Warhammer and Controversy, Keep perspective and refuse extremists 

A few points of rebuttal: -Space marine selection includes kids as young as 8 years old. Sexual dimorphism begins with puberty. When recruiting pre-pubescent kids there isn't going to be any noticeable difference - augmentation is essentially an alternative to puberty. Now some chapter will recruit 15 or 16 year olds and the Space Wolves can recruit 20 year olds so obviously that's a bit different. Also, interestingly, most chapters use exposure as their main trial and women are actually more resistant to it than men! We've also seen sickly children with tough minds make for fine space marines in many cases so the physical attributes of the recruits don't seem to matter as much as their mental resilience. -with regards to feasibility for Custodes, ADB has said for years that the process would absolutely work on females. Maleness also isn't a core part of Custodes identity like it is for space marines. -With regards to the way they did it, this is also how they handled newcrons, grav weapons, Centurion suits etc.

Greetings, thank you for the comment. You have a lot of good points here that should absolutely be a topic of conversation. So let us chat about your proposed points and acknowledge and discuss them. Ok, so let's start with the space marine creations. The number of aspirants that die in making space marines is LUDICROUS. I still stand to the point that we are genetically modifying humans to their peak, and the differences in males and females wouldn't survive this process. I still deposit that if we want the "rational" argument based on real life, then the argument becomes, "fuck them throw everyone into the woodchipper; whoever survives comes out a marine." Because this is war, and it's a war that humanity is not winning, even if you deposit that there is enough of a difference, it becomes a moot point once we get into the need in the setting for more marines. I would also like to take this moment to point out that if we are basing this on the lore answers, then Primarchs should not exist because they are a retcon. So, I want to bring to attention that there are not many arguments for why there shouldn't be that don't boil down under scrutiny to "boys are better" or "because WOKE," and we as a community are better than that. So, a comment on military standards: TRUST me when I say that the standards to get into the military today are significantly less than previous generations. It is also worth noting that things like the Navy Seals don't lower anything, and they got their first female graduate recently. As a sidebar, remember that until recently, women weren't ALLOWED to try and become Seals. It wasn't that they couldn't DO it. It was that they weren't allowed to try. See, I disagree with some interpretations here regarding how humanity would inflate. And in fact, we see evidence of what I propose in our fiction. But I digress. We live in a world where men have dominated for a long, long time, and as a man, it's easy to get defensive when this topic comes up, and I have to check myself sometimes in transparency. But there is much evidence that women will and do rise to seats of power with or without "permission," and I promise you, the woman of a wealthy family raised to be a soldier will beat the shit out of a man raised by a poor family to be a soldier. Opportunity, health, and genes are many factors to consider. The reality of our world is that the elite and super wealthy stay in the 1% because they have the most opportunity and advantage. So, when we scale that to hive cities, if you want the best of the best, you have both genders, rouge traders and high empire citizens, which are 1%, and there are conatively many females in those roles. Physical ability poetically is irrelevant when you are going to super solider someone. Toughness and flexibility might increase the survival rate. There is a solid argument, but I prefer to look at it as what comes out isn't human. So, it doesn't matter what went in. The need for cogs in the war machine will outweigh any gender biases present in any setting. It is also worth pointing out that space marines, by and large, are taken as children, and their development is rigorously overseen and controlled. Now, let's splash in some real-world things here. GW lost a lawsuit against Chapterhouse a long while back, leading to the police saying, "If there isn't a model, don't make it a thing." THAT has had more to do with the only male space marines and Grey Knights and Custody than anything the architects of Warhammer have said they want to make stories with female custodians but couldn't, which is the prevailing reason. Also, worth noting (I got this from the PoorHammer podcast and love those guys) is that now that the Horus heresy is done. We are moving to BEFORE that, and it makes much sense that GW wants to allow the writers to pursue the idea of female Custody. The other theory is that Amazon pushed for it, which might also be true. This is where I think all of us who are reasonable can agree that GW did not have to handle this situation like this. There were LOTS of options, and ANY of them would have been better than how they chose to resolve this. So let me, as a representative of men and an advice lover of women, shed some light on why the brotherhood misogynistic argument is out of line HERE. Now, please know I am only talking about Warhammer and GW, which is all this applies to. There is a reason that some people want representation in the Space Marines and the elite is simple, and it is not because of misogynistic ideology. The only people I have ever seen make that argument are fake fans who want to come into this space and start shit under their political ideology and people who assume that that is the reason but have never actually asked anyone from a demographic who would know and cares about the hobbies. They want female space marines, and none gender space marines, and space marines that don't give a fuck about gender for the same reason you and I want space marines in our hobbies…. because they kick ass. They are an allegory for being "better" than we are; they face the darkness of nothing and never flinch. They are written and treated like gods in their lore(tabletop is a different story, but I digress); the women who want this want it because they want to have an avatar in this setting, JUST LIKE WE DO. And that reality is being buried behind these vultures. Woke this, anti-WOKE that. Blah blah blah, Star Wars died not because of woke but because when their fan base had an opportunity to hold them accountable and be reasonable so that the accusations of bigotry could be discussed, no one did. Everyone let the extremists do what they wanted, and it was lost. (For now) Please hear me when I say you cannot fight ignorance with ignorance and win. Being sterile isn't what makes space marines note "male." It's part of what makes them not "Human." On Spiderman, the game is or isn't woke. I honestly don't get to play video games much anymore. Still, the story of Spiderman (MM) is well built from the ground up and a fantastic representation of what's possible and why the other Spider-verse folks feel incomplete by compassion. And you know, honestly, if "white" Peter Parker takes a break from the line light, that is ok. It's ok for newer, different takes to take their turn, and it doesn't devalue what was there before(unless it does, but for the sake of this argument). Yes, ethnic/sexual orientation/gender-washing characters are insulting to the people they should represent. We should shun them, but at the same time, we have an obligation as fans of that medium to try to lift our fellow humans. If you care enough to complain about it, you care enough to advocate for a better way that includes more people. I agree 100% that there must be elements of real life in fiction that anchor us. We disagree because I understand that there are other people in this world and that representing me doesn't mean they feel represented. I am very fortunate in representation. There is usually someone or thing I can identify with, so it is not fair for me to say that other people should feel the same when they AREN'T represented. Let's talk about sisters quickly on that topic. SOB love them, battle nun good shit. Tell me with a straight face that objectively, SOB is not the Robin to Space Marine's Batman. They are a consolation prize with a fanatic's coat of paint. And I like them, but they are. The space marines are at the top of the top and get the most out of the game workshop efforts, and sisters couldn't even get superhuman added to their list. It is not because the brotherhood is misogynistic. It is because women want the cool shit too. And you know what? A few chapters of Female Space Marines do not affect the other chapters' brotherhood. Including females doesn't mean there can't be chapters that are men only. Although in my opinion I think that's a boring option. But I also think space marines are human and shouldn't conform to humanity anyway. Lastly, the line "you need to be able to see yourself in the character" is the real issue here. For me, and I assume you, it's never been an issue. But for some people, it has been. And who are we to tell them they are wrong? We don't own this IP, and miniature-wargaming is something they can relate to; it's not behind a veil that we must approve. If someone doesn't feel like they have a character, they can relate to why we must stop them. It took me some effort the first time someone challenged my thinking on this, but the reality is that some women and people who want to be super badass soldiers don't identify in the way that I do. Why is it fair for me to tell them no because, in this situation, I already have SO MUCH, and they were given pity factions? If a woman or a girl wants to be a Boss Bitch Space Marine captain, if that ignites her creativity and lets her experience the story, then who am I to stop that. We don't need ALL of the bother hoods of the best. We can share some and still have our brotherhood stories. And if GW was wise (not that I think they are), they could easily make that conflict mirror this real-life conflict as if it were human. Why do you want more? Why can't you share? That's as human as it gets. Much love! PS. Just to be clear fuck sweet baby inc., their bullies and opportunist are trying to take advantage of people who are trying to be better, they are evil, and we should all be holding them to the task. Same for BGG, and Blackrock. Hold these opportunist bigots to task. But don't let Yourself become a monster while you do it; be better. I know you can.

