For people saying that they were being sensitive and that they shouldn't have signed up for the tournament. The game between Tony and Alex was agreed upon in the beginning to be a relaxed gamed based on intent. Alex had told Tony his intention that he wanted to move the rest of his army along with doing his deep strikes. Tony only decided to hold the rules against him at this specific mistake. Almost the exact same kind of thing happened to Tony later in the final game but because Tony had held Alex to the rules, Tony's oponent held Tony to rules which cost him the grand prize of the tourny
Rules either mean something or they don't. You don't get to play fast and loose with you codex when it suits you. If that were the case someone's Guardsmen would have laz guns that could one shot Wrathknights, and Mutilators that could attack Solitaires a foot and a half away.
Tony was taking a hard line the first and third clip. They seem like the same game. The second clip comes after where the other guy takes a hard stance against Tony saying he didnt let it slide so neither will he.
@@user-uk7qt8ui1r This, unless theyre already bare chested fucbois with minor felons and unresolved childhood anger issues, most people in hobby scenes like gaming, table top ect wont cause a scene
Honestly almost any time you take something that should be a fun "beer and pretzels" experience and try to gussy it up for pro competition it winds up filled with nobs like this.
Yeah for whatever reason in the US the dudes who couldn't get a varsity letter in any sport thing its somehow alpha male to dominate a table top game. Super macho and tuff. If I yelled at nick nanaviniti and jazz lennon Irl they would piss themselves
It's why I never play competitively, and always field the fluffiest, most absurd units possible (and why I'm naturally drawn to Ork and Skaven armies). I'm here to have fun. Winning is not on my "to do" list.
I played in exactly 2 tournaments. After the second, I swore never to go back. Worst type of people, fickle, unclean, and rude. They would never speak to someone like that outside of a tournament.
I’m guessing there was some serious talk about him catching Alex out and people were pissed about it so he got his karma. Good on the guy who wouldn’t let him use the stratagem.
Unpainted/unfinished models, check. Half-ass, symmetrically placed terrain on bland game mat, check. People taking hour long turns, check. Welcome to 40k.
40k as a tournament, local scene is rather different, less tactically sound, but the models and terrain are better and it tends to turn out a lot more laughs and memorable stories 😂
@@GundamReviver unfortunately the group at my local store is obsessed with matched play and meta chasing and yet they wonder why they can't bring in new players or retain players.
Clip one, one guy was being petty over half inches. Clip two, the guy was trying to use a stratagem at the wrong time and the other guy called him out on it and wouldn't let it slide, leading to some salty arguing. Clip three, the guy was doing something out of order at the end of his movement phase and the other guy called him out leading to a salty concede.
Clip 3 happened before clip 2 and it is the same guy. In clip 2 the denied the movement phase of his opponent and in clip 3 that guy got his stratagem denied.
The clips are out of order. Basically "Player 1" tries to be smug "You've been playing for HOW long?". Next game (clip 3) he gets called by "Player 2" out for playing a Deep Strike out of turn and saltily concedes the game. "Player 2" then gets called out (in clip 2) for not declaring a Stratagem at the right time (and is annoyed but concedes that he never even mentioned using the Stratagem). His opponent mentions that "Player 2" rules-lawyered the last opponent so he's going to hold "Player 2" just as accountable.
I mean casual play whatever, if you are in tourney play the rules exist to take out the ambiguity and potential future confusion over I will allow you to do this because you missed it, play to the rules pretty simple......
Oh man that is some good ass karma My mate is ranked as one of the best chaos players in the world currently. He specifically reminds his opponents of the rules to ensure a fair game. He will literally warn them "okay, if you do that, that means I can do X. Is that really the intention here?" and let them replay. If you can't win without being an utter dick, you don't deserve to win
I don't really understand why you would want to do that though as you're not allowing your opponent to make mistakes and thus the competitive element is lost. Or am I misunderstanding something? I don't play or really enjoy competitive 40k btw.
