What if the Romulans Never Entered The Dominion War? | Star Trek 

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"And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, and all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal… and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer." - plain simple Garak, a Cardassian tailor

The "fifteen bases at once" point you made was excellent. Every nation likely has at least one vague battle plan to invade every other nation. The Romulans, known for espionage and mistrust, probably has a battle plan not just to invade the Dominion but also the Klingons and Federation.

The Humans are Space Orcs stories really show how much I believe in phrase "when faced with extinction, every alternative is preferable". In any case, we'll be here to stay once we've bridged the stars, Terra Invicta!

Well, I will say, based on how skillfully the reimagined New Republic/First Order conflict was done, I think doing these videos as a slightly more narratively-driven, "as if it actually happened" style would be really good.

I love how you're presenting this in character, specifically, that the Institute would have no way of knowing that the whole event was orchestrated by Cpt. Sisko and Garak and that nobody else involved survived to talk about their unwitting part in the ploy. Also Sisko's confrontation of Garak remains one of the best scenes in the show.

I like to think the Romulans were the kinds of people who'd have some kind of contingency in place in case the Dominion became a legit problem for them 🤔

I prefer this style of What If. Makes it very clear that it's a hypothetical. Going over it like your standard videos could be incredibly confusing and could even reflect poorly on the institute if someone doesn't understand that it's merely speculation

I absolutely agree: the Romulans were always going to intervene. With their advanced cloaking technology, I'll bet that they had substantial forces already in place even before the war began, ready to strike. The Romulans were simply waiting for the most opportune moment, hoping to weaken the Federation and Klingon Empire as much as possible while they built up their own fleets. I can easily see the Dominion attacking Vulcan only for the Romulans (rather ironically) to show up and defend it. Vreenak's death forced them to attack sooner than preferred, however.

I prefer this version of the alternate history videos. Its more laid back and allows you to cover different conclusions and possibilities.

First off, great idea for a series. What if is a beautiful way to investigate universes we've touched upon already. Presenting alternate histories as if they happened to an alternate universe you visited is more "on brand" both for you and of course many settings that have alternate timelines like Trek. To answer the question, probably a defeat given the losses incurred by the Klingons and Federation forces in their own war and fighting the Dominion to that point. And if the Breen join anyways, then it's possible the Romulans join the Dominion just not to be left out in the new galactic order, though I could see them helping the Klingon/Federation alliance behind the scenes just to force the Dominion to quagmire. Also the Son'a and others were providing ketracel so it's not a given the Jem H'adar go feral at least in the near future timescale we are looking at here. Where are the Organians when you need them?

I think there were a few caged demons the federation would have entertained releasing, in the event that Romulus didn't enter the war against the Dominion. A suicide run with Omega to the Founders' world, a few technical experiments run amok, or an AI disaster like Moriarty all seem viable.

Love the use of the Dukat/Weyoun scene. Although there are many other examples, that is probably the best summation of Dukat's villainy in just a couple lines.

The Tal'shiar tried to glass the founder's homeworld. There's no way the Dominion would have left them alone, and the Romulans knew this. They were always going to enter the war.

"In the pale moonlight" Such an amazing episode of DS9

There is an interesting opportunity that DS9 missed when it comes to Sisko as you suggested. With In The Pale Moonlight episode, Sisko feels bad for betraying Federation principles, but he comes to the realization that the Romulans inflicted heavy losses on the Dominion almost immediately beyond the normal expectations of what the Romulans were ever capable of. Later on, someone tells Sisko (or his own thoughts), "Do you feel you violated your principles or what the Romulans wanted you to believe?" The Romulans never hesitated in TNG in wiping out their own people for significant gain, and it fits appropriately for their shrewd personality.

I think you should go the incoming route, because we’d be hearing your thoughts on the matter and not strictly the TI’s thoughts.

As much as I would love to see you do these vids in an "actually happened" format, I think it would be best to keep them as they are. It helps in case people are unfamiliar with the source material. Great vid by the way, love this content.

07:26 I'd love to see a story like that. The Alpha Quadrant lies in ruin, the founders have perished, the Dominion has splintered into rival factions ... and then, suddenly, the Borg enter the scene.

