So much work on this one and so many hours non-stop to have this done by today. Be advised, animations may not be correct + audio is not in real time. Anyway, I hope you find it useful to visualize the situation. From these lines, KUDOS to the air traffic controllers and the emergency services for their job. No delays were applied except for both affected aircraft and the A318 and B757 behind who had to wait for the planes to clear the area and taxi for their takeoff.
The plane was not, TECHNICALLY on the ground. It had lifted off just before impact. Also, he was moving at takeoff speed. Even so, there were survivors of that crash. So it was STILL not as bad as it could have been.
Eric Taylor True. Even though ground collisions can be fatal as much as air ones. Still with Towers controls etc the chances of that happening are very slim.
It always makes me happy to see pilots and ATC talking calmly to figure out a solution when the average car driver would be yelling and pointing fingers.
You should listen in on Orlando Executive and enjoy the missed approach and go around situations. The controllers really get pissed off because it messes up operations at Orlando International to the south when an aircraft doesn't carry through with the landing at Executive.
4:32 'Ladies and Gentlemen..." "this is your captain speaking..." "if you look outside the left hand side... You will see what happens when two wings touch...." " Your flight has now been cancelled." "Thank you for flying with....."
Lol! I’m from NY and that is a very good idea. I hate flying to JFK, always so many delays and problems. I even had a pilot joke once that he was glad we only had a 15 minute delay and that was good for JFK. Last time I was there we had to wait for 20 minutes because there was no ground crew there to bring our plane in
I'm always amazed with ATC gives about 17 instructions in one giant sentence to a pilot. How can you remember all that? I was always terrified flying into large airports for exactly that reason.
@Pop Films All fuel used in a delay is a concern as the minimum journey plus safety margin fuel is loaded. Unlike boats where we load enough for a return to departure port or another port. should there be a problem not getting into original destination.
@@megabyte112 No Shit Sherlock.... that's what I said. He was the aircraft behind the Egypt Air flight. He was making radio calls trying to see if there was away to squeeze around him to get to the runway. Like I said, he wanted to get the hell outta there.
That's the way I did it before but I'm trying new things. I've worked a lot to have planes painted on company colors but I've thought of a new thing for better visualization ;)
@@VASAviation I have to say, its a lot of work going into these animations and audio sync ups. Company colors is definitely good and provides a kind of realism. If I may make a suggestion, can you add the taxi and run way letters on the animations. Although, its possible to id from the audio, having the letters would make it easier to follow along. :) Keep up the good work.
I'm finding some of the text colors (light blue and red) very hard to read on my android. Trying to find a way to improve their visibility, but can't replace my old eyes.
Imagine the nightmare this little incident caused for the passengers and airlines. Especially because they are away from their home base and no extra airplanes.
@@ih82r8 Casual woman response, but they are not that big, especially for an a330 and a 777 next to each other, the controller should of made him wait on K1 not the ILS holding point.
@generic username - I was taught that our brain is slower at understanding negatives. KEEP MOVING for instance works better than DON'T STOP. You first hear the word stop and want to respond to that before the 'don't' sinks in. I think the ATC should phrase their sentences better.
It might've just been me, but tower controller sounded genuinely relieved to talk to someone who could give him pertinent information quickly and concisely.
You can hear it in the way he issues runway clearances at 11:09 vs 15:47 . 94 gets slow, clear instructions, 99 gets the rapid-fire. So satisfying listening to two pros on the same wavelength getting shit done.
Yeah his first call he was essentially clearing himself till the controller schooled him. You would think people spend their entire shift in the airport would understand the operating procedures.
Sounded like Car 94 needs training on radio procedures. Too many excess words irrelevant to what he's trying to ask/communicate. Distracting, confusing, wasting time.
@@Alex-us2vw well here in 2023 we had that poor ramp worker sucked into an engine after two (2) safety meetings about the plane not being able to stop engines till the ramp hooked up the electricity.
