Dark & Darker was one of the most promising new games scheduled to release in 2023. But then things went very, very, wrong. What happened? Where is the game now? Will it ever release?
Edit: Well it's official, Dark & Darker is back. I'm both happy and hesitant. With them charging, having premium currency, and the game being hosted on a site I've never heard of. Plus the fact that both lawsuits are pending and so the game could theoretically get another DMCA takedown at any point. I'm excited for the game to be back and think it's kind of cool the devs are circumventing Steam, but could also see this all going very south very quickly. Hope it turns out to just be a feel good story of indie devs getting their game out in spite of corpo greed. We'll see. Original Post: As of this morning we got new leaks of a potential early access release soon, via Chaf Games. Still no Steam version and likely there won't be any until the lawsuits clear up.
An important distinction here is that there are two angles of lawsuits taking place. DMCA in the US to keep the game off steam. But in South Korea there is another set of investigations regarding g trade secrets. The DMCA is covered under US law but the other isn’t. So even if they win in the US that doesn’t mean they will win in Korea.
as well iron mace isn’t trying to win in the US rather having the case dismissed, nexon claims that the korean court isn’t competent enough to handle this case (in reality they’re trying to drain iron mace games of funds by doubling up the courts)
yes but they only need to win in US to be back on steam and it was already said multiple times that even if nexon gonna win in korea (which is unlikely) game will still be released
Why? Were these legal troubles resolved? I know that D&D is going into early access today on their own launcher, but this doesn't change the fact that they have legal issues.
@@doctorstrangepants6706 no, but likely they have had closed door discussions that have brought them to a place they feel comfortable releasing the game into EA before the legal matter fully resolves
Thanks for this video. I stumbled upon this game on Twitch today (27 Sep 2023) and I thought it looked neat. You explained everything in the video nicely.(what the game is, the timeline of events, what the devs seem to be doing, etc..) I feel like an expert about the drama without actually participating. Here's to hoping for a new fantastic game to be released!
The one key thing that makes P3 and Dark&Darker different is the extraction portal. P3 never had an extraction portal, it was suppose to be a battle royal where the last man/team standing wins. Also Both P3 and D&D are the creation of the man that Nexon is suing and trying to get criminal charges against in Korea. He also created another game for them that they also put on the shelf and never saw the light of day. The files that Nexon is also claiming are files in which the names are shit like torch, and fireball.
That's not even the point, it doesn't matter if one has a portal and the other doesn't, duh?? That's just an addition they made, what about all the rest of the game? The problems are stolen assets and code. And I'm not saying they did steal anything, just that your argument is complete ignorance
It sounds like you have played P3, so how can you be convinced they don't have an extraction portal? They only did the inner play test in Nexon. In fact, the extraction portal doesn't matter in this case. The problem is that Nexon grinds to make this game's idea, find assets, do QA, and develop this project, and the main developer takes everything with some of the former P3 project members too. During the development of games, development time equals money. They used Nexon's money to develop every idea and game play, and when the game got into the alpha and beta phases, they took all these things with them. Can you really say that is not stealing? The alpha or beta phase means the game's development is almost complete. All you need to do is do a bunch of outside play tests, gather feedback, and fix the game. Dark and Darker just skipped the development phase while they were with Nexon. Which all of ther works supposed to belong to Nexon.
@@taylor895 if it was close to release, why did they shelve it? According to the original poster, they shelved another one of his games too. He's making a game and overseeing everything and they tell him to do something he doesn't want so leaves and forms a new studio and builds a similar game. Even if he designed it very close to the one they had, as long as he didn't steal assets from them, he's fine. Also, the guy said they had stuff listed like fireball and torch. Just say he did steal that along with other small assets like it, is that really something to go after him for? If he stole everything I could understand it. But if it's small shit like that, just have him pay a settlement and be done with it. They shelved the game so aren't losing any money on it.
@@keenfire8151 have u watched the news in the past few years? Cases being dropped is no indication of who's right or wrong. Also from what others have said. The US case was civil and just trying to keep the game off us stores. If the dude ends up in prison won't matter will it?
The release of a purchasable game was most likely a cash grab to help their legal battles if I had to guess. Rayon will also probably drag this out in court as long as possible. I will pray for DnD literally my favorite concept of a game and would hate to see it disappear.
