Was Catherine Howard Groomed or Abused? Exploring the Evidence 

Maybe she wasn’t “raped” or “groomed” in the legal sense, but Katherine Howard was unquestionably exploited by men. She may have fawned over men who were attracted to her as a fight, flight, freeze, or fawn response. Unfortunately, there is a world full of bad behavior that doesn’t meet the criteria to be considered criminal. That doesn’t make it okay.

It's significant that she was essentially a forgotten youngest child with neither a mother or father in her life. Mentally and emotionally vulnerable. An obvious target and also very needy...trying to fill much emptiness and unhappiness. While lacking good advice.

I have trouble with this, I think that just because it wasn’t seen as grooming at the time doesn’t mean that she wasn’t groomed.

One day, one day Claire, your book on Catherine Howard will be completed. We will live in hope 😉📚📖

I definitely feel she was groomed. Anyone who was ever groomed THOUGHT the relationship was consensual, but we know thirteen and fourteen year olds don't even have all of their brain yet and are not emotionally mature enough to consent. Katherine would have been 13 or 14 when the grooming would have began. We now know this would have been traumatic. Victims tend to either shy away from sex after sexual trauma or they become hypersexual as seems to be the case with Katherine. Her feelings about the matter are irrelevant. She wasn't given the tools or the guidance to say no. Edit to add, furthermore, as an orphan living in a dormitory, we would now consider her an at risk teen. She was vulnerable.

Catherine was just a headstrong child who was used to having her way. I don’t think she ever imagined the grave danger she was putting herself in. Just thought she was having some fun. I never understood why Jane Boleyn would have helped Catherine in her dalliances. She certainly should have known what the consequences could be. Thanks for another thought provoking video.

If the women of the time were not always comfortable with their young daughters having relations with much older husbands and those adult husbands were more than willing to sleep with a 12 year old, I think we can rightfully say that MEN didn't find it unusual to have very very young brides. Women had no say, and if they did, I imagine they would have restricted their daughters from being poached so early. There's a reason why we have an age of consent these days. Because otherwise men would still be marrying children. My great grandmother was married off at 15 and no, she didn't consent to it, but she had no choice.

You’re exactly right. I had a 17-year-old BF when I was 15 and knew full well what I was doing. And, as you said, this was a truly different time.

A sensitive subject well handled. I agree that there is no evidence of grooming or abuse when you consider the primary sources and the totally different way relationships were viewed at the time. As someone said previously, the contrast of Elizabeth’s situation really highlights it. Really interesting video, thank you 😊

It’s so hard to not look at history through our modern lens.

It’s nice to get an account solely on the records. Thank You. I’ve noticed many comment off feeling without able to separate it from facts. Abused or not. Being emotionally inclined can be blinding.

I have read 'Young and Damned and Fair', and highly recommend it to anybody interested in the short life of Catherine. It broke down almost all of the misconceptions I had previously held about her. I now agree that she was not groomed. She was also not at all the foolish child I once thought her to be. I think she made a fatal mistake by trying to hide her previous relationships, but it wasn't because of past abuses. She was young, but how much her youth contributed to her decisions, I dont think we can judge. There were so many other factors. Henry's court was a dangerous place. I am fascinated by this lady, and the contrast between her downfall and that of Anne Boleyn before her. I look forward to your book, Claire! 😊

From the Tudor pov, girls married at 13 or 14 and was considered an adult. From our modern pov we consider her a victim of grooming and abuse because in our era, minors can't give consent. I do have great sympathy for her because she was caught between the political ambitions of Protestant faction of the court wanted her removed to put in a Queen more in line with their religious pov. Plus the Howards had a lot of enemies The Catholic faction played the same game with Anne of Cleves. I was a child of the '80's and remember in my high-school girls in their Freshman year (age 14 or 15) dating guys in their Senior year (age 17-18) Thank you Claire for your thoughts. I am eagerly awaiting your book on Catherine.

