So I've been debating whether to respond here as I feel Bilbron's "summary of my arguments" misrepresents them, presumably unintentially, but nevertheless I feel I need to correct the record. Bilbron, if you read this comment, please feel free in the future to DM me so we can talk about this stuff beforehand and make sure we're actually on the same page when you make a reaction video. In my video, I indentify this as my "main concern" with the devil's sight/darkness combo: Over 4 years ago I made a build video where I recommended Darkness + Devil's Sight on a build. I'm sure I'm not the first person to ever think of this combination, but at the time I had not really seen it talked about online, so I presented it in a build video. Although at the time I had never actually used it or seen it used in play, I knew it could be a potential problem to place other characters in your group in a magical darkness as it invalidates a large number of potential character features, so I made sure to give a warning that a player should consider positioning carefully and to make sure not to screw over the other players by imposing this upon them. Since then I have regularly seen the combo promoted online either in combination with a build or just in general, with either minimal warnings provided about potential conflict with other players or none at all. I have now had multiple experiences as a DM where utilization of this combination without that consideration has created hard feelings among players I've played with. These bad experiences with this combination make me not want to recommend it anymore. This main point did not get even mentioned in Bilbron's "summary of my arguments" and the main reason I am leaving this comment. I point out 2 additional concerns with the combination in this video. These are the concerns Bilbron seems to have taken issue with. 1) I say there are some situations where you can't employ this tactic without interfering with other party members. He ultimately agrees but suggests those situations are less common than I imply, but adds later that he regularly plays with players who don't consider positioning as they should. So we have a difference of opinion on that, no problem. 2) I point out that this combination is presented without discussing it's limitations in reliability. He acknowledges it's not always reliable and that you should have a Plan B and a Plan C, but this combination, like flight and ranged attacks, is really powerful despite not being always reliable. Flight + Ranged attacks is powerful, Devil's Sight + Darkness is powerful, but the difference is that if either of us presented a build using flight plus ranged attacks without acknowledgement about it's limitations we would get pushback. Consider my video pushback on the latter, not a claim that the tactic is ultimately "not viable" mechanically. I would argue that any build utilizing this combination needs the disclaimer that more creatures have special senses that bypass magical darkness than creatures immune to poison. (Also, 70%+ of published official monsters with blindsight have a blindsight range of 60 feet or more, despite what Bilbron claims in this video.)
Has your thoughts on darkness changed? Do you think you are going to ever utilize the combo in a vid again? Also how do both of you guys feel about shadow of moil? Does it block True Sight at your tables? if yes it kinda gets online around the same time as true sight enemies.
I have seen situations where Darkness is perfect but because the majority of players don't plan for it because "It a dick move to use darkness on a party that can't see through it so I won't try," this is insane. Between blind fighting, Eldritch Adept, Warlocks, and Shadow Sorcerer, everyone can get the ability to see through magical darkness fairly easily. Not to mention the possibility of Moon-touched swords and Magical tinkering negating darkness RAW. Work with your darkness caster instead of against and the combat will be more fun.
@@nickm9102 If the viability of Darkness + Devil's Sight relies on the rest of your party picking specific classes/subclasses, feats, and fighting styles, then you're screwing them over as well. Or hoping the DM will give you the magic item you want. Isn't it a dick move to tell the rest of your party "Build your characters around MINE"?
@@juliamedina3322 Planning for a strategy is no different than getting together with everyone for party composition. I'm sure that your group asks who is playing the healer, if not you are expecting the DM to give you the right magic items to stay alive in the campaign. That said the viability of Devil's sight/darkness doesn't rely on the rest of the party picking certain features It works regardless, the question is why wouldn't you want to support your party? Many characters have a go to. So how is it a dick move to tell the other players "this is my go-to strategy and THIS is how you can take advantage of it also.?
I remember both you and I used darkness on a pebble carried by our imp familiars on our genie chainlocks at levels 3+4 to get 2x imp attacks per turn at advantage, while the imp is able to then fly upward out of range of having the darkness impede anything. It was one of the strongest level 3-4 strategies that I've ever seen, rivaling moon druid.
