I'm sure this gets said fairly often but seeing the old non-gender bent (or is it the bent one now?) I think it would be cool to have a sexy male v-tuber avatar.
It did make me think how it would be fun if you’d have that old-style avatar made into a VTube avatar. Not an anime-style version of it, just in that style, for you to use once in a while
Both Ocean and Suris tend to have good positions and arguments. The empathy point is good, and the occasional delightful Snark not withstanding, Ocean does tend to put himself in the shoes of the people he's talking about well... And argues from that.
FWIW, it was stumbling upon Genetically Modified Skeptic videos - and the earnest, compassionate, well-spoken nature of them - that started my wife and I (in our thirties) down the path of leaving very harmful fundamentalist Christian beliefs that we’d held since childhood. I’ll always be grateful for that. Also, the episode of Antibot where both reacted to the “adult toy” MLM was adorable.
@@diamondflaw I somehow have missed that particular video, but I love Antibots content. I would be Antibots and GMS's friends if I met them in real life (assuming they wanted to be my friend)
I think "Rationality Rules", "CosmicSkeptic", and "Genetically Modified Skeptic" already abandon content that react to other content. Majority of their content is original content. "Belief it or not" channel also highlight abusive and unhealthy practice in religious community. They also give solution to those who trapped in abusive religious practice.
I really enjoy “belief it or not” and “Genetically Modified Skeptic.” I feel like both of them make pretty great content that addresses real issues or interesting facts about Christianity.
Drew apearently goes more against MLM and telling stories that fit and i love the talking bout how weird christian sects were mainstreamed. Pretty sure he is. And hannah and jake did too i think, and granted she makes fun of cults and people, but to be fair, a lot need help or are grifter or worse, and flat earther. I know its not specific atheist, but it was. Also its educative fun and really makes me feel bad for people in cults. And cosmic sceptic, yeah, he killed dawkins as hero i guess and ok i dont watch him that much. I think he did, and rr.
I like the point Ocean made about atheist creators needing to stand FOR something without having to depend on just responding or attacking other positions.
When one of those positions is systematically being forced into government, laws are being passed based on beliefs of that one position you damn right you attack it.
True, thats why the split between anti sjw and progressive happened, if they rely on it. It just attracts the people going anti sjw , or people exploiting that. Not people cant be edgy but make sure its not all and specify.
the majority of the atheist community is inherently FOR the separation of church and state. unfortunately that usually means being reactive in order to be proactive, and you have to play the political chess game. Unfortunately this results in trolls and troglodytes who enjoy the game more than the cause from both camps. However, you also have a good chunk of debaters who, to borrow a little from Keltoi, are still unpacking their jesus-baggage and are pissed off and/or traumatized by their religious backgrounds. My state regularly tries to codify christianity as the state religion every few years, more so after Trump won in 2016. There's usually not a pagan group who steps up to push back when this happens, so the first lines of defense are the ACLU, FFRF, or the Satanic Temple. 🤷♀️ I know we have pagan groups here, but it sucks that they aren't more involved on this front to the same degree as they are with environmental issues.
I think the point was more along the lines of expounding on the positive aspects of being an atheist (assuming there are any). Like, make the sale here. How would embracing atheism as a life philosophy improve my sense of well-being, deepen or strengthen meaningful relationships? If I'm not interested in just being angrily oppositional to pushy monotheists, what else is there on Team Atheist that would be a positive draw?
I think the issue with a lot of atheist content is that theres only so many ways to say: proove your beliefs before you base your morally questionable actions on them or base your actions on something else. a lot of atheists just want hard theists to say: we might be wrong, let's explore a morality that gives room for both our beliefs and being wrong about them.
@James Henry Smith Which god? There are many. The Javhe of the new testament demonstrably does not exist. At least not in the way it is described. I could buy the petty, spiteful, jealous and cruel god of the old testament seems plausible enough given the evidence available. The state of this world makes the concepts of a god that's good and a god that's omnipotent mutually exclusive. I'm not denying the existence of the christian god, just the christian description of it.
Can't agree with you more. Hell, I get "woo" as hell in terms of my eclectic practices. I work with all sorts of gods and 🔐 more, but, even with that, where my PGE is absolutely sky high, I'm still much more in line with atheist as one can get. The reason I can harmonize that seeming paradox is because I learned morals and ethics in spite of spirituality and religion. I learned that from introspection and acknowledging when my conscience told me "okay, that's messed up, wtf?" Because of that I get along a whole lot more with non "hard-line" atheists than I do with religious types. Hell, I'll even say that I get along a lot better with them than polytheists too.
Yeah, my ethics and morality has nothing to do with what spiritual viewpoint I have. I have a personal connection with Oden and Loke and they are awesome in so many ways, but I don't know if they would be the best source of morality for me. I feel that the ability to adhere to an external locus of morality is not a positive trait at all.
