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Catelyn didn’t follow the orders that Ned gave her in Kingslanding. For example: keeping an eye on Theon, go to Winterfell and getting prepared for any attack. She instead did all the contrary, which made the game more difficult for Ned, so it was part fault of Cat.
He wasn’t stupid IMO, he was just extremely unlucky and made a few bad decisions. Like what were the odds that you’re best friend, who always hunts, (who also was accompanied by Barristan the freakin bold) would die right as you have some of the most important information you could ever tell him. Lol that’s just bad luck
I don't think it was as much bad luck on "timing" as much as Ned knew he could not trust Robert to not kill all of Cersei's children (for not being rightfully Robert's heir). Ned was continually upset with Robert for allowing the Lannister's to kill Oberyn's sister and her children when they usurped the Mad King and this wedge continued to magnify as Robert discussed killing the remaining child Targaryan Dany.
Ned was with little resources and option and he knew the perils he was in. That is why he needed her wife to follow her and bring the fight to a battlefield where they can win.. Cat put him on a losing situation the moment he went for the imp... Even with all that failures, he can still win as long as the King returns with his life.. but alas..
Political Intrigue really isn't Ned's strong suit, but even so I wouldn't call his actions in King's Landing "stupid". He got attacked by Jaime because Catelyn arrested Tyrion, he quite likely would've come out on top in the end if the boar didn't kill Robert (and this was not a guarantee). This is a combination of someone else screwing things up and bad luck. And then we have Sansa telling Cersei that they were leaving . . . this is what prevented him and his family from escaping and sealed his fate. He would have gotten back to Winterfell and led the war against the Lannister's, and his successes in Robert's Rebellion tell us that he was a capable commander. edit: I didn't even remember this but you're totally right. Yeah, he gave Catelyn a bunch of instructions and she literally just ignored them.
I checked with some of the other HBO characters in leadership roles; Tony Soprano, Al Swearingen and Pope Pius XII all agreed that Ned's conversation with Cersei was a big mistake.
Lmao in hindsight of what happens yes, but in the situation Ned did not really need to worry he was trying to save her children because Robert being alive meant her death there was no way around it. Cersei suggests this later in her pov chapter's. Rober dying was something that was super unlucky for Ned. Like who would have thought he would die while hunting something he has done a thousand times sometimes even drunk.
Ned had his wife and daughter act against his interest, Cat didn’t secure the north as Ned told her to do which ultimately led the fall of house Stark and Sansa running to Cersei to tell her all Ned was planning to do and getting her self to be manipulated and kept as a hostage against her own father, so Ned was done before even Cersei met him in the godswood
He should've talked to Lysa first about her letter instead of just taking it at face value and he shouldn't have brought his kids along on a murder investigation to where he knows is a dangerous place. Everything else was Sansa's and Cat's fault.
This is true, but I would argue he didn't have time to talk to Lysa and not taking his children would be very suspicous already because Sansa is supposed to marry Joff. With Arya he definently should not have brought her, but Sansa it would be hard to not bring her.
Ned’s case is just him being super unlucky. Now yes, I guess he shouldn’t have trusted him by the end, but he didn’t have many options after Robert died. And as for him telling Cersei I agree with you 100% in the he had no idea Robert was gonna die. Like yes, I guess he technically didn’t have to tell her but he knows what happened last time to the children of Ellis’s and didn’t want a repeat. And even if Cersei didn’t listen to him and Robert lived, he could wipe his hands clean and I’m good conscience say he did all he could and gave Cersei a chance. And with him still being the hand he could possibly sway Robert in at least sparing at least 1 of the 3 children
Roberts death is irrelevant. The moment he realized they weren't actually Roberts children. He should've held that until he talked to either Robert, Stannis or Renley. Literally nobody else could trusted with that information before them. That isn't based on what ended up happening to Ned. That's based on common sense of the unpredictable reaction to that info coming out.
You have a beautiful edition of the book, I would like an edition like that, but I would first see if the books are published before spending a lot of money.
It was definitely stupid to not get his family out of King's Landing BEFORE he had his meeting with Cersei in the godswood Giving an ultimatum like "I am going to reveal a secret that will destroy your family and marriage, then possibly cause a succession crisis", then just hoping it would all turn out ok... He totally underestimated how far Cersei would go, but he had every reason to expect her violent/cunning retribution, given the seriousness of his revelations.
Yeah I get what you are saying about his family and he definently should have, but the thing is what could cersei do. At this point of the story all Ned had to do was tell Robert the truth and her head would be on a spike. Cersei got extremely lucky that Robert missed one thrust on a boar something he had never done on thousands of hunting trips.Ned had every right to feel like he was in the winning position which he was. Cersei later admits this in a pov chapter. Ned got extremely unlucky and maybe he should have kept his findings to himself, but at this point he was trying to save her children.