That's literally the first thing that came to my mind. "A Cask of something..." I believe. And totally agree about positioning. Ppl just don't give it enough thought, which imo drives a lot of the armor dips and "melee is dead" meta
Amazing video, I think the reason Treantmonk made this claim originally was because he realized that an unfortunate amount of players don't understand the importance of optimizing based on each individual situation. I believe the point was to keep inexperienced players away from the combo, because as you said, "it's not a beginners build." This is especially meaningful when you note that Treantmonk has a very mainstream audience and will reach a ton of new players and new optimizers and he doesn't want to wave Darkness/Devilsight around in front of them, smart players who are aware of positioning and such will naturally figure out for themselves that it's a good combo.
Agree 💯 2nd paragraph in darkness spell: "If the point you choose is on an object you are holding or one that isn't being worn or carried, the darkness emanates from the object and moves with it. Completely covering the source of the darkness with an opaque object, such as a bowl or a helm, blocks the darkness." You put the darkness spell on a copper coin. And you can put it back in your pocket or like the text suggest under a bowl. Now it doesn't interfere with your party if you desire. Further more you can place that darkness coin all the way at your back line next to a wall. Now it's a 15' half sphere. That should be enough room that your party can pop in and out to cast their offense then hide back in. This gives your rogue a easy way to coming action hide. This spell is so great without devil sight, devil sight just allows you to get advantage (vs not having it). And it lasts 10 minutes potentially giving you 2 full combats.
I've played this combo for defence many times, and also for my allies. 1. An ally caster inside darkness can't be counterspelled if the enemy can't see him while casting the spell. Of course, it works viceversa. 2. A squishy ally is in trouble fighting melee one or more monsters... So include him in your darkness and help him run away without generating Opportunity Attacks, if enemies can't see inside darkness. 3. If you make a ranged weapon or spell attack but an enemy is in 5ft from you, he can't give disadvantage to you if he can't see you. 4. Creatures with attacks based on sight can't be dangerous if they can't see inside your darkness. 5. Cast your darkness on a medallion or something small that you can rapidly hide in a pocket if you want to temporary shut-down the dark area, even with a free action on your turn or a readied action in someone else's turn. 6. If the enemy attacks with advantage for some reason, or if your ally attacks with disadvantage (i.e. for poisoned condition) cast darkness and give them a straight roll. 7. If other sources of advantage + disadvantage are in play and you and your partners already have a straight roll, adding your darkness to the pile won't add "more disadvantage" to your allies, 'cause they don't stack. The roll remains straight, but you block line of sight of ranged enemies etc. There are so many ways to be helpful to your party if you know the rules, the spell and think strategically. And many times the battlefield is so wide and you're fighting so many enemies that using this combo does impact only you without bothering your allies.
Nice analysis, man. As having this combo on the table both as player and DM, I can state that it is very effective especially in lower tiers, and maybe in high tiers eventually issues Treantmonk raised come more often into play. But as you said, if it's a go bag item/trick you can use it in the right opportunities, doesn't kill the fun at all. Anything a player uses all the time, every single combat one trick pony, is more likely to be countered by DM planing (and eventually gets boring af)
Interesting points you raise. I'd disagree that there is a hard line about either view being right or wrong, but rather whether or not it will work for your table.
The object projecting darkness can be carried by many things like mage hand. Also one can just drop it to the most distant corner. Maybe the object is attached to the end of string and you can just throw it were it need to go and pull it back wen you need to ( this works in up/down dimensions also ). Or maybe it could be at the end of ten feet pole? EDIT Or my favorite: a mage hand carrying a ten feet pole! EDIT
Honestly playing a Devil's Sight + Darkness at a casual table can bring more problems. In theory it should be simple and work most of the time, but it can really annoy people who "dont understand the rules" DM: "Okay he cast hold person on you, make a wis save". Me: "no he can´t he cant see me" or DM: "I roll an opportunity attack" Thoes kind of things happend all the time in my darkness, and it is the rules. But for Casual tables who does not know all the rules, it really annoys the DM. Its a shame but because of "How annoying" it was in the next campaign he banned the combo. Not because it was broken, but because it was simply was annoying.
To emphasize a point that you made: a lot of players are bad at positioning. If you are playing in a group with those types of players and anyone is using a potentially party unfriendly mechanic, people will have a bad time. This was my biggest takeaway from Treantmonk's video. People will blame the darkness/devilsight character for their bad time when it comes up, not their own bad positioning.
