We Need To Talk About Daggerheart: Critical Role's New RPG Review 

Aye that made more sense.

can I get it without being afraid of communism?

Not the game theory mention after Matpat leaving last Sunday!!! [A joke for the people who will inevitably try to say something]

But really ...do we really 'need' to talk about a bunch of actors that simulate playing a TTRPG ?

I have a proposition. I'm presently working on a d20 ttrpg with a small group of friends and feel like you would be interested in it.

I thought one of Oppy's abilities had her roll a d20.

@@Catalyst375it’s only that specific ability though

The d20 was for damage.

Yes. That makes more sense from what I have seen.

The main thing I am worried about is the fact that there are cards which presumably we will have to buy and also the lack of homebrew. My next campaign is going to be in the yokai realms so I can't switch to it for at least a campaign.

Yeah, I was gonna say that.

He has corrected himself in the comments, good call 😊

Thanks so much for this, I was struggling with the rolling a d20 to attack and how to gain hope/fear when never rolling the d12's in combat for attacks lol.

yeah players do use the 2 d12's. the fear and hope dice directly influence combat

Another addition: You can only have 5 Abilities Card active in your "deck" at the same time. On a rest (dont remember if its short or long) you can trade out your cards for free, or in the middle of combat you can mark stress designated on the card to pull it into your deck. He said there was no justification but there IS a mechanic for them being cards.

Good to hear. I haven't done more than skim the beta stuff (it's a lot) so I don't have a comprehensive understanding of how it works.

You should definitely give the One Ring starter set a try. It's the best starter set I've ever experienced. Teaches you mechanics as you advance along the included adventures, the pre-made characters are fantastic, and the adventures make you feel like you are living in the Shire.

Great to hear, plan to run the pregen soon as well! The only other system I can think that teaches the system in the starter set is Fabula Ultima, and it is a refreshingly great idea and I hope more games embrace it!

@@Shadowkunakari Oh neat we're planning on Trying Fabula Ultima soon as well, excited to see how that rolls.

@@Shadowkunakari as I said in another comment, The One Ring 2e from Free League.

Also you can swap in cards too while not in downtime. The higher level cards have stress point costs that you can spend to swap a card(s) into your prepared cards at any time. High risk, high reward.

I mean, not really. Not anymore then preparing spells as a cleric or something. TBH I want to playtest Daggerheart but I can't imagine using the cards when I do at all

@@MrFinnyousAnd a lot of people use cards to track spells/magic items for that same reason. I don't think they /need/ to be cards but it's helpful and not pointless.

Cards also make low cost expansions very easy. Instead of a new book you can make "booster" packs with domains or subclasses etc. Personally the old school gamer in me hopes cards means a cool box set :)

@@LevTheLurker I'm well aware that people do use cards but I don't so far think it's necessary for this game or something that I think the majority would prefer. And I didn't write "pointless"

What a relief!! Thank you for letting us know! ❤

Came to comment the same thing. 👍✨

And not to forget, art is expensive. Needing 10 pieces of art or 50 (or how many cards there are) is a massive difference

Sure, but you can just write down your abilites from D&D or any other system on a card and hold it in your hand if you'd like. The critique was that there was no unique mechanic that utilizes the cards. I got no issue with them being cards, but it really is just stuff to sell people

I mean... tbh there isn't anything stopping you from doing the exact same thing with your other TTRPGs. If you have an ability write it on a flash card with the number of uses in a corner with boxes etc. it is pretty easy.

I think it helps a lot of neuro divergent players as well, it’s so annoying when you’ve missed something on your character sheet or your frantically scanning through your characters notes mid game because you’re pretty sure you’ve got something but can’t find where you’ve written it down.

The cards are definitely helpful. It reminds me of Hordes and War Machine. It would be easy enough to put a laminate over a sheet to use a marker to keep track of resources and HP.

If you want cards in your game then try Warhammer Fantasy 3rd edition by Fantasy Flight. It made the game too board gamey for most, but the good part was you only needed your hand of cards and character sheet to play and the rules were there right in your hand. FF came up with lots of mechanisms that simulated effects and it was a beautiful production.

