Voltlog  

I agree that generic T12 tips are good enough, but I don't think Hakko is being greedy here. They have patented alloys and construction for their tips and I am certain that they will last longer than generics. You are paying for the research and quality manufacturing that Hakko offers. *However*, the generic T12 tips are surprisingly good for the price and I actually recommend them. You can get a full set of generic T12's for cheap, so why not get a collection? I've seen no reason to buy genuine T12 tips, which is rather unfortunate for Hakko. This is not true for T18 (900-M) tips, though, as the Hakkos are so much superior to the generics that I recommend buying the genuine tips. The real tips range from $5 to $20 each depending upon the style, which isn't so bad considering that they will last for years. The generics may less than cost $1 each, but often have *terrible* heating and may last only a few months at low temps and mere weeks at high temps. There *is* a performance difference here. Better quality T18 generics might actually exist somewhere, but this market is so flooded that buyers can't possibly know if they are getting a better tip even if they pay extra. Unfortunately, it's not easy to find genuine Hakko T18 online, though there are a couple of ebay stores, such as nesselectronics, that sell a limited selection. If you want to use generic tips, *definitely* buy a T12 station.

@@antibrevity very few people like to take R and D into account or even acknowledge it a pricing factor. Everyone wants something for nothing.

thanks!

I use tips copies of hakko work for a limited time is to waste money for the garbage I do not recommend them

Ive had one come and the soldering station itself kept beeping and displaying error but the tip is fine when checked with the multimeter

@@alexstone691 Do you have it on the original Hakko tip? For 10 tips, 1 I had a faulty short-circuit of the temperature sensor to ground. 1 also caused the station to be overloaded at the first start. But it works after warming up. The other 8 work fine.

thank you!

Not really an option because for a reliable test I would need to test several units from each (genuine and replacement) and put them through the same wear with some kind of repetitive test like, constantly pushing the tip in and out of a brass sponge for a certain amount of time. But since the genuine tips are $20 each I'm not gonna just trash them :-)

@@voltlog No, the genuine tips we know are reliable so no need to test them. It's these cheap alternatives that needs to be tested to see if they really are a cheaper alternative in the long run. Regards Geir.

@@geirendre this contradicts what you asked originally,& it makes no sense because he already told you they both performed about equally,& in order to know whether the old knockoffs are good is to do the tests he said,which as he says is unimportant because they cost 1/5th the amount & they are just about the same thing, can't you see the metal is the same basically otherwise it wouldn't heat up equally to original.

pro trick: watch movies on flixzone. I've been using it for watching all kinds of movies during the lockdown.

@Mack Alfonso Definitely, I've been watching on Flixzone} for since december myself :D

Exactly right ... abused at high temps, the lesser quality tips, will oxidize and become brittle first. Thin tips do this, especially.

yup that might be a possibility but it is hard to test objectively.

Some of the 3rd parties ones do tend to oxidized faster then the genuine ones. Some like the Ksger tips been pretty good and been the tip for hours a day and haven't had a issues with them. It just depends on brand, not all 3rd party tips are bad. Now the real; Hakko which is T15 i get for about $10 to $12 bucks from part suppliers and the good 3rd party ones for $5 to $6 for the type I use. So the real ones are not 5 times as much, but about double. The drill pro in a pack are are cheaper and work reasonable well, but don't have all the types I use often and have to buy separate. My favorite tip of the fakes is the BCM3, that tip does wonders with SMD work and worth the $9 bucks paid for it to the point I bought a few more.

​@@voltlog Cc tt

yup that wouldn't be easy to test, I would need to test at least a few from each and put them through some kind of repetitive test like, constantly pushing the tip in and out of a brass sponge for a certain amount of time. But since the genuine tips are $20 each I'm not gonna just trash them :-)

Hmm I see, you think the two tips might have an actual different tip temperature even though the station thinks they are both at the same temperature. I will do a quick test today to check this and get back to you with a reply.

I ran the test, they both perform similarly, the actual temp at the tip is almost the same as measured by the FG100 thermometer.

VoltLog good to know that! You did a great job, thank you.

FixDaily - Electronic repairs, hacks and tips Yes, is completely different. It contains ammonium in some shape and may be some lead alloy. First it removes any rust or oxides and is also able to tin the tip again leaving a nice and bright iron plating.

@@ictrepairs6963 Thank you friend, so totally recommend to use it then?

The tip cleaner works really well, you should try it. Regarding destroying the tips I wouldn't mind doing that for the KSGER tip but for the HAKKO tip which would cost me $20 + shipping to get a new one I would rather not destroy it.

@@voltlog Ok thank you, although destroying the original one would be a fair review, but i understand

@@voltlog Btw, i found out this: www.aliexpress.com/item/3-100mm-Welding-Pin-Soldering-Needle-Spot-Welder-Machine-Weld-Accessories-Alumina-Copper-Material-Solder-Pins/32885628072.html It's called "Spot Welder Soldering Needle" , i was searching like cooper rod and these ones cost the almost the same and they are the correct size

You can see in the video they both heat up & read about equally

I do recommend some uppercase letters.

