How Do You Solve A Problem Like THE IMPERIUM? Taking 40k Lore back from the far-right 

This would also be an excellent way to introduce one of my favorite aspects of Rogue Trader back into modern 40k: Non-Chaos Renegade marines. Have them be isolated marines who got trapped defending various planets, and whose pyschic conditioning degraded as the Imperium didn't heed their prayers for aid, becoming more like the humans they defend and acting as local sheriffs, perhaps still loving the Emperor, but finding the modern Imperium to be an abomination that abandoned them and their people, and thus going Renegade without supergluing spikes and severed knobs all over their armor.

The Hammer and Bolter episode “In the Garden of Ghosts” does a wonderful job of portraying the Imperium as it seems through the eyes of another faction. They didn’t even hedge their bets by making the Space Marines Flesh Tearers or Black Templars or some other “disreputable” chapter. No, they went right for the jugular and made them the shining Ultramarines; bastions of courage and honour.

What annoys me is the Tau were a good chance to make not good guys, But a coalition of alien races working together and having other factions unable to just destroy them despite there age as a civ and size. But then james workshop pressed the grimderp button

Hang on a minute... The path Ian suggests, of a greater emphasis on splintered human societies cut off from the Imperium that develop their own societies and way of doing things (and possibly even their own distinct genetic evolutions which leads them to becoming, over the millennia, their own distinct sub-species) rings a bell for me... 40k HAD that. But they got Squatted. Time to bring back the Wee Grumpy Bastards!

I sorta like the idea that the Imperium is kinda the only option, but only because by its own volition it destroyed every other possible option, seems to be what they’re building up at the moment

Follow-up: how cool would it be that the 2 missing primarchs never did anything wrong nor heretical, only they peeked beyond the veil: there can be a viable human society outside the Imperium and that's why they were executed/held in the Black Cells

I found out that plenty of people were hoping the Imperium Nihilus would be this "free for all" realm that you're describing in the video, and it is an untapped source of interesting stories and factions. It would allow people to turn their Imperial armies into independent factions without need for a different army to be made by GW. Kind of like how in Warhammer Fantasy, the Border Princes were a way for people to make their own little factions out of existing kits and armies. Still, an actual Rebel faction could also be an interesting introduction. I truly believe that the Squats might be a very good contender for that. In fact, the fluff from Rogue Trader and second edition kind of directed them into that archetype and would be a very nice way reintroducing them into the setting.

"I'm the good guy" said Eisenhorn whilst psychic suicide bombing a Café Nero in a very heroic fashion, whilst keeping a pet demon in his pantry.

This actually echoes an idea I had for a faction based around some 30K models but in 40K: What's the Imperium's greatest nightmare? A functioning human civilization, who'd backslid technologically as the Imperium had, but whose society was directly derived from the pre-age-of-strife human federation - and that was just a bit too big, or in a spot that was too strategically awkward, for the Imperium to squash. I had them on the trailing edge of the halo stars, and they were acting as a bulwark against a Slaugth empire that the inquisition has decided the Imperium is not (yet) ready to tangle with, especially given current events.

I think a good first step would be to add a faction where the leader was some sort of travelling merchant with a retinue of security to ensure that the goods don't get taken. We could name the hypothetical 10th edition after this faction, a Warhammer 40,000 Rogue trader if you will.

I've often wondered if the reason the Squats were so easily removed from 40k wasn't because they were too similar to the Imperial Guard as a faction, but because they were one of the few races that weren't demonstrably "bad." They just wanted to be left alone so they could dig holes and play with their train sets. 🤣

I thought the overarching view of the emperor had was that once he had conquered the galaxy, he would usher in a time of peace and prosperity. With the going narrative that the imperium now is a twisted warped version of what it was meant to be. Therefore the imperium now not really being a necessary evil but rather a failed version of what could have been - with guilliman confirming as much with his disgust at the current state of the imperium, while also comparing it to the blissful peace of the worlds of ultramar.

We kind of already have this, with the Votann and the T'au. The other options don't HAVE to be human, as long as it's close enough. I really think the main issue is that everything is written from an Imperial perspective. Even if what you suggest here happened, it wouldn't do much good unless we actually got some stories where those other factions are the protagonists.

The annoying thing is that some of the other factions, notably the T'au, get the opposite treatment to the imperium: highlighting the bad they do while ignoring the comparatively strong justifications.

Isn't some of the irony that the Imperium isn't a necessary evil? Humanity during the golden age and even dark ages didn't need to be so repressive. The imperium tells us it's necessary because it served their interests and silences anyone who says otherwise just like a true big bad government would.

I love the idea of offshoot human societies existing outside the Imperium and bringing some focus to them. You can even attach some Marines to these societies because I think it should be possible for a chapter to go 'renegade' without joining Chaos.

I have always felt that the "Imperial" Knights fit this mold aswell, if you look closely at their lore the Questoris Familia aren't truly Imperial citizens. They are actually (extremely) long term mercenaries bound by oaths and on the Questoris Mechanicus side by blood connections more so than law and if the Imperium or Mechanicus failed to uphold their end of the bargan these oaths would be broken and they wouldn't have a reason to fight for them; not to mention they are technically the last remaining remnants of pre imperial humanity and have the ancestral memories/spirits to prove it due to the mechanisms behind Knight bonding.

Current Necromunda lore mentions hive leadership meeting with Eldar and Squat ambassadors. There's Ork mercenaries. It's clear that there's plenty of "heretical" behavior happening within the Imperium of man. It's just not mentioned enough in the codexes and a large portion of the Black Library material. Bring back cross faction allies, so that we see things like Guardsman bolstered by Ork troops etc.