It won't disappear. Nexon isn't going to chuck the customer base, likely they will just take ownership of the game or take a large percentage of the profits.
this is the kind of moment where having a community that likes you instead of just the franchise you milk is important. in the court of opinion, nexon has already lost. if this was blizzard or EA, it would've been the same. if it were valve (or another reputable game company) im not so sure they'll still get this much backlash for opposing it. If Nexon manages to actually shut down this project, it will give them a much worse reputation, especcially in the western market that D&D managed to catch. Don't know if they are willing to take the risk, especially considering they cancelled P3 and therefore having no benefit besides (seemingly) satisfying their petty ego.
Yeah 100% true if they shut down D&D I would NEVER spend a dime on anything Nexon or that Korean company. Even if they apologized and backtracked afterwards I wouldn't care. Tbh they don't need to shut down D&D because imo they've already shown their true colors by doing what they have. They don't care about fun, or games, or us. They care only about money. Not a company I feel like supporting for the purpose of being entertained lol.
Dungeon Stalkers: "How will be make our game appealing?!" "Skimpy animegirls in booby armor and lots of magically floating capes that we can sell as microtransactions!"
"Who's out there waving the flag for Nexon?" Um, plenty of people. Not that anyone likes Nexon, but anyone who actually looked into the case realized Iron Mace was doing some seriously shady shit with the private server, deleting files, etc. Pretty inaccurate to claim the entire internet is on Iron Mace's side. Yeah, the game is fun and we WANT to be in its corner, but I absolutely would not throw money at Iron Mace as it stands now because there are so many red flags. Wait until the legal shit has been dealt with.
Mr Choi actions were definitely sketchy, I want to defend Ironmace cause I love the game though so I'm pretty conflicted there, and I guess a lot of people are too
@@NModem Yeah, I totally feel you. I can't stand Nexon and Dark & Darker is fun, so it would be easy if Choi wasn't so damn sus. And aside from his actions that have put him in legal hot water, I don't like how he is trying to manipulate the game's fan base into thinking he is some sort of good guy who should be protected just because the game itself is a great time.
the fact we have to torrent to game in 2023 is mind blowing, and makes me happy at the same time, as gamers can still do the right thing and unite simply for the love of the game, thats a real gamer move right there.
@@hououinkyouma6063 no it's not? it's half the price of new AAA games at 35$. Do you know what you're talking about, or are you just spreading misinformation?
@@Sn5ck$35 for a game from a completely brand new studio with no prior games and a literal lawsuit happening that can shutdown the game at any moment is ridiculous moron. do you hear yourself? it’s an obvious exit scam. they’re taking your money clown and then leaving when they inevitably lose the lawsuit
@@Prawnsacrifice OnePeg has been covering the whole legal battle in detail on his channel with with actual court filings etc. Nexon is a scammy company using the courts to punish an indie competitor.
@@BadManOhBadMannexon still hasn’t directed the korean court to compare the coding lol iron mace has stated several times their willing to compare the coding through third party under the court but nexon won’t because they know they’re in the wrong
If the game went down now(Which it wont) I fully support spending 35 bucks on it, this game is the best I've played in years. The combat is extremely challenging in both PVP/PVE, the skill ceiling is unlimited, the chase for gear is irresistible. Learning how to fight each AI effortlessly , learning your role in 3v3 PVP engagements, learning the good loot spots, all of this is extremely rewarding. Finding that synergy with my friends as a team of 3 was amazing. I cant express how much this game kicks ass.
As a programmer I would say that if you wrote the original code, you can replicate that (functionally, not one to one) at a fraction of the time it took to write the original. Because much of the development time is trying things and design approaches until you have something workable to build on, you even have the advantage of re-inventing things (software design) that were less well designed for building on. So my point is, it is not a great benefit to run "stolen code", and I am sure it is any companys policy to not do so. It is however not unlikely that their programmers have some of the original code at home, for inspiration and looking up; or in todays environment it is also not unlikely that parts they did were shared online or acquired online; because it is stupid to invent the wheel for every new game. Then it becomes a grey area of .. is it stealing if you replicate something that you learned how to do in another company, or is it using your experience amd knowledge in your new job ?