Isn’t Shadow of Moil the eventual answer? All the good, none of the bad, some extra damage if you get stuck in melee. The only con is you can’t cast it before battle as easily as darkness.
Also the point of origin of the darkness doesn't need to be on the character. You can place it 15 feet behind the party and that way other ranged characters can retreat into it before the end of their turns. You can also cast it on a familiar and have it move around as needed.
Darkness is a great option 2 in my opinion but yeah it can be a really not appropriate in some circumstances but less so if your party leans slightly into it. My character has Melf's Minute Meteors, Darkness (1/day), Create Bonfire (Works surprisingly well with grapple builds), and Summon Aberration as my 4 Concentration options (Hoping to pick up Telekinesis as a potentially final Concentration option next level).
I understand and am glad you are posting again. You are both right though. The tactic is not table friendly even if it is smart player viable. At 90% or way more tables this is not going to work as you do it because most are not going to do what you were thinking. I agree that you could with the right table make it work. Honest truth, this is a zero season discussion to have with the party. If you are all prepared to go solid snake, this also is not an issue. To me the thing is that the spell is really not table friendly and needs tweaking. I hope that they fix it in Next the way suggested making this a moot point.
I love the idea of a party that is specialiced in utilizing heavy obscurement. I think that combining heavy obscurement with blind fighting is sometimes in some ways even better than the devils sight darkness combo, which is so much used/talked about that it's a bit like kicking a dead horse, "yeah yeah we know it's good" add to this that depending on your races choice there are also more fun choices and combo's. (Grung and cloud kill or transmute spell wall of poison. Alternatively Fizbans chromatic dragonborn can also be fun once per long rest in combination to transmute spell. Combining sleet storm with a flying races will have you in stitches about their need for stitches 😂😅 and dipping rogue or being a Marid genie goblin hiding in your own sleet storm.😊)
I feel like people who use darkness aren't using it effectively. They cast it on the enemy and shoot at them. But they can walk out of it and you're a warlock. Cast it on yourself in the backline and even without devils sight you can step out and shoot and step back in.
What is the opportunity cost of leaving this combo in your bag? For a warlock, it's an invocation and a spell. For shadow sorcerers the cost is only sorcery points (well, and forcing a subclass choice when others might be more flexible otherwise). For other classes it might be a mutliclass dip or even a feat. I agree that this combo can be done in a less disruptive way than Treantmonk implies, but it's also true that you can optimize those opportunity resources in other ways that are, lets say, easier to use. Ways that still allow you to be chosen to be affected or unaffected by certain spells. Your hexblade doesn't want to be trying to dart in and out of melee where the cleric has their spirit guardians up that doesn't exclude you since they couldn't see you when they cast it.
I somehow missed your video so I guess the RU-vid Algorythm hasn't been perfected yet :P First something about the Darkness spell itself. - First of all it is a spell that targets an object. So if you cast it on a glass eye, or perhaps a small pearl nestled into the handle of your shield/sword/spellcasting focus, you can cover it and uncover it without too much trouble. I would doubt that a DM would not allow you to open an eye at the beginning of your turn and then close it at the end. Or shift the grip on your shield/sword/focus in a similar fashion. This would effectively allow you to turn off Darkvision most of the time whilst still having it up when it gets to your turn. You could disengage without using the Disengage action, get your Advantage as normal, etc. Okay you don't have the defensive buff but it makes the spell much more workable. Secondly, the Summon Fey spell allows your fey ally to jump into melee, attack and then teleport back to your side, giving you a 5ft square of Darkness just for you.
What do you think of a whole party with the ability to see n magical darkness? I’ve always thought about a whole party of multi class warlocks, but there are other ways to see in magical darkness.
Darkness can be used in a martial-heavy party against mage enemies. Blind the mage with Darkness, they can use very few spells. Martials can attack as normal in the dark (disadvantage because they can't see, advantage because unseen attacker, cancels out to straight roll). Alternatively, if you're caster-heavy, make sure everyone has something that works in the dark, or just bring a bunch of summons, those can still attack in the dark.
