Sanguinus had said himself every spare moment, "just wait for guilliman he will come" and "even if roboute doesnt come in time for salvation he will come late enough for retribution" In echoes of eternity
Reading what you said made me imagine a conversation of Sanguinus what does your father’s gift of future sight tell you of Guilliman? He sees Guilliman on Terra killing the traitors. It’s a fixed point in predictions. I believe it’s also in the story ‘the board is set’
The love and trust Sang had for RG is so awesome. He knew that if G showed up the traitors would be brought to ruin and if he was late he had total faith that RG would prosecute a campaign of retribution never seen before in human history.
Worth considering: the Angel personally killed a ridiculous number of titans during the siege. Him removing those may have been worth more than the additional marines. Plus, he personally stopped breakthroughs, banished Angron, and inspired the troops.
I disagree. There wasn’t a primarch better suited to being Dorn’s right hand man at Terra than Guilliman. Just look at his response when Angron and Lorgar attacked Ultramar. They had 2 legions, 2 Primarchs, an absolutely crushing surprise attack, demonic allies, and warp sorcery that couldn’t just be nullified by the Emperor. And the Word Bearers were the 2nd largest legion at the time, so it’s not like he had some great numbers advantage. Despite that, he was able to absorb the surprise attack, survive, rally his forces, launch a counterattack, and send both of them running back to Horus with their tails between their legs. Hell, he very nearly managed to kill them both without any help from other legions. Guilliman’s talents would’ve been absolutely devastating to the traitors at Terra. Every demonic trick up their sleeves would’ve been reacted to and countered.
As a raid boss Sanguinius was a good contender but think about it Guilliman is so organized every squadron of marines is a squadron of mini bosses themselve. Guilliman would probably be way more level headed and he'd call Horus bluff possibly saving the emperor and holding out for Blood angel and Dark angel reinforcements.
In the Siege of Terra novels, Horus is constantly complaining that the Gulliman did not turn to Chaos, I kind of interpret from the story that Gulliman is doing some major damage is the rear. As the Vengeful Spirit continues to get updated data of their forces the units that Horus left behind is slowing and methodically being eliminated every minuet and hour Horus takes to kill the Emperor. All of Horus’ forces are contained in the Sol system. I can interpret the panic and frustration at the end of the novel ‘Echos of Eternity.’
Horus ceased to be himself late in the siege and particularly after Molech. Horus was showing signs of senility as a result of his "bargin" with the ruinous powers He knew the XIII and I Legions were going to arrive imminently The Traitors had lost. It was an act of spite what he did to The Emperor. It ruined the goldern future for humanity The Emperor had laid out. I'd personally smash Erebus' head with my bare hands if I could.
Horus imo was more upset that of the 3 strategist brothers he got 1 only Gulliman was arguably the most influential piece on the board, had he been a traitor he could have taken Terra before any reinforcement came
There were a lot of reasons why Horus didn't want Bid Daddy G there. He had the largest legion: His legion could have reinforced the walls many times over he was adaptable: Whatever loses they went through won't happen a second time. A master of logistics: Supplies would be running so smoothly that they wouldn't be worried. Able to move troops around with such efficiency. And most of all, Horus himself said that Big Daddy G knew war as well as he did.
Yeah, add that to the fact that they had absolutely no shot if both Dorn anf Girlyman were there at the same time. Sure, Perty is very competent, but he can't beat Dorn and Ghilliesuit at the same time working together in a siege scenario, even if they did have Angron and Mortation. They barely even managed to break through with just Dorn there.
@@justinokraski3796I don't know man, maybe multiple ready astartes + Guilliman's stellar command. His fleets, his sons, his mastery of grand strategy, and the fact that he would've known to drag it out once he realized Horus was getting desperate. Maybe long enough for Russ, Lion, and Sanguinius to come and beat the shit out of the traitor brothers
I’m not even a Guilliman fan but he was a logistics genius with a massive legion. Add him in with Dorn & the Fists and they would definitely have held out long enough for the other loyalists to arrive. Purterabo was already getting tired of his fellow traitor primarchs, with Robot Galleyman he definitely would’ve left earlier.
Especially if Horus still decides to give command to Mortarion. Perty might even dip out the second Roboute is confirmed to be in the Sol system. He knows he alone can’t match both of them. Horus is a great commander but Leman did do a number on him and the chaos koolaid got him a little too sauced to bring his full command capabilities to the front and actually match guilleman.
I think Guilliman VS Ka'bandha would of been a different fight because Sanguinius dropped that Daemon like a true Angel! However by numbers alone The UltraMarines could of brought a fight like no other to the traitor Legions!
There would be no ka’bandha on terra without the angel. Ka’bandha was only allowed on terra after given the tasks of killing 500 blood angels in front of Sanguinius to regain his power. Without that, Khorne wouldn’t have allowed him on terra. But I suspect another would take his place… or perhaps not. However I don’t think guilliman would even make planet fall. He would battle in space. If the war is won there… then the war is won on terra. However, if it’s lost? Terra still stands. I find this strictly logical and less risky.
@@TheSmaaaak the Lion could have done, pretty sure Dorn, Jaghatai, or Guilliman could have done it as well. Seeing as how they are not as self sacrificing as Sanguinius though, they probably would gone about it differently.
@@phillipgouthier5525 I still say only sanguinius could have held the gate when he did. however would that situation have even played out if he was replaced?
While Guilliman alone could not do much against Horus, Angron, or the greater deamons, but that’s not where his true strength lies. The size of his legion alone is a bane to any of the traitors. If not the numbers then the tactics of the legion are a great threat that Horus no doubt recognizes. Though what would really dam them would be the combined might of the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fist, the stubborn defense of the sons of Dorn and the superior tactics of the sons of Guilliman, I just don’t see the Traitors breaking that line and even if they do, not without great loss. If there an unbeatable team up in 40k Guilliman and Dorn are the frist that come to mind.
Guilliman could eat most of the greater daemons alive . It's the special ones like kabandah and doom bred that would be the challenge. Even lorgar beat greater daemon of khorne.
