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What is Leibniz's Law? (The Identity of Indiscernibles) 

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An explanation of Leibniz's law and the identity of indiscernibles. Including debates around how it applies to intrinsic vs extrinsic properties and pure vs impure properties.
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Information for this video gathered from The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy, The Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy and more!

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8 июл 2024

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Комментарии : 40   
@MrThomazSatiro
@MrThomazSatiro 3 года назад
So.. there is only one electron?
@kas00078
@kas00078 3 года назад
They can differ in extrinsic(I think) properties such as position and momentum, which makes them discernible.
@prismaesthetic1208
@prismaesthetic1208 3 года назад
That's what George Carlin used to say.
@NicoAssaf
@NicoAssaf 3 года назад
@@kas00078 That's taking the non-controversial approach to Leibniz's Law. If you agree that only pure and intrinsic properties count, there really is one electron. I assum that by extension there's only one of each fundamental particle.
@NicoAssaf
@NicoAssaf 3 года назад
First thing that came to mind. I wonder if the one-electron world hypothesis is based on this kind of Leibnizian logic.
@Bruh-el9js
@Bruh-el9js 3 года назад
no because you can use reference points as a property, and there aren't two electrons in the exact same place, this electron is in place A while this other one is in place B, that makes them different entities edit: I don't know to which point you can extend these spatial relations, because, if there's only two objects orbiting a nuclei in a universe, can I use "left" and "right" of each other to distinguish them ? can I attribute a frame of image to say "object A goes first and object B comes after in clockwise motion" ?
@cliffordhodge1449
@cliffordhodge1449 3 года назад
These problems arise if we assume, as Leibniz did, that space (as well as time) is relational, not absolute. Otherwise spatial location would seem to enter into questions of identity. Aside from Kant's argument from incongruous (or incommensurate) symmetrical counterparts as a proof of the absolute reality of space, just consider a possibly practical example of how spatial location may be taken to be a property (whether impure, extrinsic, or otherwise) which matters for identity questions. Forgetting about magnetic properties, and just considering the earth's poles as geometric markers, if you know something is located at the North Pole, then you know it is not identical with something located at the equator, regardless the qualitative identity of the objects. In the two spheres example, we are considering spatial objects, so there is space in this universe. If there is space, it can presumably be represented by a coordinate grid. If one ball occupies one set of points, and the other a different set of points, that would seem to go a long way toward demonstrating their mutual discernibility, since even if you assume space is merely relational, it does not follow that the coordinate model of space is invalid. No matter what set of points you claim the first ball occupies, the second ball must occupy a different set, otherwise they are apparently not spatial, and indeed not even purely geometric objects.
@Hunbatz95
@Hunbatz95 3 года назад
Spatial relationships are extrinsic properties as to which , the discernibility is almost trivial. The problem arises when considering only intrinsic properties (related to the object only). A modern example is the question: is every electron the same?
@silverhare6537
@silverhare6537 3 года назад
Is that argument related to the Neo-Newtonian arguments?, made me recall it by how similar it is to it..
@dragonsword343
@dragonsword343 3 года назад
How does this work with Leibniz's view that 1=1, though they have the same numeric value, the spatial distinction between the first notation of "1" and the second one leads to some sort of "difference"?
@jessieisberg4636
@jessieisberg4636 3 года назад
Spatial differences are an extrinsic property
@ZoiusGM
@ZoiusGM Год назад
4:24 I don't understand why we have to conclude that there is only one object in the universe. Each one of the spheres have the same pure and intrinsic properties such as roundness and let's say color. And we could say that all of them have the pure property of being close to other objects (it does not specify which means it is a pure property). Thus we can conclude that there are three spheres in the universe.
@lizgichora6472
@lizgichora6472 3 года назад
Thank you.
@thearchive8687
@thearchive8687 3 года назад
What are the pure intrinsic properties shared commonly between two things-in-themselves?
@CarneadesOfCyrene
@CarneadesOfCyrene 3 года назад
I'm not sure I understand your question. Here are a couple of video on pure properties (ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mDgtazA9oTI.html) and intrinsic properties (ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-1bHif_l44CI.html) that might help.
@Bruh-el9js
@Bruh-el9js 3 года назад
I mean, you can probably dissecate this phrase in order to find out. 1. a pure property is a property that does not reference to anything else 2. intrinsic means that the object cannot exist without a specific property 3. things-in-themselves sounds redundant, as by using "intrinsic" we already stablish the objects that would make your phrase something like "properties which cannot refference anything and are necessarily part of these (at least) two different things."
@Nicoder6884
@Nicoder6884 Год назад
I absolutely oppose the idea at 3:24 that Leibniz's law holds for pure intrinsic properties. This is because in logic, the idea of "properties" is expressed by predicates and relations, and "a = b" implies that "a" and "b" can be substituted for each other salva veritate. If two things managed to be identical but did not sharing the same relations, then substituting them would lead to invalid inferences. Therefore, sharing both "pure intrinsic properties" (predicates) and "pure extrinsic properties" (relations) should be a necessary condition (though maybe not sufficient?) for identity.
@BizVlogs
@BizVlogs Год назад
