What Have We Learned from the Pandemic?: A Conversation with Nicholas Christakis 

I wanna see Sam go back on joe rogans podcast for a covid conversation

“Vaccines are free to the citizenry” is not an answer to “profit motive” the citizens are paying billions for the vaccines.

The airbag analogy was almost perfect, but he forgot to mention how Takata airbags were recalled many years later for exploding metal parts killing people.

We all miss Christopher. Thank you for bringing up his memory. It's been 10 years without him.

"The vaccines are free to the citizenry" Free? Who is paying for them if not the citizenry of taxpayers?

If so many health workers refuse the vaccine - maybe instead of mocking them you should try to understand their concerns.

He keeps mentioning the 1 out a 100 chance of dying if you get covid. That seems totally ridiculous.

It so happens I have contacts in various countries but France most directly. Wouldn’t it raise questions when doctors are suddenly forbidden to prescribe a drug that could up to then be prescribed freely? And more recently, five more drugs that doctors were using successfully to keep patients out of hospitals? And doctors risking prison in Australia for mentioning Covid treatment possibilities? Whether there is some hysteria going on in the governmental and political arena or what, it raises questions.

This is a perfect case where I’d like to see the amount of dislikes to get a gauge where everyone’s at

Listened to the whole thing. Won't get that time back.

I literally come on this hoping to get a better perspective on the pandemic, and Sam goes onto answer none of the tough questions that others bring up. Why don’t you actually engage with someone ? Theirs so many inconsistencies and you don’t engage in any of them. The problem is the mandates, the FDA, and the pharmaceutical industry involvements and coverups that have been released and you properly cover any of it.

Would have preferred a podcast where the guest could bring out each one of the major arguments held by the other side and show why those arguments are false. That would have been valuable. Rather than starting with the premise that the other side are incompetents (or have a medieval level of competency ), stating that the other side believes lies (without proving that assertion) and general straw-manning by taking extremes as a starting point, or telling us things they could not possibly know (e.g. what Trump was thinking at the time?) Overall - very disappointing.

This guest is so strangely excited about this whole situation, bizzare. He does not know how to win people over, he straight up asked Sam - "Why do you care about those people ?" Lol this is exactly why Sam has these conversations, to convince those who are against or hesitant. I'm double vaccinated, but authoritarian BS that this guy is so happy about goes out the window in my world. You open everyone up to making their choice, advise them at best of your ability to take it, but without sanctimonious preaching or belittling.

The issue with this podcast and the whole tone of the debate on both sides is the feeling that, "unless you think like me, you are an idiot". Even as someone who has now had 3 doses of the vaccines, I can see legitimate concerns for not having it. In hindsight a lot of money could have been saved by just not vaccinating young healthy people, considering it turned out that the vaccines did not decrease transmition. It's also disingenuous to say the vaccines are free. Maybe in the US? In the UK the billions spent will eventually be took back through our taxes.

I am a simple man. I hear this is "previous administration's fault" and no mentioned of this administration and fauci's fault and I stopped listening. RIP Hitchens

Bottom line: Those in charge of messaging "The Science" have basically lost credibility.

I don't know about "Making Sense". Seems a better title would be "Looking Down".

29:00 - "The central function of the government is to keep the citizenry safe." I would disagree. The central function of government should be to secure the rights and liberties of its citizen and garantuee constitutional processec. If safety was the central function, smoking and alcohol would be banned and bicycle helmets would be mandatory. They would also have to create diet-camps for everybody above a BMI of 30.

I was really hoping they would delve into the data surrounding natural immunity here, and the data on the risk of myocarditis from vaccines/covid a bit further. Very disappointed with this PSA..

Debate Peter McCullough, Sam. 2 million dollars in it for you. You are right and he's insane, correct? How can you pass it up?

We have learned that by causing extra fear and panic, people will turn on their neighbors, friends, and families, and give up their own rights in order to feel safe. Even if the safety is nothing but pure imagination or an illusion.

I listened to this podcast expecting a more open minded view. But was disappointed once again. There are a lot of doctors and scientists who disagree on the science and treatment. Why not have them on and have a two sided fact based debate. Don't have ppl you agree with. Rogan suggested Dr McCullough debate someone who is pro vaccine, and the Dr agreed. Now that's courage and honesty. And please forget Trump, he's just a distraction. Why bring him up again.