I do similar with d10, because it 0 on it

I like using a tray with different labeled compartments, with beads for the "points". So in Daggerheart, you would have compartments labeled "Stress", "Hope", etc, and you could put beads in each and add or remove as abilities use or create points.

@@MrJusskippyThis is exactly what I was thinking in terms of different colored chits, but I love the idea of a labeled box too

Paperclips on a sliding chart. Just put it on the edge of the character sheet. the clip can circle the number you are on. Trick I picked up from Deadlands RPG.

Yeah I am sure they will have stuff in the shop because why wouldn't they want to monetize the game and make shiny things that people are excited to buy? And at the same time it is clearly not the sort of game where it is required to play. I understand why people are cynical about capitalism in general but I feel like this is a case of being overly jaded.

@@kmaguire7161 I believe the fellows point was theres more stuff to have on the table, it sounds like it could get a little cluttered, with a lot of taff floating about. More than the cynicism we're all absorbing more and more lately (though there was a slight mention of that at the start of the bit)

​@@kmaguire7161also to add to this he mentions that you "have to have tokens" for modifiers and that they all must be unique which isn't true. Tokens for modifiers are purely suggested so you have a physical thing to remind you to add something. Also unique tokens aren't needed so of them can be the same as long as they are distributed appropriately

I agree. Matt called this out specifically. I think the box set they'll eventually release will include all this, and be as expensive as all get out, but DIY will always be an option. I'm more concerned for how MUCH of these external bits and bobs there are to track. For me, it's overwhelming enough to follow in the "how to" videos. I can't imagine trying to get a newbie player to keep track of all this...

@@kdonv Good point, though I think for some it may actually be easier. For me, I find having the physical items MUCH easier to play with than just the contents of my character sheet. It gives my brain the clarity of what resources I have to strategize with, which is something I have always struggled with in DND. So I’m excited for this new element!

Ditto!

No problem. Come back in 2 years.

Yes

I mean, he did mention there is over 300 pages in the free download playtest. Maybe check there?

I'd like to upvote this comment ten times pls.

It is also a good design style for programmers to translate into code. Keep the rules short and swappable with minimal rooms for exceptions

I see your point with the card thing, but if you think of them as spells rather than feats, as many of them are just actions you can take, then the swapping of active cards is quite similar to swapping prepared spells, which can be referenced from a book

@@theomegazed213 I keep seeing all these "new innovations", like having to swap out old stuff for new, that are coming back from 4e, the game everyone hated. I'm stoked, I loved 4e!

Sorcerer can also discard a card from their "hand" into their vault in order to gain add hope or extra magic damage to a spell

@@emerynoel567Critical Role makes a game that takes stuff people liked from 4e and makes it in a style that suits a casual 5e roleplay play style.

Might as well make all D&D spells cards then cause they get swapped out every long rest and in some cases during the day as well. Point is, this doesn't justify the premise of cards any more than making D&D spell cards. You can do it if you want but it would just be because its easier to track. Now if this system plays fantastic I have to say it would be exiting to slowly build up a nice set of gear for it. That is restricted to those who can afford it though.

Some cards have zero swap cost. From the Daggerheart playtest character creation video on CR channel.

Still not a justification nor a unique mechanic, them being cards just makes it easier to remember, but you can do that with any system by just writing stuff down on post it notes if you wanted to

@@Sorestlorlots of people use DnD spell cards. Lots of people do not. The cards are similarly very optional here. You can just as easily write everything on your sheet and track it there.

@@nathanrhoades6504 The point is that it is the biggest selling point of the system and it just feels very optional. The most exciting thing for me is how the decks make up the classes whilst the classes often don't have many abilities. It doesn't need to be something physical though, so we are left wondering why the are adding an optional accessory to the base game. Also any addons / new classes will need new decks, which means I can see a pretty aggressive monatization strategy where the new cards power creep the old ones whilst simultaneously requiring you to buy the new deck in addition to the new rules lol

Is Dadderheart using the Daggerheart system to play in the Dadlands setting? But also very yes. It increasingly seems like WotC needs some sort of exterior reminder to make a game that’s competitive in the market and not keep doing goofem-ups and faux pas.

It won't be a D&D killer, but it should to very well in comparison due to their built in customer base / audience (unless they somehow screw things up catastrophically). WotC/Hasbro did piss off enough people and often enough lately to make players go look what's beyond the D&D bubble.

