Was it smart to add the Elves to the Battle of Helm's Deep? 

Hey guys I hope you enjoy this video! It's part of a new series that I'll be working on, which breaks down some of the changes in the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Let me know if you have any requests, and as always subtitles are available and feedback is welcome!

It didn't bother me all too much, especially since the men of Rohan still got to have their moment of glory with the epic charge in the Battle of Pelennor Fields. And otherwise the only time we would have seen elvish warfare was in the last alliance in the prologue.

Apologies, this will be long. Personally, I do think adding the Elves was a good choice for a different reason. When they fall and get overrun, it shows even further just how dangerous the Uruk Hai are, which is something I felt the films did far better than the books in that regard, the Uruk Hai talk a big game in the books, but they're still inferior to the average man, dwarf and certainly elf. Their assault in the books is clumsy, bumbling and they've pretty much lost the battle by the time Gandalf arrives with the reinforcements for what amounts to a mopping up of the already routing host of Isengard. Contrast this with the film, where the assault is still reckless, but it's decidedly lethal, imparts a sense of dread inevitability as the Uruk Hai are taller and stronger than most of the professional soldiers and even elves. You get the sense that Saruman really did 'Perfect' the Uruk Hai to the maximum potential of the Orc species. They have special gear, armor and everything is tailored to help them specifically against Rohan. The pikes and swords they wield are designed to counter cavalry and pull horsemen off with the spikes, the pikes bisect tip is for scooping up the ladders to prop them, the ladders have hooks for the walls, the armor is designed to be much heavier than regular orcs, we even see the Uruk Hai utilizing a Testudo Formation to block arrow fire and then there's the black powder they use to blast open the wall. I particularly liked the scene where a member of the defenders hits an Uruk Hai with an axe in the shoulder, only to be grabbed by the Uruk Hai, thrown against the wall and then the camera goes to this fellows POV as the Uruk Hai's iron armored fist slams into his face cutting to black as the transition to Theoden. It highlights just how dangerous these foes are compared to the goblins and orcs we've seen before and so victory doesn't seem as sure as it does in the book where the Uruks basically use weight of numbers and little else. Isengard in the films feels far more industrialized and capable than it ever does in the books and as such it carries with it far greater threat presence so that when they are defeated, it feels far more earned and like a triumph against the odds rather than a certainty like it is in the novels. To me that makes it so that when Eomer and the reinforcements arrive in the film, it's not at an already won battle, but rather at the darkest hour of a desperate last charge by the few survivors of the garrison. It is the men that definitively win the battle, rather than the elves. This also makes Mordor come off as far more dangerous as Isengard is but a fraction of the strength of Mordor, so it builds dread for that confrontation in the next film I think.

It was such a powerful moment. In their darkest hour, the elves come in with a small host and bring back the old bonds they once had.

My thought is that if the Hobbit had been done first or at the very least had been done right after LOTR, then it would had been a bad idea. As the LOTR was originally going to stand alone, I like that Peter Jackson showed us how elves fought.

I Loved it when the Elves arrived at Helm's Deep. It gave us a slight glimmer of hope, which was much appreciated. Their willingness to join men in common bond was inspiring.

The main issue was deeper imo. The Elves were waning. They were losing interest in Earthly matters and fought mainly to defend their own turf. It was very out of character for the Elves to march hundreds of kilometers to help Rohan.

Even in Return of the King it was mentioned by Legolas in his talk with Gimli that he sensed that war was marching upon the lands of the Dwarves when his Dwarven friend longed to muster a legion of Dwarves alongside the Rohirrim.

It popped in my mind the other day. That little boy and girl (Eothain and Freda) who escaped from their village and made it to Rohan safely, before going to Helm's Deep and reuniting with their mother; I just realized that little boy is probably dead now. We see some awfully young children being prepped for battle and that boy was around that age. He was most likely sent out into battle. In the movie, the only survivors we see from the battle were the men in their prime. Or at least not old, and none of them were children. Even the all the elves died. Quick suggestion for your videos. At the end when all the click boxes pop up, can you move them up higher? They cover the captions.

The the disappointment that I have is that those elite elves seems to be shown weak in close combat. None also seem to survive and shown honor with their sacrifice in a form of burial to aid the humans, especially Haldir.

