I already spend 30 minutes to an hour staring at the group finder either waiting for a tank/healer or applying to groups over and over until I get accepted. A solo queue just removes the mind-numbing tedium of the group finder.
Tonight I want to test if you can be waiting in RDF queue while you're inside a solo delve, if so Blizzard has made the ULTIMATE passtime for inbetween dps queues
Give Tanks and Healers bonus rewards (crests and valorstones) that increase as more DPS are stuck waiting in queue. Change “depletion” completely for LFG. Timing dungeon = increases rating Finishing dungeon = no increase, but no punishment If you LEAVE a dungeon, lose rating and have a re-queue penalty. Lose more and more rating if you “regularly” leave dungeon groups.
@@ThePolarpop Their number one complaint (and number one problem with M+ in general) is people will just leave after one bad pull, ruining everyone else’s experience. They currently punish you too heavily for not timing a key, so much that it’s actually more efficient to LEAVE a dungeon and start over with another group. They need to shift toward completion still giving rewards, and leaving being heavily discouraged. The reward of timing a key should mean getting more rating, which lets you get into higher keys for higher gear; but the act of actually sticking it out and completing the dungeon should award the group with full end of dungeon drop rewards, and simply not affect your rating. “Well guys, we’re not gonna get rating on this one, but at least we’ll get gear” is a hell of a lot better than “Wow, we died on first boss. You guys suck! *leaves*”
Tettles completely out of touch with how m+ group finder already works if he thinks solo q would have long wait times. He should ask growl how long jangbi would sit in group finder.
Something important for Solo Q dungeons is that it changes the dynamic from "maybe I'll get to play m+ today" to "I definitely will be able to play the game". Now for non-meta DPS players the Q might be long, but that's still more dungeons than they probably play currently. It's just objectively better for off-meta tanks and healers too. If I like to play Disc Priest or Brewmaster, then I'm more likely to want to play the game because I'm not sitting in group finder forever applying to 5 groups and waiting for the 5 minutes to be up, so I can apply to others. In that sense I think it does increase the amount of healer and tank players. By how much, who knows, but I personally would be more willing to try to push higher keys instead of just hitting that wall where it takes forever to get into groups on my Priest. Towards Tettles' point on the Q times being high, aren't Q times already high if you aren't listing your own key. It would be 1 thing if groups were actually being formed in the frequency that the community needed, but that doesn't happen. And it sucks when you wait 30 minutes for a group, wipe on the first pull and disband. However, that is literally what already happens. This is also because people hate forming groups due to how shitty the community is. At a certain key level playing with people you don't know is asking for your key to get bricked and all your hard work pushing it up to be lost. In a solo Q system Blizzard would be able to implement things to encourage people to stick around or complete the key. You could still get valuable practice and have fun even if you will deplete. Maybe have a vote where 4/5 people have to accept to disband the key. If someone leaves without doing that then flag their character where it locks them out of the system. Preferably do it in a way where they have to do something to get back into good standing with the system.
48:36 interesting note as a recently converted WOW player from FF. the JP servers for FF have a standard of using soloQ through duty finder for high-end raid content. The expectation is that you use the premades for learning parties and only queue into duty finder when you've full cleared and understand mechanics. There's cultural reasons why this works for them as well, but it's an interesting thought -- imagine if you only opened up soloQ raid after you finished a clear with a party from party finder.
