What Happened to all the Chemise a la Reine?

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Thank you for your patience, this was a long one to edit. Please enjoy!
MAG Dress- manchesterartgallery.org/coll...
chemise-a-la-reine.blogspot.co...
TdJ Dress- Chemise à la reine 1785-89, musée de la toile de jouy, photos from costumehysteric.blogspot.com/
Met Dress- www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...
Great Summary- fashionhistory.fitnyc.edu/178...
Great Collections of Paintings of Chemise a la Reine- jeannedepompadour.blogspot.com...
A Stitch in Time Chemise a la Reine Episode- • A Stitch in Time S01E0...
Did the Chemise a la Reine have Caribbean origins?- earlyamericanists.com/2018/09...
Robe Volante- www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-...
Colonialism and the Cotton trade
Empire of Cotton- www.amazon.com/Empire-Cotton-...
Free Article Summarizing Empire of Cotton- www.theatlantic.com/business/...
Indian Textile Trade- www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles...
More Chemise a la Reine Costume Content
‪@Sewstine‬ - • I made Marie Antoinett...
‪@MorganDonner‬ - • I tie-dyed an 18th cen...
‪@bernadettebanner‬ - • Modern Marie Antoinett...
‪@AJaneiteSews‬ - • I Made A Chemise Gown ...
Image Credits
[1]- Angelica Kauffman, Lady Elizabeth Foster, 1785
[2]- Attributed to Antoine Vestier (1740 - 1824), Portrait of a woman on a terrace, 1780s
[3]- Vigee LeBrun, Marie Antoinette in a Chemise Dress, 1783, Met Museum
[4]- Vigee Le Brun, Self Portrait with Cerise Ribbons, c. 1782, Met Museum
[5]- Chemise, c. 1780, American, Met Museum
[6]- Vigee Le Brun, Marie Antoinette with a Rose, 1783, Palace of Versailles
[7]- en.chateauversailles.fr/disco...
[8]- “Marie Antoinette in her hamlet at Versailles,” by Charles Gustave Housez. 1867.
[9]- Romney, Mrs. Billington as Saint Cecilia, 1787-88, Museum of Fine Arts Boston
[10]- David, Mde and Msr Lavoisier, 1788, Met Museum
[11]- Jen Juel, Princess Louise Augusta of Denmark, 1787
[12]- Mary Chichester by Francis Alleyne (Burton Constable Hall)
[13]- Henri-Pierre Danloux, Harriott Manningham, 1793
Chemise a la Reine, Manchester Art Gallery
Chemise à la reine 1785-89, musée de la toile de jouy, photos from costumehysteric.blogspot.com/.jpg
[14]- Dress, French, c. 1785, Met Museum
[15]- Robe Volante, c. 1730, French, Met Museum
[16]- Dmitry Levitzky, Portrait of Nastas’ya Levitzkaya 1783
[17]- Carle Vernet, Merveilleuse and Incroyable, Paris National Convention, c. 1796
[18]- Pongee (Wild) Silk Dress by Liberty & Co. Ltd. (ca 1895); © Victoria and Albert Museum, London
[19]- Dress, 1804-14, French, Met Museum
[20]- Gelatin Sizing, Diderot Encyclopedie
[21]- Sorting Rags into Grades of Varying quality and strength, Diderot Encyclopedie
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Комментарии : 133

@enixon8268 2 года назад

As a conservator you are probably aware of the rarity of extant aprons from any period. This has been attributed to them being a utility garment that was washed frequently then made into rags and used to death. Most extant garments tend to be the most formal items one would own and as thus "kept for best". It seems to me, (with no conservancy training but I am a trained historical costumer) that Chemise ala reine was worn more as a daily dress like a "wrapper". Anything worn daily would simply be worn out. I like your theory on reuse of textiles for other styles/ items and for paper. Both fates are plausible.

@costumeandconservation 2 года назад

This is an interesting thought. The chemise a la reine would have been pretty fancy, especially with that expensive import textile, but was not considered “formal”

@roxannlegg750 2 года назад

Also - others have found unfashionabkle gowns were frequently passed down to servants or friends who re purposed them...the fact that any remain is amazing.

@merlijn-lottekrommenhoek4389 2 года назад

Keeping white fabrics clean and white was extremely labour intensive and therefore expensive. Daily wear of these delicate fabrics that won't hold well in the 18th century washing process that used caustic lye solutions and physical strain from the washing, batring and mangling, just doesn't seem very practical. I am a trained historian, but this hypothesis needs experimental archeology rather than traditional research methods to find an answer I'm afraid. Could be fun though...