I’ve listened to both this interview and Joe Rogans interview with Dr. McCullough in their entirety. They’re as opposite as night and day.

Sam have you seen the data from Ontario study? 1 in 3000 getting myocarditis

Show me evidence that the masks that children actually wear in school, which are usually blue surgical or cloth masks, including the manner in which they realistically wear and maintain them throughout the day, actually does more good than harm overall.

Honestly, I had to step back and take a breath after this one. As someone who respects open discussion, rational and logical thinking above all, I was very disappointed. Not only the points were supported by incorrect/old or at least absolutely one sided data, but there was such lack of critical and investigative thinking that I was left baffled. To deny pharmaceutical companies' lack of integrity and transparency, it's opportunistic profit hoarding in the face of this crisis is insane. I cannot believe that these two knowledgeable people never looked up available factual information on how many lawsuits and settlements there have been in the history of these companies, who are they funding, what are the controversial decisions made by the organizations that they're funding. They cherry picked all possible information that could support their opinion and yet presented everything in a such patronizing and judgmental way that I can't believe this is what they genuinely believe themselves.

Seems like this sam guy and his guest are caught up in the mass formation I recently learned about.

Man the passage of time is frightening. 10 years since hitchens died is crazy.. I was so confident in what I stood for back then now I feel like everything is crumbling around me

Sam thank you for providing this video in full

41:52 the guest downplays the Cutter Incident as "a few people" getting sick. The mistake produced 120,000 doses of polio vaccine that contained live polio virus. Of children who received the vaccine, 40,000 developed abortive poliomyelitis (a form of the disease that does not involve the central nervous system), 56 developed paralytic poliomyelitis-and of these, five children died from polio. The exposures led to an epidemic of polio in the families and communities of the affected children, resulting in a further 113 people paralyzed and 5 deaths. I wish I could articulate it better but you can feel the bias of Sam and the guest and that they're constantly straw-manning rather than steel-manning.

The devining of Donald Trump's thought and evil intentions at the beginning queered the whole discussion for me. Then, no discussion of "naturally acquired" immunity, mandates (obviously resulting in backlash), and the politicization of this whole outbreak from the media, including censoring so many conversations, that has produced a lot of the skepticism.

Hi I’m in the crazy camp as you described. Would be great to see a debate between this doc and the pier Cory, peter mccullough. And between Sam and Bret. Rogan can mediate but if you think he is biased other neutral options would good too. A conversation like this leaves too many questions still.

I generally agree with the stance of both speakers but there were some doozies in this. The idea that antelope would never slow without lions in clearly wrong, the selection for greater speed is not without metabolic cost, and the absence of lions would exert pressure towards conservation of that metabolism. The assertion that profit motives aren't applicable because the vaccine is "free to patients" was just shockingly ludicrous. Selective use of statistics were in full force, a 30 percent reduction in a vanishingly small chance in death from many young people regarding COVID is not the no-brainer it's being sold as here. It's always telling when only risk reduction is discussed rather than risk of mortality. Too much congratulatory agreement here, not Sam at his best.

Man this guy is an ‘expert’ ?? God help us. They can’t see the forest for the trees. Listening to you two talk has made me all the confident in my decision to wait on taking these.

I can’t tell you how happy I am that Alan Watts talks will be available on the app! Not only because I absolutely love Watts, and his talks are of great comfort to me, but because I am discovering that Sam Harris, who is the other person on this earth that is helping illuminate my spiritual journey, also loves Watts… For me this is 2 world colliding that I didn’t know where connected and finding out that they are just gave me great comfort and reassurance that I am looking in the right direction for enlightenment. Thank you Sam Harris! I have been a fan for many years, you are truly helping me in my life’s journey to inner peace and equanimity.

Funny at the end, he says there’s probably 5 people left listening, the 5 people who agree with them.

