CJ over talks the people he's interviewing. I like that he's excited but he should have just talked about each product himself instead of having the people he's interviewing just stand there shaking their heads in agreement
You did well but if you ask a question let them answer. I have watched Joel's videos and he knows the answers you were asking. Just slow it down a step or too and you will be great. Look forward to seeing more from you soon.
People should be really carefull with this SPAN stuff. If they go out of business, there will be no mobile apps and no servers to turn on and off your things. Making it a dumb expensive electrical panel. It's also a security risk to have someone (a server) able to control your home, I really hope they offer some "local" only controls and apis to be able to use the panel without their fancy mobile app.
I kind of agree with you about Span, but there are other smart panels on the market like Leviton. They have been around for ages and they are extremely established in the electrical game. I thinks Span's biggest problem is going to be cost. The unit is $4,500. To expensive for the average family.
I had the same thought. It's one thing if someone's smart switch bricks because the company goes out of business, but it's another thing if someones $5K smart panel becomes inoperable because SPAN goes out of business or abandons the old product. For technical people, adding local APIs and local control mitigates this (and the security) problems to a degree, but that isn't a viable solution for most people. Someone else mentioned Leviton, I don't know if they have local control or not, but just because you trust the company to stay in business, doesn't mean you can trust them not to loose interest in their current line of smart devices.
Great conversation here. I was wondering, how is it connected to the internet during a power outage? Does it have LTE? I wonder how many assumptions their algorithms make during an outage… first push notification to the customer, “power is down!” Curious how accurate it is
Great point! It's unfortunate to see other industries following the same proprietary path towards obsolescence, abandoned products, with failed companies rendering equipment useless. It's time for a serious discussion about open systems, open API and standards to prevent this from happening.
As a student of cybersecurity, I am constantly gaining a deeper understanding of the trade-offs between convenience and security in the context of smart devices. One of the challenges I have identified is the long-term support provided by manufacturers for these devices. Specifically, there is a question of whether companies such as SPAN will continue to provide updates to their older panels when new panels are released. Currently, most residential electrical panels are not connected to the network, thus rendering them immune to cyberattacks. However, this situation may change in the future as the number of connected devices continues to grow.
I'm with you, I have been very turned off of "smart" technology the more I learn of the massive risks that come with them in regards to privacy and security.
What has happened in the past is that legacy hardware gets reverse engineered by a community of supporters. But what we need is End-of-life Legislation so that when a manufacturer no longer provides support for a product, it goes open source.
This is also why all of these smart home devices need to start supporting local control. It boggles my mind that this $4k+ panel doesn't include MQTT support. It's totally inappropriate to tie your home circuit breaker to the cloud.
Given that people own their homes for decades while companies come and go, smart breaker panels should be based on open industry standards. Perhaps using local Modbus control, with cloud-integration being an optional add-on.
If the internet stops working due to wars or catastrophic events, hopefully all these high tech devices will at least work as their dummy equivalent. If such event was to occur, getting food, water, electricity, shelter and defense will become the concern.
Video started great! Smart panels in IBS 2023. 10mins on Span, 3 mins on Eaton smart breakers, then 3 mins on hafele cabinet lighting, and 4 mins on Halo lighting... Meanwhile you can see a power related booth in the Span video behind CJ that says smart energy and power systems. I was fully expecting him to walk right over to the Savant booth but he went to Eaton. Then didn't go back to any smart panel products...
These devices are useful if you live in an area with a poor electric grid and use backup generators and/or batteries and solar power. Security and continued support would be a major concern.
I can't tell you how many hours I have spent wanting to look at an app for my electrical panel. I'll be out at dinner with friends and I can't even focus on the conversation because all I can think about is "I wish I could remotely turnoff the circuit to my toaster" or "I wonder how many amps my fish tank is pulling right now" or "When is Jennifer going to stop talking about that mole she had removed so we can move on getting dessert ordered." This stuff will be a game changer for me.
