Unless the DM’s sister is the problem… We want to play and are ready regularly. But her sister keeps ruining it and the DM always allows it. The rest of us want to boot her…
Everyone else: “hmm, let’s try to make the best party we can and create a great composition” The party I dm: “all of us are different totem barbarians, we’re like fantasy power rangers”
Kelly: each of my picks is going to be one of two of those core roles and be able to buff each other. Monty: each of my picks is a cracked subclass that fills every role at once
@@Jonathan0rtiz My players just hit level three and, after losing their fighter, it looks like I'll be dealing with: 1: Moon Druid 2. Tempest Cleric 3. Glamour Bard 4. Storm Sorcerer This is going to get complicated.
I was in a 5-man party, all different Clerics, who were not only disgusting in battle but the RP opportunities were awesome. We debated which of our deities was the strongest, played chess in camp whenever possible, and generally brought the light of AoE spellcasting to the world.
"Hey guys, have you noticed how many battles we seem to get into against hidden enemies? They're all invisible or hiding or in magical darkness." "Or using Shadow of Moil." "Or Blur." "I swear we've spent half the campaign blinded, poisoned, frightened, or restrained." "It wouldn't be so bad if not for all the quests that took us underwater or into narrow caves where we're squeezing through spaces smaller than a Medium creature." "And when we're out in the open, it's always some sniper firing from very long distance." "It didn't help that we ended up on a mission through the Jungle of the Displacer Beasts, and all the villains in the stronghold there had crafted Cloaks of Displacement." "We should have seen that coming, and I guess we could've avoided the Battle Smith Artificers Guild with all those Steel Defenders. But why do so many bad guys have the Protection fighting style?" "I told you guys we should've just backed down from the fight with the Monastery of Patient Defense!" "Don't forget how the big villains always seem to have a paladin henchman using Holy Aura and Compelled Duel." "And so often we have to fight them after some grueling slog that causes us three levels of exhaustion." "I think we can agree that if we ever have a team like this again, let's make sure the BBEG isn't the head of the Divination and Chronurgy Wizards Academy before we pick our feats."
TBF Monty's team can also really boost each other. I mean Kelly says "Oh I want all this healing", but 3/4 of Monty's team has healing. It's more like Kelly's idea is to create the perfect ingredients into a single meal, like a pie or sandwich or soup. Monty's idea is more like "I'm tossing all these amazing foods together because that's how awesome works"
I dunno about friendship and teamwork: One angry holy man, an artsy politician, some gloomy guy you never see, and a neurotic nerd that knows everything bad that's going to happen? ^,^
I think that Monty's party is more powerful, however I like Kelly's party more. While I understand Monty's design of everyone can do most tasks, I like Kelly's more classic party dynamic, Paladin as the frontline/healer, Ranger as damage dealer and explorer, Wizard and Bard for magic and buffs.
As far as I know in 5e antimagic is pretty weak as the spell anyway. There might be something stronger in the DM rules though. The standard spell is a very limited area. also I think the earth elemental (FKA druid) would still function inside the field? Though in the flavour text it says "it magically assumes" so I guess it might be. The other thing is antimagic field would take up the casters sole 8th level slot (assuming they even know it) that said counter spell and dispell magic are valid concerns with a magic centric party (though the blade singer could counter spell in return or even counter spell a cast of anti magic Field)
@@user-dmiller They have enough slots to just counterspell all day anyway. And the bladesinger is still doing extra attack. And the druid is still probably going to wildshape depending on the source of this nebulous "anti magic situation"
@@user-dmiller I would worry more about Aoe fights in Montys party; cleric and warlock can suffer a lot from this, and bladesinger even if it has absorb elements can get really hurt. It would be wise that more than one Pj bring counterspell but still againts dragon breaths or similar that party can be on a bad situation. Kellys party however it has the divination wizard, and the bardic inspiration to make sure every that gets hit by one of this is only taking half damage. I think is better equip for more situations. and thats why i think its better.
