What if Jason Todd Lived? [Batman & Red Hood] 

Dude.. One guy changed DC comics forever with just his phone.

He'd probably still be pissed at batman because he didnt kill Joker

That thumbnail is disturbing. Batman looks as if he's estatic holding that dead kid.

Thanks for including our response! Great video, it’s a pretty fun topic to think about.

IMO, Jason's death set in motion a LOT of good comic storylines and the implementation of Tim Drake, whom Batman said could become a far greater detective than him. While Jason living wouldn't have been a bad move, as another comic reviewer said: a lot more stories were written with him dead than alive. It also showed that being a sidekick wasn't all fun and games, not counting Roy Harper's drug use back in the 70s. Ultimately, whether it was true or not that the Jason dies calls were rigged, it has served the DC as a whole, though the repeated Revolving Door Policy regarding death is not something I'm a fan of as it removes the belief that death is permanent in comics.

Surprised Batman didn't try to build a time machine and cause Flashpoint himself just to save Jason. :P

How about "What if Batman sacrificed himself to save Jason?" I always thought it was a really fascinating scenario to explore.

Given the tittle of the story, "A Death in the Family", I think kirbystarwarrior is right in that Batman would fire Jason as Robin to protect him, or he would be permanently disabled like Barbara was later.

I heard the idea was jason would recover quit being robin and leave. Which means killing him made him more prominant.

Have you considered making this "What if?" on comic book history a series? There's a genre of fiction called, "alternate history" that explores paths not taken (Amazon's "Man in the High Castle" is an example of this, though Germany winning WWII is cliche at this point.) It would be interesting to speculate on how comic book history would be different. Two such points of divergence could be: -Marvel going bankrupt in in the mid-1970s, as what probably would have happened if Marvel didn't license Star Wars. It wasn't until Jim Shooter that Marvel's fortunes improved and speaking of which... -Shooter himself revealed on his blog that there was a brief window where Warner briefly considered licensing its DC characters to Marvel (they would still have the rights, Marvel would be publishing the comics) in 1984. Imagine how the industry would be different then.

There is a lot of behind the scenes stuff you didn't touch on, and would have influenced the outcome. Jim Starlin took the writing reigns of 'Batman' with issue 414. "A Death in the Family" began with issue 426, a year later. Starlin had been vocal about his hatred of the sidekick concept and of Robin. And he spent 12 issues making Jason Todd an unlikable little asshole. He was, as the saying goes, priming the pump. And notably, he stayed on "Batman" exactly one issue after "A Death in the Family" ended. Mission apparently accomplished. So... If Jason had lived, since Starlin wrote "both versions", Jason would have been hospitalised and crippled. Starlin had a desired outcome: getting there to be a Batman without a Robin. If Jason lived, he would have had to retire, the goal was for Batman to be Robin-less. Now, this was less than a year after "The Killing Joke" came out, so we could depend on Starlin having Batman saying "no more sidekicks" with both Barbara and Jason crippled. I suspect much of the story of Batman chasing down the Joker after the explosion would be unchanged, except for Jason's fate. Jason't fate requires a few extra pages. They wouldn't change the whole story. But, Tim Drake was introduced in "Batman" #436. It was only 9 issues since #427 where Jason died! DC started creating a new Robin basically before Jason's fictional body could have gotten metaphorically cold. You see, there was a factor that Starlin, and the fans hadn't counted on: DC Merchandising. The whole reason Jason Todd existed was because DC wanted the "Titans" to have Dick Grayson and "Batman" to have Robin. The Titans were a hot property, and using "the Protector" in the Titans merchandising wasn't fitting the bill. And "Robin" has been the back half of "Batman and" for a long time. The Batman mechandise licensce included Robin. And Robin had to look a certain way. When Tim Drake got his second costume, the merchandise followed suit, but the change wasn't that big. I suspect that Starlin didn't leave "Batman" because he accomplished his mission. I suspect he left because DC told him "so you killed Jason Todd, start working on creating a new Robin." The Save-Jason/Kill-Jason phone lines were a great stunt. It brought that much more attention to DC, and the coming of Jason Todd. And it made DC sit-up and pay attention to what Batman really needed in a Robin. Pre-Crisis Jason Todd was a Dick Grayson clone. Post-Crisis Jason Todd was a thug who grew into an asshole. Tim Drake was made to be distinct from Dick AND Jason. There's no reason to think Jason survivng as a cripple would have changed any of this. Jason would no longer be Robin, and DC Merchandising would still insist on there being an active Robin who looks like what the general populace thought Robin looked like. We still would have gotten Tim Drake. We would not have gotten Carey Kelly as Robin. She wouldn't work for merchandising. Even today, 30 years later there's still a corporate belief that boys don't buy toys of girl characters. End of the day, DC Merchandising is where the money is made. That's where decisions happen.