Hey, I am a highly religious Christian. Just wanted to preface that before I say I really enjoy all of your content. I found it through looking up different cultures about Scandinavians in Norse mythology. But I have always found it interesting that your takes are very unique. I’ve always been interested in other cultures, religions and beliefs. And a lot of what you talk about fascinates me. Keep up the good work. Would love to see some of your debate videos!
Glad you're checking things out. It's cool that there's Christians checking stuff out over here. It can only make you a more perceptive Christian, y'know?
Mr. Skydaddy, I'll be straight up with you. If you can't be respectful to the other people in this comment section, I'm just gonna hide you from channel and then no one will see nor care about your comments as you scream unknowingly into the void.
A few things were often-handedly mentioned in this video are things that weren’t really addressed, but bother me. Foremost, and most obvious (to me) is the sort of insistence of setting the debate as atheism vs Christianity. While of course they must necessarily be opposed, because Christianity is necessarily theistic, it often feels as though members of the atheist community see Christianity as sufficiently analogous to theism in general - leading to the generally fallacious attitude of “Christianity wrong, therefore atheism”. Of course sometimes they will address polytheists or pantheists as well, but even then it seems to be focused on specific constructions that include theistic beliefs rather than theism itself. And this brings me to the second thing that bothers me - when not atheism versus Christianity, the debate is more generically staged as atheism versus religion - and while perhaps less obvious, this is even more problematic. Certainly someone can be atheistic as well as anti-religion, but unlike with Christianity the metaphysics are not necessarily in opposition. It often seems that religion itself is viewed as an abstracted form of Christianity, incorrectly assumed to be necessarily theistic among other things. Ocean, you speak often of latent Christianity, and I feel like this is one of the most egregious examples of it - how we subconsciously allow a Christian worldview to define the entire conversation on theism and religion, leading atheists (and others) into pigeonholing even themselves as needing to take certain positions which are in fact not a necessary consequence of an atheistic metaphysics.
I’ve often had this frustration with atheists. Their communities are very much couched in opposition to not only Christianity, but a particular form of it. They will often essentialize all of religion as that form of Evangelical Christianity and then rant about the evils of religion. I think we touched on that a bit, but definitely could have gone into it more. But this was an impromptu conversation that I decided to upload so we didnt get as comprehensive on the subject as I would have liked. Definitely am going to make more content around this though.
Tbf atheism is defined by the surrounding religion. It's an example of identity rooted in defiance. Christianity is the most common topic because it's the most familiar and influencial religion in Western world. Because of that it's the religion atheists are usually against. If polytheism won the war of souls we would have more polytheistic atheists Idk about you but in my country rodzimowiercy (Polish equivalent of theistic pagans) don't even have the political power to enforce harmful laws. Catholics tho... Catholics pushed me into anti theism Which brings us to the topic of political atheism. Atheism focused less on spreading the good word of no gods and more on protecting everyone from religious persecution. Even members of other religions
I am confused. Atheists wouldn’t exist if people didn’t make up their reality and world view based on the exact same errors and wishful thinking as Christians. Why do you think Christians are the main focus? Because they are all up into controlling everything and everyone. They are the power. Just because you make up multiple Gods instead, there would still be people who focused on that and were atheists against that. Do you just use religion to mean rituals? I mean people can do whatever dumb shit they want with their time, if people want to spin around in three circles and pretend they are connecting to a higher power, ok whatever. Keep your lunacy to yourself. There is literally no way any one who actually sits down and Lola at actual reality; would just replace one god with many and pretend that is different. Literally bunch of delusional people with wishful thinking syndrome.
The moment you said 2006 I went oh well that was when Dawkins published The God Delusion.. And 2012 was about the time most of the people loudly yelling "religion is delusional" were either A: done with university, B: done with highschool and going into university or C: realising they were quoting dawkins too much and now have no friends left.
Something about this conversation was deeply depressing to me: the utter irrelevance of philosophy of religion to the atheist community. This was alluded to at 24:39. Up until that point, I was slightly annoyed at how philosophy of religion atheists were being ignored, but I came to realize that we were being ignored for a reason. We have basically no influence over the atheist community. Most of the people you mentioned would rather continue prattling on about the same five things they've been saying for over a decade and "muh sky daddy" than grow in any discernible way. There's more to it than philrel, and I'm not sure what it is, but atheism can do a lot better than what's being done now. To quote David Bentley Hart, "Something splendid and irreplaceable has taken leave of our culture-some great moral and intellectual capacity that once inspired the more heroic expressions of belief and unbelief alike. Skepticism and atheism are, at least in their highest manifestations, noble, precious, and even necessary traditions..."
I love this type of philosophical content interspersed with your myth/practice content. As a "new atheist" turned Heathen, this was an especially fun one.