@stichhalbierer9329 2 года назад

I think a reuse of that delicate fabric would be little garments for baptisms and/or dead children. Considering the birth rate and child mortality of that time, they needed much more of that clothes than we today. So, in the end, they just rot away

@monotropa_uniflora 2 года назад

@@costumeandconservation That's a theory I could get behind. As someone not that familiar with antique fashion, my mind went to these 100% cashmere straight-legged pants you see middle- to high-priced brands sell these days. It's a pricy, not very durable material sold as a bottom while relatively thin to make it flowy and comfortable. I'd probably not wear pants this thin outside my home or around strangers and from the few cashmere tops I own, I know how easily they can end up with damages like little holes - I wouldn't want to imagine how fast they wear down as pants. So you end up with a comfortable, delicate, premium material in a fashionable yet informal style that people would likely wear at home - I could imagine Chemise a la Reine probably being the cashmere-pants equivalent to the upper class back then, just even more rare and exclusive.

@magoboroka6757 2 года назад

Considering how Marie Antoinette's life ended, it wouldn't be a surprise to me that a type of garment that basically represented her and those close to her had been destroyed.

@adisynking1499 Год назад

My thoughts exactly! Along with being remade into other gowns

@EmeraldAngelEyes Год назад

Definitely a distinct possibility

@dorothywillis1 2 года назад

One of Jane Austen's characters throws light on the uses of muslin. Henry Tilney is talking about his sister's buying habits. “But then you know, madam, muslin always turns to some account or other; Miss Morland will get enough out of it for a handkerchief, or a cap, or a cloak. Muslin can never be said to be wasted. I have heard my sister say so forty times, when she has been extravagant in buying more than she wanted, or careless in cutting it to pieces.” By the way, his sister Eleanor, "always wears white." I suspect the expensive material was reused that way.

@beth12svist 2 года назад

I kept waiting for you to mention accessories among the possible reuses. All those fine white caps, fichus and chemisettes that were popular through most of the 19th century could have easily been made out of chemise dresses, and unlike with dresses, with those small items we'd have no evidence that they started out in life as something else. :-)

@eleonore59830 2 года назад

"Chemise à la reine" could be translated to "chemise in the Queen's fashion", "à la" means that in that context I believe !

@AliciaB. 2 года назад

correct ! (source : I'm french)

@eleonore59830 2 года назад

@@AliciaB. I am too haha

@elizabethclaiborne6461 2 года назад

It translates into “the Queens underwear”. A la means of the. Don’t y’all take languages in school anymore?

@AliciaB. 2 года назад

@@elizabethclaiborne6461 No it doesn't. 'Of the' in french is 'De la'. 'A la' can sometimes mean 'of the' (as in : 'C'est la faute à la police') but it's VERY informal/childish, if not derogatory, and not something that would be used in 18th century Versailles. As already stated, french is my mother tongue ; and I use this phrase in my everyday conversations so I bloody well know what I'm talking about, thank you very much.

@eleonore59830 2 года назад

@@elizabethclaiborne6461 I am french, it does not. It would be "Chemise DE la reine" for "The queen's underwear"

@meghanmcgowan7748 2 года назад

I think another part of what may have contributed to the serious reusability potential of these dresses is kind of the way they're constructed as opposed to other 1780s gowns. There's comparatively minimal shaping, so there ends up being more really big panels in a completed chemise a la reine, and once you pack all the gathers in there it's a lot of fabric! When you've made something like a fitted bodice, once it's cut into shape there's only a few other things it can be made into, but with a chemise a la reine, just spread it out, remove whatever channel business you've got going on for the gathers and you could probably cut an entire new gown out of it, especially if it's the much slimmer neoclassical style and especially if it's for a younger or smaller person like a daughter. If you've got a dress that packs that kind of usable volume of precious fabric into one article of clothing, you bet you're going to make another complete dress out of it once it's gone out of fashion. I certainly would!

@meghanmcgowan7748 2 года назад

I would guess it could be a contributing factor to the rarity of the robe volante as well. Same concept where it's a gown with a ton of fabric in it that's easier to reuse and reshape into something smaller or more fitted.

@jessicav2031 2 года назад

Excellent! The style has such an iconic association with Marie Antoinette that it seems likely most of them were destroyed in the French revolution. The idea that they might have been reused to make paper is at least comforting, but I can't imagine anyone keeping anything associated with the Queen in such a bloody witch-hunt environment!

@karissaclay3833 2 года назад

I was going to say something similar. Especially among the upper class that were exicuted, most everything would've been ransacked and burned or later sold. However i belive that the ones surviving after the french revolution were repurposed into shifts or later styles of dress rather than simply throwing out what would most likely still be good fabric and thats why we have so few examples.

@methanol3835 2 года назад

Yes, the "A Stitch In Time" episode made it sound like the style was deeply connected to the idea of the aristocracy. People would definitely have been eager to erase that image. I suspect most people would have reused the fabric rather than throwing the garments on the fire, but in the heat of the moment, who knows, lol.