I completely agree with you. I think in terms of fighting Guillimans is probably in the upper/ middle of his brother, BUT he scales up when he's angry. The fact that he caught lorgar and right after caught Angron and only left because Angron turn into a demon says a lot. I lol say that Guilliman vs mortarian was really 1v1 the whole time sisters of silence really helped him. But I honestly think Guilliman is like obiwan Kenobi, he's a 7-8 out a 10 that can box with 9 and 10s when pissed
No he could not. Not personally. The Great angel was a warrior without peer and Gulliman while a tremendous martial force in his own right, would never have been able to defeat Angron or hold the Eternity gate by himself. HOWEVER, It is pertinent to mention that had Gulliman reached Terra in place of Sanguinius, the Traitors would have been hard pressed to breach any further than Pluto, once they reached the Sol system. You have to remember, Horus was desperate to finish the seige before the Ultramarines arrived. And this was a force of Ultramarines reduced to half their legion strength by the surprise attack of Angron and Lorgar. And STILL Horus was shitting his pants. If Gulliman and Dorn had worked together to secure the Sol system, the traitors would have failed entirely.
@@Uzzgub what a singular wit you have. Disparaging my comment with a comment of your own. Despite all that you have done to me a find you a pitiable sentient. Perhaps we go to the comment section to find like minded individuals without the judgement of the superior moral higher-end. Perhaps don't have any friends left, since I have devoted my life to family, and I don't have any other outlet to get thoughts of others. I hope you sleep well...and God bless.
To be fair, a big part of that was Guilliman bringing all the resources of Imperium Secundus with him, not just legion assets. Half of the Imperium weighing down on you is a very, very serious threat!
"Sanguinius. What transpires on the surface of the Throneworld, I cannot say. What horrors you have endured, I cannot imagine. All I know for certain is this: I am mere days from the system’s edge, and within a solar week, I will be in the skies above Terra. With me I bring THE ENTIRE MIGHT OF THE THIRTEENTH LEGION, and I am not alone; word has reached me from Russ and the Lion, at the vanguard of the Sixth and the First. Our numbers are enough to CLEANSE THE HEAVENS, and TEAR THE WORLD from the Arch-traitor’s grip. HOLD ON TO HOPE, brother. That is all I ask. Can you give me that? Can you stand your ground for these last, ultimate hours? Those elusive twins, Victory and Vengeance, are coming. THIS WAR ENDS THE MOMENT I REACH TERRA. HOLD, in the name of the Emperor and the Imperium we have built together. I WILL BE WITH YOU, SOON."
@@RobouteGuilliman-M41 ru-vid.comBDeSEmb7stY He does a a lot of warhammer videos. If you like it watch the Warhammer Compilation videos where he does quotes and convos. I really like his Lorgar and Guilliman convo! Let me know what you think!
If you have Guilliman there they could have held out for anyway between another month to another year and this allows The Lion and The Angel to arrive and finish them off. I would say blowing up the home worlds even if it didn’t draw troops away it ties up the ones that are there and effectively stops them making more. So I like the lions plan and Sanguinius is a more offensive primark and so could have fought faster if not just as fast as Guilliman
Extra 200-250k astartes would have made a huge difference. Guilliman being a strategist to act as a sounding board for Dorne. Could have made Khan an attack force while the UM acted as a defensive force. Plus another Primarch which are basically WMDs would have helped. Might have had a few traitors think twice and leave early.
Damn Rho out here asking the questions gulliman asks himself. I think the legion and Gulliman’s tactical mind would’ve greatly helped the siege, but he wouldn’t have done much good in fighting horus. And it would’ve left the imperium absent of its (and hate me all u want) smartest primarch and bet option for a leader after the heresy ended.
In My Opinion The Reason The Emperor took The Gamble and Teleported To The Vengeful Spirit Was Because the Chaos Forces were literally bangin at the Eternity Gate. With the Ultramarines Increased Numbers There And Guilliman's Strategic Flair giving The Defenders of the Palace More Time. I Don't Think The Emperor Would Have Taken The Bait. Seeing It as A Sign That Help Was Arriving And Horus Was Desperate.
Your caps lock is broken. Eternity Gate has been slammed shut and the traitors don’t have anything big enough left to force it open. All the major traitor leaders are dead, banished or absent. Angron’s death robbed the WE of their wits and drove them to massacre their own allies, giving the BA trapped beyond the wall time to regroup and pick off the survivors. The traitors are begging for orbital reinforcements, which now can’t get through thanks to the WS. Dorn can hold his position for over a week; Guilliman will be there in less than a week.
If Guililliman would have been their, I really believe The Imperium would have won. I mean Rogal Dorn hold the Fort for 7 years before Sanguinius arrive and even after the battle touch ground in Terra it lasted 55 day at the Palace. Guililliman would have easily double that. The 2 most strategic and organize Primarch would have hold long enough for the rest to join.
G would have been a masive Boost to forces and moral and that could have actually slow things enough for the Lion or the Angel to come through the ruinstorm.
Having the ultra marines there would’ve probably got a victory rather then a pyric one with the additional numbers they would’ve held longer and bought enough time for reinforcements to get there and the angel could still have fought horus later and still died
I think the only "mistake" the brothers made was sending the Lion to destroy the traitor home worlds. Yes, it probably put a damper on their supply lines and some of the reinforcements, but the traitors just didn't care about their homes like the loyalists did so it didn't draw off any of the legions like they hoped it would. It wasn't a bad idea and definitely not their fault, they just didn't realize how far their brothers had fallen. If the Dark Angels had joined either the Blood Angels or the Ultramarines, the Siege of Terra would have gone VERY differently.
From what I remember reading the Emperor’s intervention was originally to have Magnus sit the Golden Throne as a primary-cum-battery for the Astronomicon and Webway. Thus, had both Guilliman and the Lion reached Terra alongside Sanguinius the outcome would have been very different as those theee, alongside adorn and the Khan would have held and eventually defeated the traitors. Horus might well have ordered a retreat, especially if word came that Russ was inbound as well which most definitely would have altered everything beyond recognition from the currently existing lore!