Thank you for taking time to comment. these are really good point, the human condition is complex and there is a lot too it. while these are great things to consider lets still remember at the end of the day GW could have just chosen to respect us lol. it is sad that its on us as a community to pick up and maintain our integrity but that is how it is. Much Love

Wow you really thought you were cooking? Then you had to get real racist, real fast and sexist. Pathetic

Thank you for the comment. I can’t imagine a scenario where thouse are our only options. Like there must be a better answer than this. Like why can’t there be a middle, why can’t I love the setting and the characters and also be open to new things. Really games workshops is built on changes and retcons. Like if you think that the “woke” are so powerful then shouldent you be looking for reasonable ways to allow a public company to exist. Cause the reality is that if games work shop dosent get a way to exisist that is more open then they will fail. While we can all hoot and holler business is business and the “woke” concerns are real. Here is a hot take if this hobby has become so polluted with “us or nothing“ and so inaccessible to new people that they have to be threatened to enjoy the hobby the way you do or they shouldn’t be allowed to enjoy it at all then this hobby doesn’t deserve to survive. If this hobby can only survive in a space where it’s done exactly the way one group wants then we really have become no better than the woke people you guys are so worried about and if you’re no better than you don’t deserve to succeeded anymore than they do. There is a middle ground here it dosent have to be us or them, my way or gtfo. And please understand that the gtfo my way attitude ends in our hobbie being like Star Wars. You cannot fight HATE with HATE You cannot fight Bigotry with Bigotry I know your better then that and I send you all my love.

@@DorknessInc. Why do you want to change decades long established lore to resemble current day trivial politics? Can you not see that it does nothing but water down the setting? There are entire female only factions already. Every race is represented, and always has been. The Imperium is in no way "tolerant". There's nothing even remotely resembling human rights or even mercy. They are xenophobic and authoritarian to the extreme. Alien? Kill it. Mutant? Kill it. Have a different perspective on imperial doctrine? You're going to be lobotomized, decimated, and made into a mindless servitor. The Imperium of Man doesn't care about your race or gender, as whatever you are, you're just meat for the grinder. Why? Because every other race will not hesitate in wiping out humanity in an instant, given the chance. That's why it's "grimdark", why I was interested in it in the first place, and that's why we, the actual fans, will not stand by as casuals try to change a beloved setting just to try to virtue signal.

@@DorknessInc.I get what you’re saying but they’re doing it in such a dumb way. Even the example you give fells like some gender bendy bullshit. I think the best way the could have done it was just say “there are experiments with females custodies. They have failed but we are making progress..” then in a few months make a few fake updates about their experiments working with a female being injected with straight testosterone.

@@DorknessInc. I left a 5 paragraph reply, but it seems RU-vid removed it. That's one reason to fight this "progressive" mob alone. 40k is not "modern day". If you insert today's trivial politics into it, the setting will suffer. The Imperium is not "tolerant". The Imperium doesn't care about your race or sex, as you are just meat for the grinder. There are whole female factions already. As long as it's not alien or mutant, it will be made to be of use, even if it's only as a mindless servitor. Every race is represented, and always has been in the unending nightmare that is 40k. That's why it's "grimdark", that's what first attracted me to the genre, and why I have spent multiple thousands of dollars over three decades on miniatures, codexs, ect. The people pushing this will buy nothing from GM. You know it. I know it. Even GM knows this, deep down. There's no room for rainbows, unicorns, and cute fuzzy kittens in this setting. Why should lore that has stood for decades be abandoned for what is little more than a corporate virtue signal?

People are free to enjoy it for what it is but arbitrary changes to suit the tastes of people with no investment in the hobby or the setting will eventually leave it ruined or unrecognizable. 40k as a setting is massive in scope; realistically it has "representation" all over the setting for almost any taste or interest. Instead of newcomers expecting things be arbitrarily altered and changed to suit their tastes and interests they should be exploring the setting and finding something that piques that curiosity. If nothing does, that's fine too. Everything doesn't have to be made for absolutely everyone. If you do this there will never be any quirks or distinctions that make settings unique or interesting.

Now repeat after me “It’s ok to share those spaces when their in the largest game company in a hobbie community. Girls marines and Custodians won’t make anything less for you unless the company makes it less for you, in which case the company was the problem not the girl” It’s a hobbie space for everyone.

What a fantastic post and what a great POV I think ur right about gw going down a peg or two and with the rise of 3d printing this is not the time to be openly disrespecting your fan base

I disagree and I would point you to One Page Rules, I feel personally like they are the best example of war gaming and modeling. There is a black market for counterfeit GW(a problem they largely made for themselves imo) but there are tons of great model creators that sell legit files.

@@abnon-tha3088 its a fair stance i think, and there are great games out there. but I personally found that OPR has the best mind set as a company. they guy that runs it dose a live straem every month now and talks to his audaicne about what happening and why. if you haven't looked into it, I cant recommend it enough. i even have some videos on it. (space lizardmen riding lizards with missle launchers is an option JUST SAYING)

To be fair, if you say Astartes aren't truly gendered anymore then there also aren't any males. I think what female space marine advocates want is for girls to be able to become them, not for Astartes to be feminine. With regards to sexually dimorphic traits - that all starts during puberty, and many space marine recruits are taken as prepubescent 8 year olds and then go through augmentation instead of puberty. Obviously Space Wolves with their canis helix that lets them recruit 20 year olds are a bit different.