@@TheGreaseGoblins Yeah without Robert's death Cersei would not have been able to make her power grab, the whole series of events would have been different for sure. Without Robert's death she would still have to attempt to stop Ned or run away, with pressure building I can't see a timeline where Cersei didn't attempt some move against Ned. Perhaps she would try to have him assassinated, rather than going through official channels like in the dead Robert timeline. She still has access to vast wealth, loyal men and connections. Ned shouldn't have seen everything coming in advance, exactly how it happened, but must have known that Cersei could either follow his advice or take violent action. Even if he thought it unlikely, he should have accounted for the possibility for sure. I think he was more naive rather than stupid, that would be more fair.
The Robert-didn't-die timeline's Ned is assassinated by Cersei's cat paw burning down the tower of the hand in the dead of night. That's my head cannon now it's too appropriate
Ned wasnt dumb he was slowly adapting to situation and had robert not died the way he did its more likely he would be alive right now. but the problem with ned is that unlike everyone else in kings landing is his arrogance and lacks the foresight. Ned main problem was his support for stannis to become king. that one decision alienate him from his main allies in renly and little finger because they both knew stannis would bring war and a bloody rule. even if littlefinger was able to buy the gold cloaks for neds side ned would still had to deal with both renly and tywin army.
Ned wasn’t necessarily stupid, although naive and stupid are basically the same thing, his big problem was he assumed too much, and put way too much faith in the honor of others, he assumed Cersei would just flee, he assumed Robert wouldn’t die when he did (can’t blame him for that one) he assumed he could trust little finger because Cat vouched for him which seems very odd considering little finger fought a duel with Ned’s older brother for Cats hand, surely Cat told Ned about Petyrs lifelong obsession with her, Ned trusting him with his plans to hire the gold cloaks and take Cersei and her children into custody thus gambling everything that he could trust Petyr solely on Cats word, was all very misplaced. The smart thing for Ned to do is get Sansa and Arya out of KL, go to Dragonstone himself to meet with Stannis who also suspected the truth about Cersei and Jaime thus giving Ned more credibility when he brings the information to Robert, having Ned and Stannis together with a host of men loyal to them would have prevented them being captured like Ned was in KL, assuming Robert believed them, Cersei would be killed, Jaime would be sentenced to death. Joffrey, Tommen and Marcela are spared because unlike Rhaegars children they represent no threat to Robert’s throne since they have no Baratheon blood, the war with the Lannisters begins but this time they fight alone against the realm, house Tyrell doesn’t get involved, with Robert still alive Renlys attempt to cease the throne never happens, Stannis becomes the heir, Ned’s still alive and most likely Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, and maybe Kevan and Tyrion die, the realm would’ve been better off
Personally Ned should have did what rely did and get the heck out of king’s landing. Plus the city watch was already bought by Cersei . So get out of there. Little finger never trusted so don’t trust him with getting the city watch. Just leave and send ravens that you’re escaping so you get help
I wouldn't say Ned was stupid, however there was a common trend in the Stark family of two big errors, trusting the wrong people and not making sure those around or subordinate had all the information. I feel these same things would perhaps unresolved resurface in Robb and Jon. Ned was kind of acting in secret, he had guards and men from the North and he should have made sure they were all 100% on the same page as him. A good leader has to trust those under him to not only carry out what has been delegated to them, but to trust them with your life and this Ned could not do. I don't feel that Robb properly had enough time to know his men before going to war. Him having a better relationship with Rickard Karstark and Roose Bolton could have saved time and lives. And although technically people could accuse Edmure of disobeying, but here Robb did the same as Ned he left and didn't give crystal clear instructions which were to be followed to the letter. The pattern also is there as I mentioned with Jon (more show than books), but still when he was made Lord Commander did he know those who would betray him and did he give clear precise order? No. Jon knew the nature of Thorne and those who supported. The problem here is that Ned is honor and duty bound and really true honor is rare in Westeros. Yes Ned was in bad situation and there was a huge gamble that Cersei was taking and this gamble did go in her favor. How can a good leader maintain order if he doesn't have good reliable information and the trust and loyalty of his men? In the real world very often the person on top often has many talks with their inner circle to make sure their all together. If anything it gives them an opportunity to know if the people closest to them can be trusted. Ned trusted Littledfinger who was not a trustworthy or an honest man. Littlefinger betrayed him and even though other things happened it cost Ned his life. Would it have been so bad for Ned's honor if he went along with Renly's plan to place Cersei and the children under arrest? I would have done that. The moral of the story, DO YOUR HOMEWORK!