I've always viewed borrowed power as a temporary system that sometimes lasts a season, other times an entire expansion, whereas evergreen systems are those that endure and are continuously built upon. There were several issues I had with borrowed power. First, it felt like the majority of our power was tied up in these systems, only to be stripped away later. Sure, it felt satisfying to have a covenant, then layer on a legendary item, then a second legendary, along with conduits and other features (to be honest, I can't even recall all the systems in Shadowlands). But when it all gets taken away, it feels awful because the core class design was lacking. In Shadowlands, I often felt like I was playing a covenant rather than a class or spec, knowing that in less than two years, none of these choices would matter. It revealed the treadmill of progression in a stark way for the first time. Second, Blizzard has a habit of designing systems that initially function poorly, only to improve them later after enough frustration has built up. The legendaries in Legion were like this, people rerolled mains because they got a utility legendary instead of a DPS one. It wasn't until much later that a vendor was introduced, something that could have been implemented from the start. I don't want to be too harsh on the developers, but while occasional mistakes are understandable, this happens with nearly every system, making it feel like an intentional design choice. Third, they don’t roll back the grinds, like those who exploited the Delv Bran leveling. This creates a perception of unfairness, where mythic raiders, who already have the best gear, gain even more advantages. Fourth, it's a significant investment of time and resources into systems that eventually vanish. Many players, including myself, have wanted player housing for years, only to be told it would cost a raid tier. Well, cutting these borrowed power systems should be equivalent in resources, and it would be great to get some of the evergreen features that other games have, like player housing. Another issue is the lack of shared experiences. If you talk about covenants to someone whose last WoW experience was in Legion, they can’t relate. Borrowed power systems create these isolated experiences that aren’t shared across expansions, making it harder to connect with other players who didn’t play during those times. Don't get me wrong I enjoy tier sets and wouldn't mind the occasional borrowed power system. But I never want to return to a situation like Shadowlands, where we had more than half a dozen systems layered on top of each other, only for them to disappear like a fart in the wind as soon as a new expansion drops.
It's the fact that all our power was in the borrowed system, and none of it stuck around. This made farming AP into meaningless busywork, requiring a huge amount of farming for a benefit that would completely disappear at the end of the expansion and left nothing behind.
I think soloQ for M+ would be fine. You would just put a score requirement to queue for keys. The score for soloQ and grouping would be the same, so you could just pick either. While it looks like solo shuffle killed 3s, it was already pretty much dead before solo shuffle hit the scene. It just nailed that last nail into the coffin. A huge positive of solo shuffle is it forces blizzard to actually balance every class.
Regarding borrowed power, I feel like either I'm going crazy or the WoW community forgot the massive pruning that came in the expansions where 'Borrowed Power' became a buzzword. Like yeah, borrowed power systems themselves can be good or bad based on execution (both of the system itself and the acquisition). And it's definitely true that since borrowed power became a buzzword, people are particularly sensitive and critical of it. But there were so many systems-level changes and so much pruning during Legion/BfA, and during Legion it mostly felt fine because the pruning was supplemented by the borrowed power... but then we lost the borrowed power going into BfA and so much stuff got put on the GCD, and suddenly a lot of classes just felt weird to play. That's the real issue with borrowed power: when the core systems are left threadbare because too much gets shifted into the borrowed power systems. This feels obvious enough that it's almost not worth bringing up, except it literally happened just a couple expansions ago and now people are talking about borrowed power as if it's the thing at fault there, rather than Blizzard just misallocating system functionality. There was wonkiness in the core gameplay of a lot of the classes in Legion/BfA, it's just that that wonkiness tended to get smoothed over once the borrowed power kicked in. Side note, I think that's part of why the acquisition became *such* a hot button issue. When vital class power is located in the borrowed power system, having access to that power is important. Crazy, right.
What I LOVE about DF and TWW and why I came back in the first place is not having to do content I dont want to and not having to log on when idont want to play really. Like. AP farming and such when already max lvl is just... miserable imo
Soloq M+ would be great. Tettles is wrong comparing Solo Shuffle to Solo M+. PvPers are spread over BGs, RBGs, 2v2, 3v3, and technically Warmode. M+'ers have only 1 singular mode. The queue times wouldn't be even remotely close to Solo Shuffle queue times.
No. His claims on PVP are misinformed. Solo shuffle was a great success for the majority. There are some high end players that are unhappy with it tho.
The only thing wrong with solo shuffle is the MMR is more inflated and is the easiest way to get the rewards, but that's not the fault of solo shuffle it's the problem with pvps rating system
I think solo queue could work if; -they make an adequate reward track for it (vault slot, top 100/500 class title or mounts) -they make the MMR a metric of your stats (getting hit by mechanics, kicking prio spells, using CDs appropriately, team work and cooperation) -they implement a time or rating penalty for leaving/ toxic behavior -they cap key level at 10 and make score time based
I havent finished the whole video yet but... LFR queue takes 30minutes as DPS sure...For the first one- Every wing after that if you already queued it is almost instant after the first one. LFR is just fine and useful for the gear and rewards it gives. I think there is a world where m+ LFG could work up to +10. It would need to be locked behind rating or completion of all keys of the previous key level in time.
