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we need to talk about THAT moment in critical role c3 ep91. Also about Story over Plot. 

Wizards & Wordslingers
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Wow. that episode of Critical Role was bonkers. First time I've actually cried watching the show. Let's talk about it and the lessons we can learn from the crazy twist that happened. Spoiler warnings timestamped in the episode.
Get ready for a raw, (mostly) unedited chat.
0:00 Intro
3:13 Minor Spoilers
4:00 Major Spoilers
7:45 Super-Duper Spoilers
10:42 The Lessons

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20 май 2024

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Комментарии : 90   
@not2sharpmd
@not2sharpmd Месяц назад
While it was a really cool thing to think of in the moment, don’t forget that the arcane core inside of FCG, and the possibility of it blowing up like other arcane cores we’ve seen, was a mechanic that was planted way back in Imahara Joe’s shop (I think?) I know it was set up and talked about before, and wasn’t just some crazy spur of the moment invention, I just forget exactly where.
@willmendoza8498
@willmendoza8498 Месяц назад
Sounds like a great moment. Had a few like it in my own games. Those are the sessions people remember for years to come
@m0ejo324
@m0ejo324 Месяц назад
Marisha said "Are you doing a blaze of glory?"
@wizardsling
@wizardsling Месяц назад
ahh, roger that. I misremembered it.
@m0ejo324
@m0ejo324 Месяц назад
@@wizardsling all good, I was listening to it before watching your video so it was fresh in my mind.
@darkguardian50
@darkguardian50 Месяц назад
Matt made an offhand comment before all this went down about all that time going down the drain. Referencing the very real possibility of a TPK. I've been dming almost 30 years on and off. And I can tell you that in most situations like they were in, unless someone pulls a rabbit out of the hat, its a tpk. And for people like myself and matt, who homebrew maybe not EVERY detail but most details of our world, its a tremendous amount of time invested. Sam didn't just save the party, he saved the game for Matt. And I can tell you from painful personal experience as a PLAYER that its incredibly hard to make that choice to let your character go. I had to do it recently in the game I am a player in, and that was a character I had only lived with for about 8 months. Think about how long Sam has lived with FCG. If you don't think that is a very real and powerful attachment, you are very mistaken. All of that served to make that highly emotional moment. I think the reaction that shocked me most was actually Talesin's. He is normally pretty collected. To see him break completely did catch me off guard a bit. But you sometimes aren't even aware of how much your own character might mean to the rest of the people you play with.
@stacieransom5677
@stacieransom5677 Месяц назад
100% it was Matt's reaction when he realized what Sam was doing and then Taliesin and then even Travis was affected. Marisha started grasping at straws trying to figure out a way out of Sam doing it and Travis shut her down. Not Laudna...Marisha. I've never seen Travis do that. He's usually the one slowing things down and giving other players grace and wiggle room. Especially Taliesin. In C2, Taliesin was having a panic attack and Travis called for slowing things down and giving him room to figure out what he was gonna do. It speaks volumes when Travis uses his "dad voice" with another player at the table because he never does and he totally did.
@wizardsling
@wizardsling Месяц назад
100%. Well said. You could tell that Matt realized early on that the encounter was unbalanced, especially once Sam said that FCG was out of diamonds, he had Otohan stop attacking PCs after they had gone down. Balancing high-level combat in 5E is incredibly tough. It's a lot of guesswork
@curtisholsinger6023
@curtisholsinger6023 Месяц назад
​@wizardsling I... am not certain that Matt metagamed by having Otohan stop attacking downed players. The others were hitting too hard when left alone. The switch to just down them and then move on was good tactics. It made them focus more on healing, and they couldn't just have most of the party flee if half of them are down at one time. Matt pulled no punches. It was absolutely brutal. And remember, Otohan started going around stabbing downed players when she was confident she had the time to. Honestly, whole party would have died without Sam's decision. And it wasn't just Sam. The players from C1 Era and the first half of C2, if we talk about their inexperience... those players would have suffered a TPK or they would have fled really early. Summary: The C3-era players have gotten really REALLY good at this. And Matt is a great DM, so when Sam admitted an oversight, Matt found a good compromise with the Revivify spell. This whole combat was just amazing and now we have even more compelling story for C3.