Thanks for the feedback.

This is another way of saying you are paying for a brand name. Soldering tips aren't really that complicated and the genuine tips aren't higher quality due to some magical secret sauce manufacturing techniques. in my experience the good fakes perform just as well long term as the genuine. What you're paying for is largely consistency and quality control. With the genuine Hakko, you can be pretty confident that you're getting a tip that won't have any defects and will last. With a fake you pay a lot less, but the chances that you'll get a bad or defective fake are a lot higher.

Like mentioned in the video long term reliability might be an issue although I don't expect any of these tips to fail in a considerable way while moderately used.

Actually, you can get even less plating for a very high price. I'm talking about JBC and their C245 (and similar) tips. These are about 30 - 45 USD (special types even more) and they have awesome soldering performance. But there's quite trustworthy informations, that JBC reached this by making the iron plating significantly thinner than other manufacturers. Iron is quite bad heat conductor, compared to copper. Less iron, more copper -> better performance. This is a compromise between performance and longevity.

Actually what your saying is false....even a genuine can last a short time as well....just because one is genuine and the other maybe fake....sometimes a non genuine may last longer and it has been proven.....

@@ghostrangerp.8819 the problem with fakes is that you can’t know if you’re buying a “quality” fake or a terrible fake. There is no consistency, so you’re dealing with luck. The fake market is full of products: all seems identical but all of them are different. You can purchase 10 tips from the same seller and get 3 different quality. Purchase again and get another batch coming from who knows. Spend a little more on genuine, and you’re fine. If you want an alternative, why purchase hakko station? Get xytronic or else. And by the way: that a fake tip lasts longer than a genuine, has been proved by who? On which work environment?

Here is where he shows that for JBC. The performance of original JBC cartridges is impressive: Review of the T12-11 Chinese soldering station. Can it be a cheap JBC alternative?

Not a single tip was damaged ever since I started using these.

it does

@@madmatrac it doesn't

yes they probably have some steel but did those magnets survive after heating them? Or did they demagnetize?

They survived just fine. I imagine they did lose some of their strength, but they are still very magnetic. Before I soldered them, I stuck another magnet to them. After they cooled down, they were fine. Here's where I got the idea. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-G4MdrRXfb1M.html

@@jamisonlm3 Modern tips are magnetic, because the copper core is plated with iron to prevent copper dissolve in the tin solder. Iron is dissolved too, but this process is negligible. There are another dangers for the iron plating, like corrosion by too aggresive flux, thermal shock by wet sponge (good quality brass wool is recommended) or mechanical damage, e.g. by scraping the oxides off the soldered surface. kaisertech.co.uk/content/blog/2013/02/22/jbc-long-life-tips/

are you using the value displayed by the controller for comparison? what is not always accurate so you should do an external measurement with a soldering iron thermometer like i did in the video.

@@voltlog I have the same chinese copy of Hakko FG100 thermometer as you have and it is accurate - I checked mine against multimeter and both, the FG100 and the DMM, showed same values.

@@ales_xy I will also review a ksger t12 soldering station soon so we'll see if the results are similar or if there is something wrong with previous tests.

you can see on led screen that fake tip suck at heat transfer

I don't know what tips you got but take a look at the video they are identical in size.

@@voltlog I don't get it, the tips on the two from what I see on the video, while similar are NOT the same. The hakko one is longer and has more curve which is why it is probably measuring 3mm longer. I am surprised you did not mention this at all in your video. The Hakko one seems better for fine work. UNless what we see on video is an illusion.!??

@@abeleski Exactly, they're different in shape and in weight and in price... Just depends on the application like masoodno said - if it's not working for you, get another tip, genuine or not.

I'm not sure if there are any alternatives for those or if it's just the one type available. I would be suspicious though if you find them very cheap, I would question the source of those.

yes, pretty good and accurate.

They are very accurate, same as digital multimeters with K-type thermocouple measurement. Also, if you want to spare few $, you can buy just the replacement thermocouple and connect it to multimeter with temprerature measurement. It works.

@@ales_xy any video to show that?

@@sbybill3271 No video needed just plug - with -, + with + on your multimeter with temp function.

Not a single one has failed.

@@voltlog Thanks! Tip plating is holding up too?I ask because service older audio equipment with Thru-hole and Point-to-poin't wiring, tube sockets etc. and do a fair amount of soldering. I currently have an older Weller station, Hakko FX-888D and I recently bought a Pace ADS200 station but haven't opened it yet. I'm thinking of getting a KSGER T12 station because it's inexpensive and has good reviews.

@@acoustic61 Sounds like your daily usage would definitely generate more wear on the tips than what they get on my bench where I do mostly SMD work and it's not everyday use. Still, I think they will hold up reasonably well and considering the cost you could keep spares around in case one of them fails. I would try to find a reliable source to get them because I'm not 100% sure they all come from the same factory so there could be quality variations if try to get the absolute cheapest you can find on aliexpress.

The one that failed might be a quality control issue which several people said in the comments it would be the main difference between fake and original.

