You're killing this RU-vid stuff lately man! I confess, I originally only subbed because Cleeter told me to, and I didn't think some engine builder non-RU-vidr guy would actually get my clicks. But now I'm watching every video start to finish! You're really hitting a sweet spot between the ubiquitous fab and machining content and car guy stuff, bridging the two in your own unique way! Keep up the fine work, the Cleetus bump was well deserved.
Agreed! But the only reason i didnt sub before hand is because ive never head of this channel. What a gem. This channel, I Do Cars and Austin Neimela have had me hooked!
To me at least, I enjoy watching people who are passionate about their craft, work on that craft. Cleet seems to find the best along the way, which is awesome. KSR, Brent, Steve, on and on. All masters at their chosen field.
Mr. Morris has never made a "boring" video. Id watch him read the encyclopedia Britannica if he would glance up at the camera every few minutes and say "horsepower" or "boost". 😂
You could try a Y-pipe off the air inlet and run 2 filters on either side. That area looks a little tight for the size of filter you need on that monster.
It's just for street driving it be ok. Would have to run 5 inch pipe to flow the air and 5 inch bends are hard to come by and $$$$. But I know what you saying.
Theoretically yes but as racecitypatroit said it's not really a problem, doubt the owner needs that extra 400 hp while transiting in a drag and drive on public roads.
I’m sure someone will say the back pressure creates torque but in reality the reason the exhaust picks up power scavenging through different pipe lengths. Adding header collector extensions can do the same thing and keep your hp also.
Steve not one of your true fans will ever say this video is BORING I personally love how you show and teach things in your videos i know i have learned a lot of stuff just from watching them keep up all the great videos we really do appreciate the time you put into these as if you dont have alot going on running a machine shop !💯🎉🥳🍾
"Before you checkout, this video looks boring" said nobody when it comes to Steve Morris Engines and their video content. Love your work as always Steve, thanks for sharing with us.
@@thor82ak right I was just explaining why it wasn’t a difference. The exhaust isn’t a restriction with the filter on. Because the engine isn’t pumping enough air for the exhaust to even be a restriction.
The exhaust restriction doesn’t hurt as much since the engine can easily produce the pressure to push out the exhaust. With the intake you’re limited on how hard you can pull in air. So, a small intake restriction can make a bigger difference in power.
I just wonder if Steve already knew all that. I haven’t built any 4500hp motors so I don’t feel comfortable trying to tell him how to do something. But maybe you are ahead of him and build 6000hp street engines. I dunno 🤷♂️
Exhaust makes super big difference in boosted cars when making big hp. there can be like 10% gains or more by increasing from 3 inch to 3.5 inch in 700-800 hp range this with about 3liter 6cyl engine. enough backpressure and it makes impossible to get more hp or boostpressure. intake, exhaust both can be total bottleneck
Cough cough.......Exhaust valves 🙊🙊🙊 Intake limited by cubic capacity air volume per Ignition cycle Naturally Aspirated and Turbocharged/Supercharged all have intake and exhaust valves to start/stop Pressure for engine cycle So Flow restrictions are created by manufacturers for Economical issues in Exhaust systems
@@Turbogto_guy No he said his m8 made the exhaust Half manifold size = Pressure remains the same. *Must for Combustion cycle* Flow(speed air) is more due to half manifold size restricting exhaust Creating Back Pressure improving Torque
Man the cage in that car looks sketchy at best. Bubble gum welds mean metal is just stuck outside the tube and not penetrated. With an engine that caliber I'd reconsider the chassis
@@skippysvr4586 I've done a cage in a 3000GT and it is not easy especially if your trying to maintain most of the interior trim panels. You have to get your angles just right and tuck everything as far in as possible. I remember we wanted to do gusset plates between the A-pillars and the A-pillar bars but they were just too close.