I have to say that I would love for you to continue the "What if?" series with the format of this episode. Not only will it allow you to use information from both timelines/universes, it will also make it easier for people not familiar with the canon events to learn a bit about them and maybe get invested enough to watch the actual shows/movies featuring the universe covered in the videos.

For that question at the end there, I'd personally be fine with either and/or both alt-timeline formats. For the specific video itself, I agree with the conclusions. If the Romulans didn't join the war, it wouldn't have been the UFP or the Dominion that would have won but the Borg. And in this case resistance would be futile. Thankfully for the UFP the Romulans joined sooner rather than later. Also, an intriguing thought is that in this timeline USS Voyager would have to go full Battlestar Galactica.

You know if we take future Trek content into consideration a Romulan victory is even more unlikely given that a devastating super nova is right around the corner that will rock them to their core. Without Starfleet to intervene the death toll would be even bigger than in the Prime Universe. Also I enjoy this Presentation more then the more in Universe one for this series.

The Romulans were waiting for a out come that would best align with interests they knew with the defeat of the Federation and the Klingons it would put them at a disadvantage by having one large hostile power on their border instead of two powers on their border trying to out do each other

I do figure that if not for the Vreenak affair, the Romulans would still enter the war, likely right around when the Feds really got turned a bit more defensive and the Dominion committed to 'turning their backs' on the Romulan Empire.

For this series, on this channel, I think keeping the format like this works. I may not be familiar with some alternate worlds and trying to keep track of the alternates of alternates might be a bit much for my fragile little head. 😂 Making it clear when you are talking about "what if" scenarios of already divergent timeliness helps keep things clear if I decide I want to investigate the "baseline" alternate on my own.

There's little more interesting to me than alternate histories of stories I already love. As for the format, I think I would prefer the presentation of the regular videos, as though it were an Institute investigation. That said, keeping it separate may benefit the content and viewer experience; rather than a single set of events, multiple options can be proposed, opinions can be presented, and there's less danger of miscommunication

I like the way you think. It makes sense now why the Romulans wouldn't tip their hand with strong border security, and why an apparently hostile Senator might accept the invitation of a station commander (who might have been offering those generous terms you mentioned) while on a supposedly secret mission. The Romulans starting their offensive at exactly 0800 DS9 Station Time seemed like too big a coincidence. It had to be a message to Starfleet that they knew what had happened.

Between the dying founders, the inability to get reinforcements from the Gamma Quadrant, an unruly Cardassia tired of having their soldiers die for the Dominion and the quagmire of planetary conquests, I would say the Dominions position is impossible to maintain. When the founders die, I do not think the Jem Hadar would go beserk. They have already shown that they may not live having failed to protect their gods and so I think a mass suicide is more likely. As for the Romulans, they were waiting for an excuse. I concur in your opinion that they waited for the right moment; preferably when the Federation could still fight and the Klingons had sustained so heavy casulties to not be a threat. The Federation and the Romulans have - for all their animosity - more in common than not.

I think the analytical format is better for most alternate history episodes, but the format mimicking the regular Templin Institute deep dives would be better for a deeper, more focused alt-history, one with perhaps a better defined narrative with tighter speculation. Keep up the wonderful work!

I think I would support either an analytical presentation over a alternate narrative. I think this way lays out the thinking behind the conclusions in a better way than storytelling narrative could provide.

"I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain." Simple tailor

I think this could lend itself to another series akin to your Sequel Trilogy reimagining you did a little ways back. I loved seeing you take everything apart and put them back together in a unique but still similar way, and I think you could do that with this format as well!

Two and a half decades later and DS 9 is still relivent! Well done!!!!

I prefer this format to the other suggested one. As someone who watches all of your video, but happens to be unfamiliar with Star Trek, it allows me to keep straight what happened in the show and what is your projection of what could happen based on the hypothetical change.

a simple tailor once told me that if a "spy" had motivated the Romulans to side with the Federation and Klingons well...as he put it "it would be the political shakeup of the century" but he was just a simple tailor after all.....just plain.....