@Bunny-ch2ul 2 года назад

I feel like how imminently reusable the fabric is plays a large role in why there are so few left today. The more high fashion empire style gowns are much more constructed than the Chemise a la Reine. The Chemise a la Reine is basically made out of giant rectangles of fabric, with little to no decoration. That's much easier to repurpose than the fabric in a comparably high fashion empire style dress. You also need to consider what came into fashion after each style. The Chemise a la Reine is easily transformed into an empire style gown. An Empire gown isn't easily turned into a 1820s gown. There isn't typically enough fabric, and it's not really the right fabric either. It makes sense that Empire gowns are far more common. I also don't really get the sense than a Chemise a la Reine was something that even wealthy people would really own in multiples. There just aren't a ton of occasions to wear them. You wouldn't wear it for formal occasions, but it's also not loungewear. It's too expensive and delicate to wear for something you'd need more casual clothing for, like traveling or sport. Empire dresses on the other hand were something you'd get more wear out of because depending on the design, they had pretty specific functions. The Chemise a la Reine in context, unless you were frolicking in Le Petit Trianon, or walking through the garden follies on your estate, has almost no purpose. It's mostly fashion for fashion's sake.

@francesgrimble9394 Год назад

If this style was commonly worn in the (hot) Caribbean, I wonder if there are any extant examples there?

@roxannlegg750 2 года назад

I believed that the Chemise a la Reine was a fad - a strong fashion fad, but short lived. The reason being largely thus: - the fabric was just as expensive as silk, maybe even more so, but it represented the loose frivolity and gayity of relaxation and breaking of court dress rules, which was frowned upon, despite the comfort it provided, esp in the heat. As such few would have been brave enough to order one and wear it, less they be ostracised by peers. France also has hotter regions than England, so it was probably more popular there for this reason. And altho converting them into Regency gowns was a good idea, I believe that in the revolution, with the crowds trashing many estates, the white cotton gowns would have been pilfered by the masses and either burned, or used by them. OR - as the the extremely wealthy were often a little careless with the end life of their gowns (given the wealth one would have needed to afford one) they most likely saw them as "just a cotton dress" and over time probably stolen and remade by servants, gifted to friends etc. This was shown to be the case with Worth gowns...A specific case where by a huge trunk of Worth gowns of the Edwardian era were gifted to their servants and friends, and some were sold on. Very expensive gowns just gifted to servants - because they coudl afford to. It was a small by line in a book that Kathy Hay spoke about in a video she did a couple of years ago. SO - given the relative rareity of them in the first place, the shortness of the fashion fad, combined with the mathematicis of percentage of preservation dynamics (including being eaten by moths and other insects when stashed away in trunks when no longer fashionable ) and how they dissipate into time via a variety of ways...Im surprised there are any at all still to this day. Not many women are painted anyway wearing them - as a whole - and IMHO - there is prob a few to be found in old castles in forgotten trunks etc, but fads are seen and as quick as they arrived, just vanish.

@merlijn-lottekrommenhoek4389 2 года назад

Very interesting topic, but I don't think the paper industry hypothesis holds up very well and that is for a very particular reason. A lot of people don't realise this, but it takes worn out garments to be made into paper. As a book historian and analytical bibliographer that has conducted quite a bit of research into book production in premodern Europe, I have several notes regarding the paper industry of the late 18th and early 19th century. Maybe this is helpful in your proces! Love the theorizing in your video and the discussion here, so I thought I could expand on the topic a bit, as I am fascinated by it and quite passionate about it too

@roaringgirl7079 2 года назад

This was FASCINATING! Do you have any recommendations for further reading?

@carolevonaarberg472 2 года назад

Wow. Please do a video. So interesting.

@janamiller273 2 года назад

I also am interested in further reading recommendations!

@MarthaSpizziri 2 года назад

But I wonder if the chemises would have worn out faster than other items because of the very fine fabric they were made of. I can’t imagine they would stand up to washing with lye very well, and since the dresses were white they may have needed washing more often than other good dresses.

@melissashiels7838 Год назад

I'm glad I watched the video, just so I could read your comment!

@katherinemorelle7115 2 года назад

Super interesting! I wouldn’t be surprised if it was a bit of all three. Muslin of that quality was ridiculously expensive at the time, so it may the very upper class would have access to that much of it. Even taking into account that the material did get cheaper in the next few decades, there’s also the fact that regency dresses used a LOT less fabric than a chemise a la reine. So even if an upper middle class person could afford some nice Indian muslin the likelihood of them affording enough for that particular gown? Pretty unlikely, I reckon. There was just so much fabric in those dresses, especially the ones that were gathered all around, compared to some that were more usual in the construction of the back and sides. So I think you’re right in that while it was a very fashionable garment, it wasn’t necessarily popular across classes. Most people just wouldn’t be able to afford it. I’m personally just extremely sad that it’s impossible to get that sort and quality of fabric anymore. The Brits completely destroyed the Indian muslin industry, not only stealing it for themselves, but destroying all of the equipment used to make it. And now, no one knows how. The fabric is extinct. I can see some of the remaining chemise gowns made into regency gowns- they’re the right fabric, and there’s certainly enough fabric there to make a regency gown out of it! And the paper industry theory is very interesting- and I wouldn’t be surprised if upper class people who found themselves a bit hard up for cash wouldn’t go that route to get a bit of extra money. It might have made more financial sense to recut the gown into a regency gown, and then sell off the extra. You’re not only getting a new fashionable gown, but also making money on that gown. It’s a smart thing to do. So I think it might be a case of d) all of the above.