SENSE has what you're looking for. Wire it into the panel and off you go - for much less money. Smart breakers sounded interesting to get notifications if a circuit is drawing too much but overall this stuff was expensive and I've not ever needed to remotely flip a silly breaker.
what about hacking on span? having a source from outside the house take over the unit. This is something I am cautious about because house will be on batteries with backup generator.
Lots of great stuff out there. As the #1 electrical contractor channel on RU-vid, I don't think electricians take advantage of all the. Add on and residual income there is out there by installing smart panels, low voltage, solar etc.
In the process of getting Span certified now, took too long to be able to install in the current passive house were doing. looking forward to trying them out.
I would love to see SPAN come out with a larger panel. 32 spaces is too few in my opinion and ultimately why I just went with SquareD for now main and sub panel replacements. The price is really steep for a panel that doesn't fit my 1977 200A circuits even with the dedicated sub panel in the garage. I'm pretty lost as to who their target market actually is, as a fully electric home would have more than 32 circuits, and smaller homes likely have a smaller budget. I guess extremely custom/large homes in wine country in CA might just go for two panels but, the SPAN app has a really clunky multi-panel integration setup (treated as different homes entirely). I don't know, just hoping they polish it all up in a few years and don't go out of business.
I installed one for a customer that insisted. I was disappointed. It has a built in transfer switch which only works with 2 inverters. (Solar Edge and Tesla). Almost all of my Solar Edge inverters have failed and had to be replaced. So, I am reluctant to install those now. I like microinverter based systems. But, the transfer switch in the Span panel wont work with that. It could if SPAN chose to program the panels for that. Also, the SPAN panel doesn't have enough space at the top for a retrofit directly into the back. You have to come in from the top which creates all kinds of problems. They could have just made the panel 2 inches taller to allow that. Also, 32 circuits get used pretty fast.
A quicklink wafer is MORE than a traditional wafer. Even though it doesn't have a driver, box and like 50% less components. Their profit margin is insane on these
I own a very large solar business. The absolute best choice for solar currently is Enphase microinverters and they are not in sync with SPAN. Enphase solar > span. In 2023 if you are even debating solar in the future, get the new Schneider smart panel instead. No bs. And if you want the most badass, real time adjustable EV OUTLET (chargers are actually on the EV itself) get one that wants a 100A main breaker for future proofing
I wouldn't put anything on my home but Enphase at this point. I know Sol-Ark has their 2 and 4 panel MI either available now or coming but reliability > cost savings. I'd need to see them in the field for a while.
@@hmurchison8123 Sol Ark hybrid is great for ground mounts and we use them a lot in those situstions and for people that are actually off grid full time. Otherwise Enphase is undefeated. Im getting a batch of the brand new Sol Ark micros in this quarter and we are currently deploying some Aptos 4-1 micros but nowhere near enough data for me to make them available to gen public. Their solar modules however are some of the best we’ve ever tested
@@mattbrew11 I've checked out the Aptos stuff in passing. Looks solid. What states are you covering Matt? I used to commission for a Sunpower dealer in Arkansas . In a year we swapped maybe 7 IQ level Enphase micros and a handful of the older M series stuff. I'm sold on their reliability.
So, for the Span panel, what happens when the company web servers go down? What happens when my WAN connection goes down? I know I'm screwed when the power goes out at my house, unless I install a battery pack or generator. But if I do have a battery pack or generator and I can't talk to the company servers for some reason, am I still screwed? And what happens when Span goes out of business? I work for AWS, so I'm all-in for the cloud and the data -- For normal operations. But I'm also all-in for backups. And for continuing to operate in the face of multiple failures, including when the cloud is no longer accessible.
If I have an Eaton panel (which I do) why would I buy a Span panel when all that is required it buying new Smart Breakers for my existing Eaton panel? I sure hope the Eaton Smart Breakers work on my panel board from 1995. I just emailed Eaton to see if it will work for me.