I think it would be interesting to have some of the high end PVP players, like Pika, to speak with the bench over their experience of solo shuffle in PVP and the iterations they have made. That could be informative to how the pod thinks about solo shuffle M+
M+ solo Q would be a good addition i see it going the way of solo shuffle that takes rating into account, of course theres always going to be drawbacks, but in no way would it nor should it be looked at as a way to circumvent the system as it is now. Also the take that a solo q'er wouldnt want to sit in q for 30 mins is a bit off, try being that off meta class and just random applying without any rating or using friends, youd be sitting there atleast 30mins+ constantly applying and getting denied. the score/ key level thing would probably be a selectable option when q'ing
I feel like the missing sauce for delves is brann; if delves were more like follower dungeons where you got a full party, and then had cracked incrementally increasing difficulty, I think it would be more "WoW" and a good lab to figure out stuff on your own time.
Solo que below 12s and not above fixes alot of the issues. They need to rework keys and depletes. But much like the affix changes, for those pushing score they will be doing the same thing as today
You can upgrade gear from hc dungeons up to 593 by using first crests and there is no point to keep them for later, they have no use for m0 gear. So basically 2 options : 1. craft 590 gear with enchanted crests if you're rich and lazy 2. upgrade heroic dungeon gear to 580 and as many slots as possible to 593
Okay listen up. Very similar to LoL soloqueue where everyone play soloQ but then you also have competitive premades. Two game modes: M+ SoloQ and Premade. The first one awards gear, score, crest and has a rating attached to it. No keys, no depletion. Only rating attached to the success rate. This would let the good players play whatever and not play only meta. If you are good and your spec is not 30% worse than everything, you go up. It would also incentivize play for score and get acknowledge. Fresh meat in the ladder. Important note: you have a vendor at the start like for delves where you can by scrolls such in Remix to bres, lust, raidbuffs. Then there is the second game mode. Premade. This does not reward gear, crests or anything. It is like now: you have a key, you upgrade it and you go up. However, this is where the title, cosmetics (hopefully elite set such as pvp), mount and portals are once you reach specific achievements. This would incentivize two types of playstiles that personally I find both equally compelling without forcing any of the roles to pigeonhole one of them. @tettles @squishei @growl thougths?
I have no dog in the fight, but your entire conversation around solo queue mythic plus was based on an assumption that it would function like it does currently. What if it had its own rating? What if it wasn't dungeon specific rating? There's many more questions and possibilities for a solo queue experience but you were all so set on the idea that everything would be identical except now you get to queue for it.
So, I don't know if solo queue would be good or bad for the game, but the commentary I'm hearing here seems super out of touch. Content Creator: "Are you going to be ok with waiting 35 minutes to get in a key????" Non-meta DPS: "It's better than spending 3-5 hours actively applying to keys to get a single invite to an entry level wyrm crest key despite being mythic raid geared" Sure, you can just grind your own key up, but the majority of people, even good players, aren't comfortable doing that. Most people would rather wait an hour+ than put a group together.
also a m+ queue equalizes the waiting time, cause if you are a non-meta spec the queue will be significant longer compared to meta spec. So 15min for meta spec will became 30m but the 1-2h for non meta specs will also become 30m.
@@shudder1319also am I crazy or would soloq not just incentivize people to play tanks and healers more and if alot of people are playing soloq why would queues be long outside of high enough that ud really not love to soloq it anyways
This Totally. There's a huge difference between applying refreshing and getting declined constantly vs being in a Q where you know you have at least 20 min to go take a shower or wash dishes or whatever. And then you can mine or do WQ or whathave you. These streamers who can't just do pleb content or step away from their PC have no idea what the average experience is.
My thoughts on Early Access are that I thought it was great to level characters in 3-4 hours, but man was I getting bored from how easy normal dungeons were. As a tank, I would just w key to every boss and there were no consequences and no difficulty. I have been liking heroics on release yesterday as there is at least a little critical thinking involved.