I think Telltale's content makes a pretty good case for there being a need to criticize the most extreme people that anyone listens to, moreso than whoever it is the most people listen to. The fact that being consistent about this has led to him getting more political arguably says more about how religion and politics have changed than how he has: I mean, yeah, issues like creationism in schools were technically political, but that was religion trying to influence politics. Now, though, there are influential religious groups that are (much more blatantly) influenced BY their politics, and by political conspiracy theories that don't seem inherently religions.
This articulates well why I've stopped watching a lot of atheist content and now watch a lot more Biblical scholarship videos. I want to learn, and on first exiting Christianity, learning the arguments against apologetics was helpful. But now I find it more interesting to learn what the authors of the Bible were really saying, or what the early Church even looked like, replacing the faulty bias knowledge I was taught with the latest understanding by experts. I also find it more interesting to learn about other religions than to try to tear them down, which is a lot of why I even watch this channel.
Forgive me if you bring this up and i missed it, I have been around a long long time (animist now grown beyond athiesm btw) and I recall when the skeptic-athiest sphere went south, at least in my observation. Rebecca watson asked men not to approach women late night in elevators for propositions in her vlog after an awkward experience at a conference. it was such a mild critique, and everyone went nuts. Dawkins weighed in that she should be thankful she isnt in the middle east (very subtle sir). this awoke and activated the anti sjw elements in my observation, and sorted out everyone who cared about progressive politics. Atheism online was more or less abandoned to right-libertarians. This might have even been the birth o f youtube atheism itself. They're stuck in the ancient loop because they are reactionary and have nothing to say.
I was around then and I enjoyed many atheist creators I still enjoy. Dawkins of course lost much of my respect, and has lost more since. But I have dropped only two creators and added quite a few. Religious people can be just as SJW or anti-SJW, just as egalitarian and welcoming or as hateful and murderous.
Atheism is nothing more than; *"Nope, ain't buying it." The evidence presented is not commensurate with the lofty claims you are making.* I don't know what *you* think "atheism" is, but its apparently not the "answers" you seek...
@@agamgaf3407 words mean different things in different contexts, but ultimately yes I suppose you are correct. Movement atheism is exactly as vacuous as empty smug dictionary pedantry.
I am new to the channel, saw a vid a month ago, subbed a bit after and this conversation just alleviates any questions I'd have about where you stand morally and politically etc. You clearly are about learning and progressing and I am very very pleased to know you see the pitfalls of apolitical and ineffective aspects of how we learn and teach.
New Atheism wasn't even philosophically deep. The leaders of the movement - Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris etc. - took the evangelical Christian literalism in the US and the Wahhabism of al-Qaeda and worked from the assumption that religous thought has operated exactly like that throughout history. It is certainly possible to make intelligent critiques of religious faith but that requires a level of curiosity and nuance that the New Atheist movement refused to adopt. Also the rampant racism, misogyny, queerphobia etc.
The successful atheist content is normally more of a conversation. The videos that helped me the most were respectful of the Christian community while being digestible. And if they do lampoon, like Sir Sic, they are lampooning themselves too. I keep coming for respectful discourse and well researched coverage.
I feel like many atheists youtubers are out there to attack religion, but the best ones are trying to stand up for Truth. That’s the difference you were talking about between attacking an idea and defending one. Paul doesn’t just attack Biblical Literalists, he creates and a hypothesis for how we could get Christianity as a religion. Drew is trying to build bridges to foster dialogue between Christians and Atheists. Most importantly, the best Atheist youtubers can attack Christianity without attacking Christians (unless they do scummy things, at which point they’re called out for being scum, not for their religious beliefs). Far too many atheists go after low-hanging fruit and don’t seem to be aware that just because most people who, say, support child marriage are Christians, it doesn’t mean the reverse is true, as most Christians don’t support child marriage. If we can’t get more respect, we’re going to see more and more division and see that turn into extremism- violent extremism if history repeats itself.
I know so many secular American atheists who think they're venting about "all religions" but they just hated growing up in conservative Christian areas lololol. They seem to think that line about the dude in the sky really cuts deep or something - not all religions are Evangelical Christianity
What you and Suris talk about here is something I noticed a long time ago, and is definitely not limited to RU-vid IMO. When I "officially" left Christianity back in college, the obvious alternative at the time was the agnostic/atheist/humanist world, which I very quickly found to be completely stagnant. It was only concerned with arguing against religious claims (specifically Christianity and Islam), and actively refused to ever move on from it. The question I always found myself asking when living in that world was "okay, so I don't really buy into the concept of a God or of gods. What now?" And whenever I asked the "what now" question I was only ever met with hostility. The only answers with any substance I would ever get was something along the lines of "once religion is gone, we'll be living in a Star Trek utopia." Because even after leaving the religion I was raised in, I still had those existential questions and desire for some sort of spiritual framework, and atheism (and agnosticism for that matter) actively refuse to answer them (see "atheism is only a lack of belief in gods"). It offered nothing. So I moved on, and after all of these years no other religious path has been convincing to me, so I still find myself in this non-theistic space, and nothing in it has changed. I've been interested in non-theistic paganism lately as a potential framework, but that gets met with fire from all sides, which is immeasurably frustrating.