I’d just love to see RG proclaiming the Imperial Truth, the Ecclesiarchy being none too pleased about it and the Indomitus Crusade being declared the Indomitus Heresy

At first, I was like, "What are you saying about my favourite setting?" **Angry noise** But then I listened to your ideas, and there is definitely a core of truth and possibilities in it. My suggestion would be to stop focusing 99% of all attention and promotion material on the Spacemarines. And spread it out evenly among all the races. Comparing the life of an eldar civilian (which we have limited info on) with an oppressed human or human among the Tau. More stories about the lives and troubles of "regular" people (human, mutant, and xeno) in the 40k might be a way to also poke holes in the "Imperium is good". Like you said alternative and variable viewpoints are needed.

“We must be the good guys, we eat corpse bars”. Also the Mitchell/Webb skull uniforms thing applies. This may also be a problem fed by the disproportionate weight in the model range given to imperial stuff. And the army equals species equals race thing, whilst by no means unique to this fantasy setting, does rather limit possibilities. Cf. Late era Pratchett, with its inter-species couples and profess towards an industrialism underpinned by the value of labour, not capital. Anyway, more tales of elder/Ork throuples farming as retirement projects. Heck, there’d be a fun story to be told of how the Tannith got on as peacetime settlers at the end of the Sabbat crusade, something beyond the usual ptsd everywhere. I can’t imagine the imperium’s version of the va is great at augmetic upkeep, for example. Also,worth noting - the commissars’ origins and habit of shooting anyone who turns around are Stalinist. Plus the Red Army’s doctrine of piling men at objectives regardless of losses, equipment or alternatives is reflected in quite a lot of the black library Imp guard stuff I’ve read. Autocrats in fascist drag with a theocratic underpinning might be more accurate.

I always liked the idea that each codex served as propaganda from their point of view. Like if you read a Space Marine codex, then the Emperor is this noble hero of the past and we should aspire to be worthy of him. But then if you read a Chaos Marine codex, the Emperor is a corpse and a false idol who never really cared for humanity, but the Chaos Gods are promising you the galaxy and immortality. It makes it so you essentially get a bunch of factions going "they're all bad but I'm good", rather than acting like, as you say, the Imperium are a necessary evil from every point of view. It doesn't help they've been cleaning up the art style and writing for years to be less openly ridiculous and satirical. It kind of lost that sense of humor in the pursuit of having a heroic face to a setting that was never intended to have one.

Reminds me of a quote I read from a director a few years ago to the effect of "It's impossible to make an anti-war film focusing on the soldiers. When the audience sees people trying to do something hard they will eventually start rooting for them" which is the opposite effect that he was aiming for. Since Imperium humans are the POV characters for most of the fiction it's hard to make compelling fiction without encouraging the audience/reader/player to identify with the characters and indirectly their goals.

Hmm, I always thought the point of the 40k universe was that there _are_ no good guys. Giving a more positive and hopeful alternative to the Imperium basically contradicts the basic elements of the story.

Okay, so your proposition is make 40k more like Rogue Trader again, right? I'm on it. I think this video, more than any other, shows how much you are knowledgeable and how much you cara about the setting, congratulations, man! With that said, I've always been puzzled at the fact that we don't see a lot of non Imperium, non Chaos, non Mutant rebel factions in the game. It would be really cool if we had a sort of "Rebel Alliance" Faction, you don't even need to make a whole complete line of models for it, just make them use a lot of Imperium vehicles and weapons, almost like the Genestealer Cults. Also, I would love to see some Gue'vesa models (is it spelled right?). Heck I would even go one step ahead and make the Tau try to sort of reverse engineer geneseed and make their own, obviously inferior, Gu'vesa space marines (I don't know, maybe they just start collecting geneseed from dead marines, which would make the Imperium completely mad about them).

Bro, really chose the First Order as an example of "coded fascist" instead of the Galactic Empire.

I think part of the problem is GW has taken the setting more and more seriously. Rogue Trader was an obvious grab bag of popular sci-fi ideas and very clearly didn't take itself serious. The Imperium was obviously satire. I understand as 40K became more its own unique thing that faded and needed to a bit but I feel the whole thing takes itself way too seriously (except maybe orks). Plus lots people get exposed to the setting by games which usually focus on the battlefield and fighting and don't give any indication what those factions you are playing are really like.

Something that's come to mind whilst watching this is a mod for hearts of Iron called the New order. For context, hearts of iron is a WW2 grand strategy game focused on controling a nation-state from 1936 onwards, and much like warhammer it has a issue of attracting a signifigant number of far-right (and authoritarian left) people. The new order is an overhaul mod set in the 60's, in a world where the various axis forces won WW2, and the German Reich is now the most powerful and prestigeious faction on the planet. However, much like the imperium, it is a hollow, rotting, dying state that brings untold misery to millions of people and is fundermentally unable to hold it's self together, eventually collapsing into a civil war after the death of Adolf hitler. The new order is a deeply interesting world to me, because whilst the world it presents is one consumed by fascism and totalitarianism, the creators of it utterly disavow the ideologies presented within this world, and much of the writing is focused on both showing both the awfulness and misery of fascism, and also showing how alternative forces still exist and struggle, and are fighting to present an alternative to Nazism. Obviously the two settings are not a 1-to-1 comparison, but I think there's a lot of potential ideas that could be mined from TNOs premise and would map incredibly well to the setting of 40k. A key example of this to me is the presence of Albert Speer within the setting, who acts as something of a 'moderate' nazi with the aim to pass reforms to the Reich - but only to allow it to continue to exist and to quell the disent and corruption within it. Ultimately he still wants to perpetuate this awful, horrific system, and I think there's a potential for some really interesting parallels with Guilliman here. How many of Guilliman's reforms are done in the name of what is right and trying to sincirely make the imperium a better place, and how many are done out of nessessity and begrudingly for it's survival? I think this is a great oppertunity to interject some grey into his charecterisation and something that should ultimately come down to personal interpritation, and being a great demostration of reform vs revolution when compared to some of the independant break away states.