@TheNoodel
@TheNoodel Месяц назад
Hey, thanks for this video! One thing if you need a feedback: I like how calm you are talking, it rings well in my ears :) I would love to hear more of your perspective than 3min short snippet vs 11min recapping. It is really interesting point of view - story vs plot and would love to hear more about it :) Cheers man!
@nashespiritu
@nashespiritu Месяц назад
She was most likely a Psi Warrior level 20 with the backpack allowing her to use Echo Knight features like unleash incarnate... this was probably the research from the luxon beacon... When the first faced her she was probably a level 15 Psi Warrior with the pack... hope this helps...
@gatonegroloco
@gatonegroloco Месяц назад
She was using echo knight skills too so she could have also been that. just with the thematics being the backpack is what allowed her so.
@jonathanhibberd9983
@jonathanhibberd9983 Месяц назад
She was actually level 11 or 12 the first time they fought her.
@flynnoldman3542
@flynnoldman3542 Месяц назад
Otohan has been level 20 the whole time. She was just toying with them in the first fight.
@jonathanhibberd9983
@jonathanhibberd9983 Месяц назад
@@flynnoldman3542 was she also toying with Keyleth? She only had 6 attacks plus her bonus for that fight. You don't kill enemies if you're "just toying" with them. She killed 5 members of the party during that fight. Killed. Not knocked out. She was going for blood. She wasn't pulling her punches. So no, she was only level 11 or 12 in that fight.
@flynnoldman3542
@flynnoldman3542 Месяц назад
@@jonathanhibberd9983 She was trying to get Imogen to let go at that point. Yes she was toying with them.
@stacieransom5677
@stacieransom5677 Месяц назад
I also discovered CR during C2 and I've gone back and watched chunks of C1 before finally watching it thru and I watched all the one shots. I also struggle here and there with C3 but the Laudna episodes and now the current "Sam" episode, wrecked my soul. C3 has had epic moments but it isn't fluid greatness like C2 was. However, these people are first class and I will stick with them thru thick and thin, regardless. I was expecting Sam to do the "rage" thing but I was not expecting it this way and it hurt.
@LednacekZ
@LednacekZ Месяц назад
it makes sense. i had huge problem accepting the campaign 2 characters, as i started with Vox Machina. I had much better time adapting in 3rd campaign.
@lj1653
@lj1653 Месяц назад
Otohan was an absolute monster on the battlefield. Offensively she was probably a CR20 or CR21 encounter... extremely deadly for a group of 7 level 12's. She had 4 attacks per turn, plus the ability to use a bonus action to make a 5th bonus offhand attack, plus 2 action surges, plus the backpack that spawns shadow clones, plus ascending and getting a higher AC and taking half damage from all attacks while ascended, which also refreshes both action surges so she will have 4 action surges total, plus 3 legendary actions per round of combat that she can use at the end of any players turn, plus 3 legendary resistances, plus Psionic Energy dice that let her do lots of stuff, plus a Supreme healing potion to destroy any hope of being able to end the fight quickly. plus they were fighting her in a confined space, which limited their ability to run away or use flight effectively to stay out of melee range.
@jonathanhibberd9983
@jonathanhibberd9983 Месяц назад
"absolute monster" is right. Literally. When she got her exalted mode, between her weapon, her skills, and the bonuses from that mode, she was more powerful than a tarrasque. 25AC - same as a tarrasque Resistance to all damage - a tarrasque has a more limited list Her restored surges gave her 12 attacks per round to a tarrasque's 8. Her weapon, psy points, and proficiency bonuses means she will knock everyone she hits prone on the first hit, giving her advantage and an additional 2d6 damage on subsequent attacks with her main weapon. With that in mind, her minimum damage is 130 per round vs a tarrasque's 98. That's enough to down Orym in one round, Ashton in 2 (with rage), and everyone else in less than a round - if they were all at full health. And with the broken homebrew potion that did twice the dice of healing that the biggest potion in the game did, she had the potential to have effectively 1/3 the health of a tarrasque (at max healing). As it was, she was pretty close to that. Frankly if it were anyone other than Matt Mercer, most people would have no problem calling this bad DMing.