I'm glad elves showed up to help. Throughout the whole story, the fact that the elves are leaving Middle Earth hangs around the audience's head. It kind of feels like they're fleeing from the war and Elrond's spiel about the failures of humans just makes it sound like the elves are cutting their losses and abandoning the people of Middle Earth when their aid, guidance, and leadership would be needed most. An army of elves showing up to aid in the Battle of Helm's Deep reminds us that the elves aren't cowards. I just wish the movie followed up on their presence. After Rohan's forces retreat to inside the fortress, the elves just disappear. It's never said what happened to them afterwards. Were they completely wiped out or did they integrate into Rohan's surviving soldiers? After the battle, did some of the elves stick around to help Rohan rebuild? Did they develop friendships with the people? Or even romantic relationships? Was Arwen really the only elf that chose to stay in Middle Earth or were there others?? So many story possibilities that go completely unanswered.

Since movies are inherently a "show don't tell' media, I really liked seeing the elves and how they contrasted to the men in their look, feel, and style of fighting. With decades of pop culture osmosis we KNOW inherently that elves are different and "superior" to mortal men, but there's definitive value to SEEING it and feeling the bonds between men and elves as well as having a legitimate final huzzah for the elves of Middle-Earth. It didn't take away from the men who ultimately did overcome the shadow, it gave a fantastic sendoff to the definitive depiction of elves in fantasy

A happy compromise could of been Arwen ridding to help defend Lorien from Orcs had Peter Jackson been more faithful to the books with the elves defending there territories from Orc attacks after Aragorn revealed himself to Sauron, though that would of probably been beyond the budget and the audiences attention span for the movies. In the end, I think having Arwen take the place of Glorfindel was enough to make Arwen more than a static reward that Aragorn has to earn at the end of the trilogy, but not enough to over do the PC element and turn her into Xena: the Warrior Princess

It would be cool if they showed the war in the north and Lothlorian defending themselves also.

I like that the elves showed up to help as it proved while they are leaving they were not doing so without giving all the help they can to the other free people. Elrond and Galadriel both probably remember “the last alliance” and looked to see who wanted to fight and who wanted to leave as some elves enjoyed defending against evil. Haldir leading as commander also gives the impression that he was chomping at the bit to suit up and take down some orcs before he left or stayed.

They created the same problem in the 3rd movie by making Gondor seem like it is just Minas Tirith and completely ignore the whole rest of the country so they are forced to use the army of the dead as a Deus ex machina instead of having Aragorn show up with reinforcements from the southern fiefs of Gondor

You could have cut out all of the Elves participation in the Battle of Helm's Deep and the movie would not have suffered whatsoever. So... What happened to the Elves after the battle in the movie? That was not however a game changer for me as far as the LOTR movie goes. I appreciate your take on this matter. Well done sir!

I think that in film Hama dies too. Though not in battle of Helm's Deep but in earlier fight with wargs. He's the one warg throws off his horse and then chomps on him before Legolas comes and shoots it I believe. The boy with whom Aragorn talks to before Elves arrieve introduces himself as Hama's son.

Yo! I'm so glad you have the time and energy to voice your own videos again. It's good to have you back!

I am very glad they did not have Arwen participate in battles, because the whole point of Eowyn's fighting is that the Rohan were unusual in teaching their women to fight. Arwen represents the lady waiting at home for war to end, doing her part as she can to help. In the movie, she has the sword fixed; in the book, she makes the flag of the king of Gondor. Both accomplish the same end: the item she sends causes the dead to recognize Aragorn as the one to whom they can fulfill their oath. In a very domestic sort of way, Arwen helps save Gondor. Eowyn is a wild sort of woman: a woman who can fight, but also a woman with great grief. While her actions are heroic as takes down the biggest boss, she goes into battle with a death wish and has no desire to continue living even after she is healed. With wisdom, Faramir helps Eowyn overcome her depression and despair so she too can have peace. I am disappointed Jackson felt the need to have Arwen and Aragorn arguing if she should go to the Undying Lands or not and even more so about the dream Aragorn has about her when he "dies." All these were completely unnecessary. All that had to be established that Arwen might not be a possibility was for Elrond to tell Aragorn he was sending her to the undying lands.

I love Tolkien, yet Aragorn beheading the mouth of Sauron at the black gate offended me waaaaaay more than elves at Helms Deep.

This was the only movie change I had a hard time accepting. Haldier's scene was cut from the theatrical release, so people who hadn't read the book had no clue who he was when he and the elves showed up.