@alessandrammms 2 года назад

I think there’s a good point to support theory number 2 in your comment, which is the fact that regency gowns usually required less fabric than previous AND subsequent styles. So it’s quite possible that while several chemise a la reine were made into fashionable regency gowns… it’s way harder to make THOSE into a fashionable dress if it’s now 1825, sleeves and skirts are getting more and more voluminous and color has come back with a vengeance.

@blktauna 2 года назад

Fortunately there are some amazing people in India today who are raising the making of muslin from the dead.

@nancycollins9783 2 года назад

Truly?? Any references? A university effort somewhere?? What about the extinct cotton strain that only grew in the delta region? Isn't that where it starts, a finer cotton strand? It was said the muslin was so fine to be nearly translucent. Maybe the reason for the story, "The Emperor's New Clothes".

@BiologicalClock 2 года назад

@@nancycollins9783 I don't know if RU-vid will let me post the link, but there's a BBC article called "the ancient fabric that no one knows how to make" that you should read. The strain of cotton used for the traditional dhaka muslin is extinct, but they have found a strain that seems to be closely related and have been conducting some genetic engineering to use it for dhaka muslin production. They are still unable to get the thread count to 800-1200, but so far they've gotten up to 300 and it has been popular for use with saris, so the project is off to a good start.

@tqnz-a5238 2 года назад

Could it be that in the fall of the House of Bourbon the chemise à la reine was associated to scandal and excess? If so, many would have rushed to discard a "look" that could have led to them straight to the chopping block. This could be why many no longer exist.

@justinwilliams7290 Год назад

Thats what I think. I don't think even turning them into fichus or handkerchiefs could hide how fine the fabric was and therefore symbolic of that regime and M-A in particular. I mean forget MA for a second and think of the Princess de Lamballes, how violent her death was... she was surely part of this fake peasant dress crowd and she was brutally murdered.

@jackiejames4551 2 года назад

This was very interesting and thought provoking. I look forward to seeing your later research in this subject.

@sophroniel 2 года назад

Just found your channel and I love it! A great explanation of the topic, can't wait for more videos!

@susanheath5467 Год назад

We t to the Moulin Richard de Bas in central France. They have been making very fine quality paper from cloth for 700 years. The process remains the same. Wonderful to visit.

@AlltheKingsdresses 2 года назад

Oh my! I am living for you miss thing! I'm so glad I stumbled upon this video! Liked and subscribed! 💅💅💅💜💜💜💜💜💜

@pineapplejester7191 2 года назад

This was such an interesting video!! It's also a topic that I had never thought about before so thank you for sharing :D

@shantigarin7272 2 года назад

Super interesting! Thank you for the video. Never thought of the paper industry to be one of the possible life end uses for these textiles!

@ThildasBeinhaus Год назад

My theory was always that it got retailored into the empire waist style dresses or simply used in a literal sense as a chemise for boudoir wear. As a sleeping or dressing gown. Much like Mantuas ended up being used as morning robes for decades.

@thomasspicer4130 2 года назад

Very interesting and cool I love your passion for history and fashion.🌻

@Becky_Theroux_Gockel 2 года назад

I agree with you and many of the commenters. It was a short-lived fad. The fabric was then made into other things. The first thing I thought of was baby christening dresses but they could have been made into underwear and also sold to make paper. I am so glad to see that your subscriptions have risen. You are doing such a great and interesting job and I felt so bad that you had so few subscribers.

@alisoncrowe7500 2 года назад

Interesting video! A question worth pondering, and I love the possibility of the higher resale price into the paper industry contributing to more recycling of these garments once they were worn out. But I wonder if many ever were truly worn out…..at the end you mention that they were the iconic look of the 1780’s…..and what happened at the end of the 1780’s? The French Revolution. If you looked, acted or especially dressed like an aristocrat you could be in danger. Marie Antoinette and King Louis XVI and famille disguised themselves as members of a lower social class in their ill-fated attempt to flee the country. Heck, even her perfumer was thrown in prison for a period simply because of his association with the court. Her signature look, la chemise a la reine, was therefore a fashion risk. I’m betting a lot of the gowns were cut down and re-purposed very quickly….and many probably saw their way to the paper-makers when they couldn’t be cut down into fichus or handkerchiefs any longer. So sad that more don’t exist! This book does a deep dive into the “gaulle” Aka la chemise a la reine, and it’s troubled history (the Queen in her undergarments, shock horror!): www.amazon.com/Fashion-Victims-Dress-Court-Marie-Antoinette/dp/0300154380 Great video, I just subscribed.