Greetings. Thank you for taking the time to write such an in-depth comment. Let me offer some thoughts on what you have written here. First, some valid points here need to be acknowledged. Let me start with the fact that fiction must be limited. Suspension of disbelief is vital to telling a story. You're right. There has to be a balance. As a rhetorical question, let me ask why this is the line for you. Why does gender identity matter? As you said, mental gymnastics, if it doesn't matter and a group would be happier differently, why not just do it the way that makes people happier with it? This is a double-edged way of thinking, and it can sometimes have our personal biases. I would deposit that the thought of a mutant male is ok, but a mutant female is not. It may show that you are biased toward men getting the power and the status that comes with this setting marines. Please note that it is ok to have biases, but it's essential to be aware of them. As far as how far is too far, we have indeed jumped the shark at this point, my friend. And it happened LONG before this point. Please remember that despite what some "lore masters" would say about upholding the honor of the setting and how the basics haven't changed, EVERYTHING has changed. Even the Primarchs are a massive retcon. The Necrons are a wild retcon that we just all glossed over. And sci-fi has gone too far, the hive cities functioning at all, the dark elder at all, the Votan Leagues magic "we have been here in the middle the whole time surprise, and we clone ourselves," anything to do with chaos, and the plot armor that is The Emperor, who let me reiterate is not MALE the Emperor isn't male because the Emperor isn't HUMAN, that THING is a manifestation of psychic might that takes the body that suits it the best. But it is hard to write a good story that is easy to read if the pronouns are all over the place, so it is easier to read if it is HE. Moving on from the limits of fiction, if we are going to analyze the differences between men and women in terms of potential, we need a scientist specializing in biology because it is super complicated. We will not get it right here without much-unbiased research. The peak humans pushed to the extremes wouldn't matter what gender they had, and it's a limit of the human. Keeping in mind that most space marines are taken as children and conditioned, it is, in my opinion, sighted to think that only male children would work. There are conditions where kids don't easily fit into categories for gender. To my horror, an insurance specialist informed me that most large hospitals have an entire guidebook for doctors to decide which of the genitals of a child are "more developed" and remove or sew up the others. It is so common that the insurance doesn't even blink when it comes up. Sidebar about Navy seals: as of 2021, the first woman successfully completed the training to become a Seal www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/first-woman-completes-navy-special-warfare-training-n1274125 And even if we are going to go with the "women are inferior" argument you're putting forward here, it doesn't matter if they are still human. They can still be augmented. Cawl is literally making "better" marines in army sizes with "magic." If that is ok, then there is no reason this isn't, other than it supports the idea that men are better. Also, I would point out that mental toughness is the more important aspect, and nothing says there is a significant difference between males and females. There is no limit to how tall a custody can be. The face we accept 9ft tall if fucking ridiculous. To even entertain that a body like that could function is silly. But this comes back to the biases I mentioned: why is female custody as ridiculous to you as 20ft custody? I am not telling you that your opinion is wrong. If that is our opinion, then so be it, but take a step back and evaluate our biases and where they stem from. Suppose we argue that the superhumans don't have a gender. In that case, we acknowledge that this setting has superhumanoid monsters that look like humans, and a casual glance at chaos would provide some insight into the popularity of inhuman monsters that look humanoid. Or the Dark Eldar, for that matter. Females, from those I asked, want hulking monster representatives for the same reason men do. They're fantastic, they kick ass, there the best of the best. They are a human-like allegory for people to lose themselves in the fantasy of and live vicariously through. Why do YOU want them to be male? It's the same reason: they're fantastic, and they're depicted in the best ways with the most resources from the publishers put into them. First off, if you don't see a little of yourself in the Red Terror, then idk man, that is a personal problem. Me, that thing is my avatar (RT for prez 2024, let's retake Marrow) (god, that is an obscure old reference from an old Tyrinid book; shout out if you get it), but now you're saying that a woman wanting the factual best of the best that is based on humans, to have a female character is as ridiculous as seeing yourself in an unfeeling monster that only lives to feed. This is a jump. I am not asking you to change your mind, but consider what makes you feel that way. Lastly, the "point" of de-gendering the Emperor would be to acknowledge that magical immortal space shamans that may or may not be gods in their own right…are men… because they are not…lol. If a creature can freely change its gender at will for any length of time, it doesn't have a gender; it just has a preference in bodies for a while. (yes, mystique from Xman counts; she is not bound by gender unless she chooses to be there, for she fits this example.) and honestly, the Emperor can identify as "he 😊" wants that's the advantage of that ability. But that's not our decision as fans. Lastly, when the best writer(arguably) in black library says, "We always wanted there to be female custodies, but there was no plan for them to have models, so we weren't allowed to," that should be a pretty clear sign, this shouldn't have been a thing, they should exist, the literal architect of war hammer had them in mind. (Abnett, I believe) Look, I genuinely appreciate your comment and that you took the time to write it out, and I hope that my tone comes off as respectful and playful. I hope that you have something to consider. Yes, I have considered your arguments here as well. We don't have to agree to respect each other. Much love! Obviously, I put some thought into my answer, but as I was spell-checking (because my spelling is awful), I missed a point I wanted to bring up. The Iron Warriors, the evil bad guys, the inhuman monsters, think that women are nothing but breeding cattle for space marines and that their only value is to make men….I want you to think about that for a moment because if your beliefs line up with Nazies…or the truly evil people… then it might be time to look at our thoughts objectively…:D I am only kidding; I am not implying anything, but I do want to point out that your statements here align with the Iron Warriors way of thinking of women's potential…and that's worth a thought.

@@im2randomghgh I know you're not arguing that all differences in sex occur after the age of 8 because thats not right at all... still I am having trouble finding examples where recruits are younger than 10...the lore is written as "geneseed zygotes are keyed to male hormones and genetic structure", if we change the lore and we do science fiction augmentation to fully ignore or change the genetic code of aspirants arent we just making boys then? But If ignore all that and I say we were to write in a Mulan character that disguises themselves as an 8 year old boy and then still miraculously survives the trials and augmentation, we want that character to look the same as every other space marine too? Are they even female at that stage? All and all it seems like a lot of unfavorable hoops to jump through to not only make 0 dollars but also lose a lot of money. As I understand, this was the original reason that female space marine idea didnt make it far in the first place. Like I said I think the second and 11th legions could maybe give more room to play around with this idea, maybe as a lost technology before the heresy. But if people start unironically saying Female ultramarines or custodes then you've lost me.