I strongly disagree ned was stupid he wasn't even playing the game of thrones he tried to operate the same way he did in the north which does not work in the south everyone on that small counsel had tricks he was not prepared for such a high level of deception and in the end it cost him his life on top giving up far too many of his own household guards I could write a entire book on how dumb he was
So I get it that he wasnt playing the game of thrones really, but he didn't want to Ned was preparing for a war he wanted to play the game on his terms and what he was best at being a military leader. He says multiple times he doesn't have the spy network or anything like that. Catelyn literally goes against everything he tells her to do. Plus, Ned gets super unlucky with Robert dying right then and there if he comes back from the hunt Cersei is screwed she literally says that later in pov chapters. Also, the only reason he even partially trusts littlefinger is bc of Cat. Also, up to this point Littlefinger has given Ned no reason not to trust him. You have your wife telling you to trust him and littlefinger has made himself useful. Also, ned sending his guard doesn't really matter if Cersei buys the gold cloaks like she does they still outnumber his guard over 10-1.
He should have stayed in the north he had no real power in King's landing so doing things his way was impossible knowing who was surrounding him at all times plus spying on him doing the same things that got Jon arryn killed my statement still stands everything he did was dumb in my opinion and many other fans
@@robertsmiley2207 That's fair he should have stayed in the north and I agree with that, but Cat and Luwin kind of double team into going south. Also, that is a fair statement as well, I just have a different thought process on Ned as a character. It is totally justified to think he was dumb
I believe he does know. He just doesn't want to play them, and would rather go to his strengths like actual war. He and multiple characters around him reference the game quite a bit.
Ned wasn't stupid. He was ignorant of how much he was a condescending prick to everyone and he was over confident in his actions. The book gives him bad omens and warnings from other characters the entire book. He doesn't listen to anyone. Even his enemies give him good advice. Ned was warned about Robert being killed by the Lannisters from Varys. He didn't ally with Renly or Loras because he looked down upon them and thought they were dishonorable. He actually counted on them sticking around even after slighting them and setting up the city watch coup with Littlefinger. He realized Renly fled in the night just before they head off to secure Geoffrey. Ned is a dead man from the moment the raven brings news of Robert coming to Winterfel.
ned thought he didnt need renly because he was stupid. he thought he would be able to pretty much insure that all of the council members lost their jobs (and power) by bringing in stannis and noone was going to stop him while stannis wasnt anywhere near the city to help him hold onto power. he absolutely didnt think through his plan he either should have followed little finger and renlys plan to seize joffrey, or did what renly did and steal away in the night without telling his gullible innocent stupid daughter about his plans
Just clicked on your thing here and before watching it, let me answer the question from the thumbnail: YES & NO Because I wouldn't say stupid, but naive in some cases and he trusted the wrong people. (Catelyn, LF) His only mistakes in my opinion were that mountain thing and not sending his children away immediately Interested, what your answer will be and the reasoning...
@@TheGreaseGoblins yes! Liked it pretty much! Forgot to edit.. Totally agree with your points on Catlyn's mistakes. Just found your channel the other day and it's great! Already subbed
Ned wasn't stupid. He had successfully ruled the entire North (which is roughly half of all of Westeros) without problems, leaving them in a better place than when he got there and being respected and loved by almost all of the North. He wasn't good at the politics of the South that involved lying, manipulation and subterfuge. Those weren't his strengths. He did make a few questionable choices and was EXTREMELY unlucky with how events played out. He wasn't a good 'player', but that had nothing to do with his intellect. Him trying to do the right thing also blew up in his face every time in unpredictable ways. OK, on to the vid.
Agreed with pretty much everything you said, and yeah I think I came off as if I thought Ned was a good player of the game. I was trying to convey that Ned wasn't the best, but he was definently competent by trying to avoid the game all together because he knew it wasn't his strength, and that he just got super unlucky with certain things.
Ned Stark wasn't stupid. He had a high sense of morality and stayed true to it. In a game played by vile people, his moral constraints put him at a great disadvantage, especially if one considers that unlike Ned, the other players were well used to how things worked in King's Landing. Unlike many other characters who are deemed as intelligent, I believe that Ned would have been a good administrator. Could you say the same about characters that are considered smart because are good at intrigues? For instance, Littlefinger is smart, but as Master of Coin, he brought the country to bankrupcy. Varys was a good spymaster, but would he be able to rule? I doubt it. The only well-rounded characters in the show were Tywin, Doran Martell, Olenna, perhaps Kevan Lannister from the books. All the others had some kind of flaw that hindered them or got them killed.