Many good points made in this episode and some sound arguments to use in good faith conversation with someone who might not be vaccinated, but it got very tiring to listen to and I certainly wouldn't suggest anyone who is unvaccinated listen to it as a way of trying to convince them. I'm for the vaccine but it's disappointing how Christakis could barely seem to contain himself the whole way through. Clearly laughing to himself at how obvious all of this should be to everyone and cussing throughout. Sam, I find it hard to believe (maybe I shouldn't) that you said you put the whole podcast out as a public service announcement. This continued sneering elitism is what makes me think the hesitant and full blown av'ers aren't going to take any more notice of this than anything that's already out there and why should they when you show them such contempt? This was two guys with a total lack of self-awareness, preaching to the choir. Even something as basic as the comparison between health experts and car mechanics as people who don't lie/rip people off was embarrassing. I found the conversation is stuck in hard science and numbers but neither can account for just how people feel. Science doesn't seem to be able to determine any sort of line for justifying the means to the end or even what the end is. How far do we go with the laws and restrictions before we just feel that the decreasing number of lives we're able to save simply aren't worth the negative impact on the lives of everyone else? I think we have to be able to say at some point we have protected as many people as we can, those who can get vaccinated have chosen to do so, others take their chosen risk. There comes a point where total sum of unhappiness caused by subsequent deaths must be less than that caused by everyone living every hour of every day, bombarded by meaningless statistics, political wars, ever changing rules and laws, economic problems, job losses and social division? I don't have an answer to that, even for myself right now and I'm worried we don't have the kind of strong, courageous leadership in the west to get us out of this when fearmongering and "benevolent" restrictions are incentivised in the realms of media and politics. We've learned many things from this pandemic but it's clear that you haven't learned a lot about communicating with people.

This is a pretty devoid of valid counter arguments and evidence honestly. It’s depressing. The “paranoid” perspective is only paranoid because that’s easier to quickly dismiss than confronting the real and disturbing actions of whoever’s side. It’s not very paranoid to suspect considering the opioid crisis alone. There’s flagrantly unethical policies in all areas enacted decades ago, double speak, clear profiteering of a few and up until present that went largely, happily ignored for identity politics and not seeing the disastrous bipartisan policies consequences in real time because we zoomed in on the “wins” and over indulged in opposing side critique while neglecting the home teams ineptitude. Trump is not good, and he sucks for many reasons, but he is not the reason people feel like this now. That is a mistake that only those exempt from the real woes of inflation, vaccine hesitancy and mandates, gas prices, blatant lies in the media or lack of addressing real issues that lead to disdain of this administration. This is a lost cause elite liberal fallacy and will only lead the democrats off a cliff faster than they are doing themselves. Look at the votes thus far, and then double down...gosh.

Sam should have pushed on the natural immunity topic, as Nicholas is referencing a single study from the CDC against numerous other studies from around the world showing the opposite. Giving people a pass, or worse changing your mind to agree with them, just because they are on "your side" is the massive group think problem we are facing and not helping the vaccine hesitancy at all!

Sam Harris is an enigma. His calling card is intellectually-honest thought. However, while he hands you the card, his rhetoric slides into dogma, stiff-necked compliance with authority he deems "good" (albeit proven-wrong over and over again.) Sam yearns for a universe where Christopher Hitchens is alive and speaking out. I'm not sure Sam would be happy with Christopher's take on both the "pandemic," and his (Sam's) knee-bending.

They harp on about the risk being 1/100 but that's a average. If you are a 18 year old fit healthy male I can understand why you would be pi$$ed if someone was for all intensive purposes forcing you to get vaxxed.

Can anyone say, "Echo Chamber?" Listened to the entire podcast. Christakis is insane, and many of the things he says are provably untrue.

In the words of Christopher Hitchins: "For Shame! For Shame!" Shame on you Mr Harris. What happened?

Someone please explain to me how an unvaccinated person can infect a vaccinated person or is really dangerous to the vaccinated.

About an hour from the end SH does a fairly good job in steelmanning some of the vaccines/public elite skeptics’ positions, and NC a good job of talking them through. But throughout there’s such a condescending general dismissal, mockery and name calling of those with different perspectives I don’t see how this can be effective in changing many people’s minds.