Love your discussion on positioning, which is a lot more encompassing than the Darkness spell, though it is essential to the effectiveness of the darkness spell. Positioning is one of the primary ways to play better regardless of character.
I made a vid on why darkness is actually great and how to effectively use it (interestingly it references Bilbron's obscurement vid). Love Chris, but I think he's off on this one (and monks) :)
What is he off about Monks? Pretty sure he shares the opinion that they're flawed, just like most of us do. Do you think Monks are good, or are you are asserting that TM thinks they are?
@@Samuel_Kabel I have multiple videos on the topic. Monks, post tasha's, are much better than he gives them credit for. They're still weak compared to spellcasters, but so are all non-casting martials.
@@cmccbuilds8229 Whoa, disagree. In fact, your boi Bilbron even has a video about Martials vs Casters that summarize my own thoughts, pretty much. Tl;dw We need martials, as the control, healing, and summons, etc. that casters provide is not enough to finish combats and adventures, only to prolong them. Fighters may be less fun to play, but that does not make them bad.
I'm currently in a party that will soon transition into Tier 3 play. I have already indicated to the party that I am going to include the Darkness + Devil Sight combo as part of my strategy. I have had positive feedback so far...I will coordinate with interested players... If others would rather stand out in the open (bait) as the ancient wyrm chooses its next target/s, who am I to impinge on their rights? We all get to make choices and we all get to deal with the associated consequences.
In BG3 I got devilsight on everything but the druid. Two have darkness spell available. And yeah not all fights need it, but my two brawlers rush into the thick of it with darkness dominating the area. When your team has devil sight and the enemy doesn't, man, its like you're seal team 6 during a night raid.
Casting a Spell, PHB p. 204, emphasis mine. "If a spell targets a creature of your choice, you can choose yourself, unless the creature must be hostile or specifically a creature other than you. *If you are in the area of effect of a spell you cast, you can target yourself.*" You can choose the center of your space to be a point in range for Darkness.
Darkness spell: _Magical darkness spreads from a point you choose within range to fill a 15-foot-radius sphere for the duration. The darkness spreads around corners. A creature with darkvision can't see through this darkness, and nonmagical light can't illuminate it._ _If the point you choose is on an object you are holding or one that isn't being worn or carried, the darkness emanates from the object and moves with it. Completely covering the source of the darkness with an opaque object, such as a bowl or a helm, blocks the darkness._ You cannot target a creature with Darkness. However, you can target an object a creature is wearing. "Points," where the spell originates, is meant to be in the intersection of a grid when using the grid "variant" rules. 5e is written for a free-form default, but everyone immediately switched to grids, just like in older editions of D&D. This leaves the weird interactions like 'circles are squares' and this, for example.
If you cast it at a point then yes the darkness is 10 feet on one direction and 15 in others. But once cast on an object that is worn or carried, it is no longer a point and must expand 15 feet from you in all directions. I can understand why treantmonk used 15 feet from his square as it's assumed you would cast it on an object and there is no way for you to define exactly where in the 5 feet you are at any one time. So you would have to have 15 feet from square in all directions. There is no rules or ability to say oh the talismen or stone with darkness is in this corner on the square I am in. You occupy that square fully and so the spell must spread out from that square fully
Hey bilbron , what do you think of this combo? I call it the panini press of pain. I think the metal summon construct might be the best damage dealing Tasha summon because of this simple trick that makes use of the heated body ability. So you summon it right next to someone . Have it walk up pinto the target and then back up for 1d10 damage, and then again, and again. This gives it an additional 3d10 fire damage with absolutely no save or attack roll needed , and it can still attack as well .
I am surprised that you don't find Blindsight to be an issue considering you play on West March servers. My own experience with West Marches is that very nearly everything has Blindsight, everything challenging enough for the tactic to be worth using in the first place at least. The real issue is that you can't tell what has Blindsight and what doesn't and after wasting one too many actions on ineffective Darkness, it is easy to walk away considering it to be not worth the gamble.
I don't play West Marches so I don't know how DM's typically handle this, but logically speaking, if a creature has eyes, I would assume it needs them to see, with the exception of things like powerful fiends, which can be assumed to have Devil's Sight, Truesight, or other such things.