@@johannortega101 Yeah but the druid can use absorb elements too. I think Monty's Picks are better just because all party can fit all roles. Everyone could just attack from some distance whenever it's necessary
I love the flavour and theme of Monty's build, but even as a veteran player and chronic DM, I love the simplicity in Kelly's build and would prefer a more "this guy has these jobs". I also love seeing players let each other take the spot light in different scenarios and Monty's mush pile doesn't help make that happen. It's tight, but I prefer Kelly's style.
Fair point. But what I like is the redundancy of the mush pile. In a specialized group, if one member goes down, this means a critical vulnerability in the field that character used to fill. The mush pile, however, can more easily absorb such a loss.
@@blingwraith6951 More fun? I would argue that depends entirely on the players making up that group. Even a sub-par character can be insanely fun with the right player behind it.
For me, some major issue with Monty`s build is that it combines 2 of the 3 notorious and unfun game-breakers, that probably need a major nerf: Twilight Domain and Moon Druid; only missing out on the Peace Domain. - Bladesinger and Hexblade provide fantastic flavor; the latter might be way stronger as a dip, though. - Kelly`s build is indeed far better grounded; one could only make an argument that Vengeance is - maybe - overall not "the" strongest Paladin kit. But, margins are already extremely small for such a power house of a base class. Divi, Gloomy, and Elo are almost self-explaining, though.
Kelly's was the ideal party that I would have thought of, but Monty's was the jaw dropping party that would never have occurred to me. Full casters with a strong physical presence that synergize with each other? CR thrown out the window.
I stopped using CR s as anything other than a guideline a long time ago. I’m running for five players. Swashbuckler, moon Druid, life Cleric, storm hexblade sorlock, and devotion paladin. It’s fun
i’d love to play a game with a Battlemaster fighter, a Thief rogue, a Life cleric, and a Conjuration wizard. no obvious synergy, but the sheer thought of playing the OG archetypal fantasy heroes would be so cool.
There's kinda of a synergy there Battlemaster manuevers can help the rogue to go roguish and do thief things in battle. Life cleric is always good and the conjuration wizard has great battlefield control to isolate the front guys (fighter and rogue) and have optimal damage spread while not needing to be that conservative playing
@@JoaoVictor-ic3ht almost anything can synergize with anything in 5e, the problem comes in when you try and get players to work together strategically to actually make the synergy 💀
My exact thought, the ranger is the only one in either party that operates under loss of spells. Montes party also super reliant on not being denied long rest repeatedly.
@@lukelblitz3627 No...the rescue/gold/monster to kill is in the Anti Magic City. DM smiles like Hannibal...and a little drool drips from his bottom lip....(Edit: Just joking of course. I just the thought of Hannibal as a DM made me laugh)
so basically the argument is "as DM i can kill your party either way because i have everything at my disposal". if that is the sentiment then no party is any good ^^
@@FdMBIOSat (Preface: In a home brew...my fav way to play) On the contrary...if the DM is just out to get the players, then the DM becomes lonely (cuz he will have no players/friends). The DM's job is to put fourth the world, the story, the characters/monsters/treasure....and let the players find their way in the world as the story and the adventure unfolds before them. Hopefully the DM can incorporate the backstories within the main story and make it personal to them. As a DM, I find that an incredible way to draw in the players. As a player, I love it and it makes it deeply emotional when you lose a character.
You should start them with Artificer then 1-19 lvls Wizard. My thoughts Div, Div, Evoker, Transmutation. Two Divs to portent Against Legendary Resistance.
Kelly made a great archetypical adventuring party, perfect for guiding a couple hobbits to Mordor or any other standard task. But Monty built an entire squad of killers that I can't imagine having to fight against.
The all elf casters idea could theoretically also give the party access to proper high magic for lvl 20 and beyond, though we don't have any solid rules for casting the elven high magic in 5e
It is attribute based or they do not survive the casting as a certainty. There is a ceremony of elixir's & tomes for example. Studied as one sips..no less.
Necromancer Wizard, Oathbreaker Paladin, Eloquence Bard (with Infernal Calling), and Twilight Cleric. The synergy between these 4 minion mancer builds is insane. The Party's army of Undead and Fiends is a force to be reckoned with.