@costumeandconservation 2 года назад

This is really great! I always think of the David portrait of the Lavoisiers when taking about this subject. Madame Lavoisier is wearing a full Chemise a la Reine, but the portrait was not exhibited at the salon in 1789 b/c they thought it might insight more revolutionary action. A bit later and her husband would be guillotined. (The couple is also best know for discovering oxygen). The dress was also very popular throughout Europe and the UK. These places held onto the style for longer and had a slower transition into the Neoclassical styles. So that is where the paper theory may hold more water. Thank you for subscribing!

@earthcat 2 года назад

I love your earrings. I MUST have them!

@mn4169 Год назад

you said material culture .. I am a fan (myself being an historian). So interesting. Clothing and materials tel lus a lot about structure, usage, making and cleaning problems with such delicate materials, but also about style and the urge for comfort.

@reverie6034 2 года назад

Ahhhh you got me with the chemise a la reine! I look at those dresses and see christening gowns for babies of the upper upper upper crust. Christening gowns are lightly used and passed down for generations. They would be lovingly cared for which is what would preserve this amazing fabric. And how many of the women having their portraits painted in the chemise de la reine actually owned one? They would never wear them outside in polite company. Only Marie Antoinette would do that and she didn’t. She kept it hidden at her hideaway. I could see there only being a few made and passed around amongst friends for fashionable portraits a la 18th century “glamor shots” 😂. Loved your video and will be watching more. Subscribed!

@francesgrimble9394 Год назад

When I was writing my book The Lady's Stratagem: A Repository of 1820s Directions for the Toilet, Mantua-Making, Stay-Making, Millinery & Etiquette, I came across a likely recycling method. Colored muslins were worn in the early 19th century. I found a period process for recycling cottons (admittedly calicos). The instructions are to gather pieces of the best parts of partly worn and/or outdated dresses, whether white, colored, or printed. Dye them all together in a fairly dark color, and then use these various pieces to make a new dress. It is advised that printed calicos be reused with the original wrong side out, if the design shows through the redye job. People tended to use fabric until it really wore out, and only then was it sold for pulping. A chemise dress could easily be made into a Regency dress, then fichus or caps, then dustcloths, before pulping.

@laurendicicco6283 2 года назад

I think your paper theory is very intriguing... Here's something to potentially add to it. Perhaps, because the dress' style was so associated with Marie Antoinette, people didn't want to be reminded of a disgraced queen by wearing it? Or maybe wearing it would have been seen as supporting the dethroned monarchy, so to protect themselves from scrutiny women just stopped wearing them?

@francesgrimble9394 Год назад

I think it just evolved into the white Empire dresses of the early 19th century, including recycling the fabric into those dresses.

@thepokeyrose5483 2 месяца назад

Just watched a video about the Darkha Muslin (hope I spelled that correctly). The muslin these gowns was made from had a thread count of 1200 per square inch. It was made from a now extinct cotton plant and had a 16-step process to make such fine fabric. I would also assume that the lifespan of this sort of fine fabric would be shorter than even the following versions of muslin, which were not as fine. You know how they say a whole dress could be pulled through a wedding ring, it was so fine. I also like the chemisette and lace cape theory - these gowns would have been cut up for those things, the bits of such fine, now unavailable fabric treasured!

@amethyst5538 2 года назад

Ok, RU-vid just did us both a favor. Love the video. One dress I have wanted since I watched that episode of a Stitch in Time.

@annalopes4035 2 года назад

Little précision, this is not le petit trianon but le hameau where Marie Antoinette spend time in Versailles. Very interesting vidéo, tanks à lot

@costumeandconservation 2 года назад

Thanks for the clarification!

@pheart2381 2 года назад

I suppose a lot of them were cut up to make night caps once they became too worn. Marie Antoinette gave her friend the Duchess of Leinster 3 chemises. I wonder where they ended up!

@katerinahikesalot1644 2 года назад

I also think they would have been recycled, if the fabric was worth saving after the fad died. I can see them being used for infant dresses and just everyday shifts.

@justinwilliams7290 Год назад

@@katerinahikesalot1644 The fabric wasn't cheap, I just dont see it being used for children's dresses. Cotton or not, it was iconic. There was no shortage of regular cotton to transform into childrens clothes if you were fortuante enough to ever have one of these, I highly doubt that was the route it took. But then again, who knows

@katerinahikesalot1644 Год назад

@@justinwilliams7290 Perhaps. But when one was wealthy enough to wear dresses like that, the children did not wear simple cotton. If you look through the old fashion journals of the 19th century, you'll see that children's fashion mimicked that of the adults. Clothes were definitely symbols of status.