Best case scenario would've been all three brothers punching through. With Guilliman and Dorn's strategic prowess at the helm and the Lion and Sanguinius' martial might at the front. The traitors would've been hard pressed to make it to Terra.
If the Dark Angels AND the Ultramarines both broke through and reached Terra the siege would have been over immediately and the traitors would have routed no question
All htree?! We know when Horus heard they were coming that he gave up, definitely knew that he could not take all of them. The Lion and Angel on the ground. Lion would be just about as good for killing elite/primarchs as Sanguinius, just didn't have the wings to get around as easily. The Lion on the local battle field is one of the best commanders. Then G and Dorn at high level, yeah call that a day.
Guilliman survived a surprise attack by 2 legions and their demonic allies, and sent both of them running, including Demon Angron. I doubt that Sanguinius would’ve even needed to lift a finger if Guilliman and his legion beat Horus to Terra.
It would have come down to a fleet battle… something guilliman is especially good at. If Guilliman and his legion arrived instead of sangi and the blood angels the battle wouldn’t have made it to terra. I think people don’t realize this, but any loyal primearch was ready for death if that’s what was asked of them. They would fight to the bitter end and sacrifice everything they could just to buy as much time as possible. All guilliman would have to do is Delay the traitors in space long enough for his brothers to arrive. Which would no doubt seal the fate of the siege. The ultramarines marshaled the largest fleet even before the heresy… durning the siege of terra it’s likely that they outnumbered several legions combined in fleet size. And in terms of efficiency? At this point in the war most traitors fleets are in ruins… whatever survives is corrupted unto death. Fleets of the death guard, the emperor’s children and the world eaters are so corrupted that, most ships likely couldn’t even fire their guns. Most of their crew being dead, starving, dying of dyhadration or hiding. With Guilliman likely soon becoming aware of this, he would adapt and strike at the numerous weak points presented by his brothers. Weak points that they wouldn’t have had in the past… but with the lack of leadership, unbearable conditions present on traitor fleets being instant death to most mortals and 2 most tactically able legions and primearchs sandwiching the traitor fleet who is an utter hurry, it’s pretty clear who has the initiative. All guilliman has to do is play defensively. And strike hard and fast unexpectedly, which wouldn’t be difficult with his huge fleet. By the end, I suspect there won’t be an ultramarines legion left… and guilliman probably dead as well. But I also suspect that it would have done enough damage and delayed long enough that arriving legions would enjoy an easy clean up. You have to remember that guilliman would have to buy just a few days more then Sanguinius. We are talking less then a week in order for other legions to arrive. I think he could do a slightly better job then Sanguinius in leading his legion and imperial forces to buy those few elusive days. Most importantly keep guilliman leading this fleet. He would battle in space. If the war is won there… then the war is won on terra. However, if it’s lost? Terra still stands. I find this strictly logical and less risky. I would guess that best option would be to drop pod 50-70% of ultramarine astartes on terra. This would provide a relief force to the defenders on terra and buy time for the war in space. keep few cruisers “safely” stationed near terra. This cruisers would contain the remaining 10-20% of astartes that would be sent down to terra. merely keep a small army in reserve if a very important element of terra required immediate assistance. Such as… idk the orbital array? This 10-20% astartes would secure this important positions when needed and hold them as long as possible. The rest of the fleet would harbor some space marines to defend against boarding… and all this huge fleet has to do is pick of lone ships, Defend key elements and exploit the lack of command in the traitor fleet.
The Ultramarines did not have the biggest fleet, or even a big fleet. They also lost 80% of their fleet to the WB. The largest fleet by far was the Imperial Fists, who were also the only void war specialist legion. The WB fleet that decimated the UM was 1/15th the size of the IF fleet. The only ones that even compared were the Blood Angels and Dark Angels.
@@im2randomghgh ultramarines had the largest legion even at the end of HH mainly because they had alot to begin with and because Big G was very good at maintaining them. They are also jacks of all trade among legions. Something not ideal to Horus who is leading an army that is collapsing on itself on a rapid rate. Bobby G would also allow dorn to take more hands on approach as there would now be two exceeding minds of strategum. But the sheer support and supplies from Guilliman would make that gate stronger. It would buy much more solid time and allow the angel legions to arrive in time.
@@_NutcasE_ oh having Guilliman and the Ultramarines would for sure be helpful! Definitely not arguing against that, just had to correct some of the specific claims OP made. It's hard to say if they were still the largest Legion at that point, having lost so many marines against the WB, but they were definitely a very large one. While RG probably wouldn't be as helpful as the Angel, the big help would be handling the logistics side of things so Dorn can spend more time coordinating the military. At one point during the heresy Sanguinius thought that no primarch other than Dorn could have done both at once but it would still be a huge advantage not to have to :) As far as being versatile marines, I don't think that would be as helpful in this kind of super specialised battle but it certainly doesn't work against them either!
@@im2randomghgh well it comes down to guillimans legion already at its full might eclipsing the others. Even at half size it still qualifies larger than avarage legion. Not to mention that after initial shock Guilliman recovered very well. And it was WB turn to take losses. Then traitors were also having issues with remnants of Ravenguard that were giving them hell in supply front. Peter Turbo was traitors best asset. And Fulgrim almost eliminated it. And Horus was too prick to maintain it. The traitors were pretty beat by Imperium and infighting mixed with chaos. If Horuses prep to keep Ultramarines BA and DA away from terra hadnt been done this heresy would have been a joke.