Very cool Dave. Agree if that works it’s a killer upgrade. Let us know what you find. Maybe I need to fly to Denver for a video??? Would LOVE to see your current camera setup.
@@buildshow that would be fun! I am looking into them now, they are a bit pricey but maybe I will install a couple of them to see how good the software is. I am trying to find reviews on these breakers on YT but I am not finding any. It looks like I can order them from Home Depot.
I just heard back from Eaton support after I sent them a pic of my panel and they said, "you can't use a smart breaker because that is a CH load center with 3/4 inch wide breakers. Currently, we are only doing the smart breakers in the BR and BAB (1 inch wide). I apologize for the inconvenience."
Sorry, I cannot justify $4,500 for a 200 AMP panel. The Leviton 200 AMP Smart panel gets you some of the SPAN features in a "white" panel for around $400. With wireless monitoring with statistics and the ability to turn off circuits remotely. It does not have all the features of SPAN. So decide if that's worth #4,000 to you. It has the nice feature of wiring up before you insert the breakers. Check it out and spend that $4K on an extra Tesla Powerwall battery.
Hard Pass $4500, some startup, require certification, even to change a breaker, smart devices IOT (data to internet) and some app, has ownership transfer. Could be a disaster in 10 years, app gets outdated, Matter standard (vs current cloud), etc etc etc. Way too expensive.
I am from Oregon and my PGE will increase 17% January 1, 2024, with the minimum wage being $15.40 in a two bedroom apartment it’s $1800 per month With a currently PGE monthly payment of $600 per month we definitely need to look for some thing more affordable for our family
And eaton integrating the surge protection into the panel is getting pretty common. Now they offer them in a two-breaker size square that installs like a breaker as well. And now that whole home surge suppression is required by NEC, will likely see more and more panels start to have it as a feature that's part of the panel itself and not requiring you to take up two breakers just for a protection device
SPAN sounds like my "smart tv" that has turned into just another TV as its proprietary hardware specifc apps are no longer supported, hence I am back to using a free roku to run apps like Netflix, RU-vid, etc. Smart breakers sound like a better idea.
Tesla wall connector allows you to “throttle” the load to the circuit…it doesn’t just run “flat out” unless you have it installed to the required 60A breaker. Also, there are electric on demand water heaters that utilize 3 50A breakers or 150A total which is more than double what current home EV chargers draw from home wall connectors…the chargers are built into the EV themselves.
The smart breakers are really kinda sad, the last I looked all they can do is remotely trip the breaker, not turn it back on. The remote trip didn't cost them anything to add, beyond an additional wire because the functionality is already built into a GFCI breaker. Then they are hooking that remote trip up to the cloud. I don't have any confidence that these companies can be bothered to cloud connect things like this with even minimal security. How long before some remote hack trips all the breakers for lulz? I have a strict requirement for IoT things, they must have a published local API and be designed such that a majority of the functionality works without an internet connection. That way when they give up on the cloud service the item has a chance of continuing to work and you don't have to trust that they bothered to secure their product.
It’s cool and all, but it’s not $4,500 cool. If you want a smart panel that’s solar ready, get a Leviton. I have one, but didn’t pay for the smart breakers, but if you wanted them you could get the panel & 20 smart breakers for around $1,500. That panel is rock solid.
13:05 Eaton also has a double pole whole panel surge protector as well. But it's cool that this one is already part of the panel. It won't take up 2 slots.
There are plenty of double pole surge protectors that allow connection to a downstream load. So it uses 2 slots but those 2 slots are used just like any other breaker.
@@sabregunner1 I mean, they might be compatible, I thought both could measure load and turn off breakers as their primary features. My understanding is it's mostly a question of smart panel + dumb breakers or smart breakers + dumb panel.
I read about a company called Atom Power in North Carolina that's making smart breakers and EV chargers. Their breaker technology is actually controlled with solid state electronics, and it's a lot more capable than the stuff from Span. I think Span just gets more marketing buzz because they're in California and they copied their product style from Tesla, which copied their product style from Apple.