Having "multiple human Imperiums" in alliance would be a good way to reintroduce other loyalist Primarchs. E.g. Russ or the Lion as leaders of their own portions of the galaxy.

The Imperium will always be the goat 🐐 of all factions. You can introduce a new human faction and then have them be destroyed by the imperial.

From the Baneblade/Shadowsword books, I really quite like what happened with the planetary governor's viewpoint at the start of one of them. Receiving an Imperial delegation requiring more soldiers/resources, and the governor gives them a powerful speech about how they're totally bled dry and suffering and just can't keep doing it. The Imperial ambassador just refuses to listen, and that starts the route to war. Granted they did then fall to Chaos and blah, blah, blah, but I felt that viewpoint had worked really well to show how oppressive the Imperium is.

There's a quote floating around about this, don't know who it's by but: "The Imperium does not survive because it is horrible, it survives despite the fact that it is horrible." It is incredibly easy for GW to bring in a human faction that isn't hell bent on exterminating anything that isn't them. You could take your own custom knight houses, build militias using necromunda kits. Lasguns could be salvaged from dead IG or family heirlooms.

A 10th edition like you described here might actually get me back into the setting. These days I'm more into Battletech just because its significantly less fash while remaining gritty and dark.

To be honest I've never seen the imperium as Fascist, more like Space Feudalism. I see it as a fallen Empire that is desperately trying to hold on to its territories and this allows corrupt and despotic rulers to carry on unchallenged so long as quotas are met. in spite of this there are still genuinely heroic characters, and how these said characters deal with the realities of the setting are what make it interesting.

I really like the idea you present of the Great Rift getting worse and splitting off more of the Imperium's former territory. You don't reference it directly, but it's similar to the Age of Strife following the birth of Slaanesh, which adds to the credibility of it as a plot point. I've also been keen generally to see more done narratively with the Imperium Nihilus, since that's currently underexplored.

While I agree with the desire to reduce the Wehrmachtboos from the fandom, and can see the obvious focus of removing the "Imperium is a necessary evil" angle from the lore, I think that would ultimately do more harm than good. I'll speak to a second reason - that your storyline would just set up the Imperium as a martyr "see what happens these people will abandon you in your darkest hour" narrative - at the end of this TEDtalk, but to start with, I think part of the parody/cynicism at 40k's heart is that both sides are right - the Imperium is a self-justifying fascist state that is clearly manipulating citizens into believing it's their only hope, and yet that doesn't change the fact that the Imperium is actually right about that, regardless. The universe is portrayed in 40k as logistically being simply too large for things like democracy, free will, and such to interfere with the need for vast armies and vast supplies for said armies to be amassed, so that the Imperium doesn't care how individual worlds operate as long as the expendable life keeps flowing. Even in the perfect ideal outcome of the Great Crusade, the physical size of the galaxy precludes any meaningful level of efficient and consistent administrating of the Imperium. So the Imperium will always need to be fascist and oppressive in the sense that, ultimately, it will always have to choose to let local regimes do whatever they want as long as it doesn't stop the troops and ammo and food from being delivered - and if their evils are seen as actually helping that happen, so much the better. And in the context of 40k, the cynical reality is that there really is something worse than the mortal fascism of High Lords and Inquisitors, and that's the immortal fascism of Chaos and the genocidal tendencies of most alien races. In other words, I think your argument is largely sound, but maybe a bit too dependent on reading the existence of Imperium propaganda and self-justification as proof that the message itself is a lie. Part of the deeply cynical satire of 40k is that such things are also often the truth. Yes, the authorities clearly do not have your best interest in heart and yes you're just a worthless cog in a great machine, but guess what, that's actually the galactic truth no matter what. The universe is simply too big, too lethal, too violent for anyone to matter, not even the transhuman ones. The real problem, IMO, is what you alluded to early on - the willingness to make Marines a poster boy "good" faction to make the game fit into the standard Saturday morning cartoon narratives of GIJoe, He-Man, Transformers, etc. The "new" Black Templars were an imperfect first step, but I think effectively retconning the Marines back to what they originally were - little more than traumatized child soldiers operating as deputized war criminals - would go a long way to 'fixing' the appeal of seeing them and the greater Imperium as the 'good' guys. But this would somewhat involve rolling back a lot of the themes that GW likes to lean into - eg the Blood Angels as Renaissance-esque artisans, the Space Wolves as noble Viking savages, etc., which unfortunately I don't see GW ever being willing to really do. Also, I think it's important to point something else that you didn't touch on. Part of the appeal of fascism (and classism and racism and sexism and most forms of bigotry) is that the bigot assumes they're part of the side that benefits. They never accept that they could still be one of the have-nots or on the 'wrong' side of their hate. Here in the United States, for example, most European Americans (eg Southern, Eastern, Irish - essentially Catholics and Orthodox Christians in general) weren't considered to be "White" until less than a hundred years ago, when post Civil War racism needed to reinforce the racism towards and segregation of Black Americans by firmly bringing otherwise second-class European Americans onto the side of what we now call WASPs - White Anglo-Saxon Protestants. The irony being most modern US racists themselves wouldn't have been considered "white" by the historical bigots that they idolize, even relatively 'modern' ones like HP Lovecraft and the Klan. So they embrace their racism under the belief that they would have, will, and always will benefit from it as a 'white' person. Back to 40k, the point being - I think if the larger narrative focused more on showing just how crushing the Imperium is to the average citizen, and how *you* (dear gamer) would almost certainly be one of those being crushed, rather than the Baneblade commander or Imperial Fist captain or Vindicaire Assassin or Sister of Battle initiate doing the crushing - I think that narrative shift would also help greatly. Because I think the other flaw in trying to Balkanize the Imperium to show it isn't the only option is that it'd only add another layer of martyr complex to the Imperiumboos. In other words, the people you're targeting to get out of the hobby or change their mindset wouldn't see this as proof the Imperium as wrong, but as proof that the Imperium was right - that most humans are traitors and backstabbers who can't be trusted to be loyal to you as shown by all these new human empires and societies abandoning the Imperium in its darkest hour. They would cling to their Imperial armies and make mental notes of the people - of the kinds and types of people - flocking to all these new more progressive or liberal human armies. Which makes me think this would ultimately only make the issue worse, not better. YMMV, of course.