It feels like a Blades in the Dark/Powered by the Apocalypse hack and I'm not sure how I feel about it.

@@LupineShadowOmegathose are in fact key inspiration points when they were building out the system. The beta PDF says so. Take that as you will

D&D is being iterated upon. The new core rule book comes out this year. It's been in open play testing for a few years.

I like using the glass "dots" they have for flower vases and such- colorful and cheap.

I was thinking just get some pennies. I have hundreds

Heck, just go out and buy a bag of m&ms for hope and a bag of DM's choice for fear.

This is almost definitely the case. With the exception that getting it all running on demiplane feels like a more "final" product. Even though I'm sure it isn't

I mean….that’s generally the purpose of a beta test……

🤔 interesting. That's actually a great idea. Trick people into figuring out the fun for you.

@@Farstr1d3r not really tho, you want to test the system as close to being finished as possible so you get usable feedback. You dont beta test a hoard of unbalanced features to see what sticks. In video games you beta test to see if youve made any oversights, test servers and to find bugs, not to come up with a final set of features. That would be more of an alpha test.

I agree, it is most likely the case. That being said, there are many of the core mechanics, and base game design I don't particularly care for. I can for sure see the appeal to many tables. But my tables style of play will fit better with the MCDM rpg, as the mechanics flow well with what we've already changed about 5e at our table. I'll still end up running a few one shots to help provide feedback.

You're right. That's what is written in the rules. DnD Shorts definitely got that wrong.

To be a little more specific. One d12 is the fear die and the other is the hope die. The one that is higher is what the roll is with.

That being said, where in the rules does it state that? I cannot find where it talks about gm rolls at all in the playtest docs

@@Xyphyri It's in the combat section. That's the only scenario where the DM would have to roll.

Oh that's a really clever point!

So you think if there is campaign 4 it's going to be the prequel? I don't like where that would go, but it might potentially have sense. As much as I love that they're introducing the new gods in the setting for Daggerheart, I wouldn't want them to leave Exandria behind, introducing unknown lands maybe, but still on the same planet. And new races could happen to either be on these unknown lands always or there could be some kind of Conjuction of Spheres/Worlds Collide type of situation. And it still could be in a present Exandrian day.

@@akrumvatum1627 The malleus key and all is said to be messing with magic in Exandria. That would be a good canon explanation for why it's different in campaign 4. FCG's thing meanwhile could just be an aeormaton thing (stress is broad in Daggerheart so it doesn't have to be a specific thing that comes into being)

So campaign 3 is like where they test some features of Daggerheart and make sure its compatible with 5e...

@akrumvatum1627 I’m not sure if it will be a prequel but it is odd that FCG is the only one that uses the “stress” mechanic. It could be that it’s just a coincidence of using the same term since during the Daggerheart live stream no one took too much stress and went into a homicidal rampage lol.

I'm not sure there's actually any more than in D&D. D&D has spell slots, way more granular money system, tons of features you can use X, Y, or Z times per short or long rest depending on your Ability, Proficiency, or Level, Ki points, Sorcery points, ammunition, camping supplies, Inspiration, magic item charges, and so on. The big difference is that the Daggerheart sheet has a place to track them, rather than expecting you to keep tabs on those resources on a piece of scrap paper. But you don't actually have to track those things on your sheet, if you prefer using a scrap of paper. IMHO, Daggerheart eliminates a lot of bookkeeping D&D uses. Probably because Critical Role knows a lot of players and DMs are already ignoring a lot of the bookkeeping in D&D by default.

@@TheRawrnstuffFor all the bookkeeping it eliminates, it adds more. Tracking Hope and Fear sounds miserable when I already never remember to grant inspiration. The three Damage Threshholds are ridiculous in a system where armor works in the way it does. And for all they want to play up the supposed simplicity of the money system, that level of abstraction makes things more confusing at the lower end. If I know I have ten gold then I know how much buying power I have: 10 GP worth. But if I have a 'handful', it's just a handfull of handwavium.