@brendareed8412 2 года назад

When the dresses went out of fashion, I am sure the skirts made nice petticoats or chemises for children, and smaller bits were cut into handerchiefs. After all, it was just white cotton when not enobled by fashion. I think, too, that your paper theory makes a lot of sense.

@justinwilliams7290 Год назад

I dont think so. It wasnt just cotton. It was VERY fine cotton. Its like saying people cut up Worth velvet gowns and upholstered chairs for an oprhanage with them. I just don't see that happenening. And children's clothes? Really. To get soiled? People weren't as sentimental but in reality, people have always been somewhat attached to things and if a woman had a chance to wear one of these haute couture (basically) gowns, she would have cherised it and not treated like old socks. IDK LOL who knows. I'm assuming with Marie Antoinette's fate, they could have been seen as dangerous to own and thus were all burnt to prevent people from being associated with them and risking being executed themselves. At least in France anyway but...I do think these were probably far more popular in the UK.

@seldisia Год назад

@@justinwilliams7290 I see it that way too. I think people don't know how fine this cotton was. Even today it is not easy to get such fine and noble cotton. She mentioned the dress of a stitch in time. See how bulky this restoration is. The fabric is far, far from the delicate, dreamy soft quality that you see in the paintings.

@AllThePeppermint 2 года назад

Part of me is wondering if some of the white and off-white Victorian dresses made almost entirely of insertion lace were a revival of the Chemise a la Reine? That's something fashion history does--revives and/or adopts old styles and inspiration from the past often, incorporating a new twist. Not to mention white and off-white styles of women's dress in European and Western fashions tends to wax and wane in popularity.

@costumeandconservation 2 года назад

That’s an interesting thought! There was definitely some 18th century revival in the late Victorian/Edwardian period with the Watteau pleated tea gowns.

@demiandennisrobinson3865 2 года назад

This is gold

@casteretpollux 2 года назад

I recently read an article about the attempts to revive Dhaka Bengal muslin in India (easily found by a web search). These very fine 800-1200 - count muslins were known as 'woven air' and were very light and translucent and of high value. Like many preindustrial hand- woven textiles its production which was a 1000 year old + skill was squeezed out by very high British colonial trade tarriffs and by competition from cotton grown by enslaved people in the Southern States of the US and woven by factory workers in Manchester and surrounds in Britain. Land that had been used to grow cotton in India was turned by the East India Company to growing opium poppies to supply the opium forced onto China in the Opium War. Cheap machine made cotton of course made basic cotton fabrics available to many people who would not have afforded to have clean shirts, chemises etc. before. This is a very broad brush picture: I'd be very interested to hear from experts in history of dress how these geopolitical and economic changes affected clothing and fashion. I think that these very light and fragile dresses were a luxury item only intended to be worn a few times and would have worn out, disintegrated, discoloured quickly. 'À la Reine' indeed as only a queen or aristocrat could have afforded these soft and floating cloud-dresses. Reproduction if undertaken should use the softest, most translucent muslin available.

@sjsmith9637 2 года назад

I have to think a big part of this has to be it's an association with Marie Antonette who ended up very unpopular and dead. The folks capable of buying this dress probably wanted a lot of distance from her kind of nobility. It might have also made the resale of the garment less valuable than it otherwise would have been because the middle class wasn't clamoring to look like the woman they beheaded (hence the paper making).

@castoputa 2 года назад

I think they’d be altered and handed off to other people, they’re basically raw delicious fabric, also there may not have been so many despite the representation in art, which might skew our perception of their real world popularity? Excellent channel, I’m completely addicted. You’d make a really engaging lecturer!

@tanyagarcia3721 2 года назад

it may be, like shoes, the clothing didn't last long unless it wasn't worn much so that's why there aren't that many of this and the other style of dress available. i was watching this one episode where it was on shoes and they had the smaller styles of shoes that would be the equivalent of kids shoes nowadays or the ones that were very dressy that weren't worn very often and that those were the ones in the museums because they weren't worn very often and were the ones to have survived the test of time to be able to be put in the museums because of that reason alone. that's why some things like houses and even other clothing from earlier in time weren't around because they would have rotted away unless it was someone that was mummified like in egypt or the bog people or someone that was naturally mummified in south america because they were in a cave or that sixteen year old incan girl that still had her dress pretty much intact considering when she died and all that

@MandyJMaddison 2 года назад

I'd like to suggest that the fashion for pretty, soft, white dresses started out as a fashion for children's clothes, that was then accepted as adult wear.

@francesgrimble9394 Год назад

Here is an article on the chemise a la reine in the Caribbean, including information on the dressmakers who made them and a probate inventory recording 6 dresses. Probate inventories, in general, would be a good source for how many a person had in their wardrobe when they died.

@genevievefosa6815 2 года назад

I am sure that the chemise would have been more comfortable than many other gowns were at time, and any woman who could afford one at the time would have had one made for herself, or made one up on her own. However, it looks as though the fabric was essentially gauze, and would likely have ripped and torn very easily. Being white it would show all the stains, and after a couple of seasons would have looked more like a dust rag than a gown she would want to show off. This, at any rate, is what I suspect.