If we take abstractions to be true, real things, then Leibniz’s Law can be applied. Two abstractions can have different underlying realities but abstract out to be the same thing. All the matter making up all the golf balls in the world can be abstracted out to represent the abstraction “Golf Ball”. And since each abstraction is indiscernable, they are actually the “same” abstraction. They are all golf balls. But that’s not to say all of the underlying realities are the same, all the matter making up these golf balls is different. It still makes sense with intuition. Leibniz’s Law, the identity of indiscernables, (or the 2=2 principle in Abstract Realism) comes in handy anywhere you have a macro state which can be represented by any one of multiple micro states. Here’s an example: someone simulates this planet in a computer. The abstraction of “you” is identical in the simulation and in real life. This proves that you would be fully conscious in the simulation. There are many other implications, but that’s just an example.
@skepticedge2792
@skepticedge2792 3 года назад
Nice & stimulating .4 me the objects must share in the time & locality to be the same otherwise they r replicates.
@CarneadesOfCyrene
@CarneadesOfCyrene 3 года назад
Thanks! The challenge is how do you define location or time as a property if not in relation to some other object. If you need other particular objects for something to be the same, then you are including extrinsic and impure properties (and the law is comparatively non-controversial).
@skepticedge2792
@skepticedge2792 3 года назад
@@CarneadesOfCyrene a very good point
@jessieisberg4636
@jessieisberg4636 3 года назад
Both time and locality are extrinsic properties and thus not considered by Leibniz's law
@danielcorreiadefreitas1073
@danielcorreiadefreitas1073 3 года назад
There are alternative formulations to set theory were the identity property is weakened. Namely the quasi-set theory, which has inspiration on quantum physics.
@kennarajora6532
@kennarajora6532 3 года назад
the philosophy equivalent to the one electron postulate.
@CarneadesOfCyrene
@CarneadesOfCyrene 3 года назад
Very interesting postulate, there are certainly many similarities.
@kazikmajster5650
@kazikmajster5650 9 месяцев назад
"If 2 objects are indiscernible (have all the same properties) then they are the same object. Lmao, layman Extensionality! If we require ALL properties to be identical, then no unobvious objects are indiscernible, because we can take "distance from London", "distance from Warsaw" and "distance from Berlin" as properties, and after triangulation, 2 objects become indiscernible ONLY if they are in the exact same place. Interesting things begin to happen when we limit this requirement to Pure properties. Then, in an universe where there exist only 2 metal balls, they are indiscernible, because they have the same size, mass, weight, distance from another ball, etc. So that universe contains only one object. In conclusion, a mildly interesting topic, but seems rather useless in comparison to Extensionality.
@km1dash6
@km1dash6 3 года назад
If x and y are identical, then the property x=x is true, and because x equals x, y will also have to equal x. So the law is true when given a broad definition, but question begging, because if two objects share all the same properties, they share the property of being identical to the same object, itself, which is the question we are trying to answer with this law.
@CMVMic
@CMVMic 3 года назад
Some questions can only be answered via question begging
@km1dash6
@km1dash6 3 года назад
@@CMVMic begging the question is a logical fallacy where you assume the answer you're trying to prove. Assuming you're right doesn't prove anything, or answer any questions. Let's imagine Lois Lane is trying to figure out if Superman is Clark Kent. She asks herself if they have all the same properties. Eventually, she will say "well, Clark Kent is identical to Clark Kent, is Superman also identical to Clark Kent?" Well, that's what we're trying to figure out in the beginning. That is the circular reasoning I am talking about, and why this law, in the most general sense, is true, but not useful.
@CMVMic
@CMVMic 3 года назад
@@km1dash6 i agree it doesn't prove truth but it doesnt follow that it cannot be true. Try answering the problem of the criterion without begging the question.
@km1dash6
@km1dash6 3 года назад
@@CMVMic I didn't say that it wasn't true, and in fact I said this principle was true, but basically trivial. Begging the question is a problem because a statement might be true, but it tends to require proof. Take the statement "oatmeal is healthy," and let it equal x. If I try to prove x by saying assume x, therefore x, I didn't prove anything. Regarding the problem of criterion without circular reasoning: water is the liquid state of H2O. That was an empirical discovery. It didn't assume the chemical compound H2O is identical to water in order to prove itself. If you're looking for a definition of identity, I don't think there is one. I think identity is simple and unanalyzable. Can I prove that? No. If you're interested in problems of analysis, I would recommend G.E. Moore's Principa Ethica. In his discussion around goodness, he gives the Open Question argument, where he says any definition of good is either a tautology or false. I don't find it persuasive, but you might like it.
@CMVMic
@CMVMic 3 года назад
@@km1dash6 I didn't say you said it wasn't true either. It isn't necessarily a problem but it can be a problem but the question should be who is it a problem for and why? Statements require proof... why is that? I can hold something as true, but I don't see why I need to prove something as true before holding it as true and it actually being true. Also, establishing identity via empirical proof relies on the truth of phenomenal conservatism. What makes intellectual seemings/appearances truth indicative? That itself should require justification. Either one justifies via foundationalism which would be an arbitrary assumption or one uses circular reason i.e. the reliability of pc makes pc reliable. Also, let's say A=A is what you arguing for, you haven't proved A=A, you have mainly defined things in a certain way. This doesn't prove foundationalism as anything more than an arbitrary assertion. I find no interest in G.E. Moore's Principa Ethica.
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