If Jason Todd had lived and survived to never become Red Hood, the changes would be larger than the comics themselves. See, Jason dying wasn't just the catalyst for Robin, it was Batman too, and how we see him in the popular culture. "The Dark Knight Returns" and "Watchmen" did change the view of comics as a whole, but "A Death In The Family" changed Batman and others throughout the main continuity DC universe (other than Crisis OIE). That darker tone completely overpowered and changed the Adam West like goofy Batman we all know of. Hell, did you know in the following issue after Jason died, Joker became the Iranian Ambassador and had diplomatic immunity so Batman couldn't touch him after he had killed Jason. He then dies in a helicopter crash while Superman was on the scene. Because of this, years later that story was changed and toned down (removing Jason's mother, Superman and the Iranian government) to be a deconstruction of why kids shouldn't be superheroes, with Jason just getting kidnapped and killed on duty. If Jason didn't die, who knows, we'd probably still be humming the Adam West tunes. There'd probably be no "89 Batman" or "The Dark Knight", and the industry would move forward without Batman being the biggest thing on the planet. So is it good that he died? Yes. But I think there needs to be another tone down in the right places. Particularly with how his death is presented in the medium and in what it is in the DCEU. I love Robin as a character, and I love Batman being dark and interesting, but the yin and yang part of it is what made Batman and Robin spectacular. Like Sherlock and Watson, two sides to coin, but one side can be solo every now and then, not all the time. And I don't wanna see a kid get tortured and gang raped in prison by clowns or an R rated Batman movie. Theres nothing edgy or good about that. It's a good dark and cathedral film because it's a good film first and understands that Jason Todd dying and what that means for him and Batman, is more than just Shock Value. At least thats what I would hope a good Batman and Robin film to be not directed by Joel Schumacher.

I wish DC would have released the version of the comic where Jason lives many years after the original where he died so we could have found out

I ADORED Jason as Robin. He was soooooo very different to what we had seen before from sidekicks and I found his anger at the world relatable I do think that if he survived they would have had him learn from the experience and become more of a regular sidekick (which would have made him boring) Without his death we wouldn’t have gotten Tim (who was created to be be everything Jason wasn’t due to the perceived unpopularity of Jason). However I have no idea why the hell people think that Jason would have become Batman long term or that he would still become an anti-hero. DC would definitely have changed Jason after his near death. I loved that he was brought back (although the Under The Red Hood film has the best backstory of Ras wanting to make amends with Bruce and by bringing him back. It adds a lot of depth to Ras which some writers seem to miss) However I hate the Red Hood name and don’t think Jason would use it. Jason should have been Hush (as Tommy’s backstory is one of the worst in serious villain history). Jason should have kept his Hugh look and either kept that name or been called Red X And they should have kept that Batman killed a villain (although letting the KGBeast starve to death in the sewers is too far)

We would never get Tim Drake and Red Hood!Jason Todd and that's why I don't think that killing him was the wrong choice (but still very cruel)

Shoutout to Watchtower Database for reading my mind. The potential impact of Jason surviving into the era of BTAS is a subject I feel would have radically altered the DCAU and superhero material on TV in general. For instance, would the events of "Robin's Reckoning" have played out differently? I'm picturing essentially Tim Drake's origin episode (which, for his animated incarnation at least, was deliberately cribbed from Jason's post-Crisis origin, go figure), but with Dick hovering in the background slowly growing jealous over this new kid Bruce is doting on and seemingly grooming to be a "backup" Robin. (I assume Bruce would bring Jason into the fold because he sees a bit of himself in the young orphan, perhaps a glimpse of what he might have become had he not dedicated himself to the crusade against crime.) Dick tries to act more impressively in the Robin role, but keeps getting upstaged by the somewhat more competent Jason. In an inverse of their personalities in the comics, Dick flies off the deep end and becomes an insanely brutal Nightwing (well, as brutal as Fox standards and practices would allow, maybe not bones crunching, but certainly indications that this episode's bad guys won't survive the night), and Jason tries to make him see he's going about this all wrong. Ultimately, Dick leaves the family and begins life as a reckless vigilante, and Jason reluctantly takes up the Robin mantle and struggles to reconcile the Bat-Legacy with his own troubled upbringing. Somewhere down the line, I expect a Dick/Jason showdown that takes three or four episodes to resolve, something somewhat like "Return of the Joker" or the Robin/Slade relationship on "Teen Titans" in tone.