@anonymousperson4214 2 года назад

Honestly, what seems most likely to me is that they were re-made into neoclassical gowns, and then since they were delicate and had already seen a second life, they tended to just wear out and ended up as paper. I had no idea there were only 2 catalogued though. wow.

@justinmileman7863 2 года назад

LOL It actually literally WAS the Queen running around in her chemise.

@antoniobroccoliporto4774 7 месяцев назад

There are many paintings of Creole women wearing the flowing hire cotton gowns in the French Colonies of Guadeloupe, Martinique. Creole women as well as freed women of color are depicted in these outfits and with mandatory ( by law ) of their head dress turbans.

@jenavievehottenstein1636 2 года назад

Stitch in time was my favorite show. I was only able to find the first season. Was there more?

@costumeandconservation 2 года назад

Sadly, I think they only made one season.

@aeolia80 2 года назад

So, here's the thing, I live quite close to the Musée de la Toile de Jouy, like literally 4 or 5 stops away by train. I went in August once we were fully vaccinated and our health passes were valid, it was one of the first places I went with my "new" health pass. And the dress is not there on display for the regular public, I mean it is a pretty neat museum for those that are into textile history ( they had a really great African textile display going on when I was there) and about the printed cotton industry in France (the town Jouy en Josas where the museum is used to have the most famous, at the time, cotton printing factory and the museum is mostly about that), and there are some garments on display, but the chemise a la reine is not. I will say there is one section of the museum that is closed off for "renovations", and maybe it's usually in that room, but for the regular permanent collection, it isn't there.

@caragarcia2307 2 года назад

Maybe they dressed wounds with them. I think muslin was used this way. It would let the wound breathe but still protect it.

@suzannedavis6855 2 года назад

Wow! The speaker went so fast I missed most of what was said.

@persiswynter6357 2 года назад

Considering that the queen was imprisoned (and then decapitated), I wouldn't have a gown named for her in my possession. That thing would would have been deconstructed and its parts used for other gowns.

@costumeandconservation 2 года назад

This is probably true in France but the gown was also popular in the UK and the rest of Europe.

@persiswynter6357 2 года назад

@@costumeandconservation I was also thinking of Napoleon and his tromping all over Europe. References to the previous dynasty probably weren't taken well. Oh! Maybe the dresses were torn into strips to use as bandages? Lots of wounded during the Napoleonic Wars. Burials shrouds come to mind, too.

@zoebell1535 2 года назад

What about the advent of the French revolution? One of the portraits that you showed was repainted by the artist and the noblewoman's hat was painted out, I seem to recall, and her hair made smaller so she seemed more like a citoyenne. The dress would have fitted with that same idea. So the upper class citizens, the women (les citoyennes), might well have worn these dresses, and then they wore out. Or of course they could have just disappeared when the women were killed. The point being that maybe noblewomen were using them as a way to blend into the supposedly democratic new society, so they actually would have gotten more wear that way.

@hattyburrow716 2 года назад

The lack of examples is quite understandable because fabrics then were used, reused, reused and reused ad nauseum

@veritasreigns 2 года назад

I saw an attempt being made to reawaken the South Asian muslin artisanal industry--they have to find the right plant and try to rediscover the methods first, though. They are nowhere near to making the superfine transparent stuff yet, but they are making progress, apparently.

@costumeandconservation 2 года назад

I saw this too. It is so exciting!

@veritasreigns 2 года назад

@@costumeandconservation Imagine if they succeed! Ancient Egyptian linen manufacturing techniques would be a step closer then I'm sure.

@tricialowrey8690 Год назад

Late to the party, but I wonder if the particular variety of cotton used to make this muslin, being lost, would have made these chemises more appealing to cut up and re-use, since that type of muslin simply couldn't (still can't as far as I know) be manufactured any more.

@veritasreigns Год назад

@@tricialowrey8690 I so hope they recover how to grow and make it.

@rosieHolliday5887 2 года назад

Maybe some of the paintings featuring the dress, the wearer might not have actually been wearing the dress. They might have asked their artist to show them wearing the fashionable dress even though they don't own one. The ladies could show their friends that they're a bit more fashionable than they really are. Not to dissimilar to us with filters online lol x

@evamosbauer2865 Месяц назад

The truth the muslin like fabric used to make the Chemise a la Reine was produced in India ,from a rare plant that no longer exists ,also the French Revolution with all the looting in hence saying this love the one on Stich in time beautiful copy

@SchlichteToven 2 года назад

Would it be common for the ultra-rich (who must have been the wearers of this dress) to sell their old clothes to a paper mill? If they were that rich, would they need to do that? Or would the women give them to their maids, who would dispose of them? The fabric looks so delicate that I also assume it wouldn't last long and maybe just disintegrated. Or they used it for toilet paper. I kind of also think that maybe, since it looked like underwear to most people, maybe only the really fashionable, really bold type actually wore them for anything other than portraits.