Apart from the collision itself, this is a classic example of professional radio work and competence from all involved. I'm actually impressed with JFK here for once.
This airport is notorious. According to Kennedy Steve you can only do control successfully for about 60 minutes ; 75 max. (He has an interview on here with Capt - Joe I think ?) . It's exhausting and never ending. I feel like the learning curve is steep.
Layman here. How could this have been avoided (aside from having more cautious pilots)? Could ATC have instructed Virgin to pull all the way forward on the run-up pad in order to deal with the technical problem, then instructed everyone else to use K2 to access the runway? Or would some of those planes have needed the full length of the runway to takeoff?
They instructed the Virgin pilot to pull over as far as he could. Obviously that wasn’t enough. Egyptair should’ve refused to move until the Virgin aircraft was removed or wing walkers were provided. Then again, if you’ve ever driven in Egypt, nothing they do would surprise you!
You would really think the airlines would inform their employees about something like that. We need something like carfax for planes and call it wingfax.
tiny innocent a318 stuck in all this mess ;-) Interesting: BAW2 made it across the pond in one go, despite being stuck on the taxiway for an hour, burning extra fuel...
The BAW2 pilot shuts off the engines pretty soon after the incident, which is why the ATC then instructs him and the Aer Lingus pilot at 16:30 to ‘start up’ and advise him when they are ready to start taxiing.
WAIT! I know people with 5 cameras on their RV. You cannot tell me we can't put 10 outside cameras to cycle through on an airliner. C'mon. They can't see if the engine is on fire? If the rudder is working? If they have wing clearance? This is child's play, and overlooked. I will never understand this. Because it is stupid not to have multiple views of the aircraft. Period.
@@6z0 Indeed. And then also cost of equipment to watch them, complexity of SOPs to monitor them, maintenance ... If airlines could dispense with the costs of wingwalkers and some of the other ground crew then they certainly would.
I really enjoy your videos since I have a deep interest in aviation. Your visuals make your videos much more entertaining and informative than a video of just watching the captions of the recordings. Keep up the good work!
There's an older ground collision video on this channel between a 737 and 757, witnessed by Virgin 4C at JFK. I just thought it was a neat (?) coincidence
I was actually on the flight radar 24 app and I was looking at JFK and saw VA and EA on the same taxiway and it looked like the VA was next to the Egypt. I wasn’t sure what was going on but no one was moving and it was an open runway they could’ve turned onto. Now I realize what happened lol.
Who's the rocket scientist who designed a run-up pad without a taxi line so planes taxiing on K will clip wingtips with a plane parked on the pad? This is a huge operations error and design oversight. That pad and taxiway are new concrete.
puma.will. pounce I would have expected the First Officer on the Egypt Air flight to be very much aware of the Virgin parking on the pad to his right even if he was engaged in check list call outs.Just saying
What does awareness have to do with wingtip clearance? The EGYPT AIR thought the Virgin was parked where he was suppose to be, and there are no restrictions listed for 777-300ER on taxiway K. This is the fault of JFK airport. Secondary fault goes to Virgin for eyeballing where to put their nosewheel on an unmarked holding pad.
Awareness is being able to acknowledge and react to what is happening around you in your ambient environment and not to concentrate on one single work piece.
Usually, the aircraft doing the runup will keep their place in line while they do it, and any aircraft passing someone needs to make sure they can squeeze by. This isn't a "safe parking zone," it's a place where aircraft can swing wide and point their engines somewhere safe. There's an instructional video where a CFI is taxiing a Cherokee (low wing) in line behind a Skyhawk (high wing), both angled on the taxiway for runup. The Skyhawk is taking his sweet time, and our man in the Cherokee, wanting to get on with our lesson, decides to pass because his wing will pass under the Skyhawk's. As he's taking off, the tower asks the next plane in line (another high-wing) if he wants to pass the Skyhawk. He says no because he probably can't get around the wing. Virgin should have pulled up and off a bit farther, and probably angled the nose a bit back toward Kilo to pull the wing out of the way. Egypt should have pulled over to the left (looks like there's some room towards Kilo 2) to be sure and clear Virgin. It may even have been Virgin's intention to leave the far end of the pad open for Egypt to come back to the right and make a wide left turn onto Kilo 1.