We had a party once that buckled down on the Darkness theme and we had a Gloom stalker Ranger Necromancy Wizard Death Domain Cleric Shadow Monk And while normally that might not be very strong as a whole. In our campaign it was. Heh. And we had a 5th player come in late who decided to be a Spore Druid. And we just had a blast.
Reminds me of my Tyranny of Dragons Party. Mastermind Rogue Grave Domain Cleric Berserker Barbarian Shadow Monk and recently added, a Wild Magic Sorcerer.
If you want a super strong dark party, an oath breaker paladin is incredibly strong. The aura of hate buffs friends and undead, giving them a bonus to damage equal to the paladins charisma bonus. So you put your paladin on a mount with a reach weapon allowing the friends and undead can guard them. The necromancer wizard gets all their undead buffed in range, they can then summon greater demon, any hexblades get their specters buffed, any vampire players get buffed. If allowed you can play a variant tiefling with medium armor and still be able to fly concentration/spell free. If the paladin stops at 7 and multiclasses to hexblade they become Single attribute dependant, they can summon their own specter, and eventually their own fiends, and with invocations can add their charisma 3x to their attacks. And you have access to the paladin spells and slots up to 2nd level, and the hexblade spells, meaning you get to cast shield, invisibility, mirror image, counter spell, fly, and teleportation as a paladin using paladin slots, while you smite with your warlock slots, although smiting isn't my preferred tactic for this character at high levels. It can take a while to come online for the crazy powerful combos, but you'd still be a paladin for early levels, which always pretty good.
Kelly's party: Dark Fantasy Monty's party: Sword & Sorcery I would love to DM for either of these parties or an equivalent party. Throwing CR out is basically my modus operandi.
And it's always great when the person who doesn't know their abilities also then argues with 2 other players and the DM all 3 of whom have their books open literally reading how the ability works.
A suggestion for a video series for Kelly and Monty: one video per class where you explain how you'd build a 4-person party where everyone is a member of the class. It'd be super interesting!
My Thursday DnD group kind of has the off-brand version of the first combination: 1) Vengeance Paladin 2) Lore Bard 3) Arcane Trickster 4) Grave Cleric We weren't looking that hard at party composition when making those characters (and almost none of our character backgrounds or attributes were picked with optimization in mind, see: Arcane Trickster with the Acolyte background), but I'd say our party is more than capable of handling challenges beyond our level. I don't have my own dream team roster lined up, but in practice I can vouch for the fact that this kind of combination works well.
I've always wanted to play `The Short Rest Party`. Basically it's everyone who regains their core resources on short rest. Warlocks, monks (ki), fighters (action surge, second wind, maneuvers), perhaps druids who often utilize wild shape (moon, spores). Also the combination of any listed in the multiclass is kinda part of the idea.
I was going to write this. Way of Mercy monk Tabaxi and something like criminal for a load of infiltration skills. Celestial Warlock. Aasimar Hex + EB as main damage output, gives two healers/support characters. Fiend warlock. Gives those AOE blasts. With two warlocks you’ve got faces sewn up too. Wood elf sun soul monk. Probably something like outlander to get the explorer stuff. Gives you a plethora of attacks and Ki points, plus a secondary blaster. When you get high enough level your front rank combatants are proficient in all saves, decent AC immune to all sorts of things, and with the way of mercy can be quickly cured of loads of conditions too, if they do fail a save. From 7th level the Fiend warlock can fireball them and not kill them thanks to evasion for taking out crowds, or fire off an upcast scorching ray for that synergy with hex as a nova round. And the party never argues about taking a short rest!
An oddball to this idea, but in my mind a good barbarian does want short rests. Ideally I personally want my barbarians to really have abilities to keep enemies on them (I'm currently playing an ancestral guardian who also grapples a lot, keeping the other members as safe as possible) and thus should take a lot of hits. Yes they have a lot of HP and half a lot of damage. But if everything goes right I take a ton of hits and do really want to spend some hit dice - my hidden short rest resource :P
Could still be nice to have a rogue there, Rogue thief maybe? They can use items as a bonus action. Would also work really well with having so many pals there who are good in melee, so lots of sneak attack potential.