Baptist to UU to Wicca (long term) to agnostic atheist. Interested in many progressive targets, no deities required; interested in much the same egalitarian hopes as always with less baggage and more freedom.
@@Lycaon1765 Many records regarding near death and after death and apparitions,Astral travel. It talks about how it is in the after life and why these are not hallucinations but real.
Funny thing, I've been an atheist since the '70s, and had to come up with my own arguments while growing up in a Christian family in a Christian community. The arguments are the same today. The problem with atheism, which has been the problem all along, is exactly the same as the benefit, namely that it is an answer to one question. In the same way that you do not see any society being created around theism alone, you will not find a thriving true society around atheism alone. But there is, at least in Norway, a growing society that calls itself secular humanism. Skepticism on the internet, which criticizes irrational arguments in theism, is still important ... and perhaps this is reason enough to continue creating this type of content.
This was a really interesting but weird subject to write wedding thank you cards to. Since I've never been an atheist proper - though I struggle with latent atheism in the form of deep skepticism. It can be strange to see Atheists get as militant if not worse than religious people, it was nice to hear perspective on it.
Seriously? Come back when you can show atheists armed, kitted up, and swearing they are "commanded by god" to kill all non-believers. Have you ever studied and monitored the far right Christian Militias? And you're gonna dump on athiests? Pftt.
"Well what now?" That's the step so many people get stuck. Rejecting organized religion and finding your own way is hard. Its especially hard when you want to make sure your views stand up to scrutiny. I wish more atheists to get involved in rigorous study of philosophy and world religions and move beyond merely reacting to the hegemonic religion. Deconstruction hurts and constructing something new is a long process so many end up in the weird middle space that's safe.
Calling religion a mental illness will only make the term lose all clinical relevance. The overwhelming majority in any country on earth is religious in one way or another. If everyone is mentally ill no one is.
I've been pagan for a long time, and dove into atheist content due to my need for arguments against my in-laws, who tried very VERY hard to get my husband to leave me and marry someone from their church. However, now that I understand scripture and the arguments against it, I generally find atheist content boring and repetitive... Especially when the main schtick is "religion is nonsense" I'm glad it's out there, but I was also very glad to find your channel for polytheist historical content. And puns, which I've stolen from you to make my friends groan
i think that atheists recognise that atheism is just an answer to one question and the general community just doesn't care. we sustain our community mainly through anger at harm caused by religious people in the name of (though not always in the spirit of) their religion, and maintain our numbers through the constant influx of new non-believers. people assume that there must be more (because there definitely should), but because that's all that's needed to keep it going, it never really moves past that first answer. and this is disappointing for many, because that first answer can tear down a lot of someone's philosophical framework - especially if they were raised in a theistic religion - and they have to look elsewhere. i saw lots of people, mainly in the live chat, who were criticising atheism for not providing more, when that's not its purpose, and it's the fault of the atheist community and not atheism that this problem exists. we can't fix the problem without recognising what needs fixing.
The only atheist content I regularly watch are the high end ones like GMS, Prophet of Zod, Belief It Or Not, and Paulogia. I'm not an atheist but I do enjoy a lolcow video but it's more of a once in a while. Mike Winger is hard to deal with because if you strike back at him, no matter what he said, he immediately plays victim.
And the number of atheists who can make content countering Mike Winger are few due to the odd delivery and the issue of size, you need a small, almost invisible atheist content maker or Mike will find out about it and play victim.
Would like to see more content about how atheism (or really any non-christian beliefs/practices) affects daily life. The jesus ppl see him in every moment, guiding them through this existance. "What atheism got?" might be a question theyre too afraid to ask but are curious about.
21:22 I'm a former atheist turned polytheist. My reasons were 1) atheism gave me nothing and it was pretty depressing the lack of meaning. I was miserable back then. And 2) I tried some magick and it worked and I didn't expect that.
I'm atheist, the idea of "atheist conversation" is odd to me because as a group the only thing we have in common is no belief in gods. We're not some kind of monolith lol. There is no "community", or at least it's a fringe one. We don't get excited or freak out when we meet other atheists, it's not like we're a secret club lol.
Exactly what I was saying. Atheism is LACK of belief. They are talking about it as if it's some kind of belief or community. There are people that believe in Lord Xenu (Scientologists) and ALL the rest of us that don't... All of us that don't believe in Lord Xenu are not in a community, we're just atheists.
I love the content of your shows. Here is a bit of suggestion. A lot of jargon gets thrown about in these conversations won't know the meaning of. I imagine that it would be helpful for a lot of people for you to occasionally define terms and especially acronyms being bantered about.