Personally for someone with a job early access was great for the single fact that it allowed me to play over an extra weekend, when i have the most time to play. If the game normally released on a thursday/friday and early access meant I could start playing on monday or something it would have been much less tempting.
i really agree with growl about not liking tier sets, but liking some changes to your spec every season. i would just like to see it implemented in a less clunky way than having to get your tier set. maybe like a relic slot with 4 sockets. and then those sockets make up a 2 and a 4 set, rather than having it have to interfere with your gear. that way you can keep your old 2 and 4 set until you have aquired 2 and 4 of the new sets. and even better if they make the tier from previous season still a viable option if people don't like the new one.
In regards to tier set acquisition, I think the best way to do it would be that items over a certain level in tier slots just always had tier bonus on them, that way you wouldnt need to go to the catalyst to upgrade everything to 4 set, but you'd just automatically have it as soon as you got enough pieces upgraded to at least normal raid level. I don't mind the current system though.
i'm in an alternate universe where corruptions are not borrowed power but evergreen!!! every expac you got a cloak to farm lvls in visions of Xalalath (but only 1 a week account-wide / yes they did not renamed it warbound yet) and a corruption vendor which has no rotation. Yes fire mage are still OP in my universe and augmentation evoker are not a thing (they do exist but are cleaning Gnomeregan with the leper gnomes). And yes even 3 expac after you still need to farm Lady Ashvane for his urchin trinket on every tank because it is evergreen too. And Freehold too is evergreen. And the next class is evergreen tinkerer.
Also, the lower the item levels achievable prior to raid the lower they can tune encounters making every encounter more achievable by casual players as they overgear them. If encounters have to be tuned to player item levels that are basically at the same item those encounters drop there is no space to overgear and progress for the less skilled players which is large number of people.
HAD to comment on the solo queue discussion. The conversation is completely dependent on how much filtering is available. If you can specify what dungeon or dungeons you want to queue for and what key range you want to queue for, that is a huge success. It means the players that want to use the systems will get what they want out of it. However, if you have to just solo queue for all dungeons and all key levels. That’s awful.
For hero talents they can "simply" add new hero talents regularly with each expansions just like Guild Wars 2 added elite specializations. Hero talents bring little to the table so it wouldn't cost them too much in terms of development time, balancing is mostly the concern but even there they can find compromises to make them not too available at all times to avoid having too many options to balance.
I don't understand comparing solo que mythic plus to lfr... That blows my mind. You are comparing a 5 man group with one tank and one healer to a 25+ man group with 2 tanks and 4-5 healers... OFC you are going to be waiting 10-30 mins for a que time in that example! What you should be comparing those times to is something like heroic dungeons que which takes 8-10 mins for dps. I also think that solo que m+ opens the door for people playing off meta dps, healers, or tanks... My friend played warrior in DF and he would wait 10-20 mins to get into a key cause no one wanted a fucking warrior... With the solo que he could wait 8-10 mins to get into a group and if people leave... They would get penalties!
I think if they added a token(similar to augment rune call to arms) for doing a queued m+ dungeon to guarantee a random drop from a dungeon that you do in the future at your choosing. maybe the tokens could drop dungeon specific or you get to pick which dungeon to use it in when doing m+ in premade groups, I think the loot should be isolated from the loot that the m+ would drop naturally but could be a good incentive to have people test the m+ queuing system.
I think solo Q m+ would work. Remove physical keys and just have a list of "key difficulties" To get key 3 you need to have done a 2 on time in that specific dungeon. Have a box to check "i want to time/or complete" They could also cap the key level att maybe KSM level, remove death penaltys in the solo Q. As many comments says. As a offmeta spec id rather que up, take my chances and do WQs and such while i wait instead of spending hours activly queing/getting declined not getting to play the game.
The only way I see a solo queue mythic+ system would work, score system would totally need to be reworked, similar to how arena rating works. Also with priest for example, having no poison clense you can't have dungeons with . amount of poison.
yeah biggest pain behind LFG is that you CANNOT do anything else for like 15 minutes.. solo q will allow you to farm, craft, quest while que is happening..