Thanks for the video. Personally, I thought the inclusion of the Elven forces worked quite well in the movie. If memory recalls, I think Elrond's two sons turned up to report to Aragorn, so it is no giant leap to increase this to include a contingency of Elven fighters. Also, cinematically, it was great! 😎

I think the addition of the Elves in the Two Towers movie was a great idea.

When Haldir died, it broke my heart, and truly made me feel like that battle was lost. After the movies I read the books, and I understand the difference, but I think Peter Jackson did it the best way he could.

My introduction to Tolkien was PJ’s movies, so I’m very attached to them. The Elves showing up was one of my favorite parts in the movie when I was little and it still is. I really like how their presence elevates the theme of unity of all people, no matter who they are, against evil that is so important to the overall story. But having the Rohirrim stand alone really helps with the theme of strength and hope even in the most dire situations. I got both versions around the same time and I like both versions of the story equally!

Yes! More Geekzone LOTR!!! 💚

I'm glad folks seemed to like Elves in this battle, and I can understand all your points. I always thought this sort of came out of left field and didn't actually impact the story in a meaningful way. On a movie level there's no real thematic or plot consequence from the elves in battle. Haldir's death kind of aligns with the fading of the Elves, but we don't see that element present as strongly as we do in the books, although I agree that somehow his immortality makes death that much scarier. Within the context of the film, Galadriel never speaks of them, there's no vengeance, impetus, or mustering of any other Elvish forces. There's not really a point or consequence. They also don't really help the Rohirrim win the battle, they don't quite fend off the Uruk-hai once they breach the wall, and the battle is decided by Theoden's last ride, Gandalf's return with Eomer, dawn, and the Huorns. They aren't even seen or thanked after the battle. Lore-wise, it's all kinds of messed up. So, let's just nerd out with me quick. The Last Alliance was a really true mustering, we kind of forget that those Noldorin Elves and Numenoreans stood against a larger Mordor force than they had in the third age for SEVEN YEARS. The mostly Sindarin elves of Lorien committing to this alliance with the Rohirrim doesn't really echo that old alliance at all, but fine, I get that it's supposed to be symbolic. On the more nitpicking side, how did the elves get there so fast and how did they even know where to go? I don't know. It IS cool to see them fight, and Haldir's death is tragic, that's all cool. But it doesn't hold up with lore or the movie, so I'm a sourpuss

Everything you said about Arwen is TRUE FOR GALADRIEL IN "The Rings of Power"!!!

It didn't bother me to see Elves in battle, their entrance, however, was awesome

I appreciate you coming back Karl. I like how you speak. I would listen to you in audiobooks for sure.

Im glad they included the elves as I thought that the intro in fellowship was a bit short..so the participation of the Elves, the eternal enemies of Morgoth and Sauron was much a welcome scene to me...there were no other major battles involving the elves from the trilogy, so Im very glad they did actively participate in Helm's deep.

Omg you are back! Missed your voice so much. I took a break from patreon. I'll get that back going again.

I don't know how smart it was but it was cool AF

Hey welcome back Carl. Are you back for good? Awesome video. I just watched you're Tulkas video also.

I'm honestly pretty much ok with most of the changes they made in TLotR trilogy (less so the Hobbit but let's not go there), there are a few I was meh on but most either served the purpose of making the stakes higher or for expedience since they can't show everything that was in the books. I think the inclusion of the elves at Helms Deep sorta serves both. The Uruk'hai clearly have the advantage in the movie so the elven reinforcements give us a brief sense of respite before utterly destroying it when they're slaughtered making Gandalf and Eomers arrival feel like a saving miracle rather that a predestined inevitability. It also offers the mentioned expedience of showing that the other races are fighting though I do agree that they could have added a little more to somehow show this a bit better even if the scenes were short.

I liked the elves showing up. It's really cool when they arrive and when they fight. There are lots of parts in the books that don't make it into the films and yet the films are still great so adding the elves to the battle makes it even more epic. By showing Haldir dying along with his soldiers it further shows the strength and courage of men, even with their allies dying they still are willing to defend themselves to the last man.

love to see u back Karl u are one of the best here for sure :) great video, these kind of videos are nice, digging up ME misterys is always the best, keep it up!