@@hillehai Because a wargame is about strategic errors, not errors of rules. Or at least, it should be If I position a unit badly, leaving a point undefended for example, and my opponent capitalise, then great; they are the better commander If I decide to do something that would be correct had I not remembered the weird, niche rule that only my opponents army has access to, then auto lose, it feels really really bad. For both players in all honesty, it also means any good decisions from the winning player were also invalided because the whole match just pivoted around one stupid mistake What my friends and I do is state intention a lot. Like, "I intend to deploy this unit just outside of your range of fire". Then, if a table knock or something happens and one model is juuuust in shooting range, it's easy for my opponent to say "no worries, I understood what the state should be here" Basically, the "fun" bit is being a commander of a battlefield, not memorizing a rulebook
@@hillehai There is multiple schools of thought here. There is one where, you don't play by intent, but you do courtesy tell your opponent your abilities for each unit before the game starts, so they can't say they "didn't know". Or, you can play by intent, and make sure both yourself and your opponent understand all actions and reactions before making a play or while making a play. Some would say the later is not how competitive works. I am a play by intent player. Does this probably lose me games? Sure, but I would rather win on my own merits, than winning because my opponent simply forgot something I could do as a reaction, or because they thought their unit was behind a building, but a small piece can be seen, etc.
@@chameleonedm "If you know yourself but not your enemy, for every victory you will suffer also a defeat." A good "commander of a battlefield" would keep that in mind and not expect to be handed freebies every time they make a mistake. If you don't like memorizing rules, tabletop games ain't really for you.
This is EXACTLY why I refuse to play tourneys. I play fun games with my local groups and it stays light hearted and meaningless. When gamers start getting salty and serious about a GAME?...they've lost perspective of what they are really supposed to be doing. Having fun.
My friends and I play somewhat competitively (in our friendly games it’s how we get better) and whenever we make a mistake where we need to mulligan, if it’s not like a biiiiig deal then we just roll off for it! Keeps it fun!
At the tournaments I've been to, this is the sorta salt/ passive aggressive behaviour you do see. If people make a show of it, then judges are more likely to get involved. It rarely gets beyond a knowing look between the two players and seemingly neutral remarks that hold additional meaning.
@@AllThingsCubey I take your word for it. Don't do tournaments though I have seen some spectacular tantrums over the most trivial rule challenges in a GW store. I thought a tournament would magnify it...guess I was wrong
@@michaeldavies7949 Nah. Tournament cheaters are more subtle about being scummy because, once caught by their opponents, they need plausible deniability. There's also ego on the line, I feel, and losing your shit over plastic minis is probably more damaging to their ego than being caught cheating over them. I can confirm, beating a cheater is a delicious feeling. If you can go "sure, whatever you say" and let them get away with some of their little cheats, and win regardless, the salt in their voice when they tell you "good game" (because they have to keep up appearances) is peak satisfaction. Then you can just give them a knowing look and a "sure." Both of you know exactly what's up.
These guys are fucked. I don't play 40k, but when we play stuff, we let people go back so long as nothing else that would effect anything has happened. It's supposed to be fun guys. Good sportsmanship feels better.
Back in an old White Dwarf magazine there was a Battle Report for 40k (Second Edition - I'm old). One player forgot a rule that could have changed the course of play. They wrote in the Battle Report that in these instances you are supposed to 'go back in time' where possible and play on from there. (If this isn't practical you have to let it stand, of course). Sadly, this attitude never prevailed in 40k.
40k looks so cool, I love the art design or everything, most of the games are brilliant, miniature painting is so satisfying, the lore is so cool and everything about it is awesome..... But then I see people playing and it looks dull af with sweaty, salty, man children talking about dice and getting tape measures out
Can’t believe Nick Nanavati caught his opponent in that kind of gotcha game. It was obviously his opponents intent to use the advance and charge strat from the beginning of the turn. Smh Edit: After watching it again, I think Tony pulled the exact same gotcha on another opponent. So if that’s the case then good call by Nick
That's exactly what happened. Turbo competitive shitbag had his own "gotcha!" tactics used against him. Of course, he protested saying "the situations aren't the same thing" when he did it to his opponent earlier. They never are, according to people like that. They often hold their opponents to a higher standard than they hold themselves. So glad I don't play competitive tabletop gaming anymore. Most of my opponents were decent guys, but there are weeds in every garden that could ruin a convention experience.
its actually a bit worse, at the start of the recording Alex says you dont have to measure to the T, if you say your placing them at 18 to screen and not allow deepstrikes between the scouts and his more important back models. He states that he will play by intent and tony just has to say thats what hes trying to do and Alex will not then check every model to the exact inch to ensure he cant deepstrike in that area. Tony let and helped alex drop his deepstrike in and then once they were placed he was like "gotcha nothing else can move". This is why Nick called him on the advance and charge strat even though it was probably understood thats what he wanted to do. If you watch the Art of War battle reports and I think i've even seen it at actual tournaments Nick will normally let you do what you intended even you did it somewhat incorrectly even if it costs him the game. He's just holding dude to the same kind of level he treated his last opponent. The intent was Alex wanted to drop the deepstrikes so he didnt forget and even if dude wanted to play by the rules he coulda just said deep strikes last in movement bro, move and ill help you remember deepstrike after your normal movement. Dudes even playing eldar like your playing 70+% winrate army you prob dont need to gotcha.
