Wata LAWSUIT UPDATE and Game Population Reports Released 

i agree if im going to trust this report at all it needs pending counts next to graded games

Does it even matter? I think no matter what, you will find a way to make it a negative. Why is it when an NWC gray cart sells for 5-6 figures, its ok, or “makes sense”. Theres close to 90 of those known to exist.. (and you own one, right?).

Well said. Nobody knows what’s really inside a ‘sealed’ game because you’d have to break the holy seal to do it. This whole sealed, the cellophane is the value stuff is just crazy in my book. I hope someday in a future apocalypse some sap will unseal their $1,000,000.00 Mario 64 and find a block of wood, just before the asteroid hits Earth. 🌏☄️

Excellent point, very well said! To that point, when CGC grades comic books, they grade the whole book. To this point, when books are sent in that came in sealed bags (like the Death of Superman), CGC removes the book from the sealed bag and just grades the book.

I think with the comic book the grade is the is the comic itself not the bag. But I do understand you're point.

You think you cant tell when a disk is loose in the case? It actually does affect the grade

@@Dire_Hit- Not a problem. Just unwrap it, clip the disc back into the holder, and re-shrink wrap it. A true Collectionist would never even notice. 💿

Probably won't be as high now but I doubt it would be decent.

Probably won't be as high now but I doubt it would be decent.

I hope not. I want prices to go so high only 1% of the population can afford them.

Yeah, people paying 5-6 figures for video games, can afford to do so. Lolol

Yeah, and too often are those settlements covered in NDAs. Hopefully some criminal charges will be pursued by the authorities as well.

True, I never liked Tommy Tallarico. I'm a small time RU-vidr and I blocked him. He wanted me to do a spot or something on my show. He wanted me to read something or something dumb.i said h3!! no, no funny business.

No one got scammed. Paying that much money for sealed games without population reports is ALL ON THE BUYER. When you see the clear wrap as more valuable than the game it’s a sad sad sad state of retro video game collecting

Yeah and then the naysayers are like but cause you were late to it or don't understand... its like or its stupid especially since they graded things that have mold lol its like why bother

a certified grading cellophane moment

Wata great pun!

They aren't accurate at all, but it'll show at least the # of units sent in to be graded. There's people who have cases of games, unopened so still in the cardboard box that HOLDS multiple copies of whatever game inside. Heck, just Nintendo/Sega/Sony/Microsoft (if they still have the numbers) releasing the # of units made of every skew of a game would throw the evaluations down the toilet.

That's an issue with coins as well, but is generally not seen as a concern from collectors. For the super rare, where having duplicate could mess up the population (like 6 coins becoming 15 in the pop report), each individual is usually known, photographed and accounted for. For midrange coins, like 1,000 known, having the population become 1,100 from crackouts has less impact.

I actually don’t think it was either the Reddit post or the signature auction, it was more likely the fact that these reports (in a much more robust format than we actually got) were promised for Q1 and WATA felt it needed to do something before we got too much farther into Q2. I don’t think WATA is that obsessed with any one auction, given how many there are these days. I also agree that the disturbing part of the data is not so much that the populations are high-I have always felt that the populations are actually quite *low*, and the real issue is that demand is not rising as fast as one might like to see or expect to see in a healthy and organically growing market-but rather that there are certain games for all systems that clearly exist in factory case packs when you look at the grade breakdowns. It actually is a bit of a scandal that those games continue to go for high prices when the data is now telling us that factory fresh copies almost certainly exist in very large quantities across the country. I hope that someone will do a list at some point of the games that buyers should avoid because they are clearly leaking into the market at a deliberate pace but have no native long-term value (because there will not be any condition premium in the long term). I think there is a lot to be upset about with respect to sealed and graded games-which I collect-and honestly I’m not sure that either the haters or the fans of this sphere ever do a *fully* robust job of breaking down exactly all the things that are truly troubling. Some of those things don’t even have to do with WATA, and have more to do with how crappy people get when money comes into play. You have mentioned the bad behavior of sealed-game sellers on eBay, Greg, and that to me is almost more representative of the sort of general seediness and desperation for that one additional dollar that sometimes feels like it seeps into everything having to do with sealed and graded games, WATA’s treatment of its customers being just one example. Some of the sense of fun and community has definitely drained away due to the sense many have that a shrewd investor can make a killing in this sphere.

@@SethAbramson always appreciate you chiming in, Seth!

@@GetTheGreg, the one thing I would say is look on the bright side: we are hearing less and less, from any quarter, that complete red herring about games being “meant to be played.” I always found that line of reasoning so preposterous, because it is usually uttered by individuals who collect game boxes and game manuals and not just cartridges (meaning, people who are CIB collectors). If games were meant to be played, there is no reason to own anything but loose carts-the only part of a game release you can play, and the one part of this market that has basically remained *untouched* by the sealed and graded game phenomenon, meaning no actual hardcore gamer really has anything to complain about with respect to WATA or VGA. Hell, for the oldest systems emulation is now so common that I don’t think we should ever hear “games were meant to be played” from anyone anywhere, as every game is available to be played all the time at the click of a button. As you have rightly pointed out, Greg, the allegation that sealed and graded collecting is taking games out of circulation is just laughably disingenuous. This is why I appreciate the skepticism of Pat and Ian, as even when I do not agree with all of it I do not think it is purely rhetorical or made in bad faith but simply questioning whether sealed and graded games are worth what people pay for them. And hey, that is a fair question to ask! But it would also be reasonable to say that ultimately the market decides this.

