Quick update: I said, at the time of filming, that I didn’t own any King equipment… well, stay tuned, because I recently acquired a piece of King history for a VERY good deal! Just gotta do some restoration work first…
Two years ago (Facebook reminded me yesterday) I bought a King 600 Cleveland as a practice horn. Because it needed some minor valve work I've played it only occasionally. During the past few days, though, my old school trumpet has been getting some love. It has everything you describe: a sweet sound that plays evenly throughout the normal range. Because the horn is approaching 50 years old, it has some corrosion, especially in the receiver. Now it has its own dedicated mouthpieces. I'm now motivated to spend a little money for springs and valve guides. After that we'll see if "Cleveland rocks"!
@@JamesFranklin-hd4tm I’m glad it turned out to be a good purchase! Hope you can get the valves up to snuff. What mouthpieces did you end up ‘dedicating’ to it, out of curiosity?
@@SamuelPlaysBrass A Bach Corp. 3C from the late '70's. I found that when I used my newer 3C it put some of the 600's corrosion into the receiver of my newer trumpet. So I took my older 3C out of the box. As you probably know, an older Bach mouthpiece is quite different from newer models. The 600 just needs new springs and valve guides. Wouldn't be surprised if they were never changed.
Thank you, Tom! It’s been a long time coming but the journey of learning about all sorts of different horns has been amazing, and you have been an instrumental part of it!
@@SamuelPlaysBrass Pun intended? 🤣🤣 Instrumental 🤣 Hey, I'm not that important - you've got a lot of natural talent and a great way of presenting yourself, nothing I've ever said could've helped with the key reasons you've got where you have 👍👍
@@SamuelPlaysBrass I AM old (:> ). My first trombone was a King Cleveland that I earned while working for Broward Band Instrument Repair in Fort Lauderdale, Florida in the summer of 1965 before my sophomore year in HS. Since then I've owned dozens of King instruments. Currently I regularly play my 2B Silversonic, 3B-F Silversonic and 6B Bass and a King large bore, 4-valve Euphonium.
My first trumpet in 1987 was a King Tempo 600 with a bore size of .464. It is true that I was eager to get a professional model horn, but this became my marching horn which I used all through HS and even for a little in college until it's demise. The upper register was pretty solid on the horn.
I just picked up a 1989 Tempo model 606 trombone. Very similar impressions: solid high register and "lead tone" for jazz and studio work. Very excited to spend some more time on it.
Have you tried any of the King Tempo 1 trumpets, cornets or trombones? They were made in the late 1960s. I have several of each of the trumpets and cornets and one trombone. They are much better playing and sounding than the later Tempo 2s, IMHO. They have a distinctive appearance being mostly nickel-plated. Also they came in a beautiful hard case that was a blue-gray tweed and black with nickel hardware. With a little tweaking, the trumpets and cornets really open up and play nicely. I wish I could post a photo here, but you can search them online easily, if you're not familiar with them. Thanks for posting these videos. You are doing a great job and your honesty and humility are rare and refreshing. Keep up the good work!
I've seen a number of those online but sadly never tried any. They look like a lot of fun. I like how the Tempo 1 trombone has a curved brace like their professional models. Thanks for your comment and the kind words!
Also because a trumpet is stamped 'Cleveland' doesn't necessarily mean it was made there. I found this on the King website: - '1973 KMI is making the King, Cleveland, Tempo, and Eroica models at Eastlake (US Tariff Report).' So 'Cleveland' models were being made at Eastlake as well. The only reliable way of identifying an instrument made at the Cleveland factory is via the serial number. If that dates it before 1966 then it was probably made in Cleveland.
That must have been the part of the King Tempo line from the 70s-90s. Great horns. After the Tempo was where things really went downhill. If you look closely, Tempo 600s were built on the same or very similar chassis as the Cleveland 600.