The REAL smart panel for a house is the one that you put in and it just plain works for 50 years without having to spend more money on it replacing junk breakers, software updates, failed terminations, burned up bussing, broken plastic parts, and of course just plain old obsolescence. Install a Square D QO panel right up front and it’ll never cost you another penny unless you make changes. I like to see all the new stuff but in reality 99% of this stuff is just fads that come and go pretty quickly and replacement parts get scarce real fast once the newest thing comes out and your system goes out of production.
Can you simply put the product links of the items shown in the description? You can't always catch what the presenter is saying. For example, the LED lights with the contact points in the cabinet. No idea what he says.
If you're looking for something smart but a little cheaper then span Leviton just came out with a smart panel not to long ago but it does use proprietary breakers so that's a down side. Still pretty spendy but reasonable considering the smarts. It's the first load center they've ever made so I was gonna give it a couple years and see if it lasts.
Span is great, but does it work without being connected to the internet ? The beginning of the video the guy is talking about a power outage situation ?
Appreciate the interview, but it would be great to give them the opportunity to pitch it instead of hear about the interviewers experience. Hard to get much from this type of forum.
On the subject of Smart Panels, ask yourself these questions. If the company goes out of business will you still be able to use all the features? How secure is their system? What is their privacy police / TOS? Are they selling your data? Finally the most important question, are the smart panels open source? Because I guarantee you wont be able to access the panels remotely if they go out of business, they will get hacked, there is no privacy and the company will sell your data. There's nothing smart about a smart panel.
After talking about how the SPAN panel has "so much intelligence built into it that it surpasses everything else on the market" (minute 1:10) you later say about the Eaton panel that "hits a mark that no other company actually has right now" (minute 10:40). Why not compare the two panels and discuss what is better about each one, what features are missing from each one and in what situations should you pick one over the other?
People are missing the Span message and driving off into the weeds. Typical home backup with ESS means a hard wired sub panel containing migrated breakers for all critical loads. The homeowner must decide at installation which loads make the cut. What if you didn’t have to do this? What if your Main Service Panel had contractor and Current Transformer behind standard breakers allowing for opening/closing the circuit and consumption? Further what if you could do away with the sun panel and make ANY circuit “critical” with a simple ad hoc choice in the app? That is Span.
@@mattbrew11 The new Schneider Home system with the Pulse/Boost/Inverter blew me away. After they shipped the Energy Center I didn't think they'd come with a follow up so soon. I've been inside the XW Pro and looking at how thin the new Inverter is , i'm keen on how they upped the kwh and made it smaller.
Whew - that was a painful video. I scrubbed through at least half of it. First half of the video was a span commercial, but a terrible one. Rest of it was just awkward and mostly uninformative.
The common thread (threat) is security. They need to follow a Victron model, local control, MQTT, etc. if you want to opt into cloud, so be it but I’m not held hostage by a closed system. I can’t see being bent over for this price point either. Leviton isn’t better (you can turn off a breaker remotely but it needs a physical reset - DOH!)
CJ you're being deceptive when you say you still don't have $10,000 upgrade. If your service only can handle 30 amps a 1,000 dollar charger won't change that. Having just bought a stage 2 charger for 1/3 the price I can as a customer can change the available amperage in seconds( 15-50). Also my car has software that controls the charging speed, I have it set that @ 8 pm it slow charges tell 6:15 when it auto warms and I head to work.
I'd add that $10k must be the wine country custom home in CA price because, I just upgraded to 200A and it was half that after I upgraded things beyond the basics in SE Michigan.