Completely agreed with everything you said save one issue. If Nexon was forced to stop development BECAUSE Choi left and took the team with him...... yeah idk man. That sounds like Choi didn't like the rules of the game he was paid to play and just took his ball and went home. If Nexon can legit prove that's the case, that wouldn't bode well for Dark -N- Darker..
Personally I think that Nexon would also have to prove that they intended to release and distribute the game. If Choi was the brain, Nexon doesnt really have a leg to stand on from a 'code ownership' point of view. AT BEST Nexon should be maybe paid small royalties for the thefts. Itll be interesting to see what the courts decide.
@@dipstick555yea they do idiot. do you know how companies work idiot? when you make code for a company they make you sign papers saying all your work belongs to them. you saying they don’t have a leg to stand on is probably the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard
@@dipstick555 That sounds right, but sadly that's not how it works I don't think. Even if Nexon shelved the game and didn't plan on releasing it, anything made is still subject to their ownership, even if it wasn't being used.
@@keenfire8151 according to choi they're not using any of the assets they developed with nexon , its not even the same genre. Only the setting is similar.
@@mactassio21 that's what he's supposed to say mate. There is no other correct answer. As an attorney, bases on what has been shared about the case publicly so far, Choi and team effed up. Choi has pretty much said "Yes I stole thousands of files even after I was told to stop. And yes, the game and character classes are strikingly similar to P3, and yes, I poached key staff that were working on P3 to make a game in the same genre as P3, but no, none of that is contained in our game". Putting my gamer brain and emotions aside, Choi most likely effed up.
I don't have enough information to determine whether DnD is the spawn of P3 or not, but it's a sad example of a case where in a perfect world, Nexon would recognize that Dark and Dark's success is likely more than they ever could have hoped for with their own project, and/or the press greater with the controversy than would have been the case otherwise, and simply push for a revenue-sharing agreement, allowing Ironmace to retain ownership and letting them publish. This title will clearly generate a significant dollar amount, enough for both parties...but we do not live in that world.
On what grounds do you say that? Dave the Diver just released to massive success. Whos to say that DnD would be any different if it hadn't been stolen from Nexon? That's what i don't get about all you fanboys. You are pinning this on Nexon, how about pinning it on the greedy fuck who stole not just the game code but the whole team?
Imagine having someone violate their employee contract, steal employees, take your code and put it on a private server then be told they should be happy about it. Gamers have no business sense and no clue about this industry
Nexon did offer to put money into the project so they didn't need to go this route. Ironmace said they didn't want to share in the profits. So here we are.
You sound like if I steal something good from your house and I post and sell that goods on the internet to get a huge amount of money, but you are not going to claim any issue with it. What a smart guy! I will definitely start to steal other people's stuff. Why should I invest my time and money to develop new things? You can just steal it from others :)
First of your Videos that I personally find badly researched. A lot of context for the Legal cases is missing. Like how P3 was greenlit and should have gone in full Production until after Mr. Choi and most of the Project Leads leaved, then Nexon canceled the Project and allocated the remaining Devs to new Teams. Or the Private Server(s) that Mr. Choi hosted and transfered Company Data to, even after Nexon prohibited this. There's a lot more to this case as just "Big Bad Nexon bullying poor little Iron Mace". I hate Nexon for their Greed, but when you try and take all Information into consideration, it looks like Iron MAce, or at least Mr. Choi and his colleagues tried to fuck over Nexon and got caught. Only thing that remains to be seen is if Nexon can prove this in Court. Someone else here already said it, Kira here on youtube made some really good in-depth Videos about all this already, maybe check them out to get a more balanced impression of all this.
Initially he did receive permission to use a private server. He wiped the server after he was terminated per his employee policy… there was no foul play with the private server.
@@browniesbytes305 That's not 100% correct. Yes he got initially permission, but these was later revoked. Choi himself got on record admiting that those Servers existed and that he ran them without permission later on, that is also what Iron Mace Lawyers admit in the latest court Documents, they only say it wasn't unlawfull. If that is correct, is for a Judge to decide. Also in the same documents Iron Maces lawyers admit that Choi first agreed to cooperate with Nexon and give them these Servers for a Forensic Investigation, but after consulting with a Lawyer, decided to not cooperate and delete the Data because of "Privacy reasons", so nothing with Employee Policy here. I love Dark and Darker and I hope it can still come out. But Iron MAce are definitely not the "poor little Indie Guys" that the Community (and them themself) makes them to be.