@stacieransom5677
@stacieransom5677 Месяц назад
I get challenging your players but dang. Odahan was over the top.
@Jeffphuck
@Jeffphuck Месяц назад
​​@@jonathanhibberd9983Matt also has 7 players which he allows to have crazy homebrew magic items and powers, such as Imogens moon powers and Fearne/Ashton's primordial powers. If he doesn't make broken bad guys, he can't challenge his broken party. The party rolled really bad and he rolled insanely good, and they STILL won with only one party member dying against the big bad of the whole campaign so far. So clearly it wasn't bad DMing after all.
@Blukran
@Blukran Месяц назад
Why release predathos? Just let Otohan go solo each god one at a time
@wizardsling
@wizardsling Месяц назад
If they hadn't gotten that backpack off her, it seems like it would've been a TPK. Ripping that thing from her back was the smartest combat turn, definitely
@chainclaw07
@chainclaw07 Месяц назад
12:15 I'm only guessing but Sam knew that he didn't want to turn red and attack his friends. I think he had been thinking about his core and how powerful it might be and in that moment it clicked - if i turn and attack "allies" can't I attack myself and therefore trigger my core? that's why he was so willing to spend that last stress on the turn before
@evrys3221
@evrys3221 Месяц назад
I think you explained why people revere one campaign over others. I personally prefer C3 over the other 2 because I started with that one. I enjoy the other campaigns, but I like the C3 characters and NPCs the most, personally.
@jonathanhibberd9983
@jonathanhibberd9983 Месяц назад
I started with C1. Episode 18 was my first live episode. I had a similar reaction to campaign 2. Didn't care for most of the characters at first, and even after they grew on me, I found most of the story to be boring until after Yasha got back. Campaign 3 is by far my favorite. It's the first one where I clicked with all the characters from episode 1, and found the story to be interesting & engaging. More than the standard high-fantasy of C1 or the meandering of C2. I love how unique this story has been, and how focused it's been.
@stacieransom5677
@stacieransom5677 Месяц назад
I think there is a lot of truth to that. I think the obvious thing is to prefer whatever introduced you to a thing in the first place. I discovered CR during C2 and that's my favorite. I think C1 would be my favorite had I started there. It's the thing that draws you in and creates the bond that becomes the favorite.
@stacieransom5677
@stacieransom5677 Месяц назад
​@@jonathanhibberd9983I feel like there was a lot of stalling in C2 because they wanted to make sure Ashley was there for the good stuff. Which is gracious of the whole cast. She's obviously important to them and they obviously care about each other immensely. That's a beautiful thing.
@joewalsh496
@joewalsh496 16 дней назад
F.R.I.D.A. finding out is going to be heartbreaking
@Dunybrook
@Dunybrook 29 дней назад
I'm generally not a fan of how people try to come up with their own version of warforged that are weaker than the original in one way or another because they are so fun to play as is but FCG's weakness was turned to quite the advantage in terms of roleplay and even combat in the end. I think he's dead for real not for the least because Sam Riegal always ends up playing two characters in every campaign.
@shadowpsykie
@shadowpsykie Месяц назад
They could bring him back via reincarnation. He would come back as “a real boy”
@stacieransom5677
@stacieransom5677 Месяц назад
I hope they figure out a way.
@mikejednorog3383
@mikejednorog3383 Месяц назад
I hope he stays gone … it would cheapen the sacrifice… I think Sam liked fcg but not the game play much … he didn’t like being the healer it seems
@stacieransom5677
@stacieransom5677 Месяц назад
@@mikejednorog3383 I kinda wonder if he decided that FCG as a character, wasn't really serving the story as well as he wanted the character to. I think he also understood the real possibility of a TPK and didn't want that.
@wizardsling
@wizardsling Месяц назад
I hope they don't bring him back as it would greatly lessen the sacrifice. But I do hope someday, probably after the campaign, they do a one-shot to uncover his backstory. Maybe Bells Hells links up with D or Dancer to go to Aoer.