@lazygardens Год назад

They could easily be cut down into chemises, dresses for children, men's shirts, or other garments. So they were.

@jw1422 2 года назад

My theories are they were lost/destroyed during the revolution and/or made into more modern styles during the 1790’s-1810’s

@belletopia5910 2 года назад

I'm not dressed historian in any way shape or form my personal opinion is that the Muslim was not as sturdy of a textile as maybe your wools, cottons, or silks so on. so that over the years it was very likely that if it wasn't stored or preserved in the most proper way that it just did not hold up, yet it deteriorated immensely. Even though muslin back then was a very expensive textile. honestly I just believe that it just was a super super fragile textile that caused it to deteriorate over time. As for the two to three examples these were probably just a fluke of opportunity or they were preserved and or saved or stored in a way where they just happened to survive. all others were just discarded and fell out of fashion and they weren't cared for and preserved and saved in the proper way which caused the textile to deteriorate immensely over time.

@aminakishk6571 2 года назад

Oh yes, past materials and cloth and dresses are so not seen any more the straight dresses in the 30s were very light weight and sequined…ypu would never sweat in them and no binding of the waist or middle were much more comfortable….I don’t know how women wore the heavier. Lots in a binder waist dress in the summer….all the layers, petticoat and slips, braziers…and waist cinching for narrow waist …I would have fainted and would be in my room all day until cooler weather…

@meeeka 2 года назад

The Chemise á la Reine was made out of English cotton: if they weren't torn up into battle flags or revolutionary (or Napoleonic) cockettes , could they have become dusters? With all that cotton muslin, sort of makes sense; plus my great grandmother told me so!

@ninamartin1084 2 года назад

In the UK rag-and-bone men would go from house to house collecting yes you guessed it rags and bones and anything else householders wanted to get rid of like bottles, old shoes etc.. Rubbish collection was and still is carried out by dustmen, so called as dust was the only household waste that remained after everything else had been taken for recycling.

@bonnienunley7193 2 года назад

Is it possible the dresses would have been recylced upon the death of a loved one and dyed black for morning garments?

@costumeandconservation 2 года назад

Potentially, but to my knowledge there are no extant black chemise a la reines.

@drasiella Год назад

Cottagecore queen doing cottagecore things

@malvavisco10 Год назад

“Chemises à la reine” would be the plural…

@candor_xo 2 года назад

are the rest in space

@bookmouse2719 2 года назад

cut up and used for other things. Even Cinderella used her Mom's dress to do a make over.

@elizabethclaiborne6461 2 года назад

Robe a la creole was the name of this gown before the queen made it scandalous. Telling us it came from the Caribbean.

@costumeandconservation 2 года назад

It is also called a Gaulle and a robe en chemise, among other names. It has possible origins in the Caribbean but also a possible Indian origin (especially with the use of Indian fabrics)

@justinwilliams7290 Год назад

Im guessing the Revolution in France had something to do with it. Antoinette and Lamballes wore them and were executed. If they were that expensive and rare and her portrait wearing one was such a disaster...likely it was no different than that necklace. Anyone wearing one of those dresses would have been high on the list to be chopped in my mind... Maybe they were burned while aristocrats pretended not to be aristocrats.

@elizabethrobbins8580 2 года назад

Why doesn't anyone think about menstrual clothes? There was no cloth that was sold exclusively for period care so women had to make do with Ole fabric.

@costumeandconservation 2 года назад

That is definitely true, however cotton muslin of that quality would not be a good choice for menstruation rags. It was much too thin!

@fairytailfan02 2 года назад

Pastoralism = 18th century cottagecore

@AlltheKingsdresses 2 года назад

Amber Butchart******

@costumeandconservation 2 года назад

I caught that right after I posted the video 🤦‍♀️

@AlltheKingsdresses 2 года назад

@@costumeandconservation Oh my gosh, You're so fabulous,dont you worry about it for a second. You're so lovely. I shared your video on my Facebook so I hope some of my friends follow you as well. I'm going to watch all your things from now on. 💜💜💜💜💜👑👑👑👑👑👑

@londondaze 2 года назад

Interesting video. But....... stop waving your hands around like you are trying to fly!!!!!!!!!!!

@thematlandry 2 года назад

Maybe you should research before releasing a video touting your merit. Or at least don't admit to not doing it.

@costumeandconservation 2 года назад

The video is about having a conversation and not presenting formal research. I have a working knowledge of these things but do not have the time to do hyper focused primary source research. It’s not about my merit- it’s about connecting ideas to others.

@NatureAndRelaxSounds 2 года назад

It's pointless watching a video about a topic, if the person talking is only exposing their ideas without having researched prior. Like what's the point? Making even more people talk about stuff they don't know? Anyways... Good luck