@@andyenglish4303"But if I have a 'handful', it's just a handfull of handwavium" Yes, that is the point of removing bookkeeping. Things get handwaved. But good news! You don't have to remember to grant inspiration in DH, so you're golden. "The three Damage Threshholds are ridiculous in a system where armor works in the way it does" But it isn't though. It's very straightforward. I think you don't know how the system works. And if you think checking a box and erasing a box as needed is _more_ work than tracking every single point of damage and HP... I don't know what to tell you. You might have a special kind of brain.

@@andyenglish4303 The thing is unlike Inspiration, Hope and Fear are a natural consequence of the rolling, not a thing you have to remember to pass out. The GM has to know whether you rolled with Hope or Fear in order to take moves, so you will always have a reminder to gain it.

re: massive damage, I think it'll have to be revised or homebrewed more than the double the severe threshold; might be more crunchy but 1 damage to hp for every 10 damage past severe, or adjust lower (8) or higher (12) to taste.

Tbh .. regular inishitiv sucks..the best system i found for inishitive that you role for it lfg deluxe inishitive. You role: if succeed you go before enemies, if fail after ,if greatly succeed you go before the boss even .

​@yuvalgabay1023 that's literally old AD&D initiative.

@@yuvalgabay1023 eh I like regular initiative as it allows for players to have variation in their builds, it is no longer all or nothing.

@@kitnal4143 tbh. I can loss some built variations for a smoother game . The loss is minimal (as most game its tied to a stat)

You can simply write corrections over already printed cards.

he cant get 5e rules right half the time, no reason to expect him to do any better with this game

He’d actually have to read it to do that

That’s really interesting!! 👀👀

I think what system C4 is will depend a lot on the success of Daggerheart. If DH doesn't sell well, and doesn't get a solid fan base, CR won't move there from D&D.

@@DnDShorts Yeah, if you go to the CR wiki entry for the Malleus Key, you can find a link to the timestamp for the exact statement.

@@nickdejager8873 I wouldn't believe that for a second. D&D isn't why Critters watch CR. CR is the reason why Critters play D&D.

Yup, I’ve been thinking the same thing. The threat of C3 honestly has a great excuse for magic behaving totally differently, different types of peoples being introduced, and so forth. Any change is easily explained with this. We’ve already seen teleportation, communication, and reviving magics interfered with. Given the death rules, it seems like something along the lines of revivify doesn’t exist? Something that has already gone away in C3

Agreed on the initiative, as a shy player I like getting my turn in combat and sometimes I would prefer initiative to be a thing in social interactions too.

I totally agree with the initiative. We totally can't let the loud and obnoxious players take all the actions.

@@urixl I believe that is what the action tokens are for.

I truly hope so too!

Mt foda

Assim espero também mano! To curtindo o conteudo até agora

Acho que é um sistema com muito potencial, com certeza jogaria nas minhas mesas

I was thinking that the only downside to this is that it might be rather limiting for future classes they want to introduce. Like you would have to introduce several classes at a time that all have domains to share between. But there is no reason why in the future they couldn't change things up and not make every domain shared between 2 classes or have certain domains shared by multiple classes. Like they could introduce a Necromancer that shares the Wizard/Bard Codex Domain but also has its own Book of the Dead Domain that it doesn't share with anyone else. Or a Warlock who uses the Sorcerer/Druid Arcana Domains plus its own Summoning Domain it doesn't share. Lots of possibilities they can expand on.

​@@kmaguire7161 Yeah, like a warlock or battle-mage type class could be Arcane and Blade domains, I agree that there's no need to create circles like they are now going forward. Plus they could introduce new domains in the future too. My guess is that these core classes/domains are this way to be presented in a neat package rather than because of balance reasons.

I really like the hope/fear mechanic as a way of using abilities instead of a flat times per day for everything. It keeps things rolling along and prevents the supernova problem in DnD or alternatively having one party member gas out and have nothing to do until a long rest.

Combat in daggerheart is going to take much longer as the players continuously argue over who gets to go next.

@@fred_derfWhy? If they can come to an agreement on their tactics, then it should become obvious who needs to go when.

​@fred_derf , I feel like the problem will lie less with players arguing and more with more vocal/experienced players doing more in combat and newer/more quiet players getting overlooked. The benefit of initiative is that everyone gets a turn every round. In this, it's gonna be up to the dm to make sure that people are allowing everyone to get a chance to speak and get a turn. That's one more thing the dm now has to control, instead of a rule that does that for them.