​@DorknessInc I would just like to add that while reading your argument, there were a couple of biases I think you need to step back and evaluate. Also, about being on the side of the nazis which is a weird passive aggressive ad hominem attack on the original commenter; it's a GRIMDARK universe. This isn't a morally equal, inclusive, fantasy world. To take a moral argument and say that someone is wrong to support it for a GRIMDARK setting... it's just an idiotic argument. Chaos isn't a OMG I'm the BAD GUY 😢 type of feeling. This is the type of stuff that makes the Hellldivers franchise much more desirable than people-pleasing companies like GW and the franchises they have creative control over

@asdfghjkl3669 I apologize in advance. I simply don’t have time to give the sequence of comments time that it deserves, but I do want to clear up the Nazi thing. I’m not calling anyone a Nazi, but if you’ve ever found yourself agreeing with a group of people who are truly evil, the best example of in the real world being Nazis , you need to reevaluate what you’re saying and I’ve been there. I’ve had beliefs and had a Neo Nazi Repeat my belief verbatim and had to sit back and go OK it’s time to look real hard at what it is. I believe and see if I’m missing something I am very aware my bias I’m not telling you I’m wrong I’m attempting to offer a point of view that I don’t feel like he’s being represented in this current argument not between you and I but in the hobbie sphere. Much love

Ok absolutely fair points, sisters of battle are a cool faction, the problem with space marines being gender locked is because space marines are the poster child for this game and get the newest and best. And as my main offer gose there not human. But if you wanna play female badass super humans in walking power armor you “can’t” if you want to see a story that has a female protagonist that is an equal in threat or in power to a space marine your only choice is to go get a xeno and mat ward to retcon soem wild bs power spike. They aren’t human it dosent make sense to have gendered them. The emperor is a psychic being who reincarnated in multiple lives calling the emperor a “he” is a stretch. It’s more of a what. The primarchs are in the same boat there built beings that resemble humans. Not to mention the entire current setting can be boiled down to “the emperors greatest mistakes”. I just don’t want/like when people get caught up in this and become extremist and start touting “only men cause there the best, and this is all evil and the end of the world” like hold them to tsk but don’t let ursef loose sight of perspective. Gw is built on retcons, he’ll there was a time that the primarchs where a retcon. Anywho much love thank you for the comment

Only 5 of them and 2 of those are Female Only!

@@DorknessInc. Then write your own story and include. As a female who just got into Warhammer this change is really bad. I love the idea of a brotherhood and sisterhood. This middle ground thing dilutes and reduces the overall extremist vibe. Only the mediocre will enjoy something like that. No middle ground. Period.

@@DorknessInc. The SoB held their lines against FOUR chapters of marines including their MALE marine equivalent the Black templars, Fire Hawks, Soul Drinkers, and Imperial Fist and a large skitarii army prior to their official formation. They're already this powerful before they even were a galaxy spanning army in 41st millenium. They only need more written and canon feats! GW had only been lazy.

The middle ground is accepting that there are male-only factions and female-only factions.

Greetings, thank you for the lengthy response and thoughts, So let me start with this: everything that is Warhammer is negotiable and revisable. And what I mean by that is that everything in the current Lore results from retcons and revisions. As you mentioned, 30 years and hundreds of books suggest that many people have shaped this Lore. The idea that "it's horrible for a female to become a space marine" is silly. And I support that stance by saying this. In this universe, we have the following things: magic space travel through hell, space monkies that are artificers and unparallel engineers, we have hive worlds that don't collapse on themselves, and a magic space corpse being fed magic people to keep other hell magics from popping in, and there are magical space knights that are secretly made and able to battle the magic hell demons but are somehow still human, space ork fungus people that eat meat and drink while simultaneously asexually reprocessing, we have magic space fish people whom time skipped and let us not forget magical space Egyptian skeletons made of metal with magical plant erasing maps, we have Fabius Bile and Belisarius Cawl playing who can make the most miniature human. And all of this is ok, no problems, no matter how much "classic" Lore disputes it. But we are drawing the line at "girls can be super soldiers" I disagree. Now, as a second conversation, the Amazon Prime request for a change is a terrible way to do business and is invariant for bad faith stories. The writers at the Black Library have wanted to do female Custodies, so that says a lot. All Games Workshop has been cultured based on models produced by GW; ever since the chapterhouse lawsuit, that has been normal. That has had more power in our Lore than anything else. If it upsets you that GW did this in bad faith and gaslit, those are valuable, valid complaints, but to argue that this Lore is set in stone is willfully ignoring that retcon is GW's favorite way to do business. This hobby isn't just "ours." It's a hobby for anyone who wants it, and I have known people who do want female spacemarines, cause space marines are the poster children for this, and no one I have ever met feels like sisters(either) are on the same level as the marines. Regarding gatekeeping, what gives us the right to tell other people they can't be involved? Yes, there has been a huge quality gap recently, but I believe this backlash has more to do with predator groups like Sweet Baby Inc., who are fearmongering to make money. Keep that last bit in mind. It's the money. And if you want less of it, hold them to task and don't spend your money. It will change as these predators get called out. To say that "it has to be this way, it's ours" is selfish and foolish. This hobby was never ours, and we were a part of it. As far as snowwhite with guns, that's also kind of a short-sighted comparison. IIRC, the "everyone considered" folks went after them, too. And here is the thing I think gets lost by extremists: some people don't like being called midgets (what the snowwhite one was about). Some people feel like they aren't welcome because there are only subpar factions for them to see themselves (space marines vs. sisters, there is no fair comparison for how much lore/attention/money/effort) and giving them some heroes to see themselves isn't inherently wrong. We should be the example of how to bring people in and let them find representation, and when the "woke" came, we wouldn't have something for them to point at and say, "Look at that," and have a point. The male-only thing doesn't affect most people who play this because they are male, and it's irrelevant to them. The people it would affect won't play because there is no place for them. IDK about all of you, but men-only hobby shops of old tend to be filled with shit people who smell bad and are fucking rude. The last decade or two have been a breath of (literal) fresh air. Also, Having thoughts in a vacuum breeds the worst of human nature. Hobbies are for everyone, and the "eye of the woke" shouldn't control how we feel, good or bad. As a final note, yes, I am aware of the vast black library, but I did not know how many there are off-hand, and 30 is a manageable number to reference. However, many of the older books are retconned out anyway. Thank you for your time and efforts-much love.

If sex didn't matter, the Emperor would have made female Custodes and Space Marines.

@@clanpsi thank you for commenting, there are a few things about this argument that merit discussion, mostly that GW decided what the Emperor did, and then they changed it so he made primarchs. its an evouling universe lead by the black library writers, and the eternal chasing of the almighty dollar. so I mean if we are going by what the emperor said then we need to make some major changes and get these weird primarach out. just a thought really what dose it matter. if the lore is done well what difference dose it make. and as an acknowledgment, it was and is never ours its GW's we just support it. much love!

you know i agree the GW has done this in the worst way they could have. i believe that there is a difference between holding them to task for what they have done, and being the loudest. the loudest get the media attention, and the extremists. but the rational calm of us will still be here when the net woke thing pops off, and how we supported each other, and whos voices we pushed forward is going to be what determines what this space looks like afterword's. normal, rational, compassionate people don't have to be the loudest we have to be the most persistent and the most enduring. i dont want people to sit on the fence, but i dont want people to segregate themselves into camps of extremists who are using this as an opportunity to push agendas. We are better, we deserve better. Side bar: what do u play with Kingdom deaths do you paint there models? i dont see many of them painted pop up on my feeds much love!