Oooof yea hope he doesn’t put that thing into the wall, cage isn’t going to hold up well. 😂. Looks like your typical low amperage booger welded mig job. Probably a home job if I had to guess. Rough though. If it looks that bad painted what’s it look like under that 😮
You must be a welder to pick that up. I’m a welder and have a bad habit of looking at every weld I see that’s good old mig caterpillars all over that thing lol glad I’m not the only one that noticed
Good to see Ya Steve Nice little Hotrod Amazing the power loss between filter n exhaust Quick story Had a Hondo Flat-bottom with a Mondello built 40over 455 with thru transom exhaust A great turn key 65mph Ski boat Took it out Started running bad Brought it home Changed plugs n wires Still run'n bad Check this n that Traced out wiring harness Pulled a compression check Fuel was fresh Changed HEI distributor and coil No change Pulled the motor Thought the cam went Changed cam Old one looked fine Dropped the motor back in Had thru transom exhaust Could hear motor laboring on the right bank Had about 2ft of 3" reinforced rubber hose between the exhaust manifold and transom Just for the heck of it decided to change the exhaust hoses Pulled the old out Something looked funny inside The right side 3" exhaust hose had delaminated inside Even with water thru the exhaust the inside of hose would blister when the hose warmed from exhaust heat Caused significant back pressure Couldn't believe it All that work Hard learned lesson
The more I see exhaust test videos the more I believe that as long as you have a collector on the header it doesn’t really matter what you do, the window for making power is pretty big. Header bash, full exhaust, mufflers, bends, diameter, unless you are intentionally trying to lose power, you can’t mess it up to bad.
Being a turbo engine, as long as the exhaust restriction does not prevent the turbo getting up to max boost the peak HP should be almost the same. Power will closely relate to boost pressure and rpm on a given engine. The extra back pressure, as seen in the video, can also help low end torque by stopping excess cylinder charge from escaping out the exhaust ports. Results may vary engine to engine, depending on the cam used and the sizing of the turbo. Low exhaust restriction will allow the turbo to spool up faster which is good at launch on the drag strip. Excessive restriction may throttle the turbo so much that it cannot get to the nominated boost pressure. High exhaust pressures will also increase temperatures through the exhaust system which is not so good.
The thing people forget with air resistance is that it obeys a square law. That means if you double airspeed/flow you quadruple resistance. Air resistance or drag is the result of air hitting the object crating resistance. Now that might be the shell of a car moving the air out of the way so it can drive or it might be the structure of a filter which is squeezing air through tiny little holes. When you are working out the match it doesn't actually matter if its the air that's moving or the object so thee calculations for a stationary air filter are pretty much the same its always 0.5 x the drag coefficient of the object x cross sectional area of the object (perpendicular to direction of airflow.) x density of the air x the velocity of the air squared. That last bit is the real kicker here. The density, the cross section and the drag coefficient are all constants, its the speed of the air that fucks you up because its a square function. It sounds odd, 2x the speed 2x the resistance right but no, 2x the speed and the resistance goes up 4 times! Think about it for a moment though at it makes sense. 1. The air is trying to get past the obstruction twice as fast so is hitting things with twice as much energy. 2. If the air is going twice as fast it means you have twice the amount of air hitting it in any given period of time. So you have twice the amount of air hitting the object and its hitting with twice the amount of energy. 3x airspeed 9x resistance, 5 times the air speed and 25x the resistance. The faster you what the air to move past/through something the exponentially harder it gets.
Learned my lesson on air restriction a few years back . FYI, its not just on big hp boosted engines, lol. I built a cruiser with an ls3 long block , a small cam I speced out , a dual plane gmpp carb intake, and a fast ez efi TB . Plan was to build my 72 camaro to be able to cruise long range , but still outrun the new crop of pony cars . I expected to run high 11s w ac, ps, pb, overdrive trans , and 3.42 gears . I rigged up a cold air intake using a well known companies low profile bonnet . Went to my local track to test the cam setup because it was outside the norm for the gen 4 engine. Car fell in its face at 5400 rpms and ran 12.4 at 109 ! I was pretty upset to say the least. Long story short, I decided to change the cold air setup for a regular 14 inch breather . With no other changes , the car went 11.65 at 119 , and pulled hard past 7200rpms w a cam w only 220 at .050 intake duration ! I take great pains to make sure I don't restrict the intake side in any build I do now .