@@SethAbramson absolutely haha. "Games are meant to be played" is becoming a bit of a meme in itself. I doubt the animosity towards the higher end market will ever fully dissipate, though. WATA has become a catch-all term for all sealed games and it's lame. The Karl video was around a year ago now, surely the people still buying at these prices are well aware of everything that has taken place, no? The vast majority? in my opinion, it's ignorant to continue to completely discredit that any organic interest and price action exists. We are getting closer to being the same as comics, cards, coins, etc, which all have their amounts of organic collectors and heavy speculators, as well as blatant price manipulation taking place at all times. Not that it's "good", but video games aren't special in this regard. And I have no problem with people saying games shouldn't be worth X amount or should be worth X, but it's also *really* nice when those comments are backed up by anything of substance. Without any kind of relativity analysis, it just sounds the same as someone on Reddit saying no used game should cost more than MSRP. What *should* a sealed OOT be worth then if not 5 figures? Would $7000 be more justifiable? Pat and Ian are presenting this like it should be a $1000 game in high grade, which has no bearing on reality and only plays to emotion. Just some more thoughts on it all haha.

@@GetTheGreg, I am with you on this and would even take it farther: we are dealing with grown adults making financial decisions knowing both what they do know and also (equally) what they probably should be told but have not been told. I think we can all agree that more data should be available, but you are also right that basically everyone in the market now knows what data is and is not available and is deciding to proceed or not proceed on that basis. What I would say to Pat and Ian is that at some point we just have to let grown adults make their own mistakes. If there were actual downstream effects on loose carts, I would feel really bad because it could affect the ability of people to play games on the original hardware. But there is no such shortage (nor has the change in loose cart prices, if any, been in any way significant or influential) and therefore the sealed and graded community should basically just be ignored by anyone who does not want to be part of it. The argument that this type of collecting is hurting anyone else no longer holds any water.

My guess would be less than zero.

Man 102 sealed copies got graded by WATA is not rare lol talk about comic books or trading cards, theres thousands graded of each, the video game market is nothing compared to the other hobbies,but yet 102 sealed is not rare 😂

The highest I’ve ever heard mentioned is 9.6 or maybe a 9.8. I guess you’d have to travel back in time and stand at the end of a video game production line to get a perfect 10. 💫

@@richterbelmont5506- A 10/10? Wonderful. Nothing I like more than a perfectly preserved cellophane shrink wrap. Don’t suppose you know any other details about this particular game? 💸💸💸

@@richterbelmont5506- My internet’s down right now. What game was it? 🕹

@@richterbelmont5506- Thanks for all the sketchy details. I put very little value in cellophane shrink wrap anyway so the whole thing’s not worth my time to go down that particular rabbit hole. Keep up the good work. 🐰

@@richterbelmont5506- The Commodore 64 was an odd duck anyway. I preferred the Nintendo 64. 🕹

LOL!

Every grading company is like that. Comic book and card collectors are doing that for decades. In comics, they even have a process called pressing. They basically iron out the book to remove creases in hopes of getting better grades. The grading company themselves offers that service.

@@0b5qRa This isn't even about trying to make an item look better, but rather that WATA could be rather random about the grades it issued. The immediately visibly evident examples were how WATA graded the factory seal, as shrinkwrap damage is easy to see even in posted photos, and WATA had actually published a pretty straightforward guide to its seal ratings. Despite it being pretty straightforward, there were a number of graded game images online where WATA had clearly rated the seal condition as sometimes several ranks above what their own published guidelines stated as the maximum for that kind of condition.

@@BainesMkII Card and comic book grading companies can be inconsistent too. Some people crack open graded cards and comics if they think it could get higher grade if they send it again for grading. The visible tear or damage on WATA graded games is a different topic.

The games themselves are COMMON -- state or not is a false equivalency. But even sealed, they are far less common than items with a price equivalency like Golden Age comics.

@@PatTheNESpunk How is that a false equivalency? There is tons of liquid water on earth but far less frozen. Frozen water is different than liquid. And while you are right about comic books, a better comparison would be Pokemon cards or something else from the 80s or 90s. There are literally tens of thousands of high grade Pokemon cards and they routinely sell for thousands of dollars. You’ve seen the populations reports, theres’ not a single game that is above 300 count, most are either at or below 100. Are there more VGAs out there? Sure. Even more that are ungraded? Absolutely. But sealed games are not common. They just aren’t. And humans decide if they are worth something. Personally, I would never pay above MSRP for any video game “thing”. It’s silly imo. Again, I’m not going to bat for these people. I just don’t agree with saying sealed games are common. Trying to lump them into the same category as CiB or loose is disingenuousness. Sealed retro games have always cost more because, well, they were less common. The thing that changed was market manipulation, which is bs. I’m not sure why you are fighting this so hard though. Seems like an odd hill to die on.

"There are tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands that would absolutely kill for that game sealed" - a complete bullshit statement

@@TravisSurtr hundreds of thousands might have been a stretch, lol, but I definitely think ten thousand plus people wanting that isn't a stretch at all

@@jeremynoe1591 how many of those 10k would be willing and able to spend >$200 on it?

@@johnmickey5017 well over $200 would be pretty simple to see people would be willing to pay that as ocarina of time sealed has been worth over $200 before WATA was even around. I think the bigger question is how many would be willing to pay over $2000 on it, which would be obviously much less of those people but I also don't see the supply being able to fully cover demand even still. Could I be wrong? Sure but I also know being a Zelda collector for around a decade and seeing just how many more people out there are like me from different groups and stuff that Zelda collectors don't mind dropping some big money for their collection.

It's addressed at 19:50