@@_NutcasE_ of course! His Legion was quite larger, though likely not bigger than the DA at that point. At full strength the UM were about 250k and the DA (post Rangdan, previous they had more than 250k) had about 200k, but the UM lost 100k marines before they even recovered from the shock of betrayal, and 80% of their fleet. Still probably had 100-125k. The WB definitely got their teeth kicked in, for sure! Agreed, having two more legions and primarchs on Terra would have made a huge difference! Even though the WB would still be intact and many WE/NL would still be alive, the loyalists would benefit way more. Having numbers at least vaguely close to those of the traitors' and also the Defences built on Terra would be a gnarly advantage :)
Dorn's count of Guilliman fleet was 6-7k ships....enough to match the traitors (after the Solar War). There is no good reason to believe that so many enemy ships were lost in the Solar War, compared to friendly losses, that friendlies + Guilliman wouldn't have matched them at the start of the Solar War. Plus the Phalanx was never fully committed with a fleet. Without the huge numbers disparity, the traitors would have suffered disproportionately at the Mandeville point and the Warp Gates. They were only able to push through the prepared forces at those beach heads because of the huge number disparity in their favor. 6,000+ ships sitting at those locations would have destroyed whole battlegroups as they arrived. However, only the Angel removes Angron if for some reason the ground war still happens.
I'm reading Warhawk right now and without posting too many spoilers I think the inspiration and resolve Sanguinious instilled in the defenders was incredibly valuable in the face of the distress and depression evoked by the traitors. Especially in regards to the mortals. Sanguinious is also a superior warrior and his ability to fly about the battle encouraging everyone and countering enemy primarchs is something Robute could not do. Now the caveat to this is the question if the Ultramarines legion itself would have been more valuable than the blood angels. I think they would be.
While I agree angel did a number on morale..... but I would say huge Ultramarine fleet, supplies and sound strategum would have bolstered it even more. Big G aint taking no bloodthirsters, but his mind combined with dorn.... god daymn.
@theredditexperience1 to elaborate like an average redditor you make a nonissue because someone didnt like that people didnt do an 20 page essay on why Guilliman isnt as good of a fighter as Sanguinius. Guilliman fights unnamed random bloodthirsters vs Sanguinius who holds the eternity gate, faces Ka'bandha and right after Angron and comes on top. While Guilliman struggles against normal Lorgar and Normal Angron. Guilliman wouldnt have stood a chance defending eternity gate like Sanguinius did. He would have to rely on better strategy.
Well, knowing what we know now with the final Siege book being released having Guilliman during the Solar War and Siege would have saved Sanguinius' life at the very least. His death was prophesized but ultimately didn't fulfill much, no way Guilliman goes on to the Vengeful Spirit to duel Horus when it makes no tactical sense. Heck with Guilliman and the Ultramarines there I don't think Horus even gets far enough to lock Terra into the warp thus allowing the Blood Angels and the Dark Angels to follow up and encircle all the traitors. Even if Horus has the full power of the Pantheon he can't do much if the combined might of all the loyalist legions bomb the crap out of the Venegeful Spirit and chuck his bald butt into the void of space. The Lion nuking all the worlds that tied the traitor legions to the materium was integral to the defense of Terra so he was right where he needed to be with some of his best sons as the siege playing their part anyways. Guilliman's tactical genius in tandem with Rogal's would have been the death knell for the Heresy and would have sealed the deal in mankind's favor. Hope GW one day opts to do what if AUs just for fun. Seeing how this would play out would be epic as Guilliman is my guy. He wouldn't have let the traitors off easy and having the battle go well would have been just as big a moral boost as seeing the great angel on the battlefield.
Imagine, Guilliman and Dorn's strategic prowess combined with the warriors of Lion, Sanguinius, and Khan?! The Traitors would really need every grace they can get from the Chaos Gods to reach the Emperor.
I believe Guilliman and Dorn together at the very least would have held the line long enough for The Lion and The Angel to reach Terra. The traitors would have the atrocity of Istvan levied against them now as they would find themselves surrounded. The full might of the Ultramarines legion paired with Gulliman's strategic genius would have been an absolute game changer for the siege of Terra. A scenario where The Emperor, Malcador, and Sanguinius all live is possible with the Ultramarines there for the final battle.
Adding the tactical capabilities of either Roboute or the Lion to those of Dorn would have ruined Perturabo's plans. I could see victory being possible, and here's why...with even a few more days the Traitor Legions cohesion would have most likely collapsed. I mean look at how things were going by the fall of the Eternity Gate...the Emp Children had for the most part abandoned the Siege to pillage the rest of Terra, Perturabo and the Iron Warriors had mostly withdrawn because of Pert's feeling unappreciated and ignored, leaving only the SoH, World Eaters, and Word Bearers on the field in strength...with the WE degenerating into mindless berserkers, Horus being too busy fighting the Emperor psychically, Lorgar being banished, and Angron being blood blind it would have been easy for Roboute and Dorn to alternate in and out of tactical command confounding the lesser commanders of the Traitor forces by the sudden shifts in tactics
I think that if both Guilliman and The Lion had made it to Terra prior to the Siege of Terra, Horus’s forces would have not had the successes that it had. Of course, this is all in theory. But it’s a fun discussion none the less. What if The Lion and Sanguinius had been together and they found Horus prior to the Emperor? Soooooo many questions! It is what makes Warhammer 40,000 and it’s lore so much fun.