@mikejednorog3383
@mikejednorog3383 Месяц назад
@@stacieransom5677 it shoulda still been a Tpk. But Matt had it kill othan outright (which I woulda done too ) but for sure Sam seemed like fcg didn’t fit or he didn’t like the gameplay of clerics (homebrewed ones)
@BMHume
@BMHume Месяц назад
Soooo... Did I hear you correctly that you are going to make a video on how to play an Echo Knight/why Echo Knights are fun to play? 😉
@wizardsling
@wizardsling Месяц назад
haha, maybe I should. I played a Harengon Echo Knight for a little while in a Dungeon of the Mad Mage campaign and really enjoyed it.
@TrueGilby
@TrueGilby Месяц назад
I'm playing a Warforged Echo Knight whose backstory is that he was a high level wizard who was trying to live forever without being a litch, so he built this robot body. His husband was killed and he couldn't take it so he tried to put him into the body and they both got sucked into it during the ritual. The wizard is the body while his husband is the echo and neither can remember any of their past (at least not yet). No spells or abilities transferred either. You can do some wild things! My favorite so far is I got to the bottom of a 1,000 foot cliff with next to no effort.
@seaphor665
@seaphor665 19 дней назад
you should do a vid on the way they came back the next week and did the switch at half time- THAT'S when people started dropping
@wizardsling
@wizardsling 19 дней назад
i'm not a big fan of aabria, so i didn't watch that part. shrug
@vgexpert20001
@vgexpert20001 Месяц назад
One interesting way to bring him back is if they get in contact with "D" or even any of the Mighty Nein, they could take him to the Genesis Ward for a full on upgrade recovery. HOWEVER, to carry the weight of the sacrifice, he comes back as "Faithful Care Giver 2.0" and completely loses his memory and personality he developed during his time with Dancer. A full on Molly/Kingsly effect.
@wizardsling
@wizardsling Месяц назад
It's a good idea. I hope they save it for a post-campaign one-shot.
@vgexpert20001
@vgexpert20001 Месяц назад
@@wizardsling Honestly I think they're going to attempt to bring him back immediately, but will hit some kind of road block. It wouldn't make sense for them to be like "FCG IS DEAD!...Oh well, we got other things to worry about. Just dump him in the garage somewhere and we'll deal with that later." Lol
@danjamin905
@danjamin905 Месяц назад
F.C.G is a Odahan killer!
@DragonRekindled
@DragonRekindled 4 дня назад
I think the FCG sacrifice was completely improvised to save the campaign (Matt said it himself as he decided the damage on the go) The drama cry after that felt so cringe and fake and was only there to cover the charade… i am disappointed by where Critical role went…
@riculfriculfson7243
@riculfriculfson7243 16 дней назад
The big bad was doing very well without any assistance. The exalted status made the fight nearly unwinnable (even in the forgiving nature of 5e compared to 3.5). The potion, that didn't exist until the GM deems it so, was a choice to make this a PC killer. There was no need for the potion. It could be argued that the exalted status was unnecessary. The story appeared to require what happened, which sours things for me. Still invested but not quite as much now.
@wizardsling
@wizardsling 16 дней назад
how do you know that potion didn't exist before?
@riculfriculfson7243
@riculfriculfson7243 15 дней назад
@@wizardsling The potion was something in Matt's notes. There was a physical prop but that is irrelevant as it could have been ignored by the GM if they choose to. There could have been any number of things that could have been 'noted' for a variety of occasions. A GM decides what is real in their world when they reveal it in game. Let's face it, they are the universe whereas the PC's are just individuals in that universe. Some GM's I've played with will work with the concept of making an encounter challenging but will amend things on the fly to aim for an approximate arc. Others will 'decide' before hand that a certain thing will happen and will not deviate. Not sure which this one was. Matt did not have to add the exalted effect to half all damage. He didn't have to heal the BB for that much, however he chose to. Do you think that the party was always supposed to try and defeat the BB with all the extra benefits that Matt added, regardless of lucky rolls that he made?
@spcwild
@spcwild Месяц назад
For me Campaign 3 was so "world wide" in terms of Exandria that it felt hard to connect to. It's been non-stop to Ruidus since the beginning of the campaign and the deck has been so stacked against Bepls Hells that it doesn't feel as satisfying to watch the lose conflict after conflict. Whereas Mighty9 had minor victories all over that added up to a bigger win.