@@mal2ksc, asks _"Why?"_ The next word in your post says it all: *If*

D&D 4E had cards for at will, encounter, per day abilities. One of my characters had multiple personalities with different sets of abilities (cards). There's something very satisfying about physical things you can play with at the table!

Loved this book.

I was thinking the same thing. The advert was hysterical. If I had money I was about to buy a table. 😂

I love the system as a whole but I feel like the cards need to do more to be warranted as part of the base game. Having abilities on cards isn't a new concept, it is just usually they are optional things you can get or create to help organise yourself if you work better that way. The reason they are optional is because there is a risk of creating clutter on the table in play. For me, I would probably create my own cards that are smaller so I don't need to buy a deck multiple times over because my party of 6 all want something with "midnight" in, whilst also meaning I won't have to worry about them inevitably getting lost xD

Literally nothing stops you doing that in any rpg today … literally cut paper to size, write the “power” on it and put it in a magic sleeve. This is not a defining feature of the game

⁠@@kitnal4143I don’t understand if you don’t like the cards then write it down on your character sheet. It’s literally an optional thing

@megan7792 it is integral to the product though. Without it you have a pretty basic RPG. At that point we need a new USP.

I've also done this, or used smaller post it notes over the top of things that get changed a lot (like HP)

Of course Matt and CR will use easter egg names from his campaigns that the fans know and love. But, Matt mentioned that the one shot they played live did not take place in exandria, Daggerheart promotes the players to help create the world they play in, which will be difficult to do if Matt has already created the world. Also Exandria is now deeply tied to DnD with the books released through WoTC. If they start a new campaign with S04 and stick with DH, they will also make a new world, new lore etc. I'm all for it. If I've enjoyed watching them play DnD for 9 years, it could be nice to see them try another system. =)

I personally think it'll be a "mistake" for the business/media empire side of things, to shift Exandria from D&D. I can't see myself wanting to understand how Daggerheart works to feel fully immersed, to continue watching. I expect this might be true about how a lot of people feel about it. Looking at the numbers of how Candela Obscura started out/is right now with the first episode, and then seems to have a sharp decline compared to the main campaign, might be an indicator of this. I do wonder if how the Daggerheart one shot does over time until the main campaign starts to reach a conclusion, will influence their decision to finalise that transition. If they as a group enjoy the flow of how Daggerheart works for their style of play better than D&D, then more power to them, they should transition. I don't vibe with Spencer's game design though, after watching his stint in the chair during Candela Obscura, I think it's because he wants to be flashy as a DM, but it doesn't feel like he has a full grasp of storytelling techniques. I couldn't finish watching after multiple occasions of him very clearly steering things in a specific direction, and ignoring player agency. In respect of Daggerheart, we don't need to overcomplicate a pass and fail system to "push the story", we don't need to add boons and curses to a pass and fail system as a standard. I actually hate how D&D has shoehorned something similar in with Inspiration Points being granted for critical successes. It's overly gamifying the experience of success and failure. I like the control over doing these things on the fly myself when I see fit in D&D, and it seems like they are handing way too much over to the system. They're trying too hard to put "the story" first, and in the process, they're making it all about the system. With D&D, the fact that it pretty much explicitly tells you "you, the DM, decide how you want to do things" is what makes D&D resonate with bedroom storytellers. For example, in my current (paused) campaign, I simply put a lot of emphasis on the things that my players do, and don't do, to create reactive branching paths, and find ways to grant boons and curses to players in reaction and relation to their collective successes and failures, sometimes that will result in the mechanical, or the more abstract (e.g. story or character development opportunities, direction etc.). I don't want to secede control of that to the system itself. Doing that will water down the TTRPG experience.

I think they might have a DnD C4 *and* Daggerheart going at the same time for a while. As others have said they have built their brand off on DnD so it feels odd to abandon it for something that could easily run in dandem- showing off new talent whilst doing so

That’s just IP building to be fair.

+mmasque2052, writes _"From what i’ve seen so far (roughly half of the one-shot) Daggerheart has a bigger emphasis on story-telling than D&D does while simplifying combat to make it more cinematic."_ That's because Daggerheart is aimed at people who are looking for a ttrpg to perform (for an audience) and not for people to play (for themselves).