Christakis warns of side effects of having masks in schools, whilst laughing off side effects of vaccines in children

Sam is not touching this topic with a barge pole, and it's very sad to see, I've been a fan of his work for over a decade since my early teens. He puts all alternative ideas into the same conspiracy bin, these are important issues and conspiracies do happen, I'm very sad to see one of my favourite thinkers cower.

1:10:45 My car mechanic never told me that I shouldn't drive with low oil, unless I'm going to a BLM rally in which case it's perfectly safe. My car mechanic never said that auto-parts will be given out in order of the customer's race. My car mechanic never told me that it's ok to drive on flat tires because the air pressure machines were in high demand and he wanted to save them for those with important cars. The credibility of the expert medical associations is in the toilet. And they shit it there.

We have learned that some academics have only snorts of derision as their response to information they don’t want to deal with in real time, preferring to slather snooty platitudes all over it as if that’s enough to fool a balanced mind. Have fun getting it wrong again.

Can we explain the rare adverse events of the vaccines (like blood clotting)?

I’ve learned that most people will do what they’re told.

I can't believe he said you'd rather have a heart attack than covid wowww what a bad example come on guy

Many listeners, few likes, and lots of comments. Can only imagine what the dislikes would be?

I am deciding to listen to this despite better judgement.

I think Sam asked all the right questions and did a good job playing Devil's Advocate, even if he made it clear where he stands. It was Nick Christakis's responses I found unconvincing. I think Dr. Chistakis is arguing in good faith and I still hold him in high regard, but I think he's too trusting of the medical establishment of which he's a part of. I also didn't like how he dismissed concerns about myocarditis as "rare" and "they'll be fine" while not seeing the difference between taking a chance of exposing a child to a virus where the risk of hospitalization or death to a healthy child is virtually 0 and intentionally exposing them to a vaccine with known risks, even if they're small. He could have also addressed the disappearance of the paper about myocarditis and the censorship of hcq and ivm on social media. The solution to bad science should be good science, not censorship. When he asked what would convince someone who is skeptical, I thought, Stop censoring and hiding dissenting information that would allow people to make informed decisions, which makes it hard to believe the establishment is acting in good faith.

How many boosters should I take masser?

Am I listening to two intellectuals talking about covid or a CNN segment, my God

Vaccines are free!!?? Dude come on, you’re smarter than this.

“The vaccines provide superhuman immunity.” Fucking LOL

22:00 If Fauci said to that throwing clay pots out the window "stopped the spread" Harris would do it, because "science".

I’m fully vaccinated. I did it solely for social responsibility. But now that I know it won’t stop the spread I’m out. A healthy society doesn’t risk children for the elderly. These vaccinations should be widely available and free to the public, but never mandated. We ended forced experiential medical treatment after WW2 for a very good reason.

Sam, discussions like this are so important, and I wholly trust where your heart is. But I am very disappointed that you did not.choose to involve someone who actually holds these alternative beliefs . It was not at all a challenge to see the holes that such a person would see in your framing of their perspective. You can do better!

I've learned that it's amazing that humans have lived this long . . .

I'm surprised they can scoff at the masses so hard and still breathe at the same time.

Why is it so hard for Sam to figure out that people have different levels of risk tolerance. The fact of the matter is, a large portion of this country decided that they were willing to accept the level of risk posed by covid. For most of us, this was not a reckless decision. It made sense. When do the fearful get to dictate to the fearless how to live their lives? How high does the level of risk have to be?

Looking forward to Sam's discussion with Dr. Peter McCullough, MD who Joe Rogan spoke with at length.

Thanks for this discussion. Very good .and agreement with being open to looking on and sharing debate and looking at conflicted datta and not overlooking datta because it doesn't fit.thanks again

There are plenty of people like me suffering long term side effects since the vaccine but the side effects are so subtle we haven't even been to the doctor yet. So we're not in the stats. Sore arm since Summer last year, quicker out of breath from working out, odd heart beat at random times, swelling which comes and goes. (And Yes I've finally made arrangements to see a doctor after putting it back for so long.) I'd hoped this podcast would help me feel more positive about it but it just frustrated me how they so casually brushed aside any concerns/hesitancy without going deeply into the reaons why.

Strange, no mention of VAERS when talking of vaccine safety.

Sam is really good at being 2-3 months behind on the pandemic.