"Who's waving the flag for Nexon?" Kira. Kira is. I don't get why he's chosen this hill to die on. But he has. Reporting on reddit posts with incorrect translations as though they're an actual source. Going through the legal documents and cherry picking lines out of context to use as "gotcha".
IANAL IF they didn't use code or assets they could have a case at least in the sense that Dark and Darker, while a good idea, isn't an original one really. As a developer, I don't see how code could be "owned" either since it would be very hard to determine what makes that specific architecture/code base unique, but I'm sure legally there's precedent for that. Whatever the case with that is, I hope they win. The world should start to recognize the power these companies have and that they shouldn't have "rights" to anything as poorly determined as an idea for a video game. Now if they were dumb enough to straight up use assets and code from the original project... Yikes dawg.
After you've coded a system once, it stands to reason you'll be able to do it again more quickly. Then supposedly while at Nexon, the main guy was even talking about jumping ship, and making the game himself, while trying to get others in the team to join him, others at Nexon thought that was insane, and there was no way he would actually do that, but here we are. Then during the whole work at home period due to covid, the main guy set up a personal server to organize the team, and apparently kept running it after Nexon made their own system for that purpose, which he kept afterwards, that's something the one raid they got the police to make was supposedly trying to get. Finally, part of why Nexon even cancelled their project may have even been due to him, his departure, and the shenanigans he was up to while at Nexon. If you stop to look at both sides, it really doesn't sound like Iron Mace are the angels they claim to be. Now I'm not saying Nexon are either, as they are one of the companies I even avoid completely, but that main guy at Iron Mace especially really seems like a piece of work, and even if it does eventually get released, I wouldn't count on it being some pure gaming experience devoid of those oh so terrible monetization methods.
@@Someone--Else Yeah I'm not saying they're morally justified, I'm saying I want Nexon to lose. Pretty simple. Anything that chips away at what these corporations have is good in my opinion. A lot of similar issues come up with no-compete clauses and from what I've heard they don't even hold up in court. Of course making a similar product at your own project is probably different but I still hate the idea that these corporations pretend as if it isn't the labour that makes the product and not just their capital.
@@styrofoamsoldier Basically what you're saying is that no one should bother to pay attention to your view point at all then, right, gotcha. The lead guy at Iron Mace sounds like a real piece of shit, if you start a company built around such a piece of shit, don't expect the company to grow into anything other than an even bigger piece of shit, that could be worse than Nexon, if it lasts long enough for that to happen of course. Yet despite that, no matter how fucked up the other side is, you still will back them over Nexon, just because you have a hate on for Nexon. Anyone who is **COMPLETELY** unwilling to even look at both sides, just isn't worth paying attention to.
It’s safe to say the game has been ruined to an unfun, uninstalled brick in my game library. The games balance was near perfect. But almost a year later the game has been changed so bad it’s not the same at all anymore
5:55 they canceled the development because Iron Mace took key parts of the team working on P3 when they left. After watching a lot of Kiras videos on this topic I truly believe Dark and Darker is not coming out anymore.
13:00 I don't like Nexon but saying this is kinda meh. I imagine its a lot harder than just throwing more devs at a game concept. They would have to make a whole new team and train them if they need training then have them start over on a project. Time and money wise its probably a lot to invest in.
The fact that Ironmace is putting ALL of their eggs in one basket is a good sign. These people are so confident in their defense that they are willing to launch playtests, sell the game as early access, have a dedicated support team, and run micro transactions. All while every last dev is busy working on new content for a SINGLE PROJECT that is under "investigation." They are not afraid of this lawsuit. They have their asses covered and they know it, so it's full steam ahead even while burning millions in frivolous lawsuits. While most of the recent patches haven't been amazing, their level of dedication, feedback, and support is something rarely seen in the gaming ecosystem.