Here is my proposal for Solo Queue, remove group finder it will interfere with the times. Make brackets based on your score but it’s sorted into divisions like league such as silver, gold, platinum, emerald, diamond, master and so forth. The queue matches you with similar scores and picks a key level that is top end of the average score. So the group is always attaining score or more rating. Finishing the group is simple and not timed under certain keys, and you can always Queue up again to replace leavers. People who get slotted in will get full rewards so no friction. As you reach higher keys you get buffs your team can vote on if your team isn’t viable or super meta but you get 80% of normal rating gained. Tanks and healers get more gold, mats and valor stones.
Queue for m+ could work only for keys up to 10 since M+ is already split in two different brackets. It would be a cute way to get into m+ and do your grinds/title without bothering too much and still leave room for the more expert crowd to group in premades and do high keys. I just hope that you could decide the levels of keys you queue for and it's not too automated (i.e I want to farm a low level for some reason and I'm in a high one or vice versa). But I doubt Blizzard would screw it like that.
Maybe a cool change to tier would be to take DF season 4 bullion system and put that onto tier gear instead. You do some task, get a token you can use to exchange for a tier piece, then that one single piece can be leveled the same way the bullion items were with having 12ish levels and crests or some similar currency being used to upgrade it. I'd even be fine with a system like that stopping tier before it enters Myth track item level range, then do something different for Myth track tier gear.
I'm really sad that when you pick dark ranger on hunter your arcane shots or rapid fire or any archer abilities dont just become dark purple arrows, or when your black arrow goes off you get a spoopy black misty glow to your character. Literally just anything lol.... It seems like a really a really easy win for that spec that they just didnt do.
I was also thinking about having more ilvl than intended is the reason why lvl 70s can destroy the dungeons. So I logged on my super scuffed prot pala from season one that had 405 ilvl, Dungeons drop 415 ilvl loot at lvl 70 so I was definitely not overgeared. And even with these parameters I was invincible. The dmg output was definitely less than a fully geared lvl 70 but I was still topping dmg. Mobs also did zero dmg. Pretty sure I could pull the whole dungeon without any trouble. It's definitely more than a having gear thing.
You cannot lock your character and do dungeons for good scaling in dungeons. Whoever is in your party would get a MASSIVE XP nerf. It only worked if you for some reason wanted to help random pugs.
I just wanna put it out there. I am on a big server. I have been dc constantly since prep patch. I really hope they fix the servers because I’m getting tired of getting kicked off all the time but I still love the game and I love the contents. To put it in perspective I didn’t have any problems at all during season three but it’s been progressively getting worse every single day so I really hope they fix the servers.
If you play a non meta spec it is hard to get into dungeons that give score, even though when you do get in you smash the dungeon, actually getting in is the hardest part. Building these unfailable groups takes forever anyway
The "Make your own group" advice doesn't really work, but how will people that only play with premades know. No one signs up if you are a non-meta dps and have no tank/healer in the group and don't have the "needed" IO.
If you're posting a 10 at 1500io, yeah no one's gonna sign up. Eventually you need to lower both your key and your expectations lol. While it would be awesome to get a fully filled group of pumpers in your 10 when you're undergeared with low io, that's called a "carry" and normally people charge for that.
i would be in favor of a queue system where you can que into a plus 7 key with randoms with a timer and complete it for aspect crest and lot and than leave the dungeon that be cool. or just que into a mythic dungeon thats set at a plus 10 level with no timer for a shot at aspect crest
They really answered my questions about who would win in a wwe match between the bench podcast and the poddy c crew, and if they named the podcast "the bench" in a hail mary to get moonkin buffed going into tww but NOW they answer my non troll question of what's each hosts favorite bench in azeroth only to get my good name slandered. unreal
I exclusively pvp so maybe I'm not the target audience but solo queue M+ would singlehandedly make me actually play the game mode. I thought solo shuffle was conceptually a mistake until I tried it and now I nearly only solo shuffle. I don't pve almost solely because I don't want to do the whole LFG meta song and dance when playing for short play sessions. It's hard to put into words how much less stressful it is when you don't have to think about if someone will take your class, if you are meta or not, or how long they will spend researching your wow resume. The amount of talk I've heard from pve types about spending hundreds of thousands of gold to inflate their ilvl in ways they admit are irrelevant solely for getting noticed in LFG should be raising flags. It also freshens things up; we all learned to play off meta in pvp and its lead to a ton of fun. I would LOVE for that kind of think on your feet and work with what you got gameplay to come to pve.