There's a few stages to this. (Includes spoilers up to end of Echoes of Eternity.) Firstly, Guilliman would have added to the defences in the Solar War more than Sanguinius BUT that still wouldn't have made a difference against the sorcery Horus used to get past the defences and into the inner system. Secondly, the extra 100k or so Marines would totally have helped - especially in the earlier stages of the siege - and Guilliman's ability as a strategist would have been useful. Perhaps they would have held the Lion's Gate spaceport longer and maybe not had to cede the Eternity Wall spaceport during the Saturnine gambit. However, especially in the closing stages where everyone is proper worn down, I don't think Guilliman matches Sanguinius for sheer spreading-hope-across-the-defences quality, and while he's an undoubted heavyweight, I'm not sure he beats Angron at the gate. I also get the feeling that Guilliman might not gel so well with the Khan in the defence - Sanguinius straight up saves the Khan's life at one point in a place Guilliman couldn't get to and Guilliman siding with Dorn when Sanguinius played the middleman probably leads to more friction amongst the defending primarchs. So, at best the addition of the Ultramarines is only going to hold off the siege maybe a bit longer - which is all important in the context of the siege, BUT... Thirdly - would the Blood Angels be able to break through the blockade to rush to the aid of the homeworld as quickly as the Ultramarines did? I don't think so - and that means the siege needs to last longer. The whole question is - can the relief forces get there before the Inner Palace falls - it's clear at the end of Echoes of Eternity that the shields of the Vengeful Spirit come down just as Guilliman's 'boys, we coming!' signal gets through. Horus needs the Emperor dead before they arrive. It's also clear that Horus/Chaos are very specifically scared of Sanguinius - from the effort to turn/kill him at the start, to block/dissuade specifically him from Terra and Horus getting increasingly strident at Angron to 'kill him for me...' so the urgency of the siege/holding action may be completely different may be different if Sanguinius is already there or the one breaking through. Yes, Guilliman can prolong the siege, BUT perhaps not as long as the extra time the blood angels would need to break through - and if they're not coming by the time the Ultimate Gate falls, the Emperor dies under Horus's claws in the throne room. Plus, I think Guilliman dies against Angron at the gate, so he's not there when the sanctum falls and even if they're close enough to force the Vengeful Spirit shields down, 'come get some, father' gambit then the Emperor is only accompanied by Dorn and dies, or if Roboute survives Angron, he gets tabled by Horus and the Emperor dies. So even if the extra sirgetime vs blood angels breakthroiugh time is a zero sum, if it's Guilliman on the Spirit instead of Sanguinius, it's a Chaos win. So IMHO, Guilliman on Terra in place of Sanguinius prolongs the siege but still leads to the Emperor's death and an empowered Horus being able to turn and face the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves. His call to let the Angel go saved the Imperium. FWIW, I think the result is similar if it's the Lion that goes - except he is even more frictious with Dorn & the Khan, BUT probably beats Angron at the gate. The possibility of division within his legion showing itself at a crucial moment is also a key 'what if.'
I would say that guillman would have led the terran forces to victory. He focusses more on logistics and with his additional manpower and ships he would have been able to bleed the heretics out - especially when a master defender is on your side. Logistics are ususually undervalued but is the most important factor in winning a war.
If you trade the Angel with Guilliman, then you could have Constantin Valdor taking on Horus. And with Guilliman is the Watch pack or packs at that point which would add at least some Space Wolves there. And its would be cool to see Valdor Vs Horus.
@@macshadow1150 and what are you supporting that with? Valdor has only ever fought Alpharius, and Alpharius was not even fully armed. Jet the Primarch (fare from the strongest in melee) believed himself Valdor's better. Now you say he could beat Mega Chaos Horus? Come on.
@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen Actually Alpharius thought to himself that he *might* have matched Valdor if he had armour. Valdor also said he was better and Alpharius admitted Valdor was incapable of arrogance.
I would like to see a ‘red con’ of the the Ultramarine Legion to be 1 million Space Marines and 10 billion imperial guard and Mechanicum forces from the 500 worlds of Ultramar
Guilliman would seal himself in an office and take control of the logistics of everything so everyone would get their rations, ammo, equipment on time... while his sons had the numbers to reinforce the defenders.
The problem Guiliman would have had is would the whole legion have made it through. Other than the White Scars and the Raven Guard none of the legions are as fast as the Blood Angels and for Shock Assault like a brake through maybe the World Eaters or Wolves but again other than them are any of the other Legions able to match the Blood Angles. Would the Ultramarines have what it takes to blitz the blocking force and bludgen there way through or would they get bogged down and been forced to leave large chunks of the legion strung out in running spcae battles to make it to Terra in time?
If G man shows with all his legion, the traitors are stopped before reaching Terra. But for what they had as an option, the Angel was the right choice. No guarantee the majority of the legion would have made it. If the option was small force with the Angel or small force with G Man, there isn’t really a choice there. The Angel is such a martial force in his own right but more importantly an absolute anchor and inspiration to all.
Rho, could you do another video on the return of the Lion? There’s a blurred picture of a new Azrael model in one of the Arks of Omen books, surrounded by Deathwing. There are also black-clad Heretic Astartes who could be Fallen. The caption is “The Rock Besieged” which sounds indicative of the Dark Angels.
Honestly, the main thing that would have changed things for the better was the Lion and Guilliman staying united to break through. If they break the blockade, then there's no need to raid the Vengeful Spirit at all. The chief contribution it seems it makes is Sanguinius holding the Eternity Gate. Unless it really shows he makes a contribution to Emps defeating Horus, the Imperium would have 100% fair better if Sanguinius had survived.
The size of his legion alone should be able to stall the traitors from getting as far as they did in the timeframe and at that point I could see sanguinous arriving just before the fall of the eternity gate
my biggest concern would be; who could deal with chaos great champions, like ka'bandha (though maybe not him as he was there to fight the blood angles, but someone just as strong) and Angron, if not for Sanguinius. i don't think anyone else could have stood before them. Lion may have had some hectic dark age tech that could have helped, but i doubt even 100'000 Astartes could have stopped them.
I would choose Iron fist, Ultramarine, and Space wolves. I would choose the other Dauntless Few as Guilliman himself said the 6th, 7th, 9th, and 10th synergies well with his 13th.