This is whybi feel more free with polytheism. Even with atheism i felt trapped cause there is still some dogma there and some really bad rhetoric towards other religions
Just found this channel. I agree with the content about tearing things down. The reality is that most people who hold the atheist proposition seem to yield to different philosophies,for example naturalism, humanism, or otherwise. And yes it's in addition, and having that dialogue could be enriching in addition to just an atheist debate. Broader dialogues might be worthwhile, because it illustrates what one is for.
My favorite atheists to follow on RU-vid have been Sam Harris and Cosmicskeptic but that's mainly because they provide more depth to the topics they discuss with a variety of topics that never seem to end in their nuance. I understand what you mean by atheist topics being parasitic but that's mainly because the position of atheism is not like any other because it is a reactionary stance by virtue of what it is defined by. I forget who said it first but a lot of atheists actually express this desire to not want to discuss atheism but they are compelled to. Sam Harris I know has said that he would rather if he didn't discuss religion at all anymore because he finds the idea boring and beaten to death but it's not a matter of what he thinks if religious extremists are still trying to influence and change this world at the expense of others whether through force or political power. Atheism isn't a religion just like not stamp collecting isn't a hobby but if stamp collectors discriminated against people who didn't collect stamps then you would see movements developed by people who didn't collect stamps. When two atheists hangout they don't talk about their atheism. If we do it is only in response to religious actions in our lives.
Helsa! Excellent discussion! I highly enjoy ed and encourage more conversations! I'm Blotting Odhinn tonight for your continued efforts to foster this effort!
This is so weird to me. I'm an atheist and don't belong to any community but the scientific community. These people are in a theist-bashing community, not an atheist or critic community. It's sad when you free yourself of religion only to spend your life being obsessed with religion.
I have never been a fan of atheist content. So much of it boils down to "here is why this specific middle eastern religion has problems". To most it's not philosophy in and of itself, it's philosophy as response to other philosophy and that is a much weaker stance.
I think ‘it is just a lack of belief in god’ to describe what atheists believe (or don’t) can be, while correct in the broadest terms, used as a disingenuous way to relieve the communities they have fostered of the culpability of the actions and beliefs of others in the community. Like you were saying there are issues with white supremacy, anti-semitism, Islamophobia, misogyny, homophobia, etc. but because the umbrella is big and has so many sub-communities a lot of atheists don’t feel any responsibility to address them or more importantly to try to root them out and prevent them from growing.
When the skeptic community split in two over feminism, the feminist side certainly DID criticize the misogyny of their former peers. To the point where a lot of them are now more known for feminism than for atheism.
Since becoming an atheist and finding people like you and Dr Jackson Crawford, I’ve started to look at anything other that Christianity. The Southern Baptist church made me atheist…go figure. 😂 This was a very interesting conversation indeed.
I highly recommend Fundie Fridays and Mickey Atkins for empathetic evaluations with harmful Christianity, especially the kind that sneaks into your ear and leaves bias thats hard for even non Christians to shake.
In my view the fundamental problem with Atheism is that it's so hard to prove a negative without being omniscient even when you are talking about something supposedly tangible like bigfoot. How does one even begin to prove the non-existence of every sort of god imagined and all other possibilities of what a god might be that no one has thought about.
In some ways I can simply be described as post Christian. In terms of where I am in the evolution of my beliefs I'm basically a theistic agnostic meaning that I've had enough experience with the supernatural to know that there really is a spiritual reality out there that can be described as god or gods, but I no longer have a clear view on how it all fits together in a religious system. However, to me the least attractive option out there is atheism because its assertions require the very sort of epistemological leap of faith that it renounces. And my experience with so many atheists that I have met is that they tend to be as intolerant of alternative religious perspectives as fundamentalists in theistic religions and come across as potentially dangerous should they acquire enough power. The existence of fanatics does not disprove atheism in itself no more than it disproves any religion. It just proves that atheism hasn't escaped the most important problem with religion in general, namely religious intolerance.
to piggyback on one of Ocean's observations. When atheists attacks any religious perspective based on the slippery slope argument, it's exposing that it has not escaped religious intolerance and is engaging in the very behavior that they are criticizing.
This is very insightful. I’ve been a part of all the communities mentioned here and when I was involved in atheist circles it absolutely was true!!! It was all about criticizing- and it was justified- but there wasn’t anything for family. For culture/community. I don’t have a solution, and I’m a weird cookie myself so never fit in anywhere. I also have yet to find a place where I can refuse to align with either American political party and not get verbally harassed. People got free speech but I can’t stay around that(edit- I can’t stick around and get verbally pummeled)
The TLDR is that shittalking is always a crowded market and if shittalking is what you do, then you can only branch out to shittalking other things. But someone who built their business on fixing the pipes as it were, will always have an audience. There's always someone looking for help as well as entertainment.
Fascinating stream, I think you guys make a lot of good points on the failures of New Atheism, though I will note that people like CosmicSkeptic and Rationality Rules are trying to be more philosophically informed in what they do, which is hopefully at least creating a rise in more interesting and better content.
