Were the Scots Really Outnumbered at Bannockburn? 

Glad you enjoyed it Alex, I could go on for hours…

An appreciated and poignant reply. Towton is fascinating. Bruce had a year to prepare, and he was known as a very charismatic leader. The lowest thought population figure for Scotland in 1314 is 400,000 (Prof Barrow), which would approximate 100,000 fighting age. If Bruce could only field 6000, where were the rest when the countries survival from an invader was at stake? Sone historians give population of 1 million in Scotland. If that were so how were only 6000 from 250,000 Scot’s? One important thing from reading every source available, is that apart from Barbour, none of them mention any difference in numbers, quite the opposite, that the Scots had a great army in dense battle array, as if a dense forest, impenetrable. Fascinating! The Scots had to close off between the two waters, Pelstream and Bannockburn an area just short of 1000 yards, and withstand cavalry charge after cavalry charge with each knight and horse weighing approx 1 ton. That would take many more men to absorb that impact, as sources say there was a great jamming, and no movement for a while.

Thanks very much. I’m glad you enjoyed it!

Awesome story and lineage. He’s been one of my personal heroes as a boy and will feature in future films on my channel. I often wonder how he felt leading the right wing into battle at Bannockburn.

@@JJLRU-vid That’s a lovely compliment thank you, and a few have mentioned it to me. It does give me food for thought. I appreciate that.

Thank you and I’m glad you r hours it. I will definitely be doing both Loudon Hill and Byland as future projects.

i dont agree buddy you are going on one source not the general sources.

and templars you make me laugh LOL.

Hello Gordon Thanks for your comment and the points you have raised. The earliest mention of light cavalry, or horse of any kind on the Scots side is 63 years after the battle in John Barbour's account. None of the other sources (Vita, Lanercost, Trokelowe, Baker, Baston, Bernard etc Scalacronica some written within a year of the battle, mention Scots cavalry, but all independently agree that the Scots all fought on foot in 3 great divisions of infantry. There was if he had used light cavalry no where to move them between the Pelstream and the Bannockburn, the entire objective was to attack them in their camp in the Carse (an area of hard ground with pools of water in the undulations, not a marsh) and surprise them. The English mounted in great alarm the sources say when they saw how close the Scot’s likes of pikes had got to them. After the cavalry charges they could not move, the Scots pressed forward, English footsoldiers pressed against the cavalry, until the lines broke and the rout took place where many headed to the Forth where they were killed and drowned, and other scattered east towards the muddy banks of the Bannockburn where they perished. Every source, except Barbour, mentions a dense battle array of Scottish schiltroms.

Thank you for your point on the Templars also, i value everyone's opinion. There is no mention in the sources of Templars, and although it is likely Bruce did give refuge to Templars, they would have fought as individuals in his army and not as Templars. Once the English were penned in between the Pelstream and the Bannockburn, Bruce's masterstroke, there was a great jamming and pressing together of the cavalry and English foot (approx 17000), they were unable to move, outflank, or deploy in any way until the lines broke, they scattered, and the rout took place. The Templar order disbanded in 1312. The reasons Bruce won the battle is that he was a brilliant military strategist (he learned the hard way), had a year to prepare, knew the ground, and also knew the English well and that they were overconfident (Gloucester was his cousin), he was a charismatic leader who drew men to him. Thank you for watching and for your feedback. It is hugely appreciated. I also have a small future project to film involving the Templars in an area local to me.

@@robertthebruce-geniusofban647 Thanks for your detailed reply-I seem to remember the English knights captured then released on payment of ransom, later called the Bannockburn battle, the Battle of the Pools. Again, this suggests a difficult deployment and manoeuvre if you and your horse are over weighted in defensive armour!

Yes, considering the battlefield was over 6 square miles, findings deposited wherever, on their own, do not predict the Battlesite. I used to believe the Dryfield, but on my own study and research of every relevant source, the Dryfield is such a natural fortress, impenetrable by cavalry and foot. Bruce let the fortress do its job and in day1 had 3 points of entry to block, the medieval road at Milton Ford, between the bogs west of the borestone, and Moray had to defend the way up from the carse toward the castle. For day 2, I think it was impossible for English to penetrate the Dryfield, none of the sources say they got out their camp. But that they were taken by surprise and mounted in great co fusion…from their camp in the carse. Not a bog but hard ground enclosed by both Pelstream and Bannockburn with undulations in the ground that held water when wet, as they still do. This, sources mention the battle among the pools. I would love to hear your own thoughts… Fascinating stuff, Author William Scott created a justified map of the area, took him years, based on general Roy’s in 1750, fascinating stuff!!!

@@robertthebruce-geniusofban647 I have looked at this battle on a number of occasions. But for me it runs into the same problem that accounts of the Battle of Adrianople 378 do. We know who won, who was there, more or less what happened and that it happened a relatively short distance from a town or castle, but it's not clear exactly where it happened. And without some greater degree of physical evidence, I doubt it will be conclusively determined by future theories or models.

@@stephenhargreaves9324 I am recommending a book for you. The author I know who spent over 30 years on the battle. Genius of Bannockburn William Scott His evidence and proofs are remarkable!