Guilliman himself would not be an equal replacement for Sanguinius. The Angel was counted among the best warriors of the Primarchs - perhaps even the best of them all. More importantly, he was a symbol of hope and inspiration. We saw him routinely tour the lines to lift the spirits of the Imperial Guard, against the wishes of Dorn. Guilliman is not of this design. He is a formidable warrior and still a Primarch, but he could not do what Sanguinius did. He could not hold the Eternity Gate. He could not solo Warhound Titans. He could not repel Angron. Guilliman's advantage would be more abstract. He was doubtlessly one of the best campaigners of his brothers. The Lion may be superior given his handling of the Night Lords, but Guilliman was at least on his level. More importantly, he was superior to both Sanguinius and Dorn and his style synergizes with the Pretorian far better. To what extent could this edge impact the events on Mars and the desperate rush to secure supplies and evacuate weapons, or allow Dorn to narrow his attention to the inner planets whilst The Lord of Ultramar conducts that Solar War. Finally, what happens between Guilliman and Alpharius? Guilliman loves to talk and if the Alpha Legion truly were loyalists, this may be a pivotal moment that would change everything in the siege and in 40k. The XIII Legion was larger, as was his fleet. An extra 80,000 - 120,000 legionaries are not to be dismissed and would carry serious consequences for the traitors and strategic advantages for the loyalists. It would delay the traitors in the system and inflict more damage upon it. The vital question is this - could that additional level of endurance delay the traitors long enough for The Dark Angels and Blood Angels to reach Terra and save the Emperor? If that answer is yes, then no level of Sanguinius being amazing would come close to matching that. That said, the consequences to 40k would be enormous. Forget the Codex Astartes because the Ultramarines would be, by virtue of having fought, turned into one of the smaller legions and lacked the ability to have a serious voice.
I don't think we can trust with any accuracy the exact numbers that the space marine legions had, from the standpoint of the novels. The casualties they all absorbed during the 7 years of the herasy are ridiculous as Sevatar said " the wrong side of hilarious". The smallest legion would have to have 250k with 10s of thousands of scouts and reserves. Being familiar with fighting and war on a small scale, the amount of resources, both people and materials we used to take a small nation..is nothing compared to a planetary scale and so on
I would love to hear your opinion on what if The Emperor had appointed Perturabo to be the pretorian of terra. How would his defence been different than those of Dorn? And would the seige have gone much different with Perturabo in charge of the defenses or would the differences have been minute and the end result would have been the same.
Perturabo would have formed a much greater defense than Dorn did. Perturabo would have had absolutely no care at all for the palace. Dorn took care to try to save the palace before the Solar War but Perturabo would have stripped it to the bones.
If Pertrurabo was a faithful and loyal son of the Emperor. I imagine that everytime the Iron Warriors failed to hold the line, decimation of the legion. When the loyalist humans retreat. Decimation.
@@iamcaesar6741 Why? He would be appointed, and as such, really appreciated by the Emperor if so. The main reason for his betrayel was that he feel ommited
As you state the increased number of astartes would have helped with the defence, however the true value Guiliman had was in the fact he already controlled an empire, which included ships, armaments and soldiers. Against the traitor legions Guiliman would likely have kept the bulk of his sons for special missions over going head to head with his brothers.
If Sanguinius was not there Leman would have stayed and taken his place. The only reason the wolf King left was because Sanguinius the only primarch besides Kurze he wasn’t sure he could beat in a fight was present. If The Angel, the Lion and Bobby G all combined there power they woulda broke the blockade a lot faster than just the ultramarines did and showed up with three full legions and Horus would have been doomed. Leman could have easily taken Sanguiniu’s place and gotten his long awaited rematch with Angron and still have gone to the vengeful spirit with the spear of Russ and severely wounded Horus as he did in cannon making him even more vulnerable for the emperor to easily win without getting so devastated himself and can u imagine if Russ died and all the space wolfs suddenly went Wulfen? Not taking away from the blood angels death company’s black rage but a legion of feral Wulfen would kill every traitor in record time that would make the Angels blanche.
Now do one where the Lion and the Dark Angels are on Terra, wonder how that would have changed things? The DAs have that forbidden Dark Age of Technology tech and the Lion is an absolute juggernaut.
To be fair the really spicy DAoT tech was always kept by the Custodians, and they decided not to open the Shadow Vaults and use it because it would do more harm than good. Also to be fair, 20k DA did make it to Terra. Given that Luthor had 30k on Caliban, that's about 1/6th of the Legion.
I think the big problem with the Ultramarines is contained in the words “slip through”. Getting a force twice the size through would have been difficult. Further, Sanguinius had a better chance against Angron, I am not sure Guilliman could win that one. Further, Sanguinius is more charismatic and better situated to raise the defender’s flagging morale. Horus is shown to have fear of Sanguinius, to the point Horus was pawning off the job of removing him to Angron. In addition to that, Horus is also distressed by Guilliman doing what Guilliman does best: strategically crippling his enemy. Horus is under pressure from the Ultramarines who are simply methodically destroying Horus’s rear guard units, forcing Horus to accelerate his attack.
There are some big issues as only a Primarch can beat another Primarch as shown by Sigismund getting slapped down by Fulgrim with ease. So no amount of troops will stop Angron, Mortarian, Fulgrim and such. As far as the talk of numbers the Ultramarines had lost half after betrayal and war with the Word Bearers and World Eaters. Also the fleet had lost so much. Now his fleet was bigger then the Blood Angels and had more troops but not a big difference like people think as the Blood Angels had the largest fleet size not the most powerful but largest in numbers, then they also have over 125k Astartes and had one war on Signus which was far less damaging then the Ultramarines so the numbers would be 30-40k difference not 100k. Remember there was a small gap also and Sanguinius used his foresight to make it through. Most likely his fleet would be destroyed or lost in the warp storm if Guilliman made the attempt. Also the Lion was sent to the far end of the Galaxy and then Horus tried to have the Nightlords slow them down and had a true worry about the Lion. Guilliman he tried to cripple and then left him to be in his empire and if it was not for the Necron tech pulling people too Guilliman he would not have been pushed from Ultramar by Sanguinius and the Lion to reach Terra.
Don't forget, though, that the size of the Ultramarine legion is not unconditionally positive. With potentially twice as many marines, they would need over that much more supplies and infrastructure. The siege would last years anyway, after all. Now I don't know how well the palace/Sol was stocked, nor how much would Guilliman be able to shrink the amounts needed by his divine-ultra-maxed micro... But bigger is not always better, especially when it comes to military forces holding choke points. There, one needs quality soldiers, rather than quantity. The bloodguys beat the ultraboys pound for pound in martial might. So, it comes down to how much supplies/resources were/would have been available. Less-Sangy is the better choice. More-gg, big G.