Despite what many are claiming, the game technically was *NOT* released today. The more accurate statement is that it started it's **early access** release today, *in South Korea.* Basically it's in a paid beta state, or such, not a full release, and a regional one at that. Then as Chaf Games is a South Korean company, servicing games for the South Korean market, don't expect there to be servers outside of South Korea. This also means should it ever get a global release, of some form, if you picked it up now, I wouldn't expect you to be able to continue playing using your data from the Chaf Games release, on the global servers, and also would expect that you'll need to purchase it again for the global release, should it require a fee to access it. It should also be noted that back in March, they still didn't know how they were going to monetize it, and I have not seen any more recent info on that matter. Them having no clue how they are going to make money from it, honestly is not reassuring, as it really should have been something they decided, to at least some extent, by that point already. Then their promise to not go the pay to win route by this point for me is just a meaningless promise I've seen too many times before, as all too often the game does go the pay to win route anyhow, so people shouldn't put too much stock into that statement. I get that some people want Dark and Darker to work out well, but with all the stuff the guy in charge at Iron Mace apparently was doing while at Nexon, and what has been going on since then, I really wouldn't count on this working out well, presuming it ever gets a full release at all. Add: Given that there are court caseS in the works already, Chaf Games could easily get ordered to remove Dark and Darker at any time, and the game be shut down. Then if you look around, Chaf Games doesn't come off as being that well run. There's apparently lots of typos on their at least English language pages, when you set up an account, you only enter your password once, not twice as is the norm to help ensure you didn't make a typo, then there's also apparently no way to change your password, even if you contact support, and may not even be a password recovery option, the site is lacking standard things like an about us page, or contact info, and so on. Then the fact they were even willing to take on a game with multiple court cases in the works meant to stop it from being made itself just makes one wonder what they were even thinking when they entered into this arrangement, as all it does is open them up to being sued as well.
Hasn't released in korea yet. This is an international early access release which actually exempts South Korea source: official webpage, news section; Unfortunately, we encountered some challenges that couldn’t be overcome in time for the Early Access launch. As much as it pains us, we won’t be able to service the game in Korea because we are still awaiting a rating from the Korean Game Rating Board (GRAC). We will do everything we can to expedite this process as we have already been granted ratings from other globally recognized game rating boards, including the ESRB, PEGI, and CERO. We will officially support and service the game in Korea as soon as we can overcome this hurdle.
@@DocXGAMCby who... I'm a Korean and this legal case is been going in... I keep tracking their discord and other source and you can guess... To many different story... But one thing for sure... What choi did ain't good and both Nexon, union, police, unanimous sources and news media are in line with the story while it's 180 story inside the IM discord
@@DocXGAMC note: I just watch kira... And damn, choi is stupid enough to keep his mouth shut... Kira just explained both Nexon and IM court documents and damn IM documents and choi's public announcement doesn't align with each other... It's like a jedi shit happening, he keeps in denying and admitting, vice versa
Holy fuck, just a simple, clunky movement and combat system, practically no animations, AI that behaves like on an old Cellphone type of AI you'd play CHECKERS AGAINST... yet the most enjoyable game of the year. I enjoyed this game more then any other AAA game 5 years prior. But I digress! How such a simple game? Can have such a hispanic telenovela behind it? is beyond me, but damn sure i hope we'll get more updates, cus' this game with a friend or two is just the best experience you can have in games, PERIOD.
If by any chance the game is taken down, I wonder if someone will make a single player mod, like SPTarkov. That would be cool, could at least raid the dungeons, wouldn't be as nearly as good but better than nothing.
What's so cool about the torrent stuff is how it allows them to give the game even tho they are unable to give the game with their own means. Giving the game to 80k players requires pretty big servers. So yeah, torrent isn't JUST for piracy lol. It's just so great
If nexon didn't patent their idea then they don't have any legal power over the idea. It is what it is. They should've had their employees sign an nda or a more restrictive contract, like making illegal the reproduction/reverse engineering of their idea.
one of the view voices you can clearly understand on 2.0 speed even though he speaks fast naturally anyways, good video quality good audio quality goo research
i mean it's a legitimate reason to be cheesed if your top talent leaves your studio effectively shutting down the production of a wip and uses said wip to make a new game. If the allegations are true
@JorgeTorres-uy1ym it's worth... but it's hard. If you like games that are very hard and take time to master.... you will love it. My current extract ratio is like 1 in 3, and that is me doing "good"
Thankyou for calling out the day before, and then later the day after.....you never said that. Yes Steam displayed both the day before and thern agin laterr the day after. You could search taht for 36 days and both would display the name. That helps your ealier videos. THEY had 2 titles. I screen shotted both. Come on man. It changes inside 6 hour windows.