She was taught that her only way forward was to please men, do as she was told and be married off to the advantage of her male relatives, as almost all other women were and sometimes still are. I think where it went wrong for her was that the men around her took advantage of her needing to please- in most senses because it meant survival - and then blamed and punished her. If you do as I want you will have a place to live, food, clothing, attention- but by doing as I want it lowers your worth- there was no way for her to win.

I don’t fully agree, but I do appreciate the thought-provoking video. As some others have stated, I’m not comfortable saying definitive things about the character of relationships that are so ambiguous in history. As she was a young girl in a time when women lacked power generally, I tend to view relationships as having a high likelihood of being manipulative to women & with a harmful power imbalance. On the other hand, it’s certainly possible to take that view to an extreme and deny the clear agency some women did exercise. So, I’m left with-I’m not sure. I certainly don’t think she was old enough to be expected to exercise adult judgment, regardless of when she lived.

It’s an interesting topic and the comparison with Elizabeth’s situation does show a marked contrast.

I think Catherine was a young woman who learned early on that she could use her sexuality to get what she wants. During a time period where you were considered an old maid if you weren’t married by like 18, a relationship between a 13yr old and 19yr old isn’t atrocious. Yes, but today’s standards it’s gross, but that was pretty common back then for women to be married off by the time they were 13 or 14…. And to men much older than the dudes CH was messing around with before she met Henry VIII. What’s gross is that Catherine Howard was a teenager who married a man almost 50…that’s the relationship that people should be disgusted by.

Sadly, I do feel that she was abused in some way. It seemed also that her step grandmother was complicit because of how little effort she seemed to put into the safety of the girls in her care

I found this video very informative, as all of your videos are. You definitely make several very good points. And while I don’t really know that “abused” or “ groomed” would be the appropriate terms, I do think Catherine Howard was taken advantage of repeatedly. While a Tudor era 13 year old might have been counted as near adult, physically and psychologically, she was still an adolescent. And she was behaving like an adolescent girl, giddy with the attention given to her by older males. I think even her exhibitions of “control” are more indicative of her sense of position as a Howard than a sign of emotional maturity and equal standing in the relationships. Also, she just does not seem very well educated or even very intelligent. Certainly her answers about Derham, when questioned by Cranmer seem very child-like. Her change of story is very much like the fumbling and prevaricating of a child caught in a lie. And, compared with writings of other women of her age and social status at that time, her letter to Culpepper is glaringly immature and naive. She may not have been the victim of child sexual abuse, but she certainly doesn’t seem capable of being an equal partner in these relationships either.

I think she really was just an immature girl who thought things would turn out ok. Dereham sounds like an idiot making much of his relationship with her - he should have realised it could be dangerous for him!

She was abused.

Fiction has cemented the idea that Catherine Howard was victimized and sexually abused by the men in her life through the lens of our current standards. As an avid consumer of Tudor fiction, I certainly believed it. The historical accounts you presented place Catherine Howard in a gray area, if not entirely culpable. I was always under the impression that Manox was much older than her, not so close in age. By his character, it seems possible that Durham may have pressured her into the "romance", and then pushed it further into a sexual relationship and claiming her as his wife against her wishes. And attentions that may have at first seemed flattering, grew repugnant to the degree she could assert herself and end the relationship. While Catherine's attraction to Thomas Culpeper seems to be genuine, he certainly cared nothing for her welfare (or his own) by recklessly pursuing her when she was married to the king. As for Henry VIII, the historical accounts of his behavior towards his wives certainly indicts him as egotistical and cruel. But was he overly aggressive in his pursuit of Catherine Howard, not taking no for an answer? It seems possible that Catherine was equally flattered to have the attentions of the king and repulsed by his age and the condition of his body. Enjoyed the perks of being the queen, but unhappy with being the wife of a sickly, ailing man when she would have preferred someone closer to her age. What we have are reports of what was seen and heard, what was written in letters, and judged by the standards of the time. But we'll never have the knowledge or the nuance of what Catherine Howard experienced and how she felt about it.