So freaking Happy to see your starting to be recognized for your awesomeness with engines and machinery.. God Bless Steve I got to watch you grow makes me so Happy!!!
Steve, that filter had a flat face, what about the pod filters with the inverted front cone that also let's air in. That amazed me that the car lost 400hp by installing a filter. Great video as usual, love the variety of content from week to week. Can't wait to see you send that Wagon on a 5 second pass. 👍👍
Look at it again. It has the inverted cone on the front, it is not flat and closed off. You can see it on the tool box behind him as he's explaining the weird rev up. You have to look close as he puts it on to see the cone as it's plastic for most of the front. It needs to be a much larger diameter since it's forcing the supercharger to pull the air from the sides vs just sucking in from the front.
Damn nice car! And it's refreshing to see a street driven caged car that actually has CAGE PADDING, drives me nuts seeing so many people drive around on the street with a cage without ANY kind of protection from it at all. Literally a fender bender could cause your death if your dome bounces off of solid steel cage. Cage padding is still meant to protect your helmeted head, it isn't exactly rated for your raw dome, but it's a hell of a lot better than headbutting a steel tube. What a cool street car, that looks like a fun combo! TBH, that exhaust seems OK for street use, with the side cut outs may not be an issue at all for cruising. I dig it!
I tried to explain air restriction to jet ski guys that use pre filter socks and they claim it doesn’t restrict air flow. ANY type of air filter will restrict air flow. It’s just a matter of balancing out how much you are willing to sacrifice in power to make sure you don’t suck something into the charger/turbo.
The bell would be more effective if it had more room to the radiator. The issue isn't the heat off the rad, it's the lack of space between the rad and the bell, which is why it ran a tiny bit harder without the bell. That air cleaner will be fine on the street, but the area of the element isn't anywhere near big enough to flow what's necessary for massive HP. What would be interesting is the AFR when the filter is in place. One other thing that would be interesting is that "cold air" setup with a couple bells on those intakes, unobstructed by the radiator.
Every 90° bend in piping is equivalent to ~5-7 feet of straight pipe.. give or take a little bit, depending on the material used, surface smoothness, and bend radius.. so it is very easy to make restrictive intake/exhaust.
I have been a big fan of K&N for over 40 years. That being said, the filter on the Nova is woefully undersized. I can imagine the suction was strong enough to pull oil out of the gauze filter media.
A larger filter would make an improvement but you'll never match the bell. Not a concern for street driving anyways, he still has double the power he needs for the highway portion with the restriction.
@@krusher74 No, it was more a question of the actual size of the filter. I only saw it end on and not upright. So I had no perspective of how long or round it actually was.
I had a Holden 308 that would crank over like it had no compression with the cast manifold and 2" dual system and a mild cam, but if I loosened the manifold clamps so it was about 3/16" lift to get it up against the taper, it was almost impossible to get it to crank over. Was essentially std apart from a mild Isky cam. Was interesting how much difference it made. Only motor I have has to be like that.
I would us a k&n kit for a descale truck cold air kit to feet it the filters are twice as big there made for tubes and it would draw the air from a cooler place . I have found a heat gun works wonders to reshape the plastic also.
You/he can get one of those big diesel air filters from Banks, and put a elbow from the procharger down and under the radiator, with the filter right under the radiator or pointing to the ground depending how much space there is, note as well he will make a lot of less power once he has the hood on the car and that engine is sucking all that hot air, it will be wiser to make that test as well with a fully warmed up engine and the hood on, then you can see how much power it dropped due to the hot air intake.