If these people were serious about curbing this virus they would pull out all stops. There are other avenues to take but they refuse because there's no money to be made.

Was just thinking about Hitch's take on contemporary events, and then this popped up in my recommended. I have to think Christopher would be dealing with more than his fair share of cancellation efforts. He certainly wouldn't have held his tongue. RIP you brilliant man.

"The definition of polio also has changed in the last six or seven years. Several diseases which were often diagnosed as polio are now classified as aseptic meningitis or Illnesses caused by one of the Coxsackie or Echo viruses. The number of polio cases in 1961 cannot accurately be compared with those in, say 1952, because the criteria for diagnosis have changed" Chicago Tribune, March 5th, 1961

Has Dr. Christakis ever treated a covid patient?

NC's "just get a foreign vaccine if you're so worried" brush-off is disconcerting. Can't be as easy as most of the normal consumer or even healthcare choices Americans can make. What's more disconcerting is their flippant confidence that anyone who isn't down for an MRNA vaccine wouldn't get a traditional vaccine anyway.

I'm glad I actually made it through, as open minded as possible. I was hoping for a knock-out presentation of evidence in favor of Covid vaccines and mandates. Made it all the way through only to hear this guy's true colors come out "why should we care what those people believe!?". That tells me all I need to know about your reasoning. I wonder why there is a declining opinion of science in America..

I'd like to fact-check Nicholas on the 1% death rate of covid :D Also if we were to accept this seemingly very high number: we all know the severity varies a lot by age and co-morbidities. So this is just one point where they are clearly arguing with a straw man. I'm unvaccinated and listened to the whole damn thing, god knows why... Maybe I want to demonstrate my willingness to listen. It wasn't at all convincing me though.

I am halfway the podcast and wondering if Sam is going to apply the tactic he has been known to use: "steel-man the argument". I haven't heard anything about the fact that only obese, old and sick people die from Covid. I also haven't heard anything about preventive protocols that seem to work in prevention. Also nothing about the South=African data on the fact hat Omicron seems pretty much harmless.

I would take another pandemic rather than suffer through another minute of such close-minded arrogance.

I felt compelled to respond to this episode - as its bias was so obviously framed from the outset, undermining any sort of intellectual public service intent. I hoped it would redeem itself as it got deeper into the conversation but sadly it persisted to the point of hard to listen to name calling of the "other" opinion (if it is the "wrong" opinion). For me there is far more good faith dialogue and debate in the comments which says more about the respectful nature of the listeners in both camps (in the main) than was delivered by the conversation itself. Surely that points to an audience that is listening to lots of opinion and is desperate for adult debate between informed and impassioned experts. Rather than this rather derisory one sided echo-chamber monotone which is clinging to the answer to his mess being so binary.

I was vaccination hesitant for a long time, but I eventually got it. What I can tell you is that every time I listened to a guy like this it only prolonged my hesitation. Any valid question that is brought up he laughs at, like "why were the democrats refusing to take the vaccine?" and he just treats the unvaccinated with contempt. It makes it hard to trust anything he says. Even if he is justified in his attitude, the way he conducts himself only makes things worse. I honestly regret getting the vaccine a bit after this podcast.

Wow. I had no idea that Nicholas Christakis was such an authoritarian. He really seems excited by the idea of lockdowns, curfews, the banning of gatherings, etc. 😢

I’m not at all convinced Hitchens would be in your camp these days.

So it's Joe Rogan, Bret Weinstein, Eric Weinstein, Dave Rubin, Ben Shapiro, Heather Heying, Maajid Nawaz and Jordan Peterson who are worried about the bio-fascist Orwellian nightmare, and on the other side Sam gloating about his next booster in QR code hell. Good thing he handed back his IDW card.

I've been a fan of Sam for 10+ years. I got both shot but this video is just full of condescension and will do little to sway people and poorly research. I expected better from someone I admire greatly.

Nicholas Christakis, the thing you don't understand is that people who decide against being vaccinated are not all saying that "there is nothing going on". Statements like that (2.34.40) are polarizing, and quite frankly annoying and a misrepresentation of what "we" say or think. Also: where was the conversation about prevention, living a healthy life (style), exersizing, taking your vitamins and minerals and the negative effects of school closings?