Reflecting on this, I feel this is so uneeded. Imagine the people who actually look at the state of the Imperium and say "that sounds great, I want to be a part of that." The Imperium is broken. It's always been broken. But! There is plenty of genuinely human and heartfelt moments throughout setting. I root for the humans because they can still show humanity in such grim dark settings. In fact with the exception of the Dark Angels I don't recall any protagonist characters that excelled because they are better 'facists' then others. The subtle destinction that most people don't want to accept is that the Imperium is a tool made of armies, industry and the Emperor's light. Unchecked human 'Ignorance', 'hate', and 'fear' gave space for a facist humanity. That quality of humanity has been the number 1 roadblock to the Imperium's victory. The setting screams that fact.

I can see Imperium Nihilus splintering and having Dante have to deal with sheperding the new factions into a rough alliance to maintain a grip on the other side of the rift, that makes sense. I don't think they would really manage that well though if left to their own devices, maybe prior to 40k, in the time between the current setting and the Horus Heresy it could have worked but nowadays there's just too many threats. I think another promising choice is to have Guillimain continue his work of reforming the Imperium while also having the Imperium begin to soften some of it's positions simply out of dire need. Specifically with regard to xenos. There is basically an alliance between Guilliman and the Ynnari but not too much has come of it lately, showcasing this a bit more and having the relationship formalized such that the Imperium and those Eldar aligned with the the Ynnari reach some diplomatic agreements to not screw each other over and cooperate goes a long way towards moving past xenophobia and endless war. As does an agreement with the farsight enclaves. You'd still have the main Tau Empire and most of the Eldar as potential enemies but some permanent alliances would start to form out of necessity. The discovery of a world or collection of worlds occupied by a surviving remnant of the dark age of technology human civilization has also been posed by some where you see humanity as it used to be.

I'm not sure one needs to "change" 40k just because of an admitted tiny minority. Why skew it around a few nutters? Just turf them out any club they show up in. The most I'd say is yes, some stories from the Black Library on these areas would be nice. (Since none of what you said is 'new') But I wouldn't go shifting an entire edition around them. On the Marines though, I always saw the Marines the way Abnett writes them, that they are the vestiges of an era when they were genuine protectors of humanity and not the misled forces to devastate any deviation and that there still exists the potential in them for it. The way he has their true humanity and care sometimes squeak through, that they are curious about humans as much as humans are about them, and that they do follow Roboute (who comes from a more enlightened, less facist era) show they are more of a mishandled tool, not in and of themselves a horrific evil. And that makes their story of the fall from 30k to 40k all the more tragic in my eyes, helping cast them as the posterboys. The ones who COULD, but after so long have been mantraed and bound until they AREN'T...except for the times they do. And those times are the core, genuine heroism of 40K's lore. The flashes of hope and possibility in the darkness of the original vision to free humanity from Chaos and suffering. The vision that opposed the very thing humanity turned into. Gaunt's Ghosts is also a fantastic study on this, casting a commissar was such a genius move. That it shows people moving under the height of the cult above them, they have to fit in or facec consequences from it (sometimes tragically so, poor Soric) but ultimately are still people just trying to do the right thing for one another. 40k is best shown as flashes and possibility of something better, rather than outright just having a "good side". It's less about "everyone's evil" more "everyone has a tragedy that they fell into misery and hate/fear/whatever from". Thats the real wrinkle that needs to be protected in theme.

As has been said ever since Warhammer+ went live GW have done themselves a disservice by putting all the animation behind a paywall. One of my favourite episodes so far of Hammer and Bolter has been "In the Garden of Ghosts". It really turns up the Imperial bastardry to 11 in that show and was fantastic for it.

C'mon Codex: Renegades and Heretics, 10th Edition!

40k beyond 1st ed isnt satire, Rick Priestly himself said so in an AMA. From 2nd onwards its been a historical metaphor set in space with the marines as the last vestiges of the Roman empire in a now medival one. Besides a big part of the setting is that it is less comforting and uplifiting then other settings, the fact that the setting makes one consider that the Imperium's facism as necessary is a good thing as its exposing the player/reader to an uncomfortable idea that they now have to grapple with and come to their own conclusion. The solution you have suggested just sounds like a sanitisation of the way stories are told in the setting and removes that discomfort. Instead I would suggest a more melancholy depiction of Imperial history through the rationalist eyes of the marines, lamenting that they failed to prevent the Imperium to fall to such depths. One should remember the Marines are the fulcrum about which the setting turns. Overall 40k is a sci fi horror setting it should make you feel uncomfortable

Fashies don't get irony, unless it has a pepe profile picture

It’s very much in dialogue with the themes of power and control in the Dune series, which also has a complex interplay between “necessary evils” and the brutal limitations of feudal imperialism as a system which the people in the setting can never seem to shake.