Been playing since Rogue Trader ... the new blood in the tournament scene is a bit overly competitive for a miniatures game. "Not going to let you do that" - give me a break. If that's how you need to win a game ....
These are usually the top tier players, people usually are cool with correcting sequencing mistakes and takebacks as long as you're consistent, i.e. you're willing to break tedious rules and they are within reason, but yeah it's sort of like this as a rule. When you're playing people who you have never met before, you have to use the rules as written. If it's just a group of friends, you can house rule stuff between each other and iron out the kinks of the game to make it fun, but when you have hundreds of players you can't do that, and unfortunately being as strict on the rules as possible is the way to go. Did I mention these games are timed too? Part of me wishes to go back to a scene where it was more loose with the rules and house ruling stuff was more common. That way you could houserule with friends to resolve some of GW's balancing issues or you could fix some of their stupid missions (I swear no one proofread their Crusade missions, some of them don't even work as written). The other issue is that you can make a narrative league and try to create a fluffy list to fit a narrative, that doesn't work tactically, but then all it takes is one player who didn't get the memo and comes up with a full on meta list because, quite frankly, they don't seem to know how to play otherwise. Like they were talking about how, before a game, they had an excel sheet to decide what would be the best hypothetical target for one of their units. That stuff is pretty cool for competitive but not as much for narrative. As a result, narrative in my experience is less fun than competitive.
Oh this hurts. Confession time... I played a T'au player in my teenage years. First time against T'au and I am getting destroyed by all the shoting and moving back so I can't charge my guys into his squishy blue aliens. I was getting pretty annoyed by this and didn't have anything to counter it. In the 3rd round he forgot to do his movement after shoting and I didn't let him rectify the move. Pretty close to what happened in the video. Because of that I got into melee and won ofc. God, I feel so bad for doing that even 14 years later. Never saw the dude again but every time I remember it I tell the story so other people don't make the same mistake. Play for fun people!
Theres got to be a clear distinction between rules and tactics. Rules should be explained clearly without giving away tactics. Its a fine line to tread but I guess thats where umpires come in
I like how people ask if they can take stuff back in a tournament or "I forget to do this then..is it ok if I do it now" Lol no one learns the game like this.. play by the rules 100%(have talk about rules before tournament starts).. no "give me" crap.. lol You don't see people in chess tournaments say.." oh I didn't want to move there .. can I take it back or .. I should have moved my Pawn instead is it ok if I do that.. lol The answer is NO......
Bluhfer it depends. If you're playing competitively then sure, you follow the rules 100% so it's fair game. But if it's not competitive it's really not all that important. Fun is the goal, everything else is secondary.
I remember from my competitive warmachine and 40k days the types of players that thrived on winning through technicalities, "gotcha!" moments, and missed steps in turns to try and screw their opponent (especially when they were losing a game). People at the conventions would laugh at them behind their backs and insult them because no one likes players like that. They were basically pariahs, and it's definitely the biggest part of conventions I do not miss at all. All that excessive competitiveness for what? To get a 1st place trinket and their photo taken at the booth. Maybe they got a coupon to an online retailer too. Totally worth it lmao
The only thing you learn is that you dont want to play this game anymore. This game has Thousands of Rules(special rules etc.) you cant remember all or you dont use the right order because you wont abuse it. Most Guys go on Tournaments to have as much Warhammer pressed in one Day. And then there are these guys who just wanna win a fucking FUNNY PLASTIC SOLDIER game by waiting that one Player makes a OBVIOUS mistake., or like in this Videos even "helps" them to make this obvious mistakes. But to be honest i once let a dude run into a Open Knife in a Tournament... he positioned his Warpspiders behind a Ruin, he thought i cant run trough, with my Berzerkers... but i did, because you can. I felt bad for it because he was a nice guy, but he played Eldar and i just had a Army full of Berzerkers in 3 Rhinos and one Landraider.
Yeahh similar things happen with my friends when we play, but we play casual and will let a correction happen. At a major tournament I understand taking a hard line cuz of rules. That guy especially was like you didnt let it slide with Alex so Im not gonna let it slide with you. Sure you intended, but you didnt act upon that intention. For the most part allowing corrections makes a game more fun so both armies play at their supposed best given your tactics and strategies. But in a major tournie youre playing to be the best, that involves remembering every one of the 500little details you have to remember during your turn in the correct order. I see nothing wrong here!