That filter is obviously limited by CFM. Not nearly enough sq in of surface area to filter the needed CFM for 1400hp. I could see that coming and was surprised it wasn't worse.
the way i see it is the filter flutes disrupt the swirl effect into the blower mouth.... the bell improves the swirl effect... i would run a extension and T setup utilising two filters out the sides
When the restriction is at the very entrance to the intake system, the absolute limit is atmospheric pressure to push air thru the filter. Even if the supercharger or turbo could pull a perfect vacuum on the back side of the filter. It can’t pull a perfect vacuum, so there’s actually much less than atmospheric pressure (~14 psi) across the filter.
I build a tt c5 vette that still had the stock mufflers on it, it picked up almost 200 rwhp installing electric cutouts. I see guys running big centrifugal blowers with tiny air filter on them all the time because cramped engine compartments, sometimes they will pick up 4 lbs of boost just taking the filter off.
OK you asked me 😂. The air turning 90° from the sides of the air filter causes a lot of stale air right in front of the turbskee blades. A curved funnel inside the air filter smoothing the airflow into the turbskee, I reckon would pull back 200hp. The bell is smoothing the air round the lip of the intake.
My guess is the muffler that far rearward does not affect horsepower or sound like many think. With that said, it also depends on the diameter of the pipes from the headers to the mufflers....
Steve as dumb as this may sound i never had someone to teach me about motors or anything mechanical. I'm not the only one on here I'm sure. Between work and a major lack of motivation for a long time plus the year of 2020, I lost my interest in working on my vehicles , but watching your videos it's sparked my interest again I appreciate you Steve. I don't have anything high horsepower but I am proud of my 02 durango and my 96 eclipse gs and my 97 gst. I had all but given up on my gst til I started watching your videos. I appreciate the content and knowledge Steve.
I love the video I always wondered what the difference would be in horsepower and torque with open headers vs close headers & Air filter vs no air filter and all that kind of stuff , basically all the difference is that can be from Street to strip , also the difference in ⛽' s too.... So Thanks Steve & staff... 💯👍🏼. 💕It
Air filters can be super restrictive when they are too small. Also cheap ones sometimes have a metal part on thr inside that can brake off and and go in your charger turbo or engine
Love the channel and seeing you adapt to the new format. Could you please explain what's happening on a pull when the car torques up & down? Rob from Canada
Imagine the driveshaft and rear axle/differential but without control arms fastening it to the chassis. The tires would roll forward and flip the axle underneath the car and snap the driveshaft in half. With proper control arm geometry for drag racing (upwards of 300% anti-squat), under power the axle will be forced frontward the chassis will be popped upward. The lower links are being compressed, causing the upper links to push the chassis upward.
Hey Steve. I run a vibrant air filter twice that size on my engine and it losses a little over 60 hp and 2-3 psi of boost. I have 422ci ls with f1a procharger and full exhaust on 93 octane pump gas. 860 hp to tire no filter and 800 hp with filter.
That was cool and interesting, with the different setups tried in direct comparisons. With the filter, though, I run bigger ones on N/A 2 litres. Depending on the packing constraints, it may be possible to fabricate a housing to slip over the blower intake that mounts a 14/16" NASCAR spec filter, maybe even doubled up, to get enough filter area it isn't too much of a restriction. Gale banks has some relevant and worth reading comments on filters - he tends to overspec' them, even with a mere 1000hp diesel. With the mufflers - remember, the primaries are only carrying exhaust gas maybe 180/720 degrees of crank rotation as an average peak flow, but the mufflers are flowing 2x720/720. How it's plumbed - which looks kinda twisty - sized, and most important the muffler design characteristics, are all going to affect the power/torque. There will always be a loss, but a re-map may bring some of it back. Easy enough to do when swapping over the cut-outs.
Thanks for the time again teaching us about these situations. Now that drag and drive are getting so popular this deals with those issues I’ve often wondered about for street driving these crazy engines.