I wish someone would do a video report on the executioners who ended the lives of the royals and nobles and how they were selected and if they were part of the royal guards or military.

I read Gareth Russell's 'Young and Damned and Fair' and found it really illuminating. Those were different times which is important to be aware of. I listened to a very interesting talk by David Starkey who called Catherine Howard 'the good time girl' who loved fun, dresses and romance, I believe that is how I will always see her. Thank you Anne for being brave enough to discuss this difficult subject with us. I hope you finish the book about Catherine as I would love to read it.

Catherine Howard's life seems prime for a film adaptation by Sofia Coppola. I'd love to see it!

Thanks Claire. The situation was sad. It’s like after she married Henry she was supposed to understand how the court worked with no one to guide her. Cromwell would have stepped in that role.

I don't think you can apply 21st-century courtship and marriage ideas to the 16th century. It was an entirely different era.

I also look forward to reading your book, and I also thoroughly enjoyed Gareth Russell's book. Meticulous indeed! I also liked the way he presented the known facts and allowed Catherine's personality to shine through on its own, without his nudging the reader one way or the other. I finished reading with a feeling of great sadness for the lives of all involved, Catherine, the men, Jane Boleyn - but I also felt quite impatient with Catherine who seemed to go for whatever she wanted, without first thinking of the consequences. To have met Culpepper in secret was just insane; she had to have known the likely result!

So. Tragic. Great commentary, Claire. Thank you.

I feel bad for the hate comments you're bound to get. Still, the fundamental reason this fight even exists is because (much like the Victorians) society today is compelled to enforce its standards on the past, and doesn't think its decedents won't do it to them. Was Catherine Howard too young to be having young men in her bed? Not by the LAW of her day. Does that make her shenanigans okay? Well, by my own morals, no! But when I was 14 I couldn't walk down my high school corridors without seeing people going all the way to third base between class. Icky? Yes. But people got handsy anywhere they could and did a lot more after the last bell of the day! Teens have sex, and they've been having sex with older people since the beginning of time! Personally, I think people outraged about what happened 500 years ago should be more concerned about what kids do now!

Another example of people looking at history with a modern lens thinking they’d be different if they were born early in time. If you were born in 1500, you would have seen Catherine Howard as a woman, not a child. You’d not have batted an eye at her marriage to Henry 8th. It was only a shame Catherine had to marry a man in poor health, not necessarily a shame that she had to marry a nearly 50 year old.

She was abused by the step grandmother. Who probably lost a lot of money when Catherine was married off to Henry

I agree with your assessment.

Considering Dereham's later behaviour, I get the impression he had a forceful personality. He clearly had a hard time taking no for an answer once she was at court, & the way he claimed to "own" her just feels icky to me. He at the very least abused his prior connection with her to get money/status from her. I've always thought that he was able to convince her to do things in a way that felt romantic to her at the time, but in hindsight made her feel uncomfortable or used. I think it can both be true that this was a fully consensual relationship and that she eventually felt uneasy about the whole thing.

There are cultures in the world today where relationships and marriages of similar ages to Catherine Howard are considered acceptable to that culture. Are those child brides somehow not being abused because their culture allows it? Domestic violence was also acceptable in Tudor times. Do you not consider its victims abused because society allowed it? They may not have had the terms in Catherine’s times to describe the sort of abuse she suffered but she was definitely abused.

Thank you for this video. I have always been under the impression that Mannox and Dereham were much older than Catherine. She will always remain a tragic figure in my mind. I know my own faults and impulsiveness as a teen, the wish to be liked by others, bad decisions. I can't imagine the pressure of being a queen put on top of that. Not just any queen either, but the 5th queen of King Henry VIII!💜

I understand it was a different time, but it doesn't sound like the Dowager Duchess did her any favors. Why didn't she dismiss Mannix (sp?) when she discovered them kissing instead of just striking Catherine? Why didn't she keep a closer eye on her behavior after this discovery? It doesn't sound like she was very involved with her wards; but maybe that was how it was back then.