I appreciate this video and the sentiment behind it, I really agree with almost everything. However I think that the true horror and grim dark of 40k comes from the idea that the imperium (the defacto horrible facist system) is legitimately the only option to surviving in the galaxy. With other human options that are completely morally better than the imperium and alliances rather than the overbearing imperium, it kind of robs the setting of what makes it unique in sci-fi to me. It’d also radically change the balance of the established lore, these other human factions would realistically have to be at least as strong as the 500 worlds of macragge to have any hope of surviving against any concentrated effort by a tyranid fleet or necron invasion, or even eventual absorption into the tau empire. Your points about the imperium being portrayed as heroic is spot on I believe. Much more work should be done to paint the brutality of the imperium, ideally from the xenos pov, and I also want space marines to be less human again, closer to their original non noble selves. Good video, just the one idea I don’t agree with, would make the setting too generic when it already has problems with stolen ideas haha.

This is something I always wanted to see. Hell, it's practically stated outright in some of the books (as mentioned in the vid). This is what caught me about chapters like the space wolves - they are more often than not butting heads with the imperium and how it works and stick to their own sectors. (at least, pre the destruction of fenris) This is what I wanted more of - humans coexisting with xenos through tentative alliances; humans aware of the dangers of the warp and working against it in responsible ways. Hell, these are shown to be common place for some more radical commissars, why not have it be right there under the imperium's nose. Doesn't even have to be pleasant - a feudal world has a trade deal with the dark aeldari, exchanging thousands of slaves in exchange for designer drugs and incubus bodyguards. The potential. The potential!!

Watching this and knowing the Squats are coming back is probably a good sign that there may be new human factions that will be separate from the Imperium. It's a good start I say, and we may get new alien factions too.

I would add that totalitarian regimes in general encompass the Imperium NOT just Facism. We have seen plenty of purges and atrocities all round in history outside of that repugnant doctrine. I'm not sure 'noble warrior monks' (crusaders) is a massive improvement in terms of atrocities haha. Luckily the majority of people can take the game for what it is...a game. Maybe it brings into question - what are kids being taught in their history lessons?!!A dose of Animal Farm and 1984 needed I feel... I think expanding the human factions has good potential. Ta!

When I was writing the back story for my chapter, I had them explicitly sent in to crush a nascent human republic. Their great crime? Giving equal rights to mutants. They had no problem with chaos. Then the Imperium steam rolls them, and NOW they have a problem. I agree wholeheartedly with you. I think the main thing the setting lacks is contrast; the Imperium is all there is, so no one in setting can really point out the flaws.

Is everyone aware that no matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, there will be people who hate and are hateful and say things you may not like. Instead of trying to make a "safe space" you just ignore them, and except the game and stories as they are. Because that how they are meant to be! Toughen up buttercups!

The thought that came to me while listening to your thought experiment, was that you were essentially calling for a return to Rouge Trader. And it seem, looking over the comments, many think that as well. It would be splendid if 40k retraced back to its roots of Rouge Trader to move forward as a game.

You just earned yourself a subscriber, my good man! I've toyed around with the idea of a small, independent human faction of my own for quite some time now. I imagine a fringe world that was cut off from the Imperium by a warp storm during the Horus Heresy, forcing the inhabitants to develop a more pragmatic approach in order to survive. Not only did they loosen restrictions on scientific and technological research, resulting in building their own tech and even making some small scale innovations, but their views also became more tolerant. They have slowly but surely started coming into contact with the outside galaxy again as the storm gradually subsides, resulting in alliances of necessity with mercenaries, Rogue Traders and even some xenos. For example, they have an uneasy alliance with a contingent of Blood Axes, the agreement being that the Ork raiders help deal with a persistent feral Ork infestation (the result of a large WAAAGH! rampaging through the sector during the Great Crusade) while leaving the 'humies alone. In exchange the Blood Axes get to keep all battlefield spoils and are given Ogryn volunteers, who it turns out integrate into Ork society very well. Knowing that it's only a matter of time before an inevitable confrontation with the Imperium, the people are weighing their options. Reintegration with the Imperium is out of the question at this point, as it's seen as a fate worse than death. Will they go out in a blaze of glory like so many other rebellious worlds, or will they manage to relocate to another planet or become shipfaring nomads traveling the stars of a hostile galaxy?

Interesting concept. Last time I was into Games Workshop stuff was in the mid/late 2000's, where WH40K was in its 3rd edition with most of the basic fluff written from the Imperium's viewpoint of itself as a necessary evil but most players I encountered viewed the Eldar as the closest thing the setting had to "good guys". For me it seems like the Eldar are meant to be written as metaphors for real-life Celtic peoples - notice the Craftworlds being named after Druidic festivals like Beltane (Biel-Tann) and Samhain (Saim-Hann) - as far as WH40K maps to real life politics. I don't know what this says about more than my own anecdotal experiences?

Idea for a faction: A "democratic" faction that also has conscription. The twist is that the party in power might try and stifle voters by sending them into unwinnable battles.

The imperium is not evil, no more than a starving wolf that kills a man to eat, or a spider that bites a child trying to squash it. The entirety of the imperium is the last gasp of humanity as it crumbles into dust, like the fall of Eldar empire allowed the imperium to grow so too does the imperium fall inexorably. There are people who act out of pure greed and selfishness, trying to secure their own little kingdom hoping the system is too broken to notice, and there are others who spend every day of their lives fighting and attempting to fix or just maintain the small livelihood held by them and the people around them

Brian stableford wrote a book from the point of view of chaos cultists. It was excellent probably the best one I've read, it tackle the issue of the empire being evil really well. Your sympathy wasn't with the chaos cultists, it was with the poor villagers caught in the middle.