What's the "failure?" Atheism is nothing more than; *"Nope, ain't buying it." The evidence you present is not commensurate with the lofty claims you are making.* I don't know what *you* think "atheism" is, but its apparently not the "answers" you seek...
Now if only RR would actually apologize for and remove his transphobic video. Or for uncritically platforming white supremacists. I get that his intent is to be more philosophically informed in what he does, but there are times he's really bad at it and causes harm that he has shown no signs of caring about whatsoever. Cosmic has done the same but to a lesser extent on some occasions.
On the discussion of antisemitism, I feel it is actually very important that we clarify that zionism is the belief that Jewish people should have a state - this does not inherently mean that this belief is held at all costs, that crimes should be committed against others, etc. A zionist could believe in diplomatic means to achieve those ends, just as others believe in violent means to achieve them. Zionism in and of itself is not an inherently immoral position - it is the way in which Zionism is applied which may or may not be harmful. I actually think that given Jewish history, it is actually very reasonable for them to desire their own state. That desire does not imply that all zionists believe that war crimes are a just means to that end. Elsewise, an excellent discussion, and still a proud patron.
I think it's important to have various voices talking about the same thing but in different ways. Just one person (let's say Paulogia) talking about how the Kalam fails is good, but that's one perspective. But when Viced Rhino, David John Wellman, the SkepTick, Godless Engineer, and others all discuss it in different ways, I think that can connect with people. It took more than just one person explaining why the earth was older than 6,000 years before I believed it. It took more than one person before I started thinking Christianity wasn't true. Multiple voices on the same topic aren't necessarily a bad thing.
Big agree here. I think that there's a balance though between multiple voices putting their own angle on a subject, and beating a subject to death such that the entire set of argumentation becomes tired. Paulogia is great at taking the response video format and turning it into an educational show exploring various angles on the subject. I obviously disagree with him from time to time, but overall he's a positive force against creationists and others that he focuses on in a genre that is often saturated with content that is tired and repetitive. I'd say that my wording that Paul 'has it covered' is bad wording, really. He definitely operates within the genre in a way that is effective, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for others to approach it in a way that is their own and fresh when compared to the saturation. There's always room for someone like that to show up in the scene.
@@OceanKeltoi I agree completely! I'm am atheist who knows next to nothing about paganism/polytheism and haven't heard of your channel before, so I'm looking forwarding to checking out more of your videos!
I do think the Atheist community needs people like Sir sic, Paul, Aron who fight many theistic arguments and try to present atheistic arguments for others to try and think on, but then also channels like GMS, Cosmic skeptic, Rationality Rules who focus on the philosophy and talks and seeking understanding rather than debates and fighting bad ideas. And then channels like Friendly Atheist or Telltale acting a bit as an outlet of information. I do however think atheism should indeed start to move more towards the positions of GMS, Cosmic and the like that don't act like they're at war and remind people that theists and atheists can be the same and we should seek bringing everyone together despite their religious instead of alienating each other creating groups that can and most likely will be turning more vile toward one another. But also still rooting out bad ideas like flat earth, not heterosexual people deserving to be killed, trans people not being people, antisemitism... that sort from both sides. No matter if it's Kent Hovind, Lucien Greaves or whoever else.
I was raised Christian, Baptist, tried Catholicism, Islam Judaism, nothing felt right, So I became an atheist, but felt something was missing, started studying Buddhism as a philosophy, but still couldn’t find spirituality, becoming a Pagan, a Heathen seems to work for me.
Another great video. Ocean, I was wondering if you could do a video about spiritual people who forsake all types of physical medication/help/treatment even when it's absolutely necessary, in favor for spiritual healing? Like basically tackle toxic spirituality/toxic positivity?
To clarify I am in no way suggesting spirituality isn't important, I'm very spiritual and I am a norse pagan, however realistically I know that if I'm sick I need to try to seek out medical attention if I have the means and resources. I just see so many people in spiritual communities online who are extremely toxic in the sense that they refuse to acknowledge the necessity for medical attention, or they'll blame depression on some weird thing like energy.
What about rationality rules, he tries to supply the atheist emptiness (or let's called reactionary dinamics, in the sense that is only reactive to theism but doesn't offer anything) with rationality. Even if he doesn't do it in the best way, philosophy could be the supplement for meaning and tradition, depending on the philosophy you could have faith, like let's say theleological Marxism, or community like epicurians, but even then you can't have rituals. Rituals and their intrinsic meaning is a human need.
What are you talking about, 'Pilgrim?' What's the "failure?" Atheism is nothing more than; *"Nope, ain't buying it." The evidence you present is not commensurate with the lofty claims you are making.* I don't know what *you* think "atheism" is, but it's apparently not the "answers" you seek...