Yet again another great talk ❤xxx

Thank you for using my comment! This was very informative and gave some nuance to this Catherine Howard’s life.

I agree with you that by the standards of her time she was not, but I find it hard not to feel the relationships were not quite as consensual as you’re presenting. Teachers & tudors do hold a position of authority, so a young girl being romantically involved with them is inherently problematic. Young women of that age are easily manipulated and the difference in maturity between a 13 and a 19 year old is larger than a mere six year gap later in life. I agree her time’s standards would be accepting of the men’s behavior… but revisiting the legacy of Catherine Howard with a sympathetic view towards a very young girl is appropriate.

Great video, Claire!! Having read Gareth Russell's book on Catherine, your video is a perfect summary. Thanks for this! I completely agree with you in all aspects!! 🧡👍

Hi Claire nice to see your channel again. I bought your coloring book ,so much fun 😊

By modern standards and in modern terms she WAS both groomed and abused, but those were very different times.What is undeniable was that she was shamefully neglected and things would probably have been much different had she been more carefully raised.

She was a precocious teenage girl. Having sex at age 12 or 13 was not uncommon back then. You’re not the only historian that points this out. It’s so sad that it was so easy to condemned a woman for premarital sex. I do feel bad for her though. Thank you Claire.

I think we are missing the big picture. Did she deserve to die? No. It’s like she was under the Taliban.

Keep up the good work Claire

This is brilliant, thank you.. straight down the line. She needed safety, protection and love. Which she really appeared not to get from an early age. Sad though poor girl Good stuff Claire.

I agree with you, Claire. With Henry, times were different. That was very common. I think Catherine was a bit of a foolish girl in her relationships, but that is timeless! She wasn't the first or the last. We believe all men (and women) should act honorably. And they should, but that world does not exist, yet & certainly didn't then. She was young & (from the sounds of it) hot blooded. Usually makes for poor decisions. Does not male it her fault, but doesn't make her completely helpless, either. Great job explaining from the sources.

We weren't there so we don't know

Something that seems missing in most of the assessments that I've read or seen about Catherine is that she may have had abandonment issues. It is easy to label her a headstrong spoiled child, as some in the comments here and elsewhere have, or to think that she was in control and manipulative, but many aspects of her behavior mirror the symptoms of someone who suffered from abandonment as a child. In a child's mind, her mother dying, even though not unusual in those times, could have been construed as being abandoned. Her father clearly abandoned her into a situation that might have been considered advantageous in some ways but wasn't likely an emotionally nurturing or loving way to grow up. Children with abandonment issues often feel insecure, unloved and unworthy of love. They also can be overly eager to please which, for a young girl like Catherine could make her more susceptible to manipulation by an older man or more likely to be the aggressor, to act out sexually, in an attempt to gain "love" and security. Adults and children with abandonment issues can also experience mood swings, jealousy, emotional outbursts, and have relationship issues. Catherine exhibited at least some of those symptoms as well. The times were different but human psyche was still complicated and a child could easily be permanently traumatized leading in this case to eventual disaster for Catherine because of her emotional immaturity and unfortunate marriage to a tyrant king. Not an expert on any of this just offering a slightly different opinion.

Very well argued, Claire. Before watching this l was convinced that Katherine Howard was groomed and abused, but now I'm not so sure. Thank you for giving us more information from contemporary sources.

I agree with you 💯 Claire! Good video!😂

I think Catherine was abused, even though she played at sex. She was too young. Just so young to be married off to Henry. As you say though, in those days it was normal. Poor France's Derham going through antagonizing death was unjust and unfair. His relationship was before she met the king.

Thank you for your impartiality.