I wouldn't make this a "new" thing, which can be construed as a development post-plot advancement. I'd propose this as a new faction for a new edition, but that it would be emphasised that these guys have always been there - it's just that, as minor worlds and/or pirates and raiders, they haven't been referenced until now. If you have worlds that have never been part of the Imperium, where there is at least some co-operation between humans and Xenos*, and that haven't turned to Chaos, then the Imperium has never been necessary, and it returns to being a joke that "certain people" didn't get. If they are a direct result of the plot advancing, then you can argue that they were necessary prior to that point, but not after it. To emphasise this, I'd build the aesthetics off of Logan's World, and have it be an "update and expansion" on the pirate/mercenary army list in the Book of the Astronomicon. Alternatively, clarify that the suffering the Imperium causes is directly feeding and strengthening Chaos (making it a positive feedback loop), that the Astronomicon did indeed attract the Tyrannids, and that the reason all Xenos life seems hostile, is because they've slaughtered all of the reasonable ones. *and, no, not in a peace-love-and-harmony way. I'm talking more the Host of Mordor, less the Fellowship of the Ring.

Something that I've always wanted 40k to do and that your proposal supports is taking a hard look and deconstructing the impact of real world colonization and decolonization and how disparate cultures evolve and integrate (many times inharmonious) when they come into contact with each other (and what is gained and lost for those who live in it). How do these isolated cultures with radically different traditions take bits and portions of the mainline imperium and use them in their own belief. What are the radically different belief systems, traditions, and symbols of the imperial cult that can manifest? And above all I just want to see all of real world humanity on display in both representation and aesthetics, not just the common European depictions that have been baked into fantasy and scifi over the past century. One of the big things I've learned from indie RPG designers and storytellers is to make space for your audience. To allow areas (and significant chunks too) of blank narrative space that someone can take an idea that they think is awesome and run with it. 40k should be about Your Dudes and the setting should encourage that. (Also this is why I'm in favor of FSMs and misters of battle, even if they're just in fringe cases, cause they allow narrative space and interesting concepts for people to run with)

Still of the opinion that Imperium Secundus should be the change that Guiliman will enact to cut out the chaff and beaurecracy of the Imperium Proper. Shit will still be horrible because of shortages and the like, but it will be focused on a goal and with a plan for a somewhat essential peace with the Eldar and Tau.

Problem with your suggestion is the Emperor basically killed off all of the alternatives that could of worked simply because he was so arrogant he wanted his way to be the only way. In one of the Horus Heresy books he kind of hints to this as one of the reason he created the dark angels legion during a conversation with Lion El'Johnson. So yes...The Emperor was a REAL asshole in the setting, but also one that was akin to a highlander style 'Immortal' that never dies.

I saw u irl the other day Ian at secret cinema but as a staff member I couldn't break the immersion to shake your hand and say thanks for the content! So I'll say it here! Love it all and I'm pretty indifferent about 40k lol keep it going and much love xx

I had a conceptual issue with Dark Heresy recently: it's hard to shock CHARACTERS with the brutality and fascism of the Imperium even while it might shock the PLAYERS. There's no dichotomy for them to roleplay here, because their characters (being effectively fascist secret police officers) would commit atrocities without a second thought. Great video!

They could also focus on humans who willingly join other factions. Could have a reasonable chaos vassal empire outside the eye of terror, or release a Gu'Vesa lead Tau Auxileria codex, or release models to show off canonical human mercenaries who work for the Dark Eldar, a genestealer patriarch who doesn't call the hive fleet and builds a new home for his Brood (Arguably already Hivecult), etc Showing that humans have more alternatives to the Imperium shows the horrible grimdarkness that the Imperium is wholly needless and exists only due to its own weight.

This is a good summation and solution to the crypto-fascist nature of a non-satirical grime dark. I think that moving the focus away from the big "heroes" would be a helpful idea too. Focusing on lesser characters can up the tension. If Guilliman is in the story, we know he isn't in any danger; if the focus of the story is some Inquisitor, Governor, Squad Leader, Autarch etc; there can be real narrative jeopardy.

This is why I wish they'd stop ignoring things like the Nova Terra Interegium. It's got so much potential.

Eh I think that the imperium being the only faction for man yet being so flawed is the only thing that makes it not the worst or close to the worst, then it would become craftworld elder, tau as just being good and the imperium just being a fleeting evil kinda ruins the grimdarkness

40k would lose its major USP. In other settings it always pays off (or at least doesn't hinder you from reaching your goals) to be 'the good guys'. Savining innocent children, helping those in need, avoiding bigger collateral damage is totally fine, even when facing an overwhelming enemy - somehow you always get the upper hand. I can see the positive message behind this, but it narrows the scenario. 40k offers a different type of dilemmas: If you have a mission to save billions and delay it to rescue thousands it may cost you those billions you were trying to save. When psykers apeared those planets who treated them good suffered the most - and this is a real possibility. Being kind and friendly doesnt grant you a good outcome. Or take a look at the Tyranides. In other settings you won't see situations in which you can either nuke your own planet (and its inhabitants) or see them be devoured by the enemy strenghen it even more. I like this setting as it is a really f***ed up scenario. And it makes good deeds even more significant. If the protagonists in Star Wars decide to help innocents despite their important mission absolutely nobody cares, because eveyone knows that everything will be fine in the end. In 40k this it not the case. And because of this you dont expect the "protagonists" to behave this way. There is a short story of Pedro Kantor, in which he helped innocents instead of giving them "the emperor's mercy" and it was a real surprise - not only to his men but also to a lot of the readers. Because being heroic and noble while facing overwhelming enemies isnt normal behaviour, it is a big risk.