That’s the truth of it! Bruce lost his early fights and learned hard from them since Methven 1306, and Dalry afterwards. Thanks for your feedback!

Not done yet then.

@@Warhead-haggis not done yet then, not over until it’s truly over!

Great comment, thank you!

@@robertthebruce-geniusofban647 Excellent video. Thank you.

@@sonsoffalstaff2600 I still have a long list of projects to do.

@@robertthebruce-geniusofban647 I will subscribe. Good luck.

Flowers of Scotland was written by two English men Scotland the Brave was written by an Irish man so sssshhhh

Thank you very much. We have likely passed each other, I visit mostly every month and like to study the ground in all seasons, all 6 square miles over both days. I hope you are enjoying my channel and thank you for your input.

@@robertthebruce-geniusofban647 Thank YOU for taking the time to reply…the two day review sounds interesting…

@@user-ui5tq6mc9p many thanks for your comments, interest, and passion!

Hello Thank you for your points. Referring to the sources, the English camped in the Carse of Balquhiderock. The Scots has successfully defended the Dryfield on day 1 of the battle. the sources say the battle took place among the pools, the pools which form in the undulations of the Carse provide essential water for the horses. Therefore, 'the encounter among he pools...' The sources mention how the Scots marched boldly out of the wood in the morning of day 2, and reached a position close to the cavalry lines. None of the sources, Vita, Lanercost, Trokelowe, Baker, Baston, Barbour mention the English making it out of their camp, what they do say is that they mounted in great alarm when the Scots lines of pikes got very close to them. The objective of denying them room to move and get up momentum for a cavalry charge. Once the charge took place, and successive charges in disarray, there was a jamming and no movement for a while, as the Scots closed off the Carse before, and English foot soldiers tried to press forward behind the cavalry. The battles on day 1 were at Milton Ford, entry to the new park, beyond St Ninians where Moray's schiltroms repulsed Clifford's retinue, and Edward Bruce who guarded the space between Milton and Halbert's bog Below the modern day heritage centre, likely saw outflanking action. I am going to refer 2 books for you that challenges and compares every available source of relevance: Bannockburn Revealed by William Scott Genius of Bannockburn by William Scott The author has spent 30 years walking the ground and researching the battle, studying the sources, and using topography, cartography, physics and math, in his quest to establish proofs and clarity on ALL sources available. The insight is truly amazing and it changed all of my views. My own research over many years has changed with clarity of the evidence provided by the all of sources. Your comments are most appreciated.

@@robertthebruce-geniusofban647 Thank you for your comprehensive reply to my comment. cheers.

@@gala1ish you are most welcome. I always believed the other stuff I was taught growing up, battle in Dryfield etc, until after a lot of research, studying the ground, and successive meetings with author William Scott on his work, that through careful study of every source, some previously not even translated, and collaborating all the accounts and studying the 6 square miles of both days, it really opened my eyes to Bruce’s plan for the battle. If you get a chance, do read Genius of Bannockburn by Scott, it is the best book on the topic.

@@robertthebruce-geniusofban647 Again, thank you for your information and ref. Just a we note, when I was a kid growing up (less than a kilometer from the flagstaff/battleaxe field) 1950's a Family member worked at the Murrays Hall quarry situated not far away. (google maps) I remember a pine tree growing on the top ring of the quarry called the Bunnety tree (as in bonnet) where the victors of the battle supposedly threw their bunnets up into the branches to celebrate their victory. At that time the company wanted to expand the quarry but the tree stood in the way and there was quite a bit of opposition due to the historical value of said tree, sorry I don't remember the outcome. Cheers.

@@gala1ish that’s a great piece of information. I wonder if it was near the bloody Fauld, beneath where the current statue is, where Edward Bruce defended areas between Halberts and Milton Bogs on the first day? I always love to hear these experiences from the locals. Thank you!

The entire battlefield over 2 days is 6 square miles, more condensed on the plains of the carse on day 2 between the pelstream and the Bannockburn. To my knowledge bits and pieces have been found but I am not familiar with the laws on metal detecting although I know some official stuff has been done.

@@robertthebruce-geniusofban647 There's a guy I follow on twitter who found pieces of a crossbow in the bank of the Bannockburn. Robert Baston, an English Carmelite friar who was an eyewitness to the battle, specifically states that crossbows were used on the English side.

Yes, the English army definitely caught unawares. Never expected a Scots attack, no one attacked heavy cavalry, who were all at the forefront mounting in great alarm, but the main key…trapped by the 2 bounding waters, the Pelstream and the Bannockburn.

You are absolutely right, he was much more than that. And his Bruce is epic in every way, much of what we do know about Bruce and his times would not be the same without him. Many writers, poets, of the day wrote in a medieval style which painted often angelic pictures of the heroes. He was well looked after by Robert II, and was a boy when Bruce passed away. His works and compilations go beyond entertainment as he also recorded much that is very valuable. It’s only when there are other sources to compare with one can draw conclusions…

@@robertthebruce-geniusofban647 Yes indeed. There is always the danger of 'printing the legend.'