Thank you for taking the time to comment. Diversity and representation are tricky topics, and intent tends to be a big factor. Bad intentions with good outcomes are hard to resolve. What fuels my stance as it is now (as always, its subject to new information) the writers want to tell stories that have females in custodian/marine, that I have met more then a few people in my local areas who wanted it to be a thing and most powerfully how many people I have met that refused the hobby because it was clear that they weren't allowed to be in the "best” and those people are OUR people and we failed them. woke is a terrible beast, but we can’t beat hate with hate. and even thou woke is what got the people all stirred up so that when a reasonable adjust of lore(handled in a terrible way) was implemented the people kind of lost their collective shit. and our community was flooded with people who DO NOT CARE about us or our community and are chasing agendas (on both sides) have you ever had the conversation about female space marines in a hobby shop, it got ugly when I saw it come up more often than not, so it because a problem no one wanted to deal with. hold GW to task, call out there BS, but reject the extremists, much love!

​@@DorknessInc. So full disclosure, I am a long term fan of GW but I am not currently particularly active in the hobby. Which I feel does help me to view this more dispassionately than some who are more emotionally invested at this time. But I am invested enough to care about the direction of the GW IPs. I am not what some might term a tourist. In terms of writers telling the stories that they want, it is difficult to really judge to what extent they can even do this in such a corporate environment. If they are telling the story that they want to tell and they want to include female Custodes of their own free will, then I do not have anything negative to say about that. But the way that it has been handled, without any sensible narrative and simply a retcon that is not publicly admitted to, this makes me suspect otherwise. From a narrative point of view, I don't even think it would be all that difficult. Something like revealing that the barriers were more just traditional (so a minor retcon) and that the expanded role of the Custodes outside of Terra provides an opportunity for women to prove themselves in their ranks might do it for me. '... how many people I have met that refused the hobby because it was clear that they weren't allowed to be in the "best” and those people are OUR people and we failed them.' This is the bit that I have trouble relating to and one of the reasons that it feels like a different standard to other works. There is quite a bit that could be said on this but I have no intention of seeking out any of these people and berating them for their views. I just do not understand the mindset that the player needs to be represented in a faction for them to feel that they have a right to play as that faction. As above, such a person would have little choice but to not play historical wargames because there is no real possibility of turning those into self inserts. But then we should also consider the other races in 40K. What person feels represented by the Orks or the Tyranids? But 40K has also always been a place where people can express their own creativity and create their own lore, even if it is not officially recognised as canonical. Even without them being official, I have seen some really rather well done female space marines and I fully respect both the right of the owner to do that, as well as the effort and probably love that went into the project. That person does not need GW to tell them it is OK. I'm not sure that I can agree that a fandom fails potential members because the official lore does not adapt in self serving ways. I think it fails them if they are rejected as people and diminished for their own self expression, which I appreciate does also happen. Fortunately I have not had the female space marines debate and I am thankful for that. I am not sure how much offense my stance on it would cause, which is essentially that I do not agree that they need to be included but I respect GW's right to weave them into the narrative if they choose. It often seems like trying to find middle ground or a moderate path just means you get shot at from both directions.

i truly love this hobby (i like One Page Rules, actual rules and business practices alot more) but i love the setting and the people i know who actually play this are engineers, doctors, and burger flippers in equal measure and none of them have ever been so hostile to any group of people. i dont want this special thing to become a place full of hateful extremists who think that no one elase is allowed to enjoy a hobby because they don't believe exactly like there particular group. you cant beat hate with hate, nor can you beat ignorance with ignorance. much love!

You underestimate the depths of human depravity. ​@@DorknessInc.

@@monkeyboimehoimenoi8395 i truely dont i jsut want us to be better. i want our community to show that its better because it is. much love!

Between Cael and Fabius they can do anything in cannon now. Why they chose this tour will never stop amazing me

good morning. This is a lot. Let me work it on and see what we have. Okay, architect of a setting. Dan is the writer I know off hand. He is one of the people who literally writes what happens in this setting. Arguing that he is not an architect of a setting is a silly argument; it's his job. You don’t like him, I take it? Or rather, it seems like you feel like his structuring of this IP is not in line with what YOU would like, so he must be wrong. If the writers of the setting have the idea for the setting in mind, and the only thing stopping them is a model line(we don’t have a model for it, so don’t use it), then that exactly means they are a legitimate thing. That’s exactly what that means. The emperor is a perpetual who takes different forms. He is no more “human” than a space marine; he is human-like. With that in mind, gender pronouns probably don’t “need” to apply. The hobby absolutely excluded people before, your nuts or rather I suspect it was never YOU that was bothered. No body YOU know wanted to play but felt left out. Everything in the hobbie worked out for YOU so you assumed that meant it was fine as is, and it should only belong to you. I am getting a strong sense of that kina selfish entitlement when your trying to argue me that the people who write the fiction aren’t the creators of said fiction. I spent a lot of this video and a lot of these comments talking about how GW has handled this badly. And you know there is a lot of room for interpretation with there statements, at the time when they posted its for everyone I absolutely felt it was antagonistic but really if you take YOUR emotion out of it and read it in its entirety as they wrote it there is an argument that it really was just saying that people who are hateful and bigoted won't be missed, and having witnessed exactly the kind of person that referred to in a hobby shop first hand, you know what they WERNT missed. Was it the best way to handle any of that, god no? The primarchs are the best example of the lore not being “set” or “it was a long time ago.” it doesn't change that it happened or that it’s a way that the lore moves and changes; you can invalidate an argument because u want to “timed out” the validity of it. The age of Sigmar came, and people set armies ablaze; that wasn't a political agenda(we mostly agree), and people still lost their shit, and it was a massive change to established lore. And look now, everything is still trotting along, and the extremists are hopefully gone, but I think really they just came back. Ok, let's get into the weeds of us; a group of people on the internet decided why a business does what it does and an artist working for a business does what they do. So again, you, like most people here with such an extreme version of this conversation, have avoided the thing I have been bringing up. Why can't the women of our community tell stories about female space marines? Why does the idea of it existing bother you SO much? You can scream how that’s not the point, and it's woke this and marxsis that, but no one seems to want to discuss why we can't let the females of our community who have wanted this for longer than this “woke movement” can't have it. Because we as a community told them, “You get these, we made them with u in mind, there lesser in every way to our favorite, especially in support, but we don’t think we should have to share,” and that’s a horse shit argument. The woke movement is an extremist movement, and I hate them like I hate the movement that is anti-woke and just as extremists. If the reason there pushing is an agenda but it is STILL THE WAY OUR PEOPLE FEEL then its still the way our people feel. And god help the people in this community that agree because thouse of you that jump on the anti-woke train are JUST as aggressive, just as short sided and as mean as the “woke communists” you claim to fight. Don’t be an extreme. Ok, no, I don’t accept this anymore; we are argued that men were better when we pushed a narrative that the “best” ALL the marines, then the “super marines” custodians are even better, and all of them are men, and everyone loses their mind when someone challenges it. WE TOLD THEM MEN WHERE BETTER WITH OUR ACTIONS AND OUR SELFISHNESS. Just because the woke fucks make an argument doesn't make the argument wrong. It makes the intent wrong. To date, this and maybe 1 other comment, I have called extremists; even people I disagree with, I don’t live like that, but that is how you all operate, it's us or them, black or white. There is a middle ground, Telling people you cant be a part of the best race(and let's not pretend here the entire GW world revolves around the marine factions and it always has, only recently has it even started to shift away) in a hobby that is and should be for everyone IS EXTREMIST when the arguments for why they cant are “men are stronger, the best of the best, genetically men tend to be more psychically fit” lets cut the bull, you don’t want a woman to be marines cause you to think men are better a and more suited to be marines. And that’s not a fair or even way to operate, and even thou the setting is awful (in terms of dark and depressing) that does not grant you, em or any one a license to tell people they cant play, or that they are wrong. And I direct you abck to the writers of the lore, they wanted more options to tell stories. It's not that it doesn't make sense in the setting it's that you don’t want it. And weirdly enough, THAT argument is perfectly acceptable. That argument is at least honest, and while I don’t agree, at least it's not hidden under layers of biases that pretending to be noble defenders. WE CANT BEAT WOKE WITH HATE. Let me say it again because it doesn't seem to stick. Hate cant overcome hate. Woke is a hateful movement disguised as an inclusive ideal. What you purposed here is in the say vain its just written smarter. The look at what they did to my favorite thing doesn't justify ignoring the issues that are raised. I know my biases, I take that into account when I put things into public spaces, as we all should. To explin my referencing in the GOW game, I am referencing the fear-mongering and the push that the group Sweet Baby Inc, pushed into that game and the story that came out about them pushing and fearmongering the production company to change a character after it had been developed and planed because they wanted her to be black as representation. They didn't and didn’t care about it being sincere they wanted to use fear to become a powerhouse in that industry, and they used that same fear to push a change onto that character. Much love

