindred.

@christianwhite8877 4 года назад

Thank you also how you could get 5 disciplines is you start with 3 you can get a merit that gives you an extra and your predator type/style in some cases can give you a choice between two that you may not have with 1 point in it to start with