It was cool to see the difference between the men and elves in the way they moves and conducted themselves. The elves moved in unison and seemed very disciplined. It also showed how bad their odds of success were when the enemy started getting the upper hand, despite the elite-looking warriors being there to help.

Thank the gods Karl is back!!!

Great video! Thank you!!

We dodged that bullet then. Thankfully that wasn't added . Feels like they would have made Arwen more like Tauriel, which would have been a huge mistake!!!!

I love the books and the movies ..Look I know he had like 60 seconds of screen time , but when the elf captain died I actually felt sad and my heart sank .. His speech before hand is probably why but I'm not gonna try to pick at it .. I just enjoy it for what it is , an amazing tale of wanderers turned hero's , past hero's made villains and the fact that hope is still possible even in the face of the most impossible of odds .

Happy Tolkien Reading Day buddy! Hope you are doing well!

I admit I'm conflicted about it myself. Because other parts of the battle were changed or omitted like it was eomer who was at the fortress with the others, that he didn't ride to the king at the end. That the fight at the glittering caves were omitted. I suppose with changes like that omitted from the movie, I suppose in part that it was ok for the elves to be there since the battle didn't 100% follow the book

Agree with everyone on the thread. In terms of the film, the elves showing up definitely added to the film. In fact I almost wanted to see them perhaps show better skills during the battle, but get this would probably take the battle in a direction it wasn't supposed to go.

It helped make this battle scene one of the greatest battle scenes ever seen. Fantastic, just wish Haldir made it

I didn't like a lot of The Two Towers movie. I thought it wasted screen time on too many things not in the books. I only ever watched it once and never will again. Actually the elves fighting at Helm's Deep wasn't the worst part of it, I didn't mind it as much as the other things they added as well as left out.

What works in a book doesn't always work in a movie (or vice versa). Most of the changes were necessary to make 3 great films. A more faithful adaptation would have made for less enjoyable films (for people who weren't hardcore Tolkien fans).

I feel like it didn't take much away from the Valor of men cuz they pretty much ignore all mention of the elves after the scenes so u mostly totally forget it. I thought it would've been awesome if they had sent a a few company of dwarves and elves at the final battle.

I agree with what you’ve suggested and I think having the elves makes it not only fair in the odds that are stacked agains Rohan, but also the fact that realistically if they left the elves out and only put in 200 or so soldiers and conscripts, they would’ve all perished in less than 10mins. Not only that, but if they stuck more closely to the book, then the emotion of the entire battle wouldn’t be as powerful. Either way, it’s a smart choice if you have to sacrifice one aspect of the book to add another.

"Arwen doesn't need a sword in her hand to be important or to be strong." YES! Thank you!!

I'm glad you bring this up because I am always really disappointed when watching the battle in the movie. Sure the elves look epic but in fact only the ones from Valinor were so much superior to men who most of these elves are not. Tolkien actually deliberately not included such reinforcements to emphasize the estrangement of men and elves and the latter ones' reluctance to take much part in the events of the third age. Thus most of the elven characters act as councellors not warriors

The only thing that bothered me was the fact their fighting style on the wall gave me the feeling they were rookies. I mean 1 Uruk hai takes down 3 or 4 elves in 1 swing of the blade. Not really elven sword play if you ask me.

I cried when Haldir was killed, but I know in the book, he wasn't even there!

A smarter move would have been to have the Rangers of the North show up instead. Battle hardened warriors who headed south to join Aragorn. They appear in the books, although only a few, but could increase the numbers going and fighting (and dying) as to reduce to the book number of 30. I personally would love to have seen the Dunedain Rangers clad in Ancient armour of their ancestors battling Uruks and showing what awesome warriors they were. A much smarter tie-in in my opinion.

I have mixed feelings on the elves. It was fun to watch but for the reasons you gave it wasn't the best thing to do. If you really want to bring elves (or even dwarves as well) into the battles in the movies, it would have been best if this happened in the Battle of the Black Gate. Also, what happened to the elves at Helms Deep after the battle? They just vanished and it's very unlikely every single one of them would have died. Another question is why is Galadriel suggesting to Elrond to sent reinforcements to Rohan when the soldiers that were sent were from Lothlórien, not Imladris? I'm very glad the "enhanced" Arwen storyline was dropped. I didn't like what was done with her character in Fellowship as there nothing I remember ever reading about her being any sort of warrior. To have added to that by having her go south before the war was over would have added insult to injury.