@@sovelis7727 I don’t like the other things the Genie Warlock brings to the table. If you play a game where short rests are threatened and shifting them from an hour to 10 minutes is vital then yes, it’s worth it. Otherwise I like the blaster-healer mix from the two patrons in the mix. Genie as a possible fifth would be a good call though.
Monty, when you said that part about your party all being elves, they really formed themselves in a meaningful way in my imagination. I think it perfectly illustrates the conceptual and realistic approach to roleplay that you bring to the table. The world's you have built in drakenheim are as good as any other fantasy book or movie. And Kelly is great too obviously ❤️
One of my favorite two-person party is a Paladin and Artificer. Those two can have wicked saves and really fun combos. Both are tanks that can beat shite up. Monty actually reminded me that a moon Druid makes another really solid addition to that. I had a friend who played moon and he cast spells just as often as wild shaping. I actually like Monty’s party a lot, since it gives each player their own plethora of options to do. Having more options, to me, makes a group more successful. His party could be a rad group of Pallid Elves.
One of my current parties was a little weak on the frontline and the Grave Cleric wanted to concentrate more on her spells, so we added an Armorer Artificer to buddy up with the Vengeance Paladin. Boy, did we overcompensate.
I agree with Monty that his party fits better thematically. They're all sort of dark-mystical types, and could all fit neatly into a certain dark fantasy setting, where I see Kelly's party requiring a bit more roleplaying for the characters to get along, or an in-story explanation for how they mesh into their world. On that note, Monty's 5th should absolutely be a Gloomstalker.
I feel like every single one of the players could have some form of dark "edgyness" to them. I feel like with the right group of players a group of slight edgelords could be fun
Kelly's party is like the different sides of Batman's and Daredevil's personalities. They're obsessed with justice, but they have multiple ways of achieving it. The Divination Wizard is Batman's contingency planner / detective side. The Eloquence Bard is Daredevil's lawyer side. The Vengeance Paladin and Gloom Stalker are the brooding vigilante parts of both heroes' personalities. There's always a give and take: "We'll try things your way when it makes sense, but when that approach isn't the obvious one, you let me do my thing."
I really like Kelly's group, they seem to really be well-rounded and fill their roles well. Monty's group is like a fun theory-craft for spellcasting synergy, but really has some glaring holes, I think. No dexterity or strength-based classes means that you're likely not going to be stealthy, not going to win initiative, and are pretty vulnerable to dexterity saving throw spells. Not to mention the fact that as soon as your DM sees the party composition, you can bet that the BBEG is going to utilize an anti-magic cone and nullify many of your party's abilities. Sure, it MIGHT be awesome IF everything goes to plan, but I think that the whole party relying on intelligence, wisdom and charisma leaves a LOT of room for their strength, dexterity, and constitution to be exploited.
I agree, being a DM for a life cleric, a moon druid, a lore bard and a arcane trickster and going from 1-20 I can say that party is really powerful. We had a hole in damage dealing for a long time… but that party can solve anything. Kelly and Monty both do a great job of creating of talking about teamwork, that’s so important. I have run parties where everyone wants to be a wizard, or sorcerer and those parties may do a good job of optimizing a single player’s capabilities at level 20, but they will never survive because they all want to do the same thing. The reason Kelly’s list is so great is because the potential for teamwork is so great! Everyone is going to have tons of fun at that table! Lots of people say it would be hard to DM, I disagree, it would be awesome! This is because the party wouldn’t have a glaring “hole” that always creeps up to make some aspect of the game unfun and overly challenging. Everyone gets to shine. It’s great! There are many great parties, and you can get anything to work, my observation is that players tend to take it out on you as the DM if they don’t have the tools to succeed. So it’s just better if they have a good session zero and talk about how they can work together as a team and all the different situations and how they will solve them. That’s a great way to make an amazing group that plays together for years
Bladesingers practically require a high dex score. If you're a hexblade, you're doing it wrong if you don't have at least a 14 in dex for the medium armor AC bonus. That's at least 2 mid/high dex builds in a 4 man party. How much dex do you really need?
@@whodis5444 How about strength or con? Even with 2 dex builds, the better part of your party is susceptible to fireballs and meteor swarms. In reality, either way would bea fun game, and not every party needs to be able to meet every challenge imaginable. It just depends on your campaign. I also just really love barbarian, and I think they get unfair treatment.