I think I'm a bit old, but I always retained the very old sense that the Imperium is very diverse with random planets being cyberpunk democracies, monarchies, and son and the Imperium sort of doesn't care if they pay the tithe etc. So it was less monolithic and more of a mess. But Space Marines were a very thin line of all the things the Imperium did back then, which was far more 2000AD .

You mentioned Judge Dredd and I think they experienced a similar issue, and they resolved it largely with the comic Origins, SPOILER, in the finale of this series they recover the original Judge, and he expresses total regret at making the fascist dystopia of Mega City One, it's really something that rattles the core of the story. I know 40k doesn't have quite the pacing opportunities of a comic book, but they'd only need to establish this core regret once, and it would tremble through the universe.

I mean, this sounds perfect to be honest.... It sounds so plausible that even as of the moment we could say, to some extend, it is happening already. I mean, in the way to justify actually having good Space marines... It sounds completely convincing and easy to deliver.... damn... nice work!

When thinking about the imperium and the question of its depiction as the given “protagonist” faction - can entire civilization or society in fiction be understood not as allegory but something along the lines of the classically tragic hero writ large, an entity that’s fun or compelling to follow in a narrative but would obviously be catastrophic to encounter in real life?

I think a huge issue with the 'satire' bit is that even if we pretend that 40k is portrayed negatively, it still stands as the dark age following the golden age of 30k Imperium, which is a dictatorship which still has some fascistic tendencies in lore. 30k Imperium is basically the idealistic version of a fascist intergalactic empire

“None of us stands outside humanities black collective shadow” -Carl Jung You don’t get it either. I don’t get it. No one does. I’m ganna go snort some warp dust now. Death to the false emperor

Imho, they could also just play up the feudal aspects of the Imperium. Generally they could deal far more with indivudual worlds and organisations doing their own thing, and even fiting in petty equivalent to feuds amongst each other. Any sort of partaking in the larger affairs and coordination between components only gets done when the instititutions of holy terra come knocking themselves, and even then they could have far more limited authority per imperial law. Think more Dune or the Empire in WHFB (or rather the holy roman empire...), where the individual bodies making up the Imperium act like completely independent nations 90% of the time and Space Marine chapters more or less doing whatever they want. All of that is already there, it just needs to be played up more.

The only flaw I could reasonably bring up is the fact the impact of NOT having access to the Astronomican was not addressed.

Couldn't agree more. To me, Guilliman is the biggest problem. Picture an Imperium with the High Lords at its head, anonymous beaucrats and noblemen of which we know nothing, and that's the point, the horror is that the Imperium runs on intertia. The cogs all turn, the broken pieces are replaced not by an engineer but by other pieces. We are doing this to ourselves. The fact that we never knew the name of the HL was genius to me. Life is hell, but who's to blame? Now there is someone to blame. Roboute Guilliman. He is indisputably in charge and he has mostly cast aside the HL and replaced them. He has much control. Yet, life is still hell. Why the heck do people not rebel against Guilliman now? Genestealer cults, sure, but... Come on, not all rebels must be secret Tzeentch worshippers or Tyranid cosplayers. Sure, yes, there's faith and other social glue in place, but come on, if there ever was a place for new human factions or a straight on civil war in the Imperium it was now!

I think this is a great solution and I've always thought it was implied that there already was this sort of thing going in the setting. Perhaps I was wrong though and creating this juxtaposition more obvious would be a great thing for the imperium. For example, in my head cannon the Alpha legion run an alternative interstellar colony in the eastern fringe as a kind of alternate moral and social organisation.

I like the idea of dwelling more on the independent human empires, which as you say have always been present in the background, but there is a reason we tend to see them getting conquered or obliterated when they appear on camera - the nature of an Imperium is imperialism, a core tenet of how empires operate is by subjugating and oppressing their neighbours. Demonstrating to the real world audience that there is another way also means demonstrating that to the Imperial citizenry, which is something the Imperium as an entity cannot tolerate. You might be miserable here, says the Imperium, but look how much worse you'd have it over there (because we spent years bombing it flat). The facists and idiots who buy in to the Imperium as a necessary evil or even a force for good like to ignore the morality and even the colossal waste of effort and resources spent holding and dominating non-hostile populations, which could have been funnelled into infrastructure, public works, or even just pointing those same weapons at the acid spitting psychic bugs instead of innocent civilians. But of course, aside from the acid spitting psychic bugs, none of that is actually fiction.

I'd say a solution would be make chaos less unilaterally, cartoonishly evil.

I really like this! I'm a fan of every faction's fluff being presented as propaganda for their side - making it willfully inconsistent. People (especially kids!) can still have their heroic marines fighting mindless bugs or spikey dudes, while any folks who care to look a little deeper can have that subverted. Tau are a step in that direction - a more subtle kind of fascism, at least - and an option that says that it's possible for species to work together peacefully. That Blackstone Fortress game too. The galaxy is a big place, so it should feel diverse.

Writing more stories where the imperium actually loses and very clearly loses due to its self destructive ideology would be good. Even if this is just in the sub text it would be better than what we often get now. There are way too many stories where the imperium is barely even perceivable as the horrific society that it is. Rather it just appears as an essentially good faction with a few rough patches. I’m currently reading “Day of Ascension” and that book is kind of refreshing in that it describes the imperium as basically fascistic in the plain text - even if it’s largely written from the perspective of genestealers. It still describes the horrific conditions the workers of imperial worlds have to endure and shows why rebellion is so easy for gene stealers to sow

This idea is excellent. As a bonus, it makes Gorilla Man look bad, like he doesnt have the vision fix everything. Maybe he could even turn into a tyrant and become a right bastard, cementing the"necessary evil" as an excuse.