The Elven reinforcement was a great addition to the movie.

Isengard is much closer to Helm’s Deep than Lothórien is, and the Uruk-hai started their march before Galadriel sent Haldir and a few elves to help the Rohirrim. How did Haldir and the elves beat the Uruk-hai to Helm’s Deep?

What I dislike most, is that the populace of Rohan in The Two Towers looks like only the inhabitans of a village called Edoras with 300 Men defending Helm's Deep and afterwards they ride to Minas Tirith with several thousand riders. And Gandalf brings Éomer to battle with a couple hundred riders while he had like 50 in the beginning of the movie.

The garrison in the book was mostly made up of the men too old or too young to ride with Erkenbrand to the battle at the fords, so teenagers and men older than maybe 50 or 60 (too many or too few winters was a line from the novel). Theodens force from Edoras were the warriors. So 1000 soldiers with 1000 ''reservists'' made up of guys who have experience but lack the strength and fitness to ride out to war or are green recruits only just old enough to hold a sword. The main problem with the Elves showing up is how did they get there so quickly when it took probably over a week for the other characters to get to Helms Deep from Lothlorien. Elves can move fast and maybe they took canoes to the Argonath like the Fellowship did but they didn't have horses and Helms Deep is a long way from the Anduin river. They would have had to leave around the same time as the Uruk-Hai ambush of the Fellowship in the forest at the end of the first movie. The movie made it appear like they teleported there while Galadriel was communicating with Elrond.

I loved the marching of the elves going into Helms deep, just didn't like Haldir killed, emotional in the arms of Aragorn!

They should have sent the Dunedain instead of the elves so it would still be only Men but to show the difference between the Dunedain and normal Men.

I far prefer the version in the movie , frankly .It evokes the deep friendship and brotherhood between Eldar and Edain and makes us think of the bonds that were forged since that first time when Finrod Felagund awoke the House of Balan with his beautiful music and deep admiration and Love birthed from each other .It even emulates when Barahir , descendant of Beör who was like a brother to Finrod , and his host saved the King of Nargothrond's Life and Finrod repaid it by saving Beren's Life , descendant of Barahir , at the cost of his own .Very beautiful .

Really enjoyed the video as always and I also preferred the book version of the battle.

Hama's death was shown in the movies though - he is killed by a warg when the people of Edoras are attacked on the way to Helm's Deep.

Great video :D I really enjoyed the inclusion of elves and putting the men of Rohan on the brink of destruction since it brought enormous stake for the battle+ included a race you don't see fight anywhere else in the trilogy and yes.... killed one of my fav characters haldir... don't know why but I thought he was so cool at the time xD And when the sun rises and Gandalf with eomer charge with the riders of Rohan at the peak it hits soooo hard :D I also like that they don't focus so much on individual characters story but the desperate struggle for all of the battle. That was one of the things they also did great for the siege of Minas tirith but failed at in the battle of five armies from my perspective :)

Even though I knew that the arrival of the elves was Peter Jackson's invention, I found that moment trilling. And I wouldn't agree that they were the decisive force for winning the battle. They just reinforce the Theoden's army until the arrival of Eorlings on the dawn of the 5th day. This was the the winning force and I think it was brilliantly done in the film. I'm also glad that Arwen did not shadowed Eowin's part as she is a favourite character of mine in LOTR.

I allways was wondering " why the elves just ran into speats?" Now I have the answer. Wich is "im not canon"

2 big thumbs up great work I loved it

First off Eomer arrived with roughly 2,000 Calvary... The elves did not have 1,000 troops they had something closer to 200.... It was a sizable contingent imo which did nothing and added nothing to the battle.... All these people on here saying that it took away from the struggle of the men and I call BS on that... Because it was a contingent it really wasn't an army.... And it really didn't add or take away anything in my opinion like I said... If anything... Peter Jackson should have had them show up in a larger Force along with Eomer... That would have made that on top of the hill scene....even MORE orgasmic 😂... With Eomers Calvary, Gandalf and 500 Elf Calvary headed by Haldir.... BEEUUUTTIIIFFFUUUULLL !!