​@@DorknessInc. Dan Abnett is an extraordinary writer. I loved the first several Gaunt’s Ghosts books to bits when I was in secondary school, and later the Eisonhorn trilogy. I am somewhat frustrated with him in recent times, but no I do not hate him. When you said Dan Abnett is ‘the’ architect of the setting, that makes it sound like you are claiming Dan Abnett is the overall creative director of the setting, which is not the case. Obviously the Black Library authors who write the novels are involved in further developing the lore. That does not mean they have license to do absolutely anything they want. They are going to be bound to a certain extent by the ‘rules’ of the setting, by what pre-existing details are available, and (as far as I’m aware) the editors and figures in GW who are responsible for the lore’s creative direction. So I say again, Aaron Dembski-Bowden just thinking to himself “It would be cool if we had female Custodes” does not automatically mean they have always existed in the lore. There is no selfish entitlement here. I do not regard the hobby as ‘belonging’ to me and not others. Why would it bother me if a gay person or a woman (or someone of whatever background) wants to get into 40K? Many do. No doubt there are bound to be specific cases where someone was put off the hobby due to a negative experience they had interacting with people involved in it. That could happen to anyone, regardless of what their identity is. Yet it’s quite a jump to go from that to saying “this hobby / this fandom as a whole is exclusionary of people of X/Y/Z identity”. What you said goes both ways - just because someone somewhere felt left out, doesn’t mean that is the experience of everyone like them. As for lore changes, this is a slippery area. Over the span of 40K’s existence as a fictional setting, the trend has been for details to get fleshed out, for things that used to be blurry to sharpen in focus. Primarchs were a relatively early inclusion, and have become an increasingly popular element of the setting. Just because some details of the lore can change (and have changed), it does not mean (for example) that absolutely anything can be retconned to anything else, however often. If that were to be the case, people would lose interest in the setting, because what would be the point of getting invested in something if it can so easily be transformed into something else? So while parts of the lore can indeed change, it ought to involve a certain level of caution - caution that GW has not necessarily always exercised, which is then more likely to lead to outcry from fans. But that matter is not really relevant anyway, because we are not talking about a lore change done for aesthetic or story reasons, or in line with selling new models. Regards your question - why can’t the women in our community tell stories about female Space Marines? For the same reason that the men of our community cannot tell stories about male Sisters of Battle. The lore, for all its potential to get adjusted or include retcons, needs to remain a largely coherent and consistent body, or people lose their investment in the fictional setting. And in the lore as written, Space Marines are male, while Sisters of Battle are female. You misconstrue the reasons. In terms of their popularity and identifiability, Space Marines are ‘superior’ to all other Imperial factions, male and female. Nobody is holding out the Sisters of Battle or Sisters of Silence and saying to female fans “Here - they’re crap, but you’re female so you get this, you have to use this”. There is no lack of ‘sharing’ involved either; no one is denying female players the chance to collect, paint and play Space Marines. And not everyone is going to think that they are the ‘best’ faction anyway. Different people will have their own favourites. (Lore-wise, I used to find Space Marines boring as hell; I wasn't interested). Now, if a group of friends get together and decide to do some kind of 40K RPG or tabletop campaign (or collaborative fiction, or whatever) and informally agree among themselves that female Space Marines are involved, then that is their business. But if they were to try and take that notion and introduce it to a larger 40K community or group, it is going to meet resistance because inevitably there will be people who do not want to go along with something that breaks the lore in such a fundamental way. I will issue some questions in return, though I'm not waiting on an answer: Why would women need to tell stories about female Space Marines specifically? Why is the female representation already in the setting (which, as I said in the previous comment, has scope for some incredible diversity and depth) not good enough? In the first place, why would a person feel they HAVE to play a faction or tell stories about them just because they share some of the same immutable characteristics with that faction? Because you seem to be operating on the assumption that female players are second-class fans who cannot fully engage with the hobby unless Space Marines have women - and that makes no sense. However, I doubt we are ever going to reach any agreement on this matter, because ultimately it comes down to different opinions about the importance of boundaries. Boundaries between categories are not inherently evil or bigoted. They do not need to be broken down just because they are there in the first place. I doubt we are going to agree on the ‘best’ issue either. There is a difference between saying that men are typically stronger / physically more suited for warfare than women, and saying that men are ‘better’ than women in some overall sense. Commenters here have been stating the former, but you seem to believe that is the same thing as the latter. We also won’t agree that the ideas of the woke are fine, and that the intent is the only problem… The two are inextricably linked. There you go again with the ‘extreme’ epithet. This is the same method that woke ideology uses to get its way - paint all opposition as extreme and unreasonable. You say you dislike their attitude, and yet at the same time you champion exactly what they want, and in the same way they do. We aren’t going to agree on where that middle ground is either. People who do not want what the woke want are not extremist because of that. People who want to oppose the ideas (not just reproach the intent) are not automatically hateful or extremist. As the above demonstrates, this is not a case of “Look what they did to my favourite thing” and ignoring the issues raised. It is apparent we fundamentally disagree on those issues.