@@japhfo Your comments are greatly appreciated and contribute to the topics and questions we have surrounding these remarkable events. Thank you for doing so. This is my passion!

@@Action4Dogs My pleasure.

I’ll be doing a film on their abode at Temple, Balantradoch, in Midlothian in the near future.

@@robertthebruce-geniusofban647 I live round the corner and have cycled up to Temple a few times, plus their ruined church nearby. Spooky place, well worth a visit.

@@johnstuart7244 you are not very far from me then…

Interesting…

@@robertthebruce-geniusofban647 Why do you say Interesting, it's against all you know, almost equally matched, yet a great victory.

@@paulyoung4422 interesting because many historians generally bunk Barbour’s odds giving the English army at 100,000, and Scot’s at 30,000. The only time such odds in numbers are mentioned is 63 years after the battle. So what they’ve done is narrow down the numbers but retain the odds of 3/4-1. No mention of any disparity in all of the other sources written much closer, some eyewitness and others within a year of the battle. I find that interesting… The Scots did indeed achieve a phenomenal victory, because Bruce was a genius and his plan worked perfectly.

Hi, thanks for your comments. The sources tell us that after the cavalry charges a great jamming together occurred and there was no movement for a while, and that the English footsoldiers were trying but could not get into the fight because the leading division was in the way, which would have caused immense pressure on those at the front with no where to go, until the horses were killed, knights dragged down and slain and then the Scot’s broke through the ranks and the rout occurred as they broke in panic. Many of the footsoldiers from the back would not have understood what was happening until the rout took place, I don’t think they would have intentionally all be trying to squeeze the Scot’s. Then the flight would have been chaos. Some were fighting furiously, including King Edward who had to be led off the field as the Scots surged forward with momentum and in number. Then it was survival mode. The carse was chosen as camp because the pools of water were there (one can count over 30 even today after heavy rain). The ground is generally hard otherwise so perfect for a camp. The crossings over the Bannockburn near the great bend would have been made very muddy and slippery with the army crossing it the day before and attempting now to recross it. At the great bend it can be as much as 10-12 foot deep in places and treacherous with deep sides. Another eyewitness count says once battle was engaged it was over in one fleeting hour, so after the charge was thwarted and the beginning of the rout took place it would have been very quick. I don’t know if you have walked the ground around the carse of Balquhiderock but you can get a real sense and feel of the place and how it unfolded with the current day features of the land.

Indeed, nationalism, or the concept of it was at its very earliest roots. Bruce would be known as King of Scot’s rather than King of Scotland, whereas Edward and his predecessors were Kings of England. It was absolutely a feudal system… Thank you very much for your comment Stephen!

@@robertthebruce-geniusofban647 It is always a pleasure to discuss history as history :)

@@stephenhargreaves9324 indeed it is, my passion!

@@dunkirk1581 That’s it right there!

They would have been well provisioned by battle stage, but once the booty recovered from the invader’s wagon train was collected, and the dead stripped off everything, it would have made a rich collection. Likely, early 4am on 2nd day, they had a small sup of porridge or something before battle. The English however, tired and drunk from the night before, not in their best state.

I think you might be thinking of culloden, where the Jacobites were starving and had little to no provisions.

@@robertpalmer7693 the English at Bannockburn were very well supplied.

@@robertthebruce-geniusofban647 yeah mate I know. I was talking g to the guy that asked if us Scots were starving. I agree with you and loved the video.

@@robertpalmer7693 thanks for that!

This was in the 1300s . The union wasn't formed until the 1700s and that's 300 years of unity you think we're going to just give up, for what reason exactly?

@@petes5041 it matters that we know the facts and facts are passed down as opposed to myth. Of course the outcome is etched in history, but the truth about location, numbers, and how it was won and lost is important for future generations. Preserving history from tons of concrete being poured into our heritage with modern development matters a great deal. For years I believed in the myths until getting deep on research. Why, how, where, and who made it happen matters greatly.

There is some circumstantial evidence that the Templar tradition survived in Scotland. The society may have gone incognito or 'underground'. These phenomena happened in other cultures and traditions, for example, after the Southern Shaolin Temple was burned down by govt, forces, six surviving Shaolin monks went on to create the southern combat styles in China-often hidden from view and until recent historic times "closed door schools" to strangers. I studied in one open to western students in the 1980's in London.

That’s an awesome experience. Thanks for sharing that!

There is no historical evidence of such an intervention. By the time of their dissolution the Templars were mostly middle-aged bankers. By 1314, no Templar would have seen action for twenty five years. According to Dr Steve Tibble there is a record of two Templars in Scotland (Both English). See Dr. Steve Tibble, 'Templars: The Knights Who Made Britain.'

Aye,and Regiment, upon Regiment, of Cumberlands Redcoats were Lallanders, (Lowland Scots), there were even some Heilanders,The Argyle Militia for example (The Argyle and Sutherlands,later).

This is just a modern myth, it's true that some of the templars might of escaped to Scotland due to the Bruce being excommunicated at the time but there is not one account of them being present at this battle unless maybe they were dismounted and in amongst the schiltroms.