I played a king 602 Cleveland cornet when I did a small performance of Clarke’s carnival of Venice. It handled the lines like a champ and sounded great
If I remember correctly, Cleveland was a separate company and brand that HN White bought and used as a lower, value line to the King brand. Here's an excerpt from the HN White website: In 1925 Mr. White bought the Cleveland Musical Instrument Company. The Cleveland Musical Instrument Company was formed in February of 1919 and was known for their Cleveland Trumpet. The Company was successful for awhile and at one time employed fifteen people. But as frequently happens with new companies, overhead and expenses were too great for the volume of business they could command. For two years The H. N. White Company made instruments for Cleveland to help fill back orders. Mr. White saw the Cleveland brand as the perfect fit to cover the growing school band market which demanded high quality instruments at a low price. The Cleveland brand, along with American Standard were marketed to marching bands and schools. Both were about 40% less in price than a "King." So, I'm thinking IF there was ever a King 600 and a Cleveland 600 produced around the same year, the King 600 should have been the better horn. However, a much older Cleveland 600 could be better than a much newer King 600.
Thanks for the information, Bill. That certainly explains why Cleveland 600 trumpets end up on pawn shop walls for so dirt cheap. Now, this is only my speculation (though if anyone reading this knows better, they should feel free to correct me…) My thinking is that King (HN White) only (or mostly) manufactured student instruments through the Cleveland moniker once they acquired CMIC. After all, “King” was the prestigious name attached to Liberty, Silver Flair, Silversonic, Symphony 20, and other such trumpets at that point. Then, when the factory moved to Eastlake, they dropped the moniker and did a (rather unfortunate) aesthetic and sonic redesign on some of their instruments. I have seen very many 600’s pass through the shop where I service horns-all the older ones say Cleveland, and all the new ones do not. The dates also seem to line up. Perhaps the sample size I’ve encountered is still inadequate, but that’s my theory.
I suspect we might be talking about 2 completely different trumpets. Not just Cleveland v Eastlake but a different horn. Basically KMI bought H N White in 1965. They continued the HN White designs until around 1979/80 (so an HN White Super 20 & a KMI Super 20 are basically the same thing). However after this they redesigned the range with the 2000 trumpets series. A few years later they were bought by UMI who rebadged some of these. The King Silver Flair (2055T not the original 1055T) and the Benge Leonore appear to be based on the 2000 design & look to share common parts. The UMI student horns look to have these parts too so I question whether a UMI era 600 is even the same horn as the H N White/KMI 600? And it's not just whether it was Cleveland or Eastlake - that's too simple. The Eastlake site was bought by Mrs White and operated for several years by KMI prior to the UMI period and they built many of the same horns there as at Cleveland. I would say the break is between the pre and post 79 horns. The latter seem to me all to be based on the UMI parts bin which I believe originate with the 2000 series horns designed in the dying days of KMI. The UMIs are not bad horns btw on the whole. But they are not of the standard of H N White/KMI.
Thanks for the info, Steven. There’s a lot to process there, but you’re right that I should have been clearer in this video that the Cleveland 600 is not really the same model of instrument as the King 600. In my head this was implied, as the two look different and have totally different engraving, but I should have stated this. I find it confusing, though, how “Cleveland” was both the location of the factory and the moniker used for this line of trumpets, especially considering (as you mentioned in your other comment) this trumpet wasn’t actually made during the Cleveland, OH era.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass not your fault Samuel. i think we're all a bit confused by King history. I have 2 Liberty 2Bs (the .458 bore ML one) and they are identical in every respect to my eye - save for the serial number. Yet one comes from HN white days at Cleveland around 1961 the other from KMI at Eastlake and 1969. UMI have a habit of reusing King names like 'Silver Flair' to describe completely different horns. The modern 2055T is a completely different horns from the earlier HN White 1055T one yet uses the same name. Btw both were made at Eastlake in different eras though the 1055 was built at Cleveland for a couple of years to start with. i suspect UMI might have resurrected the Cleveland name on some of its later horns but none could have been made at Cleveland since UMI never manufactured there to my knowledge. The factory uprooted around 66 but UMI only took control around 85.
My first trumpet was a King. I wish I could remember which model - I haven't seen one with bell art like I remember. (Unfortunately, it's a "I'll recognize it when I see it" type thing, as I'd happily describe the art to help with ID if I could.)
i find that the King 601 is a very closed off student horn. However its predecessor the 600 is a little hidden jem for me. At one point I owned both horns and I quickly traded off the 601. I still have that 600 and use it sparingly but it is an amazing back up horn and I keep it in playable shape and will sometimes break it out for combo sessions and athletic bands.