@wizardsling
@wizardsling Месяц назад
yeah, that's fair, the world gets bigger in each campaign. And this group of heroes is different... VM and M9 had their own personal tragedies and dysfunctions, but Bell's Hells is completely wrought with dysfunction. It's a major campaign theme. It's taken them 90ish episodes just to learn how to pull together and work as a team since they're all so individually broken as people
@mikemiller8430
@mikemiller8430 Месяц назад
But remember going into this, the players asked for this campaign to be ramped up and the stakes to be higher. And frankly we should be surprised this is probably our first unwanted permadeath of the campaign.
@scarletcate3888
@scarletcate3888 Месяц назад
Spoiler warning - In their first fight with her, didn't she kill Orem, Fearn, and Laudna?
@wizardsling
@wizardsling Месяц назад
IIRC, she downed both Orym and Laudna, and FCG had to choose to heal only one of them. He chose Orym, which resulted in Laudna dying. My memory of that fight is a bit hazy tho. Maybe you're right and it was both Orym and Fearne, too. But there was definitely a Sophie's Choice there the resulted in Laudna's death. I remember the devastated look on Marisha's face as she walked away from the table.
@kalita77
@kalita77 Месяц назад
​@wizardsling Fearne and Orym died too. FCG brought Fearne back and she had to choose between Orym and Laudna and it was decided with a flip of coin.
@TwinSteel
@TwinSteel Месяц назад
Not an actual play fan myself but get that bag
@wizardsling
@wizardsling Месяц назад
:)
@happyclam1266
@happyclam1266 Месяц назад
First of all, we don't really NEED for anyone else to talk about "that episode" that just aired. Secondly, we certainly don't NEED to know that you didn't care for C3 because "you fell in love" with C2. (I hate C2. It's a subjective thing.) Five seconds in and I'm already ready to click off the video. So sick of people bashing C3 because they "love" the Mighty Nein, a chaotic mess of a campaign.
@happyclam1266
@happyclam1266 Месяц назад
Also anyone who couldn't see the differences in the characters of C3 needs a vision, hearing, and brain examination.
@philliptivis3082
@philliptivis3082 29 дней назад
"I don't NEED no instructions to know how to Rock!" -Carl
@scarletcate3888
@scarletcate3888 Месяц назад
I didn't understand why Matt was crying. What did he expect to happen? He had killed Chet. Most of the rest of the cast were doing death saves at some point. It seemed very likely that one or more characters were going to be permadeath. So why cry when one of the players does permadeath? Was it just that that wasn't the player Matt had in mind? And, in my opinion, he made Otohan OP. When they were actually close to killing her, she randomly pulls out a health potion that gave her 60+ heath? After she had already turned into an Exalted so that all damage was halved? I really wonder what Matt's plan was other than a TPK. Maybe Matt was sad that he no longer has FCG's arc with Aeor anymore.
@caseyfraser9758
@caseyfraser9758 Месяц назад
I think a player character dying at the hands of an NPC/DM is very different from a player character sacrificing themselves for their party. Sam knowing his character has more to do in the plot but still choosing to end himself to save the others is so wildly poetic and heart wrenching. Matt also helped create these characters and guided them through a lot of character building moments, so he has a big attachment to them as well
@flynnoldman3542
@flynnoldman3542 Месяц назад
Yeah. Matt intentionally made an op NPC to try to killing the pcs. Cuz he has a long history of doing that. Its always "me against them" with him.
@wizardsling
@wizardsling Месяц назад
I think Matt was crying because emotions. That'd be my guess.
@Jeffphuck
@Jeffphuck Месяц назад
@@flynnoldman3542 No he absolutely does not. If anything, he is very lenient and soft on them. There's rarely ever truly awful consequences to any of the group's decisions. The entire cast agreed they wanted this campaign to be more difficult with a higher chance of death, they said that going in. He is giving them exactly what they asked for.