Bobby G and the U-boys going through versus The Angel and Blood would mean more troops coming off the rear guard to attack Terra. Which would offset the gains of having the Ultramarines. But the loss of Sanguinius would not be offset by Bobby G. I still think the Lion attacking home worlds was a waste. Imp Fists are better fleet tacticians (again U-boys have numbers). You had Polux take on and defeat Perty in a fair fight. Had that battle finished versus the Imp Fists being called back to Terra, the Heresy would be a much different story. There's a what if for you Rho. What if the message from Rogal did not reach the Retribution Fleet and the battle at Phall was finished without an IF withdrawl. What if Perty's fleet and the Iron Warriors were defeated by Imp Fists in the battle of Phall.
Behind the scenes, Guilliman would be butting heads with Dorn, wanting things done his way. Its doubtful he could beat any of his brothers at the siege. He had to be dragged away in his fight with Angron before he got stomped. Fulgrim might actually do what he was told to get a piece of Gman. Its also doubtful a extra 50 to 70k extra marines would make much of a difference. Maybe a extra week or month.
He would not, becasue he is not a warrior. He is a strategist, one of the best in the galaxy. In the siege of Terra Perturabo proven to be better than Dorn and was slowly but surely cracking his defenses. But he could have a real problem if all those cracks were to be filled with Ultramarines. There would no point of Angron or Greater demons of they were not allowed to melee XD
@@macshadow1150 Perturabo proved to be much worse than Dorn at Terra. His plans for the space battle only succeeded because of Magnus and Samus, he realised he couldn't take the Lion's Gate space port from Dorn so he made his marines try and they only succeeded when a data daemon got loose, the attack by the legio mortis only succeeded because of daemon hacks, and then he got owned at Saturnine. Zardu Layak, Magnus, daemons, and having a vastly larger army were how the traitors got anything done during the siege, not clever tactics.
Why did Horus lower the shields of the Vengeful Spirit? To entice the Emperor into a fight. But why did he need to? Because he ran out of time. Guilliman had arrived, or his arrival was so imminent that Horus knew he had no time left and he risked everything on one last gamble. And so did the Emperor. The fate of the universe hung in the balance and neither the visions of Sanguinius, the Emperor or Curze, nor even the chaos gods themselves knew what would happen next. Except that the unstoppable force of Guilliman and the Ultramarines will arrive
I love these videos. Is there a accounting of after malcador revives and takes the throne to relieve the emperor to fight horus? Also post salamanders vs thousand sons primary fight where he finally breaks and becomes a demon?
Send the Lion and Sanguinius. Let Guilliman take the temporary L. Between those two, 2v1 Horus, Ultramar burns, but the Emperor lives. Like you said, Guilliman basically had two legions. He would face two legions. Horus would face two primarchs. Not until the Plague Wars (with the deathguard being the largest traitor legion) was Ultramar really in danger.
A large number of comments are disregarding how adept Sanguinius was as a general and commander. Yes he was a warrior without peer, but by the time of the heresy, his legion was on the ascendant, their number of conquests and victories rising to be spoken of in the same sentence as Horus, Russ and the Lion. But he still lets Rogal continue to command the sphere, because against Perturabo, he has the best chance. Guilliman is an incredible general, but having two men in the top seat isn’t possible, and Guilliman doesn’t bring the level of inspiration and combat prowess the Angel does. Sanguinius’ legion is also still huge, with just under 100,000 marines at the time they reach Terra. Yes Guilliman had more, but they were badly mauled from Calth, and though expert warriors, when it comes to close quarters fighting on the wall and in the ruins of the palace, I’d favour a blood Angel over a son of Macragge any day. I’d also contend that numbers weren’t a huge issue during the siege for the loyalists - Horus had near limitless forces, demons, Titans and baseline humans, they were going to tear down the walls eventually, and the inspiring presence of the Angel and his legion - one of the most beloved by the common people of the Imperium - cannot be understated
I just commented on the same thing citing that Russ only left cause The Angel was present. If The three brothers stuck together to punch thru the blockade Russ stays on Terra, gets his rematch with Angron and still uses the Spear of Russ on Horus wounding him so bad the emperor easily overpowers him and doesn’t get so hurt as needs to be interred into the Golden Throne or The Lion, Pappa Smurf and the Angel get there and record time and the fight on the Vengeful Spirit never takes place or the Emperor rolls into that fight with 5 Primarchs instead of 2.
My opinion, Ultramarines, dark angels, and imperial fists would be a killer line up for the defense of terra. Traitors would either have a hell of a harder time breaking through or just get straight up murdered. Then again just my opinion of the battle on the ground the final duel would be a different story with the replaced primarchs
All of those three primarchs are amongst the most pragmatic of all primarchs. Even Lionel learned to fight dirty from his experience with Konrad. If push comes to shove they'll just throw warheads at the traitor forces including their primarchs to wear them down before getting into the melee.
The emperor would have won as Guilliman had more spacemarines then most of the legions combined doubled with his tactical way of warfare and his practical approaches the war would have been an overwhelming victory for the emperium. Hence why Horus sent him away and attacked while he was gone, and hence why Horus dropped his shields in a desperate attempt to kill the emperor was because Guilliman was only a few days away from Terra. So long story short emperium woulda stomped chaos.
Khan and Angel win battles.... Dorn and Guilliman win wars. I think it would actually change the outcome. Guillimans mind and the massive Ultramarine legion would have bought enough time for DA and BA to arrive. Dorn in charge of defense of terra would take on bloodthirster instead while Guilliman takes over the war room. Not to downplay Sanguinius but since Dorn is really good at duels. Forcing Horus to retreat or be sandviched. Eitherway the ending would be grimbright. Because with Big E still uninjured, traitors self defused, loyalist primarchs still at large, Horuses fear and reason to duel Big E would be true. He could not replicate this offense ever again and now it would be his turn to run. And with Perturabo gone, other brothers lost. He would end up worse than abaddon if he would manage to run to eye of terror.
If they had sent Guilliman, I think Hours would have thrown Angron at him immediately. Delete Guilliman as soon as possible and probably bombard his flet with every thing he had before the blueboys could turn the tide.