This is just amazing technology for me. Currently I’m hot rodding my F150 Ecoboost 3.5. Exhaust, intake, is already on. Intercooler with improved hot and cold side pipes, is on the way. Goal is running E-30. (94 octane) Hoping for something close to 400HP, and 500 TQ. Oh Catch can also on the way. Thank You for helping push me forward.
Finally some Dyno Science!!!! It’s amazing how much performance is gained/lost at this horsepower. Would love to see a version of this for the Wagon SMX.
Probably just available surface area to cfm demand on the filter. Unless you already tested that style filter previously. Loosing 400 hp is a big deal and you definitely can feel that in the seat. Maybe he can fab a y style with two bigger filters for the street.
I like going back and rewatching videos because I find some new pieces of info I missed the first time because u stick so much good knowledge in these videos so thank u sir
Your videos are NEVER boring. You’ve become my favorite RU-vidr. Watch every video from start to end the same day they come out. Only creator I do that with. Thanks for all the great info.
When I first started learning about horsepower I had a mechanic tell me to just think of an engine as an air pump. The more air in and out the more power is possible.
The air filter surface area isn’t large enough to support the cfm demand of the engine, plus the solid top of the air filter needs to be further away from the blower entry, even on a small carb a distance of less than 3in’s from the filter top to the carb top will start to reduce airflow through the carb, I have tested this extensively on my flowbench, we both know that a flowbench won’t hold a candle to the amount of air being pulled through that blower, so the issue would be magnified significantly.
Yeah that filter looks miniscule for the power it makes without restriction... definitely needs a much larger filter, probably one of those Vibrant Bellmouth filters that are both large, and have a built-in stack/bell. I know some of the import guys run good mushroom style filters on their turbos, they also have a bellmouth inside(edit: a bellmouth built-in to the filter) , ones from like HKS and GReddy....but note, those are foam filters and not oiled cotton.
Most people put way too small of a filter on vehicles. Also those K&N style filters with the oil are even worse, they will start plugging much quicker when the oil starts getting fine dust in it.
I had a small filter like that on my turbo 2.0. The tuner said first thing we need to do is replace that filter. I replaced it with a 10 or 12" cone filter. Must of gave it some more cfm's by doing that.
I work with diesel generators and they need good air filters due to all the dirt they face on site. In a waaay lower horsepower engine than this one the air filter is like at least 10 times bigger than the actual size of this one. I’m not surprised that this one restricted the airflow so much.
I watched another show on here, where this guy who basically makes performance parts was showing a filter around the size of the you are using and the one he recomended for performance vechicles and it around 3-4xs as large it had way more surface area for the filter to suck in air with out restriction. sorta of looked like the ones on the big desil cummins trucks that have a turbo and huge stacks
Steve your one of the best engine builders out there so thank you for taking the time to show us how these monsters are built and the knowledge you share with us.
It's great watching you go through the trouble shooting process and come to a conclusion and a recommendation for your customers. You're a good man Steve 👍
LOL that exhaust. I never ran anything makes that much power, but anything over 450cu inches needs at least dual 3inch exhaust, even if they do not go above 6k RPM. And thats even with no mufflers. With an engine like that I can only imagine it needing dual 4inch pipes at a minimum.
Your channel is not boring. I and others look forward to watching them. Oh, got one of your shirts and it was very nice, and very good quality. Thank you.
Surprised you don't run an engine rpm pickup so you can see what the rpms are doing versus the wheel speed. I can only figure the hp jumps up at the end because that is where the converter starts to actually get efficient. Now you need to use one of the big chevy type large diameter filters mounted onto a bell plate to see what it will do. K&N 60-1641 with a 66-1601 top so it can pull air from the front.
If you need a filter on a turbo or supercharged engine try using a banks big ass filter yes that's what there called . there made for diesels running a turbo so there made to flow besides the filter can't tell or care if it's on gas engine or a diesel they just flow air
That little filter has a big flat top that probably blocks all the flow right in the center where you need it most. Its like the opposite of a velocity stack.