Thank you Claire, great to hear from you. I agree with everything you said . Hope all the fur ones are well 🐈‍⬛🐕🙏👵🇦🇺

I feel like this was victim blaming. Maybe Katherine wasn't groomed or assaulted in the way we would think of it by today's standards. But I feel like she was taken advantage of & learned early on what she could get by using her body to gain attention. And everyone had seen what Henry had done to 4 wives they (the Howard family) weren't going to tell him no when he expressed interest in her. Even if Mannix was only 5yrs older he still was more educated in the world than Katherine. This poor girl didn't deserve the fate she got, none of Henry's wives did.

I appreciate your measured analysis of this controversy. I also agree that Gareth Russell's biography of Catherine is terrific.

I firmly disagree. Even if it wasn't seen as abuse at the time, her age inherently makes it so, and the way Katherine described these past relationships in her confessions does not sound consensual by any standard She was not naive, or manipulative, or anything else these comments are trying to frame her as. She was a child. I can’t say if she was groomed, because not all sexually abusive relationships are grooming, but she was abused

God Bless you Queen Katheryn, may you be at peace. X

Gareth Russell's book was rcommended somewhere else and I managed to get it through the library, it is indeed very good. Katherine's story leaves us all feeling extremely uncomfortable today especially in view of Henry's gruesome revenge for his wounded pride.

What a refreshing and balanced account. Thank you

I wonder why Catherine Howard couldn’t just stay on as a mistress instead of accepting becoming his full wife/queen if she knew she wasn’t ‘virtuous”?

I'm going to disagree here.. Grooming can absolutely involve gift giving and stuff, it can appear as an innocent romance..

I had thought Catherine was groomed until I read Gareth’s wonderful book. I didn’t realise Mannox was so young till then. I agree, I think Catherine was a young girl discovering her sexuality ..unfortunately she picked the worst of men. Dereham was volatile and jealous. I read in Gareth’s book about the fear of the Howards that Catherine’s history would be discovered and how they would try to mitigate any fallout…thinking Catherine would be sent to a nunnery. No one could have anticipated the extent of Henry’s rage and resentment and the tragedy that would unfold. Parliament took some time before approving the Act of Attainder because they were conflicted as to whether Catherine’s indiscretions constituted treason. The Indictment did not accuse Catherine of adultery but rather her taking Dereham into her service as proof she meant to return to her abominable ways. Young and Damned and Fair was a brilliant book. I look forward to reading yours Claire, when you finish it.

I agree, don't think she was groomed, sounds like normal, young adolescent behaviour. The boyfriends turned out to be nuisances but she pursued Culpepper Can't have been that great being marred to a much older man like Henry.

You seem to forget that children cannot consent to NSFW times.

Thank you for this. I am glad to see the men were closer to her age and I agree with you on this..,.

I would imagine that her life might have turned out very differently had her mother lived and she not been sent off to live in the rather sketchy situation in which she ended up.

I feel you presented this well. It's difficult to remove modern views from the topic.

The people she was truly used by were Francis Durham and Thomas Culpepper, who manipulated her in a sense almost blackmailed her. If she hadn’t married the king, these past indiscretions would’ve never come to bite her. She was a young passionate teenager who did things that are very normal.it’s a shame that women’s sexuality often be put against them.

From our era pov they are abusers, cus she was child. Childs can’t give consent. And I agree, I believe she was abuse. Also the power of a king can frighten a lot people, she could have felt that she need to marry Henry or she would die or something.

Hi, Claire, I very much agree with your perspective about Katherine Howard and the analysis of her romantic relationships. As a therapist, I often have to help my clients delineate the boundaries in relationships and although I have much compassion for Catherine, I do recognize that she did not always act in her best protective interest. Her intentions appear benign but actions are different than intentions. Like Henry’s other wives she married a very self centered man and that usually does not end well.

well researched and argued. It's easy to look backwards and see Katherine Howard as a victim, but she seems to have understood her status, and been able to stand up for herself when needed.