The real question is whether had the three of them left immediately upon converging in Ultramar.....and went around the barrier at the heart of the ruin storm and that the barrier wasn't as large if they had tried months earlier using either Pharos (as a projected beacon, which they knew how to do at the start) or the Lion's boxed demon brain) Ultimately......the whole thing was written to create the desired outcome and any errors in ridiculous warp bone barrier story can be fixed, but that doesn't mean the desired outcome wasn't.....the result of an error in reasoning and recon.
Is those three beasts had arrived at Terra together with Rogal in charge of the defense of Terra, the Lion in charge of the fleet, and Guiliman in charge of the logistics, the Emps would still be walking
I figure that the Ultramarines fleet would have been needed to hold off the traitors. So if they had left the others to hold that line, first, the traitors may not have allowed them to slip by, and second, if they did, the remaining fleet would have been too weak to fight.
Even without the Ultramarines on Terra the had a massive effect on the outcome of the Siege, Horus and the traitor forces faced extra pressure to get the siege over and win as with the Ultramarines (and the Dark Angels) meant if they succeed when the Ultramarines get there Horus's defences would have been in place.
I think guilliman is strong with his army. 1v1 and he's a total wreck,atleast if he goes up against a primarch,I mean he couldn't even take on a giant one eyed chicken, he'd be dead if it weren't for those two sexy mutes
Overall I'd probably say Sanguinius was better then Guilliman (although both bring pros and cons with them) considering the one man army the Angel was over the cause of the siege and the sheer inspiration he brought to the defenders. He isn't the stragetist that is Roboute, but he is unquestionably the best frontline warrior among the primarchs. Legionwise... yeah, the Ultramarines sheer size would be a massive boon and probably help the defenders just as much, if not more, then the black rage of the angels in the final hours.
Hmm maybe the fight on Horus’s ship would’ve gone better since Guillermin would’ve been slower getting Horus than sanguinius did. That means that the emperor and either rogal or Guillerman would’ve gotten there at the same time and double team Horus.
Guilliman and the Lion should've been on board the same ship as the Angel, and all 3 would've made it to Terra, and then they would've won(without the emps dying)
@@Besitzt11 Ture, but not everyone knew about that, especially Guilluman other brothers. Not to mention in the 42nd many people may question Guilluman loyalty to his father/emperor.
@@macshadow1150 Anyone that maybe on Guilluman side is Dante chapter Master of the blood Angels, Ultramarine, Ultramarine chapters and The Lion, he may show up later on as well.
Would’ve been much harder fight for Horus and the dark angels would’ve arrived before Horus had a chance to win. An being sowed down so much, the warp powers wouldn’t have been able to spread so much.
Guilliman would probably not have been able to get to Terra at the speed Sanguinius did. The Blood Angel's are a smaller, faster force. Dorn might well have fallen by the time Guilliman arrived. If Guilliman gets to Terra in a similar time frame though, he and his legion change the very nature of the conflict in favor of the defenders. Guilliman would be able to contest space for much longer and deal far more punishment, giving Sol more time to muster troops and stockpile munitions and Dorn even more time to fortify. Sol winning outright by itself is no longer a pipe dream, and Horus is still pressed for time because of the other incoming loyalist legions at his back. Guilliman buys more time and forces Horus to either retreat or sacrifice his forces even more unwisely trying to storm more formidable defenses. So long as Guilliman doesn't go out himself to try and duel a Daemon Prince, as he is sometimes prone to do, thr defenders are in a good spot.
Visions are fickle and unreliable. I believe Guilliman working with Dorn could stop traitors from even reaching Terra itself. He was a master strategist at the helm of Imperiums largest fighting force. While he doesn't have Saguinus martial prowess he is no pushover and what he lacks in strenght he more than makes up for in guile. Angron is a force of nature, but Perturabo bested him. Guilliman could do the same.
Some estimates of the Ultramarines XIII Legion place it between 250,000 to 300,000 Dark Angels I legion 200,000 (after the Rangdan Xenocides and 60000 Astartes lost) They number more than any other. 1/2 a million Astartes between them. Imagine they had arrived. It would have been retribution indeed on the Traitors
Two things, one we have not idea if Guillamen could beat horus or not. We can speculate but that is it. Second I dont think Guillamen did anything wrong and more over he did the best he could in the situation
If Gulliman and his legion were at the siege. The siege would have been very different as Gulliman's XIII Legion mustered together numbered in the hundreds of thousands and larger than any other Him and Sanguinus and Rogal Dorn and the Khan fighting together with Lion El Johnson on the way The balance of power would have shifted. Horus knew this. That is why he lowered the Vengeful Spirit shields. He knew the XIII was going to imminently arrive and shift the balance of power. This meant that the likes of the Phalanx and the Loyalist fleet to bring firepower to bear on the traitor fleet. The Siege would have turned into the anvil and hammer of the Loyalists smashing the hated Traitors If Lion also arrived and the I Legion Dark Angels was also a huge Legion in its own right it would have been playback time for the Drop Site Massacre on the cursed Traitors! If only the Loyal sons had been together. The Emperor would not of stood alone against Horus. Neither would of Sanguinus
The lion could have made it to terra with the angel instead he went into vengeance mode destroying traitor planets that most of the traitor legions couldn’t have cared less about. That was a bad decision.
Robute VS DEMON Angron. Remember he was fine fighting Angron AND Lorgar to a standstill before Lorgar decided to forcefully evolve Angron into Demon Angron by using a Khorne stone on him.
I love how everyone here is saying guilliman and his legion and then just sanguinius alone lol… the BA’s played a massive part too. I’m sorry but the BA’s and IF’s fought like no other together, Do I see the ultramarines and the IF’s fighting the same way… no. I think If guilliman was there from the start there would have been no chance for Horus it would have planned out differently. Now if guilliman came the same time as sanguinius I don’t know…But imagine being outside of terra as a traitor primarch and knowing you have to fight the angel… then replace sanguinius with guilliman… I think the ultramarines and there numbers are a threat much more than guilliman.