Jim Stanley Yeah, it does seem like that would have been the best thing to do in this situation. JFK was built in the 1950's, so the layout of it leaves very much to be desired....lol! Pilots need to really think about their actions, when navigating around ol' JFK Airport.
Uh, minimum debris and keep thrust low??? WTF? Don't these ops people know a screw can get sucked into an engine at idle speed and cause significant damage? I would refuse to taxi over that area.
Completely agree, all airfield movement areas should be fod free and fully serviceable before allowing movements to commence. Ops vehicles R/T wasn't the greatest however bear in mind this was a stressful situation for the airport authority/ops teams.
Can I ask anyone who's knowldgeable... What is the process for dealing with non life threatening shunts like this with aircraft? Will the passengers have to be sent on later flights? Do the companies exchange insurance details? Is the port authority liable at all? Do the planes get repaired and checked before going out again? Do the pilots take a different flight or stay longer at the accident city location or does it just depend of where and when they are next needed to fly? Sorry for so many questions - just interested. :-)
The aircraft are grounded until repaired. The self loading cargo... er "passengers," will be re loaded on another aircraft or rerouted as this is the airline's fault. Insurance will Just think, after all that attention and *still* a Virgin... sort this out. The port authority may be liable. The insurance will determine. The airline will decide what they want to do with the pilots.
Jo - In this case, Virgin Airlines and Egypt Air will likely ask the Port Authority (which owns the airport) to pay for damage to both aircraft since it was the airport's fault for not having a taxi line on the run-up pad where the Virgin A330 parked which forced the Virgin captain to essentially guess where he should park. I've seen airlines request the airport to pay for damages before in similar incidents.
14:51 that's the result of using 'when' and 'where' together and then later jusy using 'where'. Radio chatter can lead to this confusing situation. Pilots are already in a high stress situation and controller had to be a little bit more precise and use another wording. Is clear the pilots got the wrong call there and this lead to pilots getting more confused and controller getting angry.. Should have said like, hold short on bravo and Advise when you know where you're parking or something like that
There was another video here somewhere where the ATC used exactly the same sentence "where do you enter the ramp" and the pilot had no a clue what the controller was saying. I agree the ATC should probably rephrase the question about the ramp/gate if it did not work the first time.
Yeah, seems silly to repeat the same question over and over when alternatives are fairly simple... "at what location will you be entering the ramp?" or "which intersection will you enter the ramp from?"
rzero21 this controller is very rude and don’t understand how the pilots under stress. This rude controller not his first time to speak like this. He did so before with Air China and u can search it. Just write Air China communication with jfk ground. U will find that he is so rude. He forgot that his job is to serve and insure the safety of the flight with the pilots. He suppose to be short , sharp , clear ( not angry). I am a pilot. I know a such feeling. JFK airport is a nightmare for pilots because a lot of traffic, complicated taxing procedures and a lot of communications with the tower and GND.
I mean if the EgyptAir B777 is dead nuts on the taxiway line (which they seem to be) wouldn't it be Virgin's fault for not going farther to the right? If Virgin A330 was also following the taxiway line then I guess it's ground controller's fault for instructing Virgin A330 to go right to give way to EgyptAir, assuming it's his job to know how widely separated those 2 taxiway lines are and whether both the B777 and the A330 could fit there next to each other? I don't know who's fault this is.