I'm a simple man. I see an Akira-class starship, I like 🙂

Sci-Fi Alternate History? What a great place for your channel to explore. Love your channel. Keep up the good work.

If you guys go ahead with this series, I think having the explainers like this (aka like Incoming) makes it clearer when you're talking about alternative events rather than those that occured in the respective cannon. That said, it'd be good to see both versions of this show so we can compare and contrast. Great video btw, DS9 is a great star trek to focus on for this sort of show

Definitely preferred this premise to the "things that annoyed me" pilot. As for which format to use, I think I'd prefer this style over the "as if it really happened" option, but both would work well imo.

The way they brought the romulans in was genius writing I think..

I can see the people of the hills of eastern KY with bourbon in the blood fighting to the bloodily end and I know my blood line if it still lives in KY to do the same.

I loved the First Order/New Republic war reimagining (even if you did take a page from the German Empire's war plans) that was done. But what made that episode amazing was the preceding episodes explaining the faults in the two sides and how you would go about fixing them. I think a combined approach would be the best - analize the information, the present a compeling story for the "what if" scenario.

Definitely prefer the presentation person in this episode. I find it interesting to hear how you came to conclusions and your thoughts on other possibilities

I prefer this style of what if. Where it is clear it is alternate history / timeline and it can be neatly compared to what actually happened or other possibilities.

i like this type of "what if" video as i can see the other option becoming confusing to people who don't know some of the universes that you would cover

Section 31's strategic outlook: From hell's heart I stab at thee. For hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee.

As someone who has a few What IF comics, please keep this one in the rotation. Heck I can think of one other event for the Star Trek universe "What if Humans did not develop faster than light travel when they did"

I doubt the federation would have fallen, at least not as quickly as it may seem here. As the war progressed further into federation territory and closer to the sol system the supply lines of the federation would be shorter and the situation more desperate, the fighting would become more vicious and the defenders more tenacious, enough so that it would impress even the Klingons, speaking of which I don't think the Klingons had entirely committed to the war in its entirety by this point, and some reserves were still being held back. I think that the war would have encroached into federation core territory and Klingon space as well but as long as the wormhole could be held to prevent Dominion reinforcements from the gamma quadrant, they would run out of ships and jem hadar before the federation runs out of miranda class vessels. At this point the Dominion may begin to split and shatter as the founders perish. Maybe then the romulans would join the war to look like the heroes who ended it.

I think I like the casual speculation format rather than a usual factual accounting

4:44 _"No greater sacrifice has ever been asked of a people but I ask you now, to step forward one last time, one last battle to hold the line against the night!"_

I would like more alternate fictional histories in this format please.

I got a good one. What if Baltar knew about the cylon back door and plugged it without sixes knowledge. In other words what would have happened if when the cylons attacked the 12 colonies the back door didn't work and the colonies could actually put up a counteroffensive.

I think you're missing one key factor in a Dominion Civil War: the Cardassians. During their alliance with the Dominion, the Cardassians retained autonomy. If Gul Dukat was still around by the time that the Founders died off, it wouldn't be out of character for him to try to put Cardassians on top of the new Dominion hierarchy. This would probably result in the Cardassians becoming the dominant power in the Alpha Quadrant. Another possibility is that the Founders delay the invasion of the Romulan Star Empire, possibly due to the morphogenic virus. If so, the Romulans would certainly take the opportunity to expand. We might see an Alpha Quadrant divided between Romulan and Cardassian spheres of influence. That certainly sounds dire, except that both societies faced internal pressure to reform. The Cardassian reform movement was explicitly allied to the Federation and might be able to draw support from Federation remnants.

Really enjoyed this, and the format suits this new type of content perfectly. As long as we keep getting the normal style videos as well, then amazing 👌🏻

I genuinely believed the Romulans knew the datarod was a fake. But they knew by that point that they needed to get involved in the war, or face a Dominion dominated Alpha quadrant and this was the best excuse they were gonna get and the Federation just handed it to them.

Enjoyed the episode! Keep it up!

This made me wonder if the ketrasel white wasn't only to keep Dominion troops loyal but also to make them unable to be assimilated by the borg.