Thank you so much for such excellent food for thought! ❤ I don't think we should apply our contemporary values to the past, as we risk misinterpretation. Where does the romanticization of CH come from? Why have Henry's executed wives been turned into a myth? CH doesn't come across as smart, but maybe it's simply because she's the one who got found out (?)

Having just finished Gareth Russell's 'The Palace', I will certainly take up your recommendation. I often wondered if, when the prospect of a royal marriage was being discussed, Thomas Howard failed to consult with Agnes Tilney regarding Catherine's character. Had the relationship with Dereham been known to Norfolk - I believe he would have informed Henry. It could have been interpreted as a pre-contract. It seems to me Catherine was obviously infatuated with Dereham - but she was so young and, sadly, gave little thought to the long term consequences. Was Catherine abused? - having listened to your presentation of the primary sources I feel perhaps not. David Starkey affectionately described her as a 'good time girl'. However, no matter her character or intelligence level - she met her end with great dignity. Many thanks Claire for this thought provoking broadcast.

I'd say if she was 13 and Maddox 18 it's still pretty disgusting, at that age 5 years make a huge difference. Maybe she wasn't groomed and raped by today's standards (though I still don't think it was consensual) but she definitely had nobody to teach her better (kids were often left alone in the mansion she was sent to), moreover she probably wasn't very bright and obviously people took advantage of her. Had she been smart and mature enough she probably wouldn't have gotten back with Dereham and rejected Culpeper. She knew that H8 had beheaded a wife already and nobody in their right mind would be that careless. Had she also claimed that she and Dereham were already "married" (even with just a verbal agreement) probably she could have managed to save herself, exiled or sent to a nunnery but alive but she panicked and had nobody to advise her. She was just a kid who was neglected and used by many people, if not groomed and abused.

I absolutely agree with you. I do not believe she was groomed nor abused. Exploited yes. But young people were exploited back then especially women. It’s very easy to look through our lens now and make judgments but just as in times of 50’s, 60’s, 70’s etc it was normal for people to get married in highschool. I just think society and social justice issues have made it harder for us to imagine or be ok with the societal standards from then.

Girls in the time of Henry VIII were considered adults when they began menstruation. They were then women. Therefore, 12-13 was considered acceptable. Also, women died very young then

Hi _ Mary Boleyn is my 24th Great Grandmother! I am also related to the Spencers but am I royal? No - I came from a council estate in Liverpool, yet my current relatives have Manor House’s (eg Ingatestone / Petre family) I’d love a real genealogist to do my tree _ my eyes were popping out of my head. I’m linked to most of the Tudor Court and beyond!

I had a 17 year old boyfriend when I was fifteen in the 1970's. It wasn't sexual, but it was the norm then, nobody batted an eyelid. Looking back I honestly think that boys were not as mature as girls were, but I think both sexes were a lot more (on the whole) more mature than teenagers today. We were not as mollycoddled then & had to do things ourselves (not being driven anywhere) there were buses lol. I was working full time at sixteen, went on holiday with a friend & regularly went to rock festivals. It was the norm.

Katherine was not the sweet innocent young woman in my opinon, in her defence she was nieve at times, she certainly didn't deserve to be executed and as for those 3 men they werent very discreet about Katherine, who can say it might have saved them.

The struggle I have with this video is back then it wasn’t considered grooming and totally consensual but from our modern lense it definitely was, and besides the contemporary perspective would be against Catherine to please Henry like the charges against Anne

Thank you for this thorough explanation, I agree with you.

I agree with you entirely. My husband, who taught junior high classes for 37 years, says Catherine reminds him of many girls who were in his classes. We read Mr. Russell's book and enjoyed it very much.

7:50 she could have "consented" but someone on her early teens can't truly consent to an adult, bc she can't fully understand the implications

Thank you for this video. I have Gareth’s book out haven’t gotten to it yet. I’ll move it up the pile 😊 I think we read into history with a “current” lense. What was normal isn’t now. Look at the Victorians! We’re still cleaning up the mess 😮 She does seem like a girl who couldn’t read the room though. Even if you are a “good time girl” being married to a king who has killed a wife should moderate your behavior. 😢 I feel sorry for her. Young and not street smart and fair is more like it.