I disagree. Moon druid is the most stealthy class. Ignoring that it can assume highly stealthy forms, it can assume forms which even if seen will be ignored. (Rats, cats, spiders) It also gains flying forms. You also have a bladesinger, which is clearly a dex build. Plus access to invisibility and pass without trade. Enemy spellcasters aren't that common, but Monty has so many spellcasters with access to counterspell, absorb elements, and protection spells... I wouldn't be worried about it. And I see it as the opposite of 'according to plan'. I think Kelly's team relies too much on set roles. If that paladin doesn't block, the bard, ranger, and wizard are probably wasting rounds trying get of the soup. IMO, the biggest TPKs are when you make a mistake and get in the soup. With Monty's party, you have three classes probably fine in ranged, melee, healing, crowd control, area of effect damage, etc. and can switch on a dime. As a DM, I would find it hard to surprise or use a common tactic against Monty's which I know would get them in the soup, while Kelly's had an obvious issue -- anything which gets around that paladin causes issues. Surprise, hold spells, no armor, just walk around him, etc. and just swarming the rest. Sure, anti-magic cones, but that is rear and at high levels, presumably they get countered if someone tries it. IMO, Monty's is more flexible and I'd rather take a 75% solution which works 95% of the time, vs. a 95% solution which works 75% of the time. Yes, it might take an extra few rounds or resources to get through a typical encounter, but for a non-typical encounter which Monty is really well prepared for. His party is just so flexible. Finally, I'll add that Monty's party has better summoning (druid), healing (druid and cleric) and high short rest potential (druid and warlock).
I am not worried about dex saves. They are mostly for damage effects, the moon druid has about infinite minus 1 HP, and the twilight cleric CD will patch anyone up. The bladesinger will have a naturally high dexterity, and if its elemental damage (fireball), absorb elements will more than save it. I somewhat agree about anti magic cone, at the very least it will shut down cleric CD and maybe 1 other PC. The hexblade can always default to armored up pew pew from 2 rooms over with greatreach blast, and the other 2 melees would rarely be not on the opposite sides of the boss (I am suggesting flanking [I hate it], but they would have 0 reason to group up).
pretty sure montys would kick ass tbh a party of 4 lvl 20 fullcasters vs a party of 2 half casters 1 full caster and a ranger will just be kind not have enough dpt
I think whatever the strongest party is, it needs a Paladin of some kind. The Paladin auras are simply too beneficial. Otherwise you risk having that one saving throw that nobody in the party is proficient in.
I agree and disagree. Having a paladin definitely raises the party floor due to survivability, but having another caster raises the party ceiling in terms of raw power.
Love this. Treantmonk’s Temple and d4: D&D Deep Dive should also answer this question and then you 4 should play a campaign with the party! The collaboration one shot was great. We want more!
As someone currently playing a Gloomstalker Ranger - was glad to be included and get an honorable mention. LOL - I'm really having fun playing this class and really enjoyed the composition of both of your parties. I'm still a beginner/intermediate player, but I love coming here for knowledge and insight into DND.
A few year ago, we made an actual party of: Dwarf- forge domain cleric Gnome - Divination wizard Human - Vengeance paladin Half Elf - Lore Bard This was not "planned" but ir resulted to be RIDICULOUSLY OP.
we ended the campaign and drop that group at lvl 6 after defeating a Beholder. And killing a Beholder with 4 character group at lvl 6 shows how OP it is :P
@@rcschmidt668 it was fun. But it becomed really challenging for the dm to create encounters that challwnge us but not tpk ... Because against creatures that had a changñce against us we where totaly unprepared. Like initiative becomed really the most important roll. On the other had against enemies we could prepare. They had almost no chance. But if we were caught unprepared the battle would be very short and we die...
Strongest party? Literally any combination that actually communicates and works together. Our 6 player group is currently running an all bards campaign and we have all specialized in different colleges. Party is currently level 8, been playing since level 1.