I’ve been thinking about this. If the Chaos feeds on the bad thoughts or intentions of humans, then good governance is really the best weapon against chaos. Right? If people are thriving, free, healthy and … well… happy; that takes a lot of power away from Chaos and strong allied planets are more powerful against aliens.

I have an idea I think could work beautifully. I have a pet theory about the missing Primarchs: that instead of producing great conquerors like the other primarchs, the missing two were incredibly charismatic philosopher/religious-type leaders who, catastrophically from the Emperor's point of view, were pacifists. They managed to unite their worlds in absolute non-violence and peaceful coexistence, and with huge success socially and technologically, and when contacted by the Emperor immediately their philosophy spread throughout the Imperial ranks like wildfire, causing the front of Great Crusade to immediately collapse as the troops refused to invade any further worlds and began to believe all xenos should be treated with respect as fellow intelligent beings etc. The reason the two are now "missing" is that they, their legions that bore this dangerous geneseed and any record of any contact with them following this had to be completely expunged for obvious reasons. To contrast what what these missing primarchs achieved through peace with the brutality of the Imperium even at it height would prove a point I think - and you wouldn't have to retcon anything, or even go forward with 40k.

It's very good to see the many Warhammer RU-vidrs that break the stigma we have as fans. Adeptus Ridiculous, Poorhammer, Mr bones, numbskullz, dawnstir, you all work to undo the damage scum like arch have made.

I came into 40k when I was in college, my most favored memories was playing DoW in my dorm room. Yeah of course the Imperium is an evil fascist hellhole. But man do I get annoyed at some Imperium fans (and I'm one of them!) But I think the community has, for the most part, has done a pretty good job at keeping the fash out. While I don't have any issues with portraying the Imperium as the 'protagonist' faction, just have them be the antagonist one. I think a pretty easy way to do it is just portray the Guard, the Marines, everyone, as tyrants. An "alien invasion" but the Imperium are the evil aliens, you know? The Carcharadon novels actually is a great insight into "evil, loyal, Astartes." I recommend them to my buddies. Thanks for the video, Ian. It's an important topic that the community has to face one way or another. E: Oh, and I'm reminded at the cancelled Space Marine sequel (not the one we're getting, the one before that) where Titus was going to serve Deathwatch and severe himself from the Imperium and found his own chapter. That would be pretty neat - an Astartes that serves Mankind, not the Imperium.

I like the idea of Semi-grimdark because farsight enclave are basically backed into a corner and there only say to survive is to defend there territory and relay on temporary alliances, and the grimdark part is that they are like the red-shirts from Star Trek.

5:10 This has been a complaint of mine for a while, the imperiums fascist fear of the other is validated by the existence of chaos.

I'd say one starts this with the reintroduction of the Squats, followed by a massive expansion to the Renegades and Heretics. I'd like rules to field human pirates, like Corsairs or Freebootas. While we're at it, release that Mercenaries codex GW has been teasing for almost 20 years.

There’s no problem vouching for Humanity. But incapability to see humanities survival WITHOUT the Imperium? Is just sad and beta… Focus on humanity in the Tau Empire a bit. Quietly Reminding us the Imperium is Sattrical and ultimately inefficient.

I think they're doing a good job of working past this by bringing back the Primarchs and juxtaposing then against the current state of the imperium.

40k lore is exceptional exactly because it's nuanced and doesn't hold your hand. Not everyone has 'get it' - we've all seen what happens to IPs and industries that try to virtue signal to modern hypersensitivities. The success of our society - today, in RL - comes at an unfathomable cost, yet (some of us) still thing we're the good guys. Even 'progressive' politics calls for book burnings and witch hunts. Where is there a better reflection of that than in 40k lore? I'm proud of British Sci-fi for bringing up entire generations with a nuanced world view - dumbing it down so 'the good guys win' would be an act of barbarism.

You described the exact problem I have with current 40k’s setting. The imperium is portrayed as the good guys and the universe it exists in isn’t as dark and chaotic as it was portrayed in 1st edition.

The suspension of disbelief is your ability to put aside what you believe to be possible, or true, or your own set of ideas about how the universe works, and exchange them to something else for the sake of fiction. Immersion takes this to an even greater degree, where you can actually feel like the world itself is real, and you are a part of it. The point is, the world you insert yourself into functions differently than the world you know and exist in currently, in every way, including physically as well as morally. A lot of people like to immerse themselves into 40k, and feel like they're a part of the universe. Enough said.

I think this is why I find the Krieg books so hard to read. What the Imperium has done to them is monstrous, they’ve had everything that makes them human removed (to the extent that they don’t get a POV character). But it’s also framed as “the only way” to survive, justifying the action.

I intensely love these frontier regions, but there would be a good balance to be careful with, because something would be lost if what you propose is done too much. The despair maybe. The artistic charm is not only that the Imperium is bad, it's also that it is nearly inescapable. Free souls and pirates live in uncharted territories but many bigger factions able to negate the imperium on the long run would lessen the oppressive, suffocating threat of Terra.

I always try to emphasize the fact that there are no good guys in 40k when talking to people getting into the setting. If people ask me who I would consider the good guys to be, I usually say the Tyranids because, frankly, all the other factions getting wiped out would be a benefit to the universe and the Tyranids at least aren’t doing what they’re doing for petty or hateful reasons. They just eat stuff. It’s what they do.

Ok… This is heresy. I’m calling the inquisition.

I do really like this idea, I'd love to try homebrew some faction or force with this in mind in the future.

I think it doesn't even need to be super hard, just give us options for Imperial Guard renegades or non imperial imperial guards and make them be able Ally with any other faction, no new models need to even be made