Would’ve been nice to hear Drake’s quick thoughts on each of the responses on Twitter instead of just reading them.

DC make a what if story if this happening

in the death in the family interactive movie we got something like this showing jason becoming this kinda hush persona killing criminals after just seeing his hatred for bruce grow while he was in a hospital bed

As always, wonderful video!

3:47 “really an ASSet” I see you Drake… I see you. ;D

I liked this format, don’t worry, you’re great! Great thought exercise.

Just imagine hating someone so much you spend 160 just to see them killed.

I’m going to find the hidden Booster Gold Edit: I can’t find it, anyone have any better luck?

Would batman have been more or less violent?

Good video man

If Todd didn't die we wouldn't have the red hood we know today

personally i thought jason todd death was fine because we got tim drake robin out of his death which was really awesome because tim drake was my robin i grew up with and was way more interesting then jason todd robin but that's just my opinion

then he would've become something like oracle and Carrie Kelly was the next ROBIN

I remember seeing a post a while back saying that had Jason lived he would have been the most functional child out of all of them and would have finished school. I'm not sure about more functional, but I do think he would have gotten a degree. Maybe he'd be an English teacher by day and vigilante by night. I feel like Tim would still become Robin next, maybe Bruce not avenging Jason would strain their relationship, or being Robin wouldn't be great for him emotionally. Or maybe he'd just grow out of it. But I think if he quit, it would have a negative effect on Bruce and he'd slowly become more violent with nobody to pull him back (to add to the angst, let's say he's still on bad terms with Dick). Tim would pop up and become Robin, there would be side-eyeing from Jason and ideally, character development for all. That all being said, I'm chill with him dying in the main universe. I'm always down for character development and that panel of Jason digging himself out of his grave is like an emotional sucker punch so hell yeah.

I came back to this video after watching the new Batman death in the family trailer, and I must say, I think it’s ironic that back in the day people hated jason and voted for him to die, come October, everyone loves Jason (or they’ve seen under the red hood and they don’t want to just watch that movie again no change, though it would be cool if that was possible if you made the right decisions) and they’ll pick to have him survive

awesome video buddy !!! new sub here keep up the good work JB

I have one arc in mind where Jason surviving might have negligibly affected the future timeline. Jason would definitely need a while for recuperation, considering the seriousness of his injuries. Maybe even be in a coma for a while! Meanwhile, Batman would double his work rate and grow even more secluded. In the meantime, Tim Drake can be introduced as someone keeping tabs on Batman's change in recent activities. Possibly more violent and active than usual. Tim would confront Batman, revealing that he knows his secret identity, as well as why his modus operandi might have changed. He would want to be Robin, like in actual continuity. But would get rejected, time and time again. So much so that he begins to shadow Batman and fight crime by himself, irking Batman in the process. Meanwhile, Jason gets better, still haunted by the events as well as feeling abandoned by Bruce, due to his continued absence. This might negativity stir his psyche, adding to the fact that Batman decides to work alone and the joker still causing mayhem in Gotham. He would eventually cut ties with Batman altogether and would don the red hood mantle after going off radar for a while. Then, when his activities finally causes some concern to Batman, he would want to face him, unwillingly teaming up with Tim in the process, who would by this time, be already hot on the heels of Jason. Then the showdown! Something like this...

never really thought about it so I'm not personally sure but it was fun to hear your and everybody else's speculation

I think Jason would recover and become super vengeful and try to kill the Joker. Either he kills Joker and leaves Batman or Batman stops Jason, they have a fight and Jason leaves becoming his own vigilante and probably leaving Gotham.

if Jason lived, Tim would have no reason to reveal to Batman & Nightwing that he knows there identities, although as his dad was a Two-Face henchman maybe Tim would become Spoiler or another vigilante name to help.

Can we all agree it's creepy as hell when they make Batman smile ?

I really wish Tim drake could get an identity more unique than red Robin. It just feels too close to a sidekick to be unique and too unique to let him be a real sidekick either.

I really doubt dc would do a telephone poll to decide if Jason dies or not just to kick him out anyways. That would completely destroy the integrity of the vote. People were made that Jason Todd was robin, not that he was alive. He might have taken a break as robin before realizing that it’s his calling or something. Maybe something to do with family cuz I remember the storyline had his mother bribed to bait him out or joker posing as his mother to bait him out. they might have tried to rectify some of the issues people had with him and make him more like a guy Gardner type like you said. And if they absolutely had to get him out of the bat family picture, he’d probably become a vigilante all about street smarts, maybe going undercover to take down crime bosses from the inside or something… actually wait this was the 90s, he would have just shot everyone and everything still.