While I realized for certain in my mid 20s, that Christianity wasn’t right for me, I’ve nonetheless had spiritual experiences that left me in no doubt that god/s exist. I was agnostic for decades, just searching for the religious framework that resonated with me. Heathenry is that framework. I’m just thinking that atheists have had all trauma, no spiritual experiences. They can call me delusional all they want bi know what’s real for myself and that’s all that matters. Great debate.
I'm the same, I was a Christian and in my early teens had an encounter with something that makes it extremely hard for me to be atheist. Christianity doesn't work for me anymore and I deconstructed my way into Polytheism a while back, it's just a religious and spiritual framework that makes the most sense to me
Man, that brenda chick really just came into the chat to try and start shit huh? It's like people don't understand the concept of respect anymore :/ also, this was very enjoyable to watch.
Well there's only so many ways to say "the divine isn't real" and no where to go from there once that's established. When you more or less sit on all the evidence whilst the "opposing" side has essentially none (none that isn't easily dismissable) you don't really _need_ to change. No matter how stale the content is. Or really even can, at least not without simply having the channel cease to be about the original topic (moving on from atheist videos to life advice videos derived from an atheist POV for example, or just making a generic science channel). When you accept a premise that divinity is real in some sense (whatever form that is), you have bajillions of ways to go from there. How do you interact with them? What do do we already know about them? What can they teach us about ourselves? Etc. Such a premise inherently has room for expansion in discussion, whilst I would personally argue that the former doesn't. However tho most atheist content wasn't even much about that anyway in the first place I guess, so take this with a sack of salt idk
20:00 hey that's me! To me (and i do find it really comforting) i don't see that there will be anything after. It all just finally ends and it's a nice thought. That said i truly don't care enough about atheism as far as categorizing myself and i think religion can be beautiful (or can inspire awfulness! In the other side of the same coin) and thats part of why i enjoy exploring cultures experiences and religiosities
Atheist Community on you tube shouldn't be about making content it should be about realizing what is true and what is not true. I'm more of atheistic pagan but I don't believe it should be about making content it should be about discerning facts from fiction history from mythology. What really happened from what they say happened
I used to keep watching atheist channels. I was in a mood that everything supernatural must have a logical explanation and due to my fear of Hell (which has gotten less over time) I needed this. Or so I thought. What I realised is that theists channels (especially Christian) and atheist channels are the exact same. They don't get anywhere over each other, as they will always believe the same things. You can not debunk every argument from either side, and I realised this. So I checked out a near death experiences website that didn't promote any specific religion, it instead said that everyone is right, and that changed what I believed in and how I see everyone on RU-vid
14:39 I do think that's my biggest problem when I engage with discourse around Atheism, or even with Heathenry, which is: this line of logic is basically identical to nationalism. To build an imagined community of nations, you need to unify you tribes, even if they're fundamentally ununifiable(intranslateable with each other). And you will have to create an imagined antagonistic community as your Other. When I, as a Christian who really want to appreciate what you do on YT, heard people talking like Christianity is a solid rock of single unit, I always get really confused. There are probably as many types of practicing Christianity as people who present themselves as Christians, if you really ask what they think about their belief. Of course, if you want to talk about history, the word "Christianity" will have very specific (academic) historical meaning, but the problem is, most discourses don't do that: they don't define Christianity. Imo, there are two possible reasons behind this. One, they probably can't define Christianity, at least not that clearly. Two, they don't want to spend the time to actually define who they want to communicate with. However, the damage still exist under this kind of rhetoric: they will make actual people become target to throw rocks at, even though those people won't necessarily stand together. Yeah, that's really inclusive, isn't it? I wouldn't say "Heathenry" is a very unified practice which have identical belief, but the weight of care don't goes both ways. That's just how it is. That's just how the discourse I saw on YT usually gos: they're making nationalism out of religion belief. In 21 century, we still can't escape the nationalist rhetoric. Just like how we did it in the olden time.
Well "christianity"has a hell of past and issues. To be fair, people should specify what they critizize, but aside ok there are jokes that could be mean., Ok its not a monolith its hella diverse and "big churches and televangelist and hate preachers" is probably more meant.
atheist type content sure but youtubers who are atheist have not gone anywhere. Im an atheist, that wont change, but it is more entertaining to learn about the cultures of religion, like yours, than to watch someone say there is no god.
hey ocean, i absolutely love your content man. i’ve been a heathen for five years now, and i continuously find myself going back to your videos not only for myself, but i share your videos with others that are new to the faith. i was wondering if you would have any insight or opinions on the chunk of the heathen community that is very heavily rooted in misogyny and lgbtq+ bigotry. i don’t want to demand a video about the subject or anything hahahaha, i just think it’s a topic that would be an interesting and important concept to discuss. anyways, keep making your amazing content man :)
The videos on Gay Vikings where I touch on that, Toxic Masculinity, and Folkism might be good starts. I've been focusing on educational videos lately, but I do agree that there's a problem there within the broader Heathen community.