@@travisterry2200 there is indeed a variety of instruments - we are a traveling group battling other bards in the Great Battle of the Bands. We have of course found ourselves in all kinds of non musical situations and shenanigans that we've had to escape. At present we are traveling to the next major city but have been trapped in a mountain pass by magically induced unseasonal weather that we are working to undo...with the power of music and violence
@@travisterry2200 not gonna lie, we've had some very good and very poor uses of shatter in this campaign. I stopped using it all together once I started getting better spells (I play a Lore Bard with the spell sniper feat. It's all fireballs, conjure animals, and eldritch blasts for me)
@@mechagamera2517 Communication and tactics are very powerful. They can turn some really tough encounters trivial. And not using them can turn some trivial encounters very powerful. As a DM I've had to adjust for both before. Definitely harder to adjust for the party that talks and gets used to understanding what they can do and quickly throwing together basic plans that might actually survive the first round than it is to tone things down for a bunch of uncommunicative "one man armies".
You should both design 3 challenges in secret and a party that can swiftly beat these challanges. Then you get together and see which party is equipped to deal with the other 3 challenge you didn't know beforehand. That'd be really cool. Like "take a gateway during a battle." Or "steal this scroll and replace it with a fake" or whatever.
Monty's list made me laugh and smirk. One, I play a Twilight Cleric, and play with a Moon Druid in a Rhime of the Frost Maiden Campaign. And two, I play with a Bladesinger in a super challenging but rewarding homebrew campaign. And I can agree from first hand experience that these 3 are extremely powerful. In my case as a Twilight cleric, I've been keeping the party alive and out of trouble with my eyes of night and channel divinity. Not to mention guiding bolt is just nuts. Cant wait to get Leomund's Tiny Hut.....
I really like Kelly's party, thought for sure he would win..... Then I saw Monty's party. That is a party I don't want to meet in a dark alley. I will definitely have to look at twilight cleric again. ;)
I like that Kelly's group has a little niche for each character but they're flexible enough to help each other out outside their area of expertise. Then Monty's party is just aggressive af, but also flexible if you somehow can't just beatdown everything with ease.
I like the idea of the twilight cleric, shepherd druid combo. Twilight clerics scale amazingly with the number of allies since they can just pump out temp hp at the end of every ally turn and the shepherd is probably the best at just flooding the battlefield with creatures. It'd be nightmarish to execute at a table, with the number of creatures and extra rolls.
@@Dezbood I'd say it and Spores are the druid gish subclasses. Moon can switch from support caster to tank as needed. Sure, turning into a Mammoth isn't a classic "sword and sorcery" gish, but hey, who am I to argue with tusks?
The great thing for Monty's party idea is that you can pick any individual character from it and seriously beef up any party. You don't need your party to be on board with this optimization concept, you can help massively by yourself. And if you don't pick Moon druid then at least one other players is likely to, so you may have 2 from this list.
Lets try this though experiment :) I would want to get a rune knight in - the cloud rune is an amazing defensive maneuvre, only once per short rest yes, but not only does it completely negate any attack, even a crit, but it turns it against the enemies as well. Fire rune can also keep enemies at your side, and just look at how much of an area you can cover with giant might and PAM + Sentinel, not much is able to pass around you. On top of that we have the really solid fighter damage - PAM + GWM (yes this is feat heavy, but if somebody can afford it, it is a human fighter) and a little bit of extra giant might damage as a cherry on top -> and ulitimatly cloud and fire rune protect the party and also deal some extra damage as well. And PAM + Sentinel + the size should weaponize the reaction insanely well, giving more damage on top. To me personally being "sticky" as a front liner is the most important aspect, don't let the enemies just ignore you and I think a rune knight is excellent at it, while dealing solid damage (beat down) and especially once we reach storm rune they are a great support character, giving advantage to allies for critical saves or disadvantage on enemies further buffing the effectiveness of the spellcasters. sorry for the lengthy intro :P I just looove rune knights. I guess it is hard to get around a Gloomstalker (I'll try to avoid the all full spellcaster party ;) ) ranger, since they fill so many roles as well, adding a great explorer bringing other roles to the table as well. So to really go hard on control/support/utility we certainly want a wizard or sorcerer (clockwork soul). I'll actually go with the sorcerer, since twinning haste is so effective - hasteing our gloomstalker and fighter. Probably picking up ritual caster at some point to get a familiar and detect magic for more utility and some "investigating". And of course we add a CHA class naturally, who can also subtle spell to cast in social situations, so it might be one of the best negotiator. I think we already covered all roles - some multiple times, but since we still have a spot free we probably just add anther full spell caster, honestly it could be any... bard, cleric, wizard, druid, etc. I want to say wizard, but honestly a Twilight cleric is just sooooo strong, so they might just be the right choise.