@timiguire1145
@timiguire1145 Месяц назад
​@Jeffphuck if i had to guess that was sarcasm, matt is normally very lenient especially if they can give anything close to a half valid reason for it
@artistpoet5253
@artistpoet5253 Месяц назад
You have my love, Brother, for your passion for the craft but Matt's tears were of joy that he was able to demo the narrative impact of Daggerheart's 'Blaze of Glory'. Also, the cast went in knowing something was going down. There was going to be a "No. I AM your FATHER!" kind of moment which is why they took that break an hour in to the show. I'll tell you this: I've been in games where the player(s) pissed about for two hours fumbling their way through the plot until finally getting to the big fight, which I knew was going to be CLOSE, and damn it, not twenty or thirty minutes in we don't all decide to get snacks and use the bathroom. This show is scripted with some improve maybe. How often do we get to see the actual rolls? I'm not hating on CR, it's a great entertainment, but it's staged and this episode was designed to do three things: demo Daggerheart's 'awesome narrative mechanics', contrast Laudna's return with a 'final death' of another character and tie up FCG's arc because they wrote him into a hole he was never going to get out of.
@theshadowfax239
@theshadowfax239 Месяц назад
They took a break around 2 hours into the show, which is pretty standard since they average around 4 hours long. You should at least try to get your facts right when trying to be an edgelord online.
@roleingsolo
@roleingsolo Месяц назад
CR is not scripted. We know this is true because 1. scriptwriters don't get screen credits and this is a union shop in LA. 2. The script supervisor doesn't get a credit, and this is a union shop. 3. They ran the show during the writers and SAG strikes, but they are all still members in the SAG. 4. It would be about 10 times more effort to script and rehearse the show.
@wizardsling
@wizardsling Месяц назад
@@roleingsolo Of course you're right that it's not scripted, but also there's no point in arguing with the "CR is scripted" crowd. They're too entrenched in their beliefs to see logic.
@charlesbryant5897
@charlesbryant5897 Месяц назад
The point of arguing with people who cannot believe anyone could be better than them at DND without script writers is not to win, but to show newcomers and people with weak critical thinking skills who peek into the comments that it is not a consensus opinion. We argue against hate, not to change the hater, but to show others there is love.
@Wheeler1717
@Wheeler1717 Месяц назад
Character death in CC is completely inconsequential because Mercer doesn't possess the ability to let the PCs stay dead. I stopped watching them halfway through season 2 because there are no stakes, no real danger. The players know that, no matter what they do, MM will kiss their booboo and make it all better. Mollymauk doesn't count because that was Taliesin's decision and even that PC came back. So, FCG will be resurrected, guaranteed, unless Sam explicitly tells Mercer that he wants him to stay dead.
@theshadowfax239
@theshadowfax239 Месяц назад
Psst, here's a little secret: there literally no stakes in any of this, it's just a game. Have fun wallowing in negative edginess and learn to get over yourself. 😘
@Wheeler1717
@Wheeler1717 Месяц назад
@@theshadowfax239 Marisha, is that you?
@arf101088
@arf101088 Месяц назад
matts like whole dming style is repercussion and consequence. did you forget vax's whole later arc? he gave himself to the raven queen for his sister when the resurrection failed, because he REQUIRES REZ CHECKS. if it were base 5e RAW none of that happens. every rez is a chance that they just flat out dont come back. vax offered himself for vexs life, and he suffered that consequence. and in the end of campaign 2, they couldnt even get molly back like they wanted, they got kingsley instead.
@Jeffphuck
@Jeffphuck Месяц назад
@@stacieransom5677 Is a character REALLY dead if they literally make in-person appearances and are directly involved in the plot? Vax is the best example of Matt not letting people stay dead because he was the quintessential "now he can finally rest" character and he STILL came back. Dude literally made an agreement with a God that he can't return and did anyway.
@VenomGengar
@VenomGengar 20 дней назад
​@Jeffphuck haven't really watched Campaign three much but if the lore is dealing with God's and Vax is a angel/champion of the raven queen, it's not impossible for him to rescue Keyleth if the raven queen deems she has a purpose and its not her time. If I remember right in the epilogue of campaign 1, there was a raven that would visit keyleth but she never tried to perceive if it was Vax. Perhaps the raven queen gave him a reward for his services and it's a nice bit of fan service. Didn't Pike summon an angel of her patron god to restore the church at their keep.
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