Precisely, although there is a BIG distinction to be made between the Cleveland and Eastlake 600. The latter is basically a 601 without a thumb saddle, but the former is what you are describing as a hidden gem.
I appreciate this video.... I saw the previous one and I was a bit perplexed.... why? Because I own a King Cleveland 600 Serial Number 242xxx. It’s silver plated with golden bell. I had a Stradivarius and this King feels pretty solid compared to the Bach, although the sound of the Bach is superior. Anyway I like your 2023 perspective better.
Thanks for watching! This is a prime example of why I felt the need to re-examine the King 600. A lot of people who are familiar with the Cleveland 600 were surprised by my negative assessment of the Eastlake.
Would you have any info or experience with the King Cleveland Superior, please? I`m likely to buy one for 130 dollars. It looks amazing with no damage or apparent issues, Is it worth the investment? Someone said to me the Superior line was prior to the 600.
I’ve never had the opportunity to try one, but it does seem to be the precursor to the Cleveland 600, and that would likely make it a solid horn, particularly for that price tag.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass Hi, Thanks for your reply. Will see how it sounds. Initially, I was thinking about a newer Yamaha "beginner model", but it costs more than that. Hopefully will be a good horn as we would expect from a King. Best wishes and congrats on the channel.
Thanks for your thoughts about the 600. My understanding is the 601 adds a thumb hook and a larger .462 bore. I realize this is a 600 video review. Any thoughts about the 601? Thank you.
I’m in favor of the thumb hook by all means, but I don’t play well on large bores. Also, I’m pretty sure the 601 is a newer model, meaning I don’t know if it’s old enough to have been produced in the Cleveland factory, and so as per the thesis of this video, if it’s from the newer Eastlake factory, chances are it plays alright, and not much more than that.
I think it is indeed a later variant-these Clevelands are almost professional horns if found in good enough condition, the Tempos seem to have been marketed as a good intermediate, and the modern Eastlake-made 600’s with no additional branding are firmly student models, and not the best even at that.
I'd like to update my statement here. Today I drove to pick up what was just advertised as a "King trombone" on FB Marketplace. It turned out to be a Tempo 606 from 1989. I was worried I wouldn't like it as much as I like the Cleveland 606 trombone (which is the exact analogue to the trumpet in this video), but I was VERY pleasantly surprised by the Tempo. Perhaps King did a good job of capturing the "vintage" vibe found in the Clevelands in their newer Tempo models.
so, my dad played a trumpet when he was young. idk what it was, or if it even was an actual trumpet 😅 i would ask him, but i highly doubt that he still has it or that he EVEN remembers it!
Ooh yeah it’s unlikely he’d remember what model it is but if it was a typical student instrument of the time, it’s highly likely it was one of the following: Olds Ambassador, Conn Director, Bundy, or maybe a King 600 like this one. I think those models are what most people started out on back then.
Yo Sam I’m having to trouble reaching my high register on my bf trumpet like I can go only to a high g is their any tips you got for me I’m a intermediate about to be advance
Have a look at this video I did. I played mediocrely at the time, due to a recent embouchure shift, but the pedagogy still holds up: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-rr01JH6BbS0.html
Yo I got to a high A but I need a lot of practice with the abdominal pressure to reach the high note because I still fall off of the note when I practice my high register but I does help with reaching that G above the staff better
Hi Mike, thanks for your comment. I recently got to play an Ambassador from 1948. It seems that it was not only made in Los Angeles, but that it was also made in the first year of production of the Ambassador line. Do you happen to know if that is true?
@@SamuelPlaysBrass Yeah, that was the beginning, they really took their time crafting their entry level horns, like their pro line, great beginner horn, that appreciates....
@@mikestang679 I could tell there was a lot of love put into it for sure! It was better than the largely unremarkable 6-digit serial Ambassadors I’ve played (PLENTY in my time as a repair tech). Nice Harry James-esque sound and a great deal of flexibility and handling power above the staff. Just not a whole lot of security or depth to the tone below the staff unfortunately…