It appears that with the filter, you've added another restrictor type of "plate" that works against moving air, that is further complicated by the radiator. To bad it doesn't incorporate a below the radiator type of inlet for racing. Great work Steve.
That's why diesels have huge exhuast and huge filters to make turbo's efficient they got to have least restrictions verses superchargers are based on engine speed turbo's are based on air in and out 😮
i think the air filter restrictions the volume of air it could suck in i think a bigger filter length and width would actually increase horse power you’ll have to test that on various lengths and widths
What about a mesh turbo guard style filter? For keeping rocks out. Does the full exhaust being a bit restricted matter? Being that would be for street mode. 1000hp with the filter on would still be enough to wick the tyres on the street. Could also be a easy way of making it more street safe.
I knew that filter was gonna strangle the intake. Try as big a filter as you can fit/find and it's guaranteed to flow more. I've used APEXi cone filters and they are the best of the cone filters, but you can't beat a giant oval or round K&N filter with a custom base plate. They even have them where the top is a filter too, instead of using a top plate. I used the largest K&N universal oval filter on mine. Same one I saw fitted on a Roush Mustang.
That Fetzer Valve seems to be making a lot of noise. Needs some 3-in-1 oil. Everything is ball bearings these days, make sure they are lubricated properly.
Hi Mr Morris, maybe an elbow and a filter with flow rate closer to engine requirements, elbow would allow a lot lot larger filter, for what its worth, Cheers
If there is room to run a filter over the velocity stack, that test would be interesting. Might even be a filter on the market with velocity stack made into the base. Used to run a lot of turbo street cars with that set up. Even though I agree with everyone in the comments. That filter is just to small in this case. We ran huge conical filters on turbo 4cyl street cars. Some cold air set ups and others just pulling from under the hood. Always interesting to see tests like this.
Larger diameter filter with same size outlet should perform better. I wonder if you could design something that incorporates a bell and retest. Some real mythbusters stuff. In any case, great video! Super interesting
I would actually enjoy creating an intake/filter for that supercharger that robbed the least amount of horsepower for street use… that's the kind of goofy fab I like to do.
The air filter simply doesn't have enough overall area to move that amount of air. You need a much larger filtered area. Gale Banks has some decent insight on this. You could experiment, find out how much flow per pressure drop per square inch and then see how much filter area you need to be the least amount of restriction as possible. I saw somebody already suggested a Y-pipe and 2 filters...and this might work if the filters are large enough. But THAT filter will absolutely NOT be large enough, even with 2.
Interesting Steve. Many racers I've talked have said that there air filters and or exhaust didn't impact output. But in every case, I've asked if there were back to back tests, the answer is always no. "I didn't need to because I made great power as it was". Thanks for laying it out there. I might have to go and buy a hat.
Well, yeah. When you think about it a bit. The more powerful the engine is, the more air and fuel it needs to move. Which is why free flow of air is so important. And if the filter can't handle the volume of air necessary, choke, choke, choke, choke... On the other side, with the fuel, it'd be equivalent to taking a high power engine and putting tiny, low-flow fuel injectors in.
Thought provoking video . First that comes to mind is the filter is too small.( as well as location behind rad) . Probably on the right path with fresh air intake tubes. If you had the room it makes you wonder if a smaller bell inside a larger air filter would work (similar to the ones you can put on a Holley carb.). Thanks for the great video.
It would be interesting to see how an exhaust affects a turbo car, as everything Ive been taught about them is flow is better, right from the dump pipe. Given this application is a supercharged deal, it does make sense that it wouldnt restrict as much and makes torque gains from back pressure scavenging.
Procharger told me, they require a giant filter with good cfm so it doesn’t kill as much power with it on. S&b & green filter are some of the top flowing air filters on the market. Try them and see how they compare to a vibrant one
0:01 Have not noticed a reddish torch flame out of the exhaust like this before. At night (dark outside), see more flames, still not this color. (I probably need to get out more). 😆