I am uncomfortable concluding that Catherine Howard was not groomed, simply because sources at the time do not use the word "groom" to describe those situations, because all interactions appeared consensual, or because many women at that time were groomed/exploited so it could not be grooming. Catherine was privileged and therefore protected in many ways, but it may have also made her a bigger target to certain people. Catherine's early death may have prevented later reflection on these situations. The aspects of royalty aside, this situation was not uncommon for the time and grooming is very common today, even among individuals who are close in age. We cannot know everything about a relationship between two people unless we are one of those two people. We absolutely should not assume Catherine was groomed--the evidence for that is extremely weak. She is an unfortunate example of the double standard between men and women (Henry had how many mistresses over the years?) and possibly of the belief that her privilege would protect her.

It is extraordinarily difficult for us to leave our own contemporary attitudes when looking at prior centuries. I think that Catherine Howard was very young and not well guided - and men treated her very selfishly. Yet she was also a member of one of the most powerful aristocratic families of her age, and had a sense of her own importance as a Howard. The situation is not one we really have in our current society. So I find it difficult to judge. We can see the senseless tragedy without apportioning blame among those who acted.

Oooooo - can’t wait for that Catherine book! 🤩 Customer right here 👍

I believe she was hypersexual due to her entanglements before marriage. She didn't seem to value her virginity enough until she went to court. However, her meeting Culpepper from 11pm-4am clearly suggests they had sexual relations. I do not believe they spent 4 hours together and never did anything physical. I just think Culpepper was hoping there would be a slight chance the King would pardon him, so he took it not caring about Catherine's fate at all. I do believe Catherine was the only wife who wronged Henry. Unlike her cousin Anne, she did commit the crimes and to me, she wasn't a victim. Henry did a full investigation into what happened. He did no such thing with Anne and got rid of her quickly. Catherine, I believe broke his heart and I don't believe he would have executed her without a good amount of evidence.

I agree with your view. In the mid XIXth century in Mexico, my grandmother's mother was married at 14 to a widow of 40, and that was "normal" for the age. I think the same happened in Tudor's time, and Catherine could be, as you also say, an eager teenager wanting to explore sex, first with intimate touchings and kisses (Mannix), and then with full sexual relations (Derham) before meeting Culpepper, and the King.

I think it is very easy to view historical times through a modern lens. It is easy to forget that norms were very different. It was normal for her to live away from her family. Class, family names and wealth held more power. While a very sad story I dont think she was abused.

I really enjoyed hearing your views on Catherine Howard and I agree with you. Thank you

While I do appreciate that you are looking at history and not putting modern standards on to these people, she does still sound like she was abused, though. People before us and after the Tudors, put their standard on her and she was made out to be a stupid little tramp. I do like that you show that she had more autonomy than we are seeing. Her grandmother neglected her and all the girls she were in her charge. The people then knew that there would be trouble because of the neglect. The woman had no problem hitting her. Hitting children still produced pain and tears then and it does now because we still have nerve endings and tear ducts. These people didn't like Henry Maddox around Katherine. It was seen as inappropriate in some way, even if it's not for the same reasons as us. She broke it off with him after seeing he was a sleazebag. Love to see that autonomy that I was talking about. (But why is it that the records say that Maddox* was 23 or older?) Francis turned into a jealous and possessive guy. The Dowager Duchess didn't like him either. And even if it's not in the record, jealousy and possessiveness often leads to abuse. Too many real life experiences that tell us this. He was also a stupid opportunist who thought he could use their past as blackmail to get status and money from her. He didn't think that if he spilled the beans that he wouldn't have been in trouble with the volatile King Henry. King Henry was definitely an abusive man. She didn't expect to marry the guy when she was with Francis. What the King wants, the King gets. How could she or any of the Howards stop him from pursuing her? He could have divorced her instead of beheading her. I also on some level don't blame her for the affair. King Henry was obese and stank because of his leg ulcer that leaked pus. He had the nerve to bash Anne of Cleves for her looks when Henry* was not the attractive, athletic jock people said he used to be. I can't blame her for wanting someone closer to her age that didn't have such a terrible temper. But it was not smart for her to pursue Culpepper. Your husband having the ability to end you without legal repercussions is like domestic violence times a million. And Henry could have just divorced her. Abuse followed this girl like a long shadow. You are right that these guys were horrible. But she was failed by so many people in her life. She abused by so many people in her life.