I guess Hakko is giving you a lesson, that their products are simply not worth the price. Chinese T12 station on ebay is 15x cheaper, smaller, better designed with switching PSU and works flawlessly with both fake and genuine tips - www.ebay.com/itm/T-12D-Digital-Soldering-Station-T12-Silicone-Handle-T12-K-Soldering-iron-Tip-Kit/173629249169

@@kamilhorvat8290 i dont recommend those i rec pre build from ksger you dont need to build them and you get 4 tip for 45 buck +Not becouse it suck but you will love oled screen and they will tell you everything like power, time, temp, etc in in one screen

It might be worth investigating why those tips don't work, is it an electrical contact issue? Or is the station just not seeing the expected values on the thermocouple?

@@voltlog mybe it uses diferent temp sensor as far i know the ksger use ntc while hakko ptc

​@@felixgamingvlog6702 No, they both use thermocouple: hackaday.io/project/94905-hakko-revenge/log/144548-hakko-t12-thermocouple-is-not-type-k

That is true. They are still decent for the price, you just have to break in let sit on high temperature and then select tip type and run the calibration and they work fine. The genuine ones are usually bang on from factory and no burn in required as stable out of packing.

Well that time also depends on the shape of tip being used and in this test I am using very thin tips.

yup, got my words mixed there...

I think there is a problem with the Caps Lock key on your keyboard.

@@voltlog *NO ITS WORKING ABSOLUTELY FINE* *JUST I WANT YOU TO NOTICE THATS WHY ITS BOLD N BEAUTIFUL LOL 🤪*

@@SAMEERSAMEER-ec3iw Brash and ugly are the terms you're looking for.

It's debatable because chances are, people who can't afford to buy hakko will never buy hakko while the ones who can afford will continue to buy the original.

Are you paying for R&D though? People like to trot out this claim, but when were these tips developed, how much did it cost and has Hakko recouped their expenses? Is the heating technology or the tip shapes under patent? The Chinese regularly innovate. I have an RC helicopter that looks a lot like one from an American brand, but the Chinese have produced a superior design. It costs less to buy, is more durable, flies better and is cheaper to repair than the American brand. People outside China had better wake up, because Chinese consumers are getting more demanding and the quality of Chinese products is going up and they're moving on from simple imitation.

Certainly they can innovate if there's a better tip to be made...but I'm not sure there is. No need to design something different just to be different. Not sure what what they have patented either.

Personally I think Hakko and other similar priced manufacturers are aiming at the professional market.. Those buyers \ companies are not going to try and save a few dollars by purchasing some alternative tips. They are going to want to provide a pro product \ service that meets standards. Hence the reason why Hakko has the key card and other manufacturers have similar features.

@@ian1352 Back 60-70 years ago the same was said about Japanese made products being cheap as compared to many products made elsewhere and now many Japan made products are considered the best made of anywhere in the world. China seems to be following that same pattern as they gain experience in manufacturing and continually improve their factories abilities and machinery. Another thing in today's times Japan faces the same issues as say the U.S.A. with high production cost at home in Japan driving Japanese companies to outsource their production to China, Vietnam and Thailand hence fewer products even from traditionally well-known Japanese brands are actually made in Japan anymore. Chinese quality is definitely getting better while maintaining somewhat reasonable prices as compared to many options that are made elsewhere. I can and have bought a ksger complete t-12 soldering station for not a lot more money than I have to pay for a higher wattage replacement tip for my vintage Ungar soldering iron. Although I do keep my 40 year old Unger going as well!

I agree we are partly responsible for encouraging this behavior and I would encourage everyone who can afford the genuine to support Hakko by purchasing genuine. Might be easier if you are in the US but here in the EU we often pay more for the same stuff.

Don't be naiive. These companies don't live from hobbyist buying the cheapest station once in his life and then one tip in a few years. Big customers, corporate customers, there's their main source of money. And these customers don't bother with some copies. Don't worry. If Hakko goes bankrupt, there's no reason to feel guilty for buying chinese tips. :-D

Copy, not steal intellectual property. But I'm not sure the Hakko product is still under any form of intellectual protection. These aren't fakes or counterfeits either - they don't pretend to be selling Hakko parts. However once intellectual property protection expires there is nothing unethical or immoral about others producers a compatible product. That product must necessarily look and work almost the same as the original. Before protection expires reverse engineering is perfectly legitimate too. For instance to make a station and handle compatible with patented Hakko tips. I find it funny how much people fall for the propaganda that tells them this is stealing or wrong.

The ethical side is that anyone can reverse engineer any product any time they like and use the knowledge they gain to design their own product. If the patents are up anyone can copy the product if they wish and they haven't done anything wrong. So have KSGER violated any Hakko patents?

Bodhi1satva you caught me!

hahaahhahahaaha *facepalm* ... Who is Haako? :D

Emiliyan Yankov A soldering station manufacturer

@@Bodhi1satva Never heard of them, only heard of Hakko, who are the only reason this video's topic exists. For an SJW bound to word selection, you really suck at it yourself xD