1) Elves at Helm's deep I don't mind them being there, because, unlike books, movies had "no siblings" that could showcase the struggle of other races. Yes, this changes the story from the books but in my opinion - when you depict LOTR as a struggle of only Men, it changes the entire feeling of the world. So, it is the lesser evil, well done. The only thing I would love to see addressed is the importance of Rohan during the battle. What if Elves held the main battle line, but there was a dire weakness, a serious threat that would be only dependent on Rohan people and their strength? For example, they could defend some secret entrance Uruks found or idk. Have some scenes, where the entire outcome of the battle depended on the strength of Rohan. 2) Arwen - I like the choice of replacing Glorfindel as a character who saved Frodo from the Black Riders. Arwen deserved better exposition and having one fewer character is no great loss for movies, there are plenty. I also like that she was not pushed that much further. She is a bridge (I mean Aragorn is) a bridge between Elves and Men. She portrays fading of the power of Elves in her persona, but her character would be too overloaded if she had to do more. As you said, reunion after the quest is over is perfect.

The addition of elves to me is the perfect example of compromising the nature of the original story to preserve its spirit in making an adaptation.

For the elves in helms deep, I think it’s was a good compromise to show the elves in the War, given that the films didn’t have the time to show the War in others parts of middle earth like Mirkwood or the Lonely Mountain.

I think Peter Jackson should have been more faithful to the books and not include the Elves in Helm's Deep. besides, only having 300 pesants, not even professional soldiers made Rohan seem extremely weak prepared for anything, not just the Uruk-hai army. I mean, ONLY 300 people? that's not enough to even protect a small garrison. you are telling me the majority of the soldiers of Rohan followed Eomer instead of protecting Edoras or Helm's Deep? very strange if anyone with a brain is capable to think a little. also, thank God we had Arwen removed. the Aragorn, Arwen and Eowyn scenes would have been extremely awkward to watch. a cat fight over Aragorn, I bet.

As much as like the Galadrim Warriors, I think it would have made better sense to have the Dunedain Rangers come to the aid of Rohan at Helms Deep.

I think it works in a way for cinematic reasons (desperation etc) and for the story because otherwise it would look like the elves weren't in the war at all. But that is only because of OTHER decisions of the director, choosing other events to be missed out. But on the matter of sticking to the story, then I don't think they should have been there. Otherwise where do you draw the line at making changes from the book? It's only a step from having elves at this battle to deciding that there was also a Nazgul present, or having Faramir in the Fellowship, and then if you keep going eventually you're making loyal characters into traitors, killing off those that don't die in the book (oh wait they did that to Haldir didn't they 🤨), keeping those alive that do die etc (and then you have all the problems of GoT). Thing is, it could have shown the desperation from Eowyn's perspective, then that Horn call could have been THEODEN's arrival with his men or even EOMER and HIS men arriving if Theoden was already there. Then still had the reinforcements at the end of the battle. Truer to the books by far and STILL showing the deperation, then hope, then hard fighting, then victory. Far better imo.

Do you have any plans to continue the Greek Mythology videos? I feel like they were a good branch to explore for your channel

I’m still confused as to how they knew that Rohan was at helms deep, was a rider sent out to the elves, or did the elves already know that the enemy would attack there?? If you could answer this question that would be awesome, it’s really really bugging me.

well, the reasons of Peter Jackson sounds pretty legit. I liked the arrival of the elves, it shown the unity of the Free Peoples, that all races were actually acting against the Darkness, not just humans (even if i think they could have mentionned that the lands of Dwarves and Elves were also seriously threatened by Sauron and that's why they don't send help), the noble spirit of the elves who choose to help despite having the possibility to escape the literal world. It also kind of highlight Galadriel wisdom or prescience as she send her troops right where and when they would be needed the most.

i find the elves showing up to help them fight, fit the story of the movie quite well. it was portrayed in the movies that the army of rohan left due to the madness of the king. so the elves served as a buffer to buy time for the roherem to return to helms deep. it even serves to highlight how bad ass the humans are, as the men and elves are fighting to hold off the enemy until the riders of rohan return. implying it is the riders who are the elite force who will save the day.

IMO, I didn't like the elves at Helm's deep because their lands were under attack as well and where did they pass? Isengard is pretty close by. Legolas seems like the only elf with agility and skill the others were running into spears and all 😑. IMO I think it was more a case of what more can we to do with the actress Liv than the character Arwen.

I loved the way they did it in the movie. I wish that's how it would have been in the book, because it would draw attention to how important it is for the good races to draw together and support each other in times of crisis.