WDB was included in this? Ok that’s cool

Finally someone who is talking about this topic

as of “robin lives” it’s pretty obvious they wanted to write him out asap regardless; but idk if tim drake’d come into form

That one guy is the real guy to birth redhood

More than possible that he would’ve just been put into a Soap Opera coma, and we probably still would’ve gotten Tim Drake. DC/Batman Editorial was trying go back to basics with the third Robin. I think it’s still more than possible that Tim Drake would’ve been Robin, while Jason just slept in the background. Maybe he would’ve woken back up in the 90s. Maybe he would’ve been Hush. Maybe he would’ve gone missing and Under The Hood would’ve still played out. I do think whether he lived or not, he would’ve been shelved regardless

I feel for Jason a lil bit. His life taken from him. Not just being Robin, because his crossing a line into killing but His public life too. To the public Jason Todd is dead. He can't come back without suspicion.

Batman would learn less and no Tim Drake

You did a good job on the MrCreepyPasta vid

This should be like an elseworld's or like a what if? -like stoyline to read though

The important question is what about his mother would he still be close with her

You should do more what if videos

YES THE WATCHTOWER DATABASE ARE IN THIS VIDEO

My question that Ending Batman Arkham knight he said to Jason Todd saying you’re gonna be the Robin neck he did say that

That thumbnail man

i know if Jason lived i dont think id love him as much. Redhood is just the greatest

Dank video

I'd like to think Jason would've been in a coma even if he survived. Would've stayed that way for a long time too, maybe become the Red Hood even.

dc really need their own What if? series.

My tweet didn't make it in the video :(

Actually, I think Jason would have eventually become Red Robin after a few more years as Robin. Since Tim Drake likely wouldn't be around, and Jason wouldn't become Red Hood if he had lived, chances are he would have become Red Robin instead of Tim.

I think it would’ve been interesting if Jason didn’t die, they still could’ve introduced Tim just way later. Switch Tim and Damien’s introductions to where Jason is in recovery when Talia sends Damien to Bruce (maybe because she thinks Jason is dead?) and then Tim comes in and out of the comics every so often until Bruce “Dies” then Tim does his thing of bringing Bruce back. Do to this he gets to become a member of the batfam after trying for ages. A TON of stuff would have to be changed, I’m aware, but since this is all hypothetical it would work.

Would superboy prime' s punch effect someone else. I mean by him punching reality so hard it brought Jason back in his original revival.

Then he would be a guitarist in Shinedown

I think jason would become batman instead of azrael during knightfall and he would just possibly use guns

Everything happened for a reason 💯

4:30 He looks like Superman for a moment there.

My understanding, and I have to admit I can't find a source, was that Tim Drake was already being developed to replace Jason and so he'd have ended up as Robin regardless of whether Jason lived or not. But I do wonder if Jason would have effectively replaced Azrael/Jean-Paul Valley in the Knightfall series if he'd lived.

(Outside of vigilante stuff) he’d grow up get a scholarship to Gotham university and English major and he would help kids from crime alley find scholarships and a way out

Real question, would he have gotten proper trousers sooner? Bruce dressing his boys in tiny fishscale undies is weird.

For Jason, I think either more or less the same thing would happen, he’d be mad Batman didn’t kill Joker and Dc would dive heavy into that and mature him into the red hood, or, they’d dial it way back and make him way better at temper and impulse control and all that, ultimately tho, I think he’d still get the axe because Jason didn’t add anything in particular, and they coulda just pulled a comics moment and add some new aspect to his character aside from the two I mentioned to attempt to enrich his character but I think they’d ultimately get rid of him because I think no matter what way they cut it they’d still want a Tim Drake-like character/dynamic with Bats, because Tim has more character, and even if they did change Jason, unless they just made him like Tim, Tim’s side of the Dc lore would be untouched, I also think they’d go all in and make Jason Red Hood still

Cool watchtower database answered

if dc still has the art and scripts of jason living they should make that a special “what if” issue,, i would buy it 🤷🏻‍♀️

Technically he lived somehow cause red hood

jeez that guy really didnt like jason todd🤣

please provide the title of the film in your next shorts

I don't remember where I read this strip and wasn't sure if it was canon but Jason Todd was meant to be in a coma if he did live from Death in the family. I felt like I read it somewhere in a Batman comic but not sure

Jason Todd had the second longest superhero death after Barry Allen the Flash. 17 years (1988-2005) was a long wait for him to return to comics. However, it gave ample time for fans to fall in love with Tim Drake and watch him come into his own.