I think a lot of people got early access because it was part of the epic edition of the game. It was not a selling factor to me as I have bought the collectors edition of every wow expansion. Dragon flight epic edition was the same price. I am curious to see how many people bought the epic edition for early access who otherwise would not have.
I logged in that first night of early access and literally every single person in my guild besides me was playing early access. I made it 30 minutes before i just paid to open the new xpac to be able to talk with guildies about stuff. Fortunately the money is not a concern but definitely feels bads that blizzard offered it and i felt pressured to get it. The biggest thing for me was i had the weekend off and could play so that tipped me over the edge instead of waiting until monday night when i would only have an hour or so after work. I get it is a money maker for blizz and it will have no long term impact but the fomo was real.
Only 22% of players have the heroic/epic edition mount, so fewer than 22% of players actually purchased the epic edition. I'd guess maybe 15% bought epic.
dude current LFG que for DPS is already like 20 minutes.. yes 90% would rather sit in que while doing WQ, professions, renown, etc.. then sit there and look at 'rejected' groups for like 20 minutes..
These solo queue takes are unhinged, any solo players below title range are 100% clicking a button to game instead of browsing LFG. Queue times are going to be strictly better due to a streamlined queuing system. If they’re worse, it’s only because a bunch of DPS players are now interacting with M+ after being discouraged by the LFG system. Implementing a queue isn’t straightforward or easy, but if successful, it’s an infinitely better world for 99% of players. Imagine if League of Legends was only available for premades, game would be dead.
"any solo players below title range are 100% clicking a button to game instead of browsing LFG" This just isn't true and they addressed it. Tanks and healers will take being able to build their own groups and curate the players they accept ANY DAY over rolling the dice and praying the team is competent for their 8x weekly 10s. It's just a matter of reducing risk to maximize progress in the limited time we have to game. I play healer and am by no means a title pusher, but I time my 10s to get my portals and I wouldn't touch solo queue with a 10 foot stick to time 10s. Fail rate in pug premades for 10s is a solid 40-50% already, why would I ever risk making that even higher? Score isn't enough to sort players in a queue. I've seen plenty of 2500+ players running around with no enchants, bad/off role trinkets, unfinished tier sets late in the season, and worse. In LFG, I weed these people out by inspecting them before an invite. Can't do that in matchmaking.
If they got rid of premade group finder in replacement of just having the queued M+ dungeon then we would probably just use an addon that brings back group finder like we had in MoP rather than trusting any queue
I’m in the would rather lvl on the weekend than a Tuesday group. I also have 2 characters above 580 lol raiding immediately. The weeks in between launch and raid are rough , I’m bored, crest capped, valor capped. Now a whole week of nothing
People still keep queueing up for League games even if they're on like a 30% win rate. If you separate the pre-made and solo que rating systems aswell as creating incentives for multi-role classes to try tank/healer, I doubt it'll harm the health of m+
This solo que discussion is pretty frustraiting to listen to. They are assuming that it will work way to much as the current system. I agree that it is not likely to be good but for different reasons and this whole discussion was a bit off the mark.
The off-meta solo queue experience isn't waiting 30 minutes for an invite. It's spam applying to groups for an hour + before giving up and logging off. Solo queue doesnt fix waiting, but what it does do is GUARANTEE that at some point after queueing I will be in a group. That alone is a massive win for the types of players this would be targeted at.
All 3 of you actually have the worst takes on solo queue. "There's no precedent for adding solo queue to something that didn't have before actually improving it." I don't know if you've ever heard of this, but back in vanilla and TBC there was no queue system for dungeons and it was VASTLY improved once they added the LFG tool.
Squishy also said for the content to go well with a queue system that the content had to be trivial/have a high success rate, which, vanilla/tbc/wrath dungeons were