Didn't mind the elves terribly, but that snowboarding/skateboarding down the stairs scene was just stupid.

Adding the elves to the Battle of the Hornburg was one of the worst changes Peter Jackson made to the story of the Lord Of The Rings. They didn't belong there, and it ruined the meaning behind the battle.

I like the addition of elves, but I dislike how feeble the movie made Rohan seem. 300 is pitiful compared to the canon amount. When I first saw the movie I wondered why 10k was even sent to deal with such a helpless force when it could have used the time to hunt down the actual soldiers of Rohan. Elves were fine though. It showed their alliance with humans, their strength, and their willingness to fight evil. Tolkien's works convey that more broadly, but the film needed to show it directly. Otherwise I think most people would assume elves betrayed humans when they didn't.

Haldir's fate was never know in books or appendix. Personally, I would agree with having Haldir and his soldiers choosing their glorious battle alongside men over leaving Middle Earth to its dark fate

My only issue with the elves being present is that they just disappear. What happened to them? Jackson didn’t think that through because it goes against what Tolkien wrote. Yeah, it was cool when they showed up, but they just disappear after it shows a few get killed

We should be thankful to witness Men, Elves and Dwarves fighting together in the third Hobbit Movie.

Ive always enjoyed the few moments in the films where we see the elves as it makes them not as mysterious and shows that they too are vulnerable and not just invincable so i do feel that adding them and not the grey company was a good choice but moreso that i just like the elves overall

i liked that the elves came to fight, it brought the weight of the situation to have immortal* beings come and sacrifice their lives for mortal men

I didn’t like the elves arriving at Helms Deep. I thought they should follow the book. The scene of them arriving is great. How come non of the elves survived the battle?

The elves never showed up, but thecompany of Aragorn the other rngers of the north, did arrive/

It was fine.

Not all of Arwen was cut out of Helm's Deep. If you know where to look so you can see someone with black hair, a white horse and a curved sword in the background of the Rohirrim arriving and crashing into the Uruks.

I guess my biggest problem with this inclusion is that anyone who is up on thier Tolkien lore, would know that at the time of Helm's deep the elves of Lorien were arming up for thier OWN battles (plural) with the forces of Sauron. Lorien, suffered three seperate battles before thier final victory on the same day as the battle of Pellinore. So, sending a legion of thier fighters to Helms deep was nonsensical. Maybe the movie makers could have made more of the Hurons who cleaned up after the battle. P.S. as regards Arwen. I'm one who was put out by the exclusion of Glorfindal. Not to mention the actions of his horse, Asfoloth in the race against the the Nasguhl to save Frodo. How cool would it be to see that shining elf Hero of Tolkien's legendarium, charging at the Nasguhl, on foot, driving them into the river? Or healing Frodo enough to keep him alive for the rescue. Yes, Arwen had her own strength and bravery, but she was NOT a sword wielding warrior woman. Leave that to Eowin. Nothing fiercer than a woman scorned! lol!

See I get your point on it being the valor of men. However I feel like the elves being there makes sense. Because then return of the king is where they really show the bravery, sacrifice, honor and valor of men.

Well, about the Elves fighting alongside the People of Rohan, even though I liked that chance in Tolkien's canon, technically they should've came from Rivendell instead of Lothlorien, because Lothlorien was too busy fighting its own battles against the Orcs of Dol Guldur to send the reinforcements to aid Rohan, but that would've directly included Arwen (or Glorfindel if he'd been in the movies) leading that force and battling in the Helm's Deep. I also liked you saying that Peter Jackson wanted to show by including an army of the Elves n the battle that all the other races, not just men, were fighting with everything they had against the forces of evil. And let's not forget that in the extended edition of Return of the King, Legolas briefly mentions the Battle of Mirkwood and the Battle of Dale when Rohirrim is departing from Edoras. But I think that Peter Jackson did a good work in describing the dire and hopeless situation of the Helm's Deep with only 300-400 soldiers, farmers, elders and boys vs 10,000 monstrous Uruk-Hai before the Elves slightly lightened the mood. In Tolkien's work, 2,000 soldiers of Rohan against 10,000 Uruk-Hai, wild-men, Orcs and Wargs doesn't sound as dire and hopeless as it does in the movies but the book plot of the battle is still epic.

It made the Uruks seem stronger, and show that the Elves have fallen in power since the old days

I wish I could forget the trilogy just to watch it again for the first time.