Thanks so much for your very dedicated effort going into putting the videos together. It’s greatly appreciated. I wonder what the process for getting the two aircraft repaired entails. Off hand I think it’s possible to ferry the EgyptAir aircraft to a site that happens to repair body damage, or Boeing etc. the Virgin aircraft isn’t so lucky judging by the winglet and other wing pieces sitting in the pickup. I’ve been on a 757 (HP-US) that had an engine failure on taxi at Milwaukee. W/o any shops or mechanics at the airport NW handled the situation and upon receiving another V2500 from Phoenix, I suppose NW handled the replacement. Funny thing, the most trouble I’ve ever had regarding twin aircraft engines has involved the V2500. In Phoenix or Vegas heat failures due to some unexpected defect were frequent, I had two in addition to the MKE problem. An early morning Seattle-Phoenix flight had both a V2500 issue and an APU failure. I believe that the Rolls powered 757’s outnumbered International Aero V2500’s 2 to 1 yet the problems were many times more frequent. It’s weird looking up engine data on the IAE lists no Boeing products using the V2500: maybe I’m confusing V2500 powered 321’s and RR powered 757’s, old age is a real bitch. You don’t lose memory it just gets scrambled a little
That gal in car 99 had her act together! Virgin could've moved a bit further over but Egypt was the responsible party. They could've asked Speedbird behind them to watch their starboard wing if it looked problematic.
We all miss KS but take note that the ramp is working very very efficiently now at JFK. I know it's a rule they have to retire but he was very sharp. Maybe bi-annual dementia exams should be used in stead of age retire outs.
Fascinating, I didn't know the tower also directed the cars to cross runways and such. I love watching the cars dart around all over the place when I'm at the airport, but never knew they were also talking to tower.
Gotta say, the subtitles are poor on this one, to the point of changing the meaning of what is said. For example, at 13:08, BAW2 says "OK, that would be our preferred method, of taxiing ahead and Kilo-2 as opposed to the 180", but it's subtitled as "OK, that will be awesome to taxi ahead and take Kilo-2 or perform a 180." The pilot is expressing a clear preference for _not_ doing the 180, but the subtitle says that either option would be awesome.
Correct me if I’m wrong here but shouldn’t ATC have stopped all traffic when they knew the first plane was having issues instead of telling the second plane to continue to taxi?! Essentially the pilots all did what they were told to do and that resulted in their wingtips colliding. So basically that ATC guy is now unemployed.
I happened to be waiting to take off last night at JFK while this was happening. There was quite a queue of aircraft waiting on Zulu and even on 22L waiting for this to be resolved and the aircraft to taxi back to the ramp.
all the coordination needed for this accident is incredible! the vehicles 🚗 need as much clearance to maneuver as the planes do - maybe even more. ATC, ground, and emergency vehicles did an incredible job with all those instructions! the animation is a big help and well done. thank you so much for the great editing, etc. which you did for us out here. :) 🌷✈️🛩 🚑
I'm proud of my ex bf from 30 years ago that is a DFW controller and we were such kids just teens and how he's ATC and even maybe saved my life flying into Dallas, whilst I'm an RN saving anybody without air.
People don't realize that how much work and effort is required to fly and land an aircraft, much respect to ATC operators coordinating multi tasks in the ground and air
Ok I do appreciate the effort you put into these, but I'm finding alot of transcription errors. Like at 10:56 he doesn't say he is with the crew of Engine, he says he is with the crew of Egyptair and Virgin. Finding alot of things like this. Just wanted to point it out so you were aware. Now, back to the video
CAR 94 in my mind messed up at about 10:20 by telling what they wanted to do instead of asking permission from ATC. ATC: Say again... gave CAR94 a chance to correct himself, but he didn't.
My god, this may be the slowest and clearest I've ever heard a NY Controller speak on frequency. And he was so patient with Virgin. They DO exist. "Yes, Virginia, there IS a Santa Claus!"
This is how it’d go down if I was the egyptair pilot **Hits wing tip** Virgin air pilot: Egyptair just hit my wing! Me: **gasps** I’m so so so so sorry!! I happen to say sorry for everything