Basically, Tony and Alex agreed to play based on intent, no rules lawyering bullshit and that things can happen out of sequence. In the third clip, after Tony took a fucking hour for his first turn (which is ridiculously fucking long, since a game is two hours and thirty minutes), Tony helped Alex setup a deepstrike, then told him his movement phase was over since that happens at the end of the movement phase, basically ruining the playing by intent agreement. In the second clip, Nick did the exact same thing to Tony that Tony did to Alex, costing him the 1st place spot.
Hey guys new to the hobby and still trying to learn about the game. What exactly happened. What was the mistake Alex did and what was Tony's respond that got him so hated?
I am also new, but I think I have an idea. I believe this was turn one, and both players had positioned their armies in their spawns, and were beginning their movement phase, towards the mid-table. Certain units have an ability called deep strike, where in the movement phase you can deploy them anywhere on the mid table, or your spawn, under some specific guidelines. One of those guidelines is that the deep strike must happen at the END of your turn, not the beginning. Fennel forgot this, and did deep strike with a unit before he moved any of his other units, and thus per the rules declared the end of his movement phase. This meant essentially that he had to skip an entire turn, and just did deep strike leaving an expensive unit on the mid table with no cover, to be picked off easily, and had to fight an uphill battle the entire game while behind one turn on positioning every step of the way. Needless to say, it cost him the game. Apparently a lot of the community felt that even though this was a national tournament, that meant everything to these guys that Fennel should have been offered a mulligan to re-do his movement phase, because people wanted to see a close battle between the two 1st place contenders. His opponent said, this is a tournament, not a house game sorry but no thank you. My opinion is this is a gotcha cheap tactic for sure, but it IS the rules, and Fennel messed up at the end of the day.
They both agreed to a casual, play by intent game. Alex asked if he could set up his deep strike units before moving his stuff (deep strike happens at the END of the movement phase). Tony agreed to let Alex set up his deep strike models under the impression that he could still move after that, to avoid forgetting to put them down, which is quite common. After Alex places his models, Tony insists that because deep strikes happen at the end of the movement phase, that Alex's movement is now over, even tho a minute or so earlier, he implied that Alex could still move his dudes normally. He basically said " yeah go ahead and do your stuff in whatever order and it's fine", and then pulled the rug from under his feet by using those orderings against him after saying he wouldn't. Total dick move in any game
How you generating this much salt during the pregame and Turn 1? Does no one know how to play, or is it just such an awful game to play that playing by the rules is something people are trying to avoid as often as possible that it creates this kind of interaction?
Weird, I've had the opposite experience, especially in competitive 40k. These kinds of moments are very few and far between, and the people involved in them (the guys being poor sports) have had their names DRAGGED by the community for it (and rightly so). Local events are even lower pressure than big GTs like this, and tends to be more chill.
Nah playing intent is so much better No one has the time being exact millimeters at every second of a game It's a game for toy soldiers, take the rod out your arse
This is what happens when the company developing the game doesn't give a s**t about competitive and how the community lives the game. The rules are not precise enough to have a proper competitive ecosystem, everybody wants precise rules (the battlefields are too random and there are often no line of sight breakers). They should learn from Magic: after the "name a card" rule crate problems in tournaments multiple times, they introduce an official rule forcing both players to agree on the chosen card. W40k should have a similar rule about everything...
Gabriele Granocchia literally every conflict shown was purely because the guy didn't read his rules. The rules are precise the guy just didn't check them.
40k isn’t and never was intended as a competitive game. If people still want to be salty over unprecise rules maybe they should play warmahordes instead.
This is a compilation of players screwing up and getting upset that "no backsies" is a thing. If you Deep Strike out of turn, too bad, your Movement phase is OVER.
The game does not lend itself to tournament play at all. It has not been, is not, and never will be anywhere close to being balanced for that type of play. Just for starters, the tables are all different, the dice people use are different, the armies dont have the same number of units. I love the game it's just a joke and a square peg trying to be fit into round hole when it comes to tournament play.
most of this mistakes are simply "order" mistakes, i mean most of the time both players know what is intended or even talk about that. And then out of nowhere one guys says " i actived my trap card" aka "you didnt said it in the right phase". Just stupid bullshit, this isnt chess.
I've encountered numerous games w Tony he's a malignant narcissist and cheater. He cannot tolerate losing a game probably because his dad beat the shit out of him as a child