@@fred_derf I would say it's more of it being build by people who like roleplaying more than combat, while still giving a solid combat system on top of that. You don't need to "perform for an audience" to enjoy telling a story, there is countless tables that don't even run combat in their games. After all, it is called a "roleplaying" game (RPG).

⁠@@fred_derfI feel like most people like the theatrics when their playing dnd, so no - it really doesn’t feel like it’s aimed solely at an audience.

@@fred_derfaw man, are you one of those fellas who skip dialogue and story bits in games to get to combat faster? Different strokes for different folks, but you don’t need to be preforming for an audience to enjoy and immerse yourself in a story.

@@fred_derf The audience is you and the other players. There is always an audience.

I see what you mean, and would second that worries. in my weekly group we use a homegrown rules system we use on every genre we can agree upon. one player has some kind of ADHD I think, he's not very patient, though meaning no ill or anything. he just tends to jump in and get into action while the rest tries to come up with what their characters would do. even is his char isn't on the scene... sometimes we have to all stop him from taking over the game. players like this would take everything over leaving everyone behind as mere spectators, and it would be a lot of extra work for the GM to prevent that. it takes experienced and disciplined players for it to work out for everyone.

I will say adding initiative or taking it away is the easiest thing in the world to do or not do. That wouldn’t keep me from any system

@megan7792 that might be true if you're the GM. Most players join games run by someone else. And as a general rule, most people will play by whatever rule is in the book.

I am a quiet sort of person as well. I feel quite apprehensive to an open turn type of style as it'll usually have the loudest and most outgoing players make their moves first. And I am... not that lol. I don't know. Just feels like it can leave players wanting.

i think a few 1d100 hope and stress charts will fix that, then as dm you just pick a few for your pcs :)

There’s nothing saying you have to be super creative EVERY single time though. And in a system where you roll less I don’t see it becoming exhausting unless you make it.

This idea - yes,but/no,but is common in a whooooole lot of games. As a GM who runs that kind of game, if I'm feeling uncreative but don't want to fall back on a standard response, I just ask the players for suggestions. It works 9 times out of 8.

@@nightfr09 this is a great idea, but I'd rather see a Hope Deck and Fear Deck. Sure they'll probably cost $20 each. But it would be nice to just flip the card and hand it to the PC with all the specific effects spelled out on the card.

I think that is my second biggest gripe with the system. The way I see it is that there *will* be fatigue, and eventually everyone is going to start glossing over this at least part of the time and just collect the hope or fear and move on. But the rules specifically say that something *always* happens.

From what I understand, that system actually comes from Shadow of the Demon Lord.

@@elifiaThat's also not listed in the touchstones, in the open beta playtest. They mentioned a lot of other things that inspired them though.

@@elifiabtw thanks for pointing that out, I've been reading the book and it is wild.

Yup, exactly. Before that, it looks like just the baseline Sorcerer class feature Channel Raw Power does anything with putting cards away: Once per Long Rest, you can place a Domain card from your Loadout into your Vault and choose to either: * Gain Hope equal to the level of the card. * Add magic damage equal to twice the level of the card to a spell you’ve successfully cast. Other than that, below level 5, it's just a way to collect the choices you picked at each level-up (2 of 4 at first level, and 1 of those plus 4 new options at each later level-up). So you don't have to look over a large array of moves, only some of which are checked. So like spell cards, but those are most useful for prepared casters that have to pick a subset of the spells they know. With a fixed set of available moves for non-sorcerers at levels 1 to 4, I guess you could write them down in a section on your character sheet.

Thank you, came to post this as well. That's the benefit of using cards, you swap them into and out of the vault instead of having to write/erase on your character sheet.

When that comes out

I definitely had laminated sheets with dry erase markers that I used before moving to digital haha

@@LightsabreSMGN for sure

As you level up you pick cards and at a long rest you can switch them out freely. It’s basically like preparing spell slots but for character features and abilities. You only use stress when you need to make a quick domain card change. 5 active cards, the rest go in your vault.

I think this is more to remind the players what abilities they have and having the players make a choice so they are forced to remember.