Love the episode as the minion war is my favorite story in all of Trek. As for style, I think you should use a hybrid version. Start with where things stand at the moment, then give a detail of what changes you are assuming then tell us a story. End with a quick overview of the long-term consequences as you see them.

This was dope keep it up. I like the analytical approach.

Great video! Love this format and could see you doing a lot more really interesting ones like this

I prefer the way this episode was done. Felt more like a conversation then the "factual" way a normal episode style would come across.

I like the idea of talking about it as if it already happened, like it's just another alternate universe that you're investigating.

I really like how the alternative timelines worked out for Star Wars so I think that a similar style should be used for the series.

Honestly, seeing Earth glasses like that is... Heartbreaking.

Excited for more o this series!

A common problem I've noticed in what-if scenarios (Not this one necessarily just in general, this one provides good arguments for your case, I just thought it would be worth making this issue more widely known) is that there's a common assumption that the way the good guys won in the canon was the only way that could have possibly won. As if the rebellion could have ONLY won if they won the Battle of Endor, exactly the same way it happened in canon or that the Free People's could have ONLY won by following the exact way it happened in the films. It's as if a lot of people don't consider the idea that the good guys could have won a different way. A remember a common piece of advice in military analysts that one of the most common reasons that a plan fails is that they assume that their enemy will do nothing in response to them. A good example of this would be the common what if Nazi Germany invented jet planes. A lot of people assume that the Germans would annihilate the Allied Airforce and somehow win the war, never considering that the Allies might find some countermeasure to the jet planes (A scenario that might have befallen the Death Star even without the plans) or create their own jet planes now that they know that the technology exists. This isn't a problem with this scenario in particular, I don't know enough about Star Trek to criticise it in any case, and I like that you mentioned that the Romulans were inevitably going to join the war. It's just something worth keeping in mind, there's more than one path for good to triumph. Also, I prefer the first format, which avoids things being confusing.

Seeing how the Institute investigates alternate worlds without much trouble, I have no problem with them making quick scans and reports of alternate timelines from those worlds that almost occurred but faded from reality before a thorough investigation could be completed.

This will probably be my favourite. What if's/alternate history is my favourite genre.

I love this alternate history of Star Trek! Can you do more of it? I love the realism you used!

The part about the Borg is, Voyager was in the Delta Quadrant. Say the alternate future Janeway still comes back, Voyager will come blasting into the Alpha Quadrant to find the Dominion has taken over, but more importantly, the Borg would have still been heavily crippled.

I love this new episode type, please keep it goong

We need more What if episodes, because the possibilities are endless. For example, what if Anakin DIDN'T turn to the darkside and became Darth Vader? Or what if Frodo was able to throw the Ring of Power into the fires of Mount Doom before finally succumbing to its influence? Or what if the Zeon had won the One Year War? Like I said, the possibilities of episodes of this series are endless.

This was great. I would like this to become a regular thing you do. I'm very interested in seeing your other products as well. I'll be watching this video again.

I think this style is better for this type of video. People who aren’t necessarily familiar with the source material are less likely to get confused. Either way I’m excited to see more.

That assumes the Dominion wouldn't be able to find a cure .Odo was still beshear's friend and he would have still worked day and night to try to find a cure for him. And Odo still would have had that drive to save his people.

My person headcanon is that the Tal Shiar actually arranged the whole thing to get rid of Vreenak and create a casus belli. Vreenak was a true believer who wanted the Dominion to *win*, and the fact that he was willing to meet the Dominion in person (and risk being replaced by a changeling) made him a massive liability. If Vreenak exposed Romulan plans to the Dominion that could be disastrous.

For a "what-if" perspective, I prefer this format.

what ifs are fantastic if presented so thoughtfully like you all just did, great job

I think I prefer this format. it seems more in line with the theme of the channel. I'm down with more alternate fictional future history.

I definitely prefer this format to the alternative - presenting events as hypotheticals allows you to show alternative options more easily, and toy with the various What-Ifs.

Thank you the Video and the English subtitle.

"So… I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all… I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again, I would. Garak was right about one thing, a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it. I can live with it… Computer, erase that entire personal log."