@@OceanKeltoi i was hellenic pagan for a bit but i wanna lean more towards witchcraft and celtic gids but i have been fairly interested in the norse for a bit.
When arguing with theists (especially the likes of young earth creationists) who always come with the same claims, well-thought or absurd and refuted a thousand times, there are only so many ways to say the same things back (and basic facts do not change). Unfortunately, we need someone to counter their absurdities, and those who take up the duty risk burnout without some way to mitigate the monotony or change the pattern, expand the horizon.
@Caleb Gillock What are you talking about? Atheism is nothing more than; *"Nope, ain't buying it." The evidence you present is **_not commensurate with_** the lofty claims you are making.* I don't know what *you* _think_ "atheism" is, but it's apparently not the "answers" you seek...
This video makes the same mistake the "Why are young people leaving the church" ones do: lack of market research. When you're selling a product, you need to look at the market, the trends, the Total Addressable Market. Who are YOUR customers? What do your customers want? The simple business model questions. With four people leaving out the church back door for every one they drag kicking and screaming to the baptismal font, that's a certain market. Life-long atheists are a different market. Personally I've un-subbed the atheist creators who haven't moved past Orange Man Bad and "insurrection" talking points. If that's the culture, you don't have one. You then fall into the same trap Thomas Sowell wrote about with the confusion of social justice with "cosmic" justice. Plus it's all just really tired.
What are you talking about? Atheism is nothing more than; *"Nope, ain't buying it." The evidence you present is **_not commensurate with_** the lofty claims you are making.* I don't know what *you* _think_ "atheism" is, but it's apparently not the "answers" you seek...
As someone who has traversed from Christianity through Atheism and on into Heathenry, I would contend that the 'culture' of Atheism is in many aspects or perhaps of many Atheists a culture of almost absolute, skeptical empiricism. They are the ideological descendants of Doubting Thomas. And while a very rigid and strict view of the universe, it is one for which many valid arguments could be made. It is a culture that values hard sciences to the point that you could say science itself is the religion of Atheism. It is also a culture that values the here and now of life and existence, lacking both evidence and belief in anything more than our brief, frail, uncertain mortal existence. That is a kind of a stoic bravery. I do know (for I was this way myself) that Atheists can be arrogant, dismissive, and condescending when addressing people espousing spiritual experiences or beliefs. That is a perhaps a common pitfall for the culture of Atheism. But, I think it is also dismissive to say that Atheism lacks a culture of its own, or only stands against cultures. And, I think it unfair to allow an implication to flow from that that Atheism does not have elements that would make for a worthwhile culture. The easiest example is to simply state that we benefit from their scientific fervor... probably magnitudes more than what we suffer from their misguided condescension.
Basing your identity on not believing in gods is not very productive. It's a perfectly fine stance but as an identity it becomes rather reactionary if that is what you're basing your content on. I was like that myself in my teens as a rowdy and angry punk. I was very concerned with everything I was against but not investigating what I was for. Other than getting drunk and making out with cute punk girls.
What are you talking about? Atheism is nothing more than; *"Nope, ain't buying it." The evidence you present is **_not commensurate with_** the lofty claims you are making.* I don't know what *you* think "atheism" is, but it's apparently not the "answers" you seek...
@@agamgaf3407 Jikes, I thought my comment was a bit of a mess. What do you imagine atheism is beyond the absence of belief in a deity? And what is your weird sentence supposed to convey? Try to de-pretentious your language, you don't master the academic jargon enough to be coherent. Also, if you didn't understand that I was referring to the way some people do atheism, not the concept itself, at all, maybe you are not as clever as you think.
Why ? All athiesm is just not blindly believing your fairy tell that you cant even proof that it exsist that its . and in most cases much better then being a relgious person
sargon has moved on on how he presents content in the last few years taking dome inspiration from Tim pool and mainly focuses on politics rather than religion
Guys as I was coming out of a mild fever-dream I thought to myself something like "always check a gift-horse's mouth for runes carved on it's teeth". I'm not sure what to make of it, lil' help?
Suris is 100% correct. There are so many channels in the atheist community who just make fun of low hanging fruit coming from extreme Christian RU-vidrs. That's easy, and while some of it needs be responded to, it's too easy to mock it instead of forming a cogent response. This is why we need about 100 more Holy Koolaids and about a thousand fewer Sargons. In other words, let's leave the rather embarrassing r/atheism days behind us.
@@OceanKeltoiI don't know why I didn't see this until now, but I firmly disagree. Holy Koolaid was such a deep-rooted Christian that he literally went to college to study Ancient/Koine Greek to understand the original text of the New Testament. Many of his videos are about interpretations. I don't claim to have seen all of his videos, but I don't see him attacking the low hanging fruit literalist arguments. I see him dismantling King James types based on how those verses were interpreted.