Alan Watts, yes sir! I absolutely LOVE the way he thought. He was a very intelligent man, extensively unique as well.

There is a difference between being pro-vaccine and pro-vaccine mandate. Latter is dangerous 😢

This guy tried to compare a heart attack being worse but you had to call him out and point out that it was only if your were hospitalized…. Really? Hitchens is squirming in his grave Sam wake up

A 1% death rate would be serious indeed. How badly do you want that to be the truth? You were so proud of yourself for being ahead of the curve, in the Spring of 2020. You’re deeply invested, personally, in being right about this. It has clouded your ability to assess the totality of the actual evidence.

Wanted to say I think you dropped the ball when dr. Nicholas Christmas said that personal conviction is not a valid reason but religious exemption would be. You should have challenged him on this. IMAO it is either or. Can't be both.

I think Hitchens would have been a Trump Supporter, one that would have criticized him whenever due, but ultimately would have supported him

This podcast is going to have the exact opposite of the intended effect.

Dissapointeded. Official treatment guidelines never evolved during this disaster. There was so little flexible or even proactive response for two years within health communities and agencies supposedly driving the bus. The pretense was deafening. And the suppression epic.

I enjoyed the dialog and learned some data points, seemed like a typical overly educated "trust my side" of the science talking points parodied everyday by journalist on TV. I would like to see Peter McCullough and this guy have a scientific conversation.

The problem with the "trials" is they gave the drugs late when they where unable to have an effect.

So, Nic is not caring for any Covid patients. That would have been a very important disclosure at the beginning of the podcast.

Vitally important question not asked: Why does an audience that once greatly respected you and your guests no longer find either credible?

I really dislike the speed limits analogy and just as a mental exercise I wanted to see how the comparison would look and where it breaks down. Keep in mind there are a lot of assumptions here. 1.) The car is the individual so everyone has a car just because they exist, nobody can opt out of buying a car. Manufacturers are your parents, the government regulates your parents regarding how they create you based on agreed standards, diversity of looks but not in width, safety systems and if the car has serious flaws the state requires they be recalled. 2.) Everyone is tested before they can drive on public roads, getting a drivers license is not optional and is issued by the state, there are no privately issued drivers licenses. Everyone is required by law to take/pass a state issued test before they can interact with society, if you don't and are caught then you are penalized severely. 3.) Every car must be licensed by the state, otherwise you cannot get insurance. 4.) Everyone carries auto insurance in the event that they cause harm to themselves or others, otherwise there are consequences issued by the state if caught. Everyone must have health insurance and if you spread an illness to someone else your insurance covers the costs for you and them up to a limit, you can be sued for damages. 5.) Everyone maintains their own car with their own money. Your personal health is your responsibility so the healthier you are the better your insurance rates will be. 6.) Everyone pays taxes to build/maintain public roads because everyone owns a car and those additional taxes are applied to the maintenance of the public roads. 7.) Private highways and roads are equal to those on your own property, the state only regulates those in public spaces but can sell them when they become unmanageable. Just because speed limits exist, there are always going to be those that don't conform (ie: I drive too slow, my mother drives too fast.) Even regarding this analogy it doesn't hold up as the average driver speeds by more than 5mph while driving so why would anyone ever use this as an argument when trying to convince people to get a vaccine, is the claim that the average citizen will get multiple vaccines? Do you think you can convince possibly the most diverse society of humans to abandon their personal beliefs so you can reach 100% vaccination and if your claim is yes, why can't you do the same for the flu shot each year, obesity, smoking or dogmatic thinking? I don't think you can get above 90% vaccination without either 1.) An authoritarian government or 2.) A homogenous culture and even then you'll be hard pressed considering China seems to possess both and still can't be trusted to report truthfully. It seems to me that you error on the side of caution and leave each person to decide what is best for them, otherwise I would like to see someone take responsibility for convincing someone to inject anything into themselves and pay for the fallout if something goes wrong. If the government (society), pharmaceutical companies and podcasters won't take accountability for adverse effects then it seems it all rests on the individual anyways so maybe a mandate isn't the appropriate action.

Like Sam, Americans can't learn anything because they know it all. ~