Anyone else think this is a ploy to help with court cost? 1. It’s over priced 2. NOT ON STEAM OR ANY OTHER MAJOR PLATFORM. 3. Aaa early access isn’t 35. Other opinions are welcome I’d love to debate this.
It is very shady behavior. Don't touch if you aren't okay with potentially losing your money. FromSoftware or any other reputable publisher would never pull a stunt like this.
Can’t be on a major platform due to the lawsuit, 35$ is half of AAA games and I’ll probably put more time into it then most new games that come out. I paid 150$ for tarkov which is still early access and also only available on their website
@@ty313331313 can’t be on major platform cause they could get dmca an just keep your money go ahead. Pay em done be surprised when it gone in a month for a dmca. Paying 150 for tarkov is ducking stupid btw what did u get a cool skin 😂
nexon's "proof" of stolen code. We analyzed your code and we see you have a file named sword, we also have a file named sword! clearly you have stolen sword from us.
This sounds like a salty Nexon VP making a shit decision on canning the P3 project, then seeing success of Dark and Darker, and now is trying to save face.
@@ForceGamingYT I was supposed to be out by now so it might be anytime. People on Discord are suspecting either in 20min or an hour after now, you can already buy the game apparently, not on steam tho
you're kinda wrong dude, the guy was the lead developer and director of the project at Nexon and actively destroyed it before leaving and stealing the code. I hate Nexon as much as the next guy but in this case they're right.
I wish I could've gotten into it, but the loop frustrated me especially as other more experienced players more familiar with the system had the clear advantage. What really did it in for me tho was looking on the forums to see if there was a practice PvE mode chance so I could get more comfortable that way... ...and the vitriolic response from many players zealously against the concept and bitterly insulting those suggesting it prompted me to uninstall quickly.
@@TreyfromGA Yea "Git gud" used mean "Learn the mechanics" but lately it's been used in a very toxic way. I understand his frustration since it's usually tied with insults and not actual mechanics nowadays.
@TreyfromtheA I would've loved to "git gud", hence my thought process being "a PvE practice mode" where I could perhaps get a grasp for mechanics, map layouts, enemy types, without having to deal with veteran murder-hobos with gear and experience advantages on me forcing me to reset with minimal gains if any. The forums gave me quite a few red flags that generally makes me wary of toxicity in PvP games.
@@Revenante_of_Asylum I just don't go to forums, never a good idea unless it's something like Valheim, chillaxin. But I'm used to variety of games so I get mechanics down pretty quickly so I wouldn't know a good place to learn and discuss other than friends who share the interest.
Am i the only one who cant help but ask that if choi not only left but was able to grab a substantial amount of his old coworkers maybe just maybe they were also recognizing that they werent treated well enough at nexon and that them not being able to leave and continue making games or code would only encourage abuse by companies? Add in that honestly little in dark and darker could be considered original or even an idea nexon could own would be terrible precedent? Like so what if they have the same classes? Gonna go after wizards of the coast next? None of the enemies are original. None of the spells are really original. Most of the perks again have literal translation into dnd. Even the code for enemies is basic enough to where its argueble if one should be able to claim ownership. Could maybe go after the art but if its made by the same artists and directors of course its gonna have similarities. To me this has little difference from the case pubg tried against fortnite for both being a battle royal.... the difference is dark and darker is an extraction game and p3 was a battle royal so technically even the game genre dont match fully.
You keep comparing this to the military extraction shooter games, but do those games have different classes like dark and darker have? I really enjoy playing a dedicated healer which d&d seems to have, but i don't think the shooters do. Best i ever see is a medic that can res people and thats about it.
The medics in battlefield heal and revive people 😊 but its the extraction gameplay hes comparing and most extraction games are either set in modern times or set in the future with the exception of hunt which is a cowboy setting 😊
@@Prawnsacrifice okay, that's what I thought. Imo dark and darker is way better for it's class choices and differences, though I know I'm definitely not the majority by liking to heal. Thank you!