YES this is more of what i think our community is actually like. we don't have to agree and sometimes I wont like what is in the lore and sometimes you wont and as long as we hold GW accountable for what they poorly we can all support each other. and I believe that the story tellers will be what makes the "soup" good or bad. much love!

Thank you for taking the time to make a comment so allow me to offer you this as an opinion for the sisters of battle and the sisters of silence. If you’re familiar with the American Boy Scouts, this is very similar. The sisters a battle are the equivalent of the Girl Scouts in the American culture for Boy Scouts on the surface it looks like they’re equal same thing right even in the name. But if you look at it a little bit bit closer, which I wouldn’t have known, if if it hadn’t come up in my own life, what you will find is that only Boy Scouts get opportunities to go and visit Presidents and there are plethora of opportunities afforded to Boy Scouts exclusively, both due to the age of the organization and the cultural zeitgeist. I love the sisters battle. They’re awesome battle nuns. It’s a very cool idea and I 100% agree the reason that games workshops core reason to do this is embedded in politics and the fact that they are public trading company and they should be held accountable for that What I’m saying is that we as fans should be avoiding extremism and finding ways to help people who want to feel included this way Sister of silence it’s a neat idea, but I’ve never seen anyone who felt like magic void women were as interesting or as cool as super magic top of the top custodians. Again, I would point out even if the reason that they did this was super insincere. It doesn’t mean that the outcome Hass to be bad or that this particular group of arguments Hass to be extremist, even though their reasoning is so deeply flawed it doesn’t mean that we have to run around screaming at the top of our lungs about how everything is Unacceptable because women shouldn’t be allowed to be superhuman monsters too. Hold them accountable without being an extremist and don’t let the idea that girls might want to be cool super mutant monster interfere with your idea of the game. Much love

Much more reasonable then what they did. There are so many examples of better ways to handle this situation.

@@DorknessInc. Yes, way more reasonable.

Greetings, thanks for the comment So let's apply this logic but in the other direction, Marines are made from children through surgeries, hormonal therapy, the creation of new organs/glands, and the lots of indoctrination to the imperial truth. Humans treated with hormonal therapy have increases in the hormone in question. The results would be incredibly similar because all the "male changes" that occur with increased Testosterone occur during the puberty stage of development, and considering the therapy occurs before that, the human body would change as if it had the Testosterone from the beginning. The body changes based on the hormones in play. It is also worth noting that a study shows that doing activities that give a sense of "power" will increase the body's natural production of Testosterone*. It is also worth noting that both Testosterone and Estrogen are present in every human being (assuming no defect or abnormality is present). The system is focused on one or the other; the system reacts to which hormone is present. "men" have more Testosterone because male organs make more in general, and the reverse is true for Estrogen. Still, again, both are present in everybody. That's how we have men and women who have high levels of either (women with high Testosterone and men with high Estrogen). So if your argument is based on "biology of the human condition," then we have to look at all of the biology, not just the part that supports your belief. The "Woke" movement took real problems faced by real people and used them as an opportunity to make money and hoard power. Don't let the evils of a group make you blind to the people who struggle with issues that are being manipulated. Fuck Sweet Baby Inc and these predators are using real problems to make money and bully people. Also, fuck the Anti-Woke grouping. They are just as bad and doing precisely the same thing for exactly the same reason: money and power. Some real people have real problems, and their issues are being weaponized by the "Anit-Woke," making them all look like bigots. Please stay in the middle and don't let the agendas make us lose sight of the people being affected on both sides. Much love *According to a study done by Proc Natl Acad SCI U S A in 2015, Testosterone can be increased in both men and women as simply as behaving with "power." They found that women wielding power in stereotypical behavior AND "masculine" behaviors saw a significant increase in Testosterone. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4653185/#r45

@@DorknessInc. You are entirely correct! Factually correct. Nice to see people with knowledge instead of just ideology. But that is why I essentially said that male and female focused "marine making" would result in rather different ends. It's about the primary hormonal driver in a system, not the fact that all human beings do have both primaries in their systems. We already know that males flooded with artificial estrogen and females flooded with artificial testosterone will generally end up with shorter lifespans and serious health issues. So in order for the process to be remotely viable it would need to leverage the natural state of a male or female hormonal system, instead of supplanting it with its opposite. Again resulting in rather different ends. Sadly it seems facts and science are considered inconveniences by many these days. And yes, I know we're dealing with a fictional setting suffused with enough crazy to be considered essentially magic in many cases, but it at least purports to be based on science and the like (leaving psychers and the warp etc. out of the discussion for now)... Internal consistency is an absolute must for successful franchises / settings / etc.

i agree, shoehorning in was the WORST of the many ways GW could have done this, the females i know that love this setting all agreed give us new, exciting characters, move the setting forward intro duce ways for the new stuff to have females, or make the desperation of humanity overcome the need for it to be men. GW has insulted its fan base and should be held to task for it. but i dont think the way to do that is with hate, bigotry and extremists nonsense. Much love

I hope that the community of hobbyists finds a way for you to return one day; until then, you will be missed. p.s. GW prices are ludicrous buy a printer and play OPR for SURE

Thank you for taking the time to make a comment. I agree with this, everyone should have a space and men tend to get ignored in this aspect. But do you feel like both the super solider mutant space marines and the super solider elite custodian and the super shoulder elite space demon soldiers all need to be only men. The amount of money that’s put into space Marines dwarfs every other army in this game and that also happens to be one of the armies that has zero tolerance for females maybe we need somthing a little more is all I am purposing. There aren’t a lot of “men only” full factions, and there’s an argument there. Let me pose this thou, most of the characters we see(I am not researching this it’s anecdotal) are men, or masculine. So while we may lose a male only race, we still have a dominantly male character and model influence there’s still predominantly men or masculine in most of this setting. Most of these characters are still men, even if they spent the next few years making predominantly, female or feminine characters, we would still have a mostly male and masculine space, do we have the majority of characters? The majority of the models, scopes and stores be masculine and still have a masculine only army or three? Sister, I would count as an army that is more or less only women keeping in mind that they used to have a few male options as far as their characters and leadership went. I don’t know what the current generation of sisters uses. What calling sisters of silence anything other than a unit that custody players use because their stuff is expensive it’s kind of an overstatement. also make the argument that having a human race that is or race the human based that is “homogeneous” is kinda the norm, why we wouldn’t have it is weird this isn’t a sub faction that is for a micro niched audience. This is literally the poster, children and the better version of the people. I guess this needs to be brought up if we’re gonna have this conversation why is the super soldier best of the best thing that only had one sex wasn’t the magical poster boys with the very best of the very best that are supposed to represent the Apex of humans society or at least Apex human evolution and the ones that only have one gender. this hobby is predominantly older men. It doesn’t mean that it’s only it’s true that the audience of this game hasn’t changed in a long time. We haven’t exactly given a reason to. And if there is a push for stories that end up being bad or don’t have good characters then don’t buy them if they end up producing things that have subpar quality don’t buy them if they make models that have tits and you don’t want tits in your army don’t buy those models whether or not we have female custodians or not is not gonna change army or I would model it whether or not we have female space will not change how I would run or model my army. If I want my army to have tits they will have tits. Hold GW to task and don’t let them forget they did this with out sincerity and they did this for all the for the wrong reasons but don’t gate/badger the idea that some people might feel included. Much love