I think the ideal format for any form of alternate history is a narrative as long as why things turned ought that way are are understandable

Analytical what-ifs is better suited towards discussing sub-variants, so I like that idea better.

"That was the moment I made the decision. It was like I had stepped through a door and locked it behind me. I was going to bring the Romulans into the war." -- Benjamin Sisko

Personally, I think the most likely truth is that a faction within the Romulan Star Empire desiring to enter the war assassinated Vreenak both to eliminate a vocal proponent of continued neutrality and provide a casus belli for declaring war. In my opinion, the only plausible alternative to the Romulans going to war against the Dominion is not continued neutrality but as the Breen later did, going to war alongside the Dominion. However, if they had, I think it likely the Breen would have gotten involved on the side of the Federation Alliance.

"Official Station Vocabulary Guidelines state that we now refer to these incidents as 'tragic shuttle system failures,' given that 'tragic shuttle accident' implies that there's nobody to blame." -Constable Odo

Great video

I like the analytical option

More What Ifs please. Im sure I’m not alone is wanting more of this content

The other way to look at it is comparing the redeployment needed by the Cardassian/Dominion alliance. Before it was: C/D: sometimes put one fleet on the Cardassian-Romulan border to raid Federation territory Romulans: put one Fleet on the Romulan-Cardassian border out of justifiable caution, and one fleet on the Romulan-Federation border. Federation: has to put one fleet on the Federation-Romulan border to keep an eye on the Romulans, and a second fleet there to try and catch Dominion Raiders. Net is that the Dominion only has to have one fleet present some of the time, while the Federation has to keep two fleets there all of the time. Now the Romulans join the war. Ignoring the surprise attack and the morale benefits, the different perspectives are: Romulans: use their fleet on the Romulan-Cardassian border to attack, and use half of their fleet on the Romulan-Federation border to reinforce. Federation: can take the fleet that was watching the Dominion and send it to the Federation-Cardassian border. Seeing that the Romulans have removed half of their fleet, the Federation can also remove half of their fleet and send that to the F-C border as well. C/D: They now have three fleets they have to counter with three fleets of their own, where before they only had to allocate one fleet at part-time levels

I feel like for clarity's sake, this format is best. For my own personal enjoyment, I'd love to see these 'what if's in the format of the standard Templin Investigations.

Along the same vein, I would also love to see crossovers between universes, to compare their different technological and strategic capabilities. Would the Federation be able to handle the Empire at the height of its power? Could the world of Mass Effect survive a full-scale Tyrannid invasion? It would be interesting to see how the battles, how the wars, change given the situation.

definitely prefer the narrative theres something stirring in feeling the desperation of a doomed last stand, lives given in service to others or feeling the tension in a rapidly degrading situation, feeling history's cruel irony as every chance at a peaceful resolution is exhausted

The "as it happened" format is my preference. It offers the same data but presented in a more interesting way. And you are definitely right that the Romulans probably planned to enter the war early, they are known for having contingency plans for contingency plans.

I vote for the Incoming style; this one would actually be a lot better for these what-if scenarios you're discussing. By the way, an interesting turn of events you speculate on if the Dominion won the Dominion War; the Dominion ultimately collapses in on itself because of the war, and then the Borg swoops in out of nowhere to conquer all life in the Galaxy. However, if this is the case, then how about what other, more unexpected guests, would have to say about Galactic geopolitics then? Like say, the Q, the Federation in the 31st Century, or even the Terran Empire?

Imagine how many back-hand punches Sisko would have to had to dish out to win the war..

It was always in Romulan star empire's best interests to enter the war and ensure a federation alliance victory in the end as any other outcome, meant their eventual destruction and conquest at the hands of the conquering dominion. Suspect that assassination of said Romulan senator gave them the necessary cause belli to enter the war without either side questioning their motives or real reasons in doing so. A war that they obviously had been preparing for months in advance given how quickly they were able to mobilise and make their presence felt in the first days of their involvement in the war.

Now this is a lovely little timeline, I'd like to see more of it and whatever things are running through the Institutes files.

I like discussing options. Alternate scenarios help me understand the actual timeline better.