Thanks for the feedback! The $10,000 is only an example, it can vary drastically by region, or utility company requirements. I agree, regulating the charge parameters can be done within the vehicle, but it’s hit or miss how easy it is from manufacturer. (Ask the ford lighting guys) it isn’t as seem-less as Tesla. Regardless, it seems to me that managing all this from one app (in this example span) is in advantage… for example being able to control individual loads… like… maybe your hot tub doesn’t turn on, or both cars don’t charge, or your heat pump doesn’t turn on at certain times when you are limited with the size of your electrical service and the amount of electrical demands you might have. (Or quite possibly it’s not even an option for some home Owners to increase their electrical service size) this is why products like this excite me. (Maybe too much sometimes) Again as most products, Span isn’t for everyone, and there is no reason for me to be deceptive. Sorry if it came across this way! It’s all very new technology and can be useful for some, while not for others. Thanks for watching, I’m always here is you want to chat!
@@CJ_Electric the average customer doesn’t have a clue how load shed. Only a minor percentage of people will truly track their usage and try and cut back. When they come home from work they want to charge their car, cook some dinner, catch up on laundry, and then relax in the hot tub. If you shut down the hot tub for 3 hours the temp will drop and have no circulation. That in turn will cause the heater to run longer regaining proper temp. By shutting down the dryer that just causes laundry to backup. Now if The person can’t cook dinner because the car is charging they would most likely be upset. And if you turn the ac compressor off at the same time… I know I wouldn’t want to be in that house. Yes this is the extreme examples but again, the average person wants conveniences at the same time. I would rather spend the money on upgrading the feed into the house with either a 200-320amp service. Technology and software changes so fast that there is no way these “smart” devices and panels will last. It’s planned obsolescence. The manufacturers can’t make money unless they get rid of things. Electronics is grate for some things but not everything. After 30 years being an electrician, I have seen and installed some amazing electrical systems. Some have lasted since I installed them, and some were replaced in just a few year. Classic example was a restaurant had a dimmer system installed and only lasted 3 years. The manufacturer discontinued it for a different version. To program the different scenes you had to save it onto a 3-1/2 disc. The drive went out, couldn’t get a new drive. Ripped out system and installed manual dimmers because the system was to difficult for the workers to dim the lights. That’s why I try and keep things as simple as possible. The average customer just wants the lights on and things to work at their convenience. I’m in the process of upgrading from a 125 to a 320 at my house. With future potential EV’s, a desire for a hot tub, and converting from gas to electric heat, stove, water heater, and dryer (only if forced to) my service requirements won’t meet that. I truly think that all electric for everything is not the best route to be taking. Look at the south with the ice storms and tornadoes. Electrical grids go down and take sometimes weeks to rebuild. I really think a hybrid approach would be a much better option to start with allowing the infrastructure to get built up properly and in place before more load is thrown onto it. The more electronic products that require web based support requires massive data centers to support and power consumption in the home. All this new stuff the just keeps adding more strain on the grid. Just think your fancy electrical panel with everything shut off and unplugged will be wasting electricity trying to monitor the panel and then waste power connecting to the net. Just keep adding more phantom loads. Sorry, it’s just another wasteful product.
Not going to lie, I literally don't want anything "smart" in my house. I've worked in IT my entire life and wouldn't trust it with something as important as my house (or car). Unfortunately it is getting difficult to buy things without a wifi connection, even things like ovens and refrigerators (rolling eyes)
Holy crap watching that first interview was so painful 🤦🏼♂️ CJ bro let’s let the guy talk about their product. Watch the reps face when he can’t get a word in edgewise 🤦🏼♂️
I don’t see the value nor added safety in these panels. Concept seems ok but more a bridge to far more advanced technology that will be standard in 5 years. As custom builder in Boulder area and BigSky, we’ve offered these as upgrade to last 4 builds, all declined. Probably in large part due to my skepticism but most saw no benefit. Id rather install a known bombproof component like Square D QO PON panel. If folks desire a ‘smart circuit’ analysis, we are already seeing smart outlets. I believe these will be standard in 5 years where I can monitor each and every receptacle, not just each circuit at circuit level.