I FEEL SHE WAS USED BY THE OLDER PEOPLE IN HER LIFE.

you are an amazing historian....I love the Tudor dynasty...

It's always difficult when we impose 21st century law, beliefs, morals and mores on history. Only 100 years ago, women could not vote in most of the world. Most wouldn't be accepted in medical or law school, let alone college or the military. Only 150 years ago, people of colour were enslaved in the "land of the free." Only sixty or so years ago, homosexuals were imprisoned, and don't even start on transgenders. I believe Catherine Howard was used by her family to claw their up toward the crown, but a girl of 14 whose life expectation was probably 50 and who lived the way she did, was probably at least partially responsible for her own downfall. I want to know why they all told the truth!! Were they afraid of hell?

I know it's not scientific, but when a 13 year old behaves that way, shouldn't we assume ~something~ is wrong?

I think the relationship with Mannox being completely consensual is a bit iffy. He was an adult by the standards of the time, but she wasn’t. Regarding age of consent, just because it was low doesn’t make it OK. Typically this is true when women and girls have no power, as they didn’t in the early modern world. It doesn’t mean it wasn’t traumatic, unless they married someone their own age. A letter survives from Katherine Willoughby begging that her daughter not be married at the age she was, and saying you don’t know what it means to the young girl in that situation. She was an elite woman. They were the only ones we are even able to hear from, and when they had an opportunity to speak, they didn’t indicate it was great. Even Margaret Beaufort didn’t want her granddaughter married at that age. But notice that neither woman can insist, even as the most elite women of their time. Men made the decisions and it was about what they wanted, nothing else. Certainly true for Charles Brandon.

I think the argument stems from people looking at history with our modern ideas and customs. People can say "she was too young to consent" or "she was a child/teenager" or stuff like that, but that is using our modern knowledge and societal norms as ways to judge the past. As Claire states, there was no real concept of being a teenager in Tudor England. That's a modern thing. You went from child to adulthood, and for girls, that adjustment happened when they began their menstrual cycles if I am not wrong. There was also no true age of consent in those times. Does that make what happened to her okay? In our modern thinking, absolutely no, and no one is saying that. But when considering the period and the mindsets back then, it was not seen as a crime of any means (unless you are King Henry VIII finding out about it over a year into the marriage). My interest in Tudor England started when I was ten years old, over 23 years ago now, and while reading some of the things that were normal back then do irk me, I feel like trying to apply modern day labels or ideals to historical figures and events is doing a disservice to history because those are significantly different times with completely different mentalities. There are certainly people, and young girls, who were taken advantage of in ways that we would scream in rage at today if it happened, such as Elizabeth I and Thomas Seymour's behavior with her, as well as the events that put Lady Jane Grey on the throne. Yet, I don't see Catherine as a victim of abuse or grooming here, as the evidence does not seem to paint her as a victim. She knew who she was, she knew she had the power in her relationships with Manox and Dereham, she was in control. The only person she felt victim to was Henry VIII and his lust. Society has evolved in the last 500 years. The rising life expectancy has made it so girls aren't needed to have kids as soon as they can. Kids are allowed to be teenagers. Women have control over their lives and decisions (in most cases). We also understand much more about ourselves thanks to scientific advancements. But I do not believe that history should be read or judged with modern day mindsets, instead we are able to understand those events better when we look at history with the mindset of the day instead.