More whatifs could be cool!

tl;dr I rewrite a lot of Batman continuity starting with Knightfall all the way to New 52; Wall of Text imminent I think the next major divergence in the Batman timeline would have been Knightfall. Unlike Tim Drake, Jason would have leapt at the chance to become Batman. I could see a battle for the cowl type event happening right then and there, as Dick comes to believe that though he didn't initially want it, he sees Jason's Batman and disapproves to such a degree that he feels obligated to relieve Jason of the title. Or maybe Jason does a great job as Batman and Bruce becomes a mission control type character to Jason, instead of needing to take the mantle back from Azrael by force. Tim Drake could still exist as well, but a little later in the timeline. As Jason gets more aggressive and violent (maybe he kills the Joker?), Tim still tracks Dick Greyson down and asks him to be Robin again, not realizing that the mantle has changed hands. Dick isn't comfortable being Robin to Jason, so Tim goes on to fill the role himself. During Infinite Crisis, Superman-prime's infamous continuity punch could resurrect the Joker instead, who (re)takes the name of Red Hood to get revenge on Jason, while also using the Joker persona to play mind games with him. Under the Hood is Joker (as Red Hood) vs. Jason vs. Black Mask, instead of Bruce vs. Jason vs. Black Mask. Bruce gets the Joker's note about Jason (instead of the other way around,) and has to don the cowl once more to save Jason from the Joker. Jason takes the identity of the Red Hood for himself (as a f*ck you to the Joker,) Bruce goes back to being Batman, and continuity continues essentially as normal from there. Alternatively, Jason stays Batman and is the one who dies in Final Crisis, and Bruce and Dick fight over who gets to be Batman. Dick still wins, and Bruce shifts focus to Batman Inc. Jason comes back, cedes Batman to Dick, and becomes Red Hood through plot contrivance involving Joker's Red Hood disguise, which maybe Bruce has kept along with the stuff from when Joker died (instead of Jason's Robin costume?) Of course, then New 52 happens and who knows what they do with that. Jason has been Batman so long at this point in my ramble that they maybe give Batman back to him instead of Bruce. I'm rewriting so many little bits of the Batman mythos in my head right now, and I can't possibly put it all down here, so I'll just thank you for coming this far, and leave you with a what if, since Bruce is essentially Oracle in this version of the story. What if Barbara Gordon isn't crippled by the Joker, doesn't become Oracle, and instead goes on to become Batwoman with her very own Robin, Carrie Kelley?

Man so ther is one guy who execute jason Tod in real life

He'd keep being a bad Robin till he was fired by batman then he'd try to get revenge and fail.

then humanity would have one less action to proove that they are sociapthic when anonymos

Do you think superman should be able to break green lantern's constructs? Is Superman's physical strength stronger than GL's willpower?

It would be cool DC to have their own what if comics like marvel like what if Bruce Wayne parents were never murdered or Clark Kent wasn't raised by Jonathan and Martha Kent!

i love Watchtower Database

What if Jason Todd became the Red Knight

I feel if Jason lived he wouldve became Red Robin

Oh cool! Watchtower Database's tweet got read. His DCAU centered youtube content is amazing!

Are you the guy of crosover from game theorist

Do more amalgam

I wonder if that Displate code stacks, since Ive already got a 40% off code lying around...

Tim Drake is my favorite robin

Wait You Live In Dallas Texas Buddy:)

Hey Drake I don't know if it's normal but the logo for the sponsor at the end ( 6:50 ) only stays around for a fraction of a second. Just wanted to let you know in case it wasn't.

Marvel fans: well there is a movie about that it’s interactive right Dc fans: well I’m here to see what will happen if he lived in the comics MF: didn’t they do that Me: bruh

Arent they doing that with titans jason doesnt die

When adjudting for inflation that 1988 $160 is $346 in 2019. That paints a different picture from dedication to obsession.

he would have killed the joker and then taking the joker's identity cuz he would have been so crazy for everything that happened lol

I would be believe Batman would have treated Jason like he did Tim in Batman Beyond The Joker Returns making him retire and trying to not have as anymore robins by saying "this is my war I shouldn't have brought you in as I believe that I would have lost myself if you were to be killed"

What if, while being beaten, he got the power to be immune to crowbars?

Can this be a series of yours like masakox does for dbz