@@DorknessInc. Im not terribly invested in the gender of these characters just saddened by the lack of humanity that has appeared on both side with not real discussion just saying the other side hates them (or at least that's what the majority of content i see focuses on while using some statements to support their position but it feels secondary). Unfortunately that seems to sell the best and may just be an inherent trait of humans because it works so well at persuading people to your side and creating a unified group rather than scattered individuals. As for whether you should diversify the faction there are many logical arguments in and out of universe for and against and you'll never get the right answer, its like making 1 shirt to fit everyone its too big for some and to small for others. You could argue this shirt was made to fit group X but it then gets tailored to fit group Y a bit more, this tends to make a shirt that fits neither well and as with here a poor tailor does a rough job so it fits evens worse. You don't have to make one thing fit for everyone you need a range of luxury brands that everyone will say wow at. Id say more effort in stuff like sisters of battle or silence and less on the ultra smurfs is the way to go and this has been a major complaint at GW for years abandoning many factions in favour of another space marine codex. They design the posters so can't blame people for their poor marketing. As for apex humans, who is better the white scars or the imperial fist? How about better with flame tactics sisters or Salamanders? They can be the best but in different ways it just requires smart writing and a gentle hand because no matter what you do it's a fine line between a strong character and a Mary/Gary sue. Please bear in mind this is just my thoughts and I'm not 100% on any stance but thought id comment as its one of the few more neutral stances I've seen.

@@FragMaster93 i am so happy to see this response. more then anything want to promote people refusing the extremists stances. feel how u feel, be passionate, but please be better then these extremists ass-hat's. i appreciate you!

Edited to fix grammers. Greetings, first, I agree that not everything needs to be for everyone, but I don't agree that a hobby should exclude anyone. especially if they just want to see something they can relate to. now, the handling of this has been awful, and GW should never be allowed to live this down, BUT there are issues here that are being swept up as we keep labeling this a Woke or Anti-Woke thing. members of our community feel like this, and even though evil people are yelling at it, that doesn't mean we should be ignoring OUR people because they feel left out. I agree the handling and the timing make this awful. but the difference here is that the people who hate the 2d aren't in our forms scream how people who love the 3d need to GTFO. the difference is that this is just a game. Its a community of the hobbyist. the difference is that women representation in this game has always been , here is a consolation prize. here is a weaker faction that we(GW) are going to ignore. Their problem is that they want everything; they want the same thing we want: to be the super cool, ultra-powerful super soldier. and people are telling them no because the lore doesn't support it when the lore changes all the time. when the authors are saying "we want to make female custody but due to a lawsuit we can't yet cause there are no models and GW lost a lawsuit to some guy in Texas (chapter house and i am paraphrasing) women were told that they are lesser and should accept lesser, and frankly, as a hobby, we should have fixed this a long time ago. female space marines don't pollute anything, and as long as the writers are able to make it work, there is no reason to think this dilutes the water. women shouldn't have to accept a lower position in our hobbies because we said so. It's a hobby, and it should be for anyone. and being inclusive doesn't have to mean bad. It's just how people have been abusing it and using the gap to take advantage of the situation. See Sweet baby inc., inclusive wasn't the problem predatory villains who took advantage of a situation are the problem. you want to beat woke, you cant do the same thing they are but in reverse. much love sorry about the spelling Grammer mess its the end of my work day and my familys waiting.

@@DorknessInc. I didn't actually think id get a response, as for the grammar I understand that. I agree that the timing and handling have led to more division then necessary on the topic...that said I disagree with changing the lore all the time simply to fit whatever, that precedent however can be dangerous. If anything can be, then why establish anything at all? It can be incredibly damaging. Please note that im not speaking about Warhammer alone, but as a general statement. I feel like it is pertinent to bring up the societal question because the polarity of this topic seems to be exaggerated due to the state of society. While I understand that is a community, in all communities there are extremes on both sides and most often it seems that only one side catches flak. If you wanna play sisters of battle as a guy or all male space marines as a female doesn't matter at all and I dont believe that it ostracized anyone. For instance I dont get mad at Harry Potter for simply not using non magical weapons to fight, I accept that is the world created. The reaction that games workshop had probably radicalized more people to one side or another and I think that some now are unwilling to compromise on the back of that, which I believe is fair.

@@patrickschweitzer4978 Yes this is what i want to promote, we are a community of people who don't have to agree and we can still be respectful and supportive. i think that GW has changed there stuff so much and there world is so silly at this point that I don thing it really makes any difference, I truly think that they should have just made NEW lore and built stuff up moving forward. that would have been the easiest. much love

So it’s worth noting that yes you have a point and things changing because of forces like DEI and Woke push’s aren’t good. But this post ignores that there were people who did want these changes, people in our community that weren’t heard. And in my experience the vast majority of people don’t mind this change and don’t care about adding inclusion. Even if the way this came about wasent good that dosent mean that the outcome can’t be. And for the record the hobby space is forever changing and was always designed to be inclusive as a hobby. Being upset is fine, hold gw to task for being shady, what I am saying is don’t be an extremism, don’t believe the influx of people screaming that everything is awful. And don’t loose sight of warhammer has always been a fluctuating changing world and lore. This is no different Don’t let urself fall into an extreame, don’t let urself be “our way or no way” hold evil accountable without loosing sight of the people who’s complaints there useing for evil. Much love

always buying our stuff, and keeping businesses open :)

cope, hope, doesn't matter, i wont be on the extremists of an issue while there is still reason and sensibility. i wont outcast some one because there complaint was used by an evil group of self-righteous bigots and yelled loud as "lack of representation" any more then i will support the same style bigots screaming about Wokehammer. there is a middle ground. much love

Yep

i wont be on the extremists of an issue while there is still reason and sensibility. i wont outcast some one because there complaint was used by an evil group of self-righteous bigots and yelled loud as "lack of representation" any more then i will support the same style bigots screaming about Wokehammer. there is a middle ground. much love

Yes, I think extreme opinions are toxic; I believe that this product has to evolve, and mostly, I think that GW could have handled this in any number of ways that would have been definitely better. much love thanks for the support