We play what we feel! Somehow my group has a stat we all dump stat, this time it’s charisma! Last time it was intelligence... Honestly the whole thing is hilarious!
@@Livid72Des GM: How can three adventurers at level 5 not have a neutral or positive charisma score between them?! The Party: They’re- The Point-Buy Economy is in shambles!
oh my god, I just realize that I'm DMing for Monty's super OP party for my home game. Well almost. the Moon Druid has a single level dip in Arcana domain, the Bladesinger has more levels in rogue, the Hexblade is a Sorlock and the twilight cleric has a single level dip in sorcerer so he can cast shield. But at its core, its remarkably similar. And probably the reason I'm struggling to challenge them.
Yeah, that sounds like a rough time. I'd definitely start giving a handful of enemies Mage Slayer and/or Sentinel. Occasionally using counterspell or dispel magic might be good too (i usually only start doing this if my players start using counterspell as only one of yours can do this i might make an exception since there are so many spellcasters). Creatures that turn invisible or can use the ethereal plane can be a challenge too and will give your Twilight Cleric something unique to feel awesome about with see invisibility.
throw something with high initiative that hits hard at them and it will crush them as moon druids are off tanks. i play in a lot of optimised one shots in a optimised west march and would never run this party comp as when the opponent gets the initiative shit could hit the fan so quickly. the party has no probing ability
Confession: I've not played 5e yet. But Kelly's team has better coverage of possible events. Like being dropped into a vast area of anti-magic or warped magic fields, Kelly's team wouldn't be useless or defenseless.
For Kelly's Picks: It's interesting that you picked Divination over Chronurgy, I've always been under the impression that Chronurgist is stronger because it works nearly as well for the dice control while also giving higher Initiative bonus, helping the Wizard escape unfavorable circumstances at the start of combat.
I had a Twilight Cleric on a table with a Gloomstalker Ranger too, they worked amazingly together. We even had a Vengeance Paladin too. God I miss that campaign.
Played a gloomstalker ranger/ twilight cleric 11th lvl total for a one shot. Used healing to bring the other two characters back to their feet three times while doing most of the damage and getting hit once myself. that party would be awesome.
My first thought watching this "Wow, either of these parties is gonna frustrate a DM." My immediate second thought as a DM knowing my players watch this channel too "Awww shit."
I know how, it just feels like a deliberate punishment to them if I were to do so. And yes I've done the mirror enemy party strat before. My initial comment was more of an "oh God, possible trouble" vs "I can't deal with this"
@@dragonking184 Nothing really does. You don't even need to necessarily set them against each other. Though through a twist of irony. These two opposing groups are well designed to foil each other. That's just one way to challenge either group.
Love the experiment! the lvl 1-20 specification makes me think that I'd like characters who "come online" on a staggered schedule so at any given level someone is overpowered. I'm also conceptualising this as a team full of mostly "support" characters who mutually support each other. Armorer Artificer (assuming you're using the Xanathar's rules for artisan's tools) Peace domain cleric Gloomstalker ranger Genie pact warlock
Kelly is the group I expected, Monty’s group speaks to my soul! I currently play a bladesinger and a twilight cleric. Really enjoyed this video!! Synergy is incredible.
I don't know about 4 player parties, but for 2 players I suggest Oath of Ancients paladin, Moon druid. From a pure RP perspective it's great because both of you care about nature and stuff, but it's also great in terms of game mechanics: both can tank, heal and deal damage while bringing great utility with spellcasting and wildshape. The paladin covers charisma checks while the druid does perception and insight. Best of all, the paladin can take the mounted combatant feat and the druid can wild shape into a bear... so bear cavalry! They both get huge benefits from the feat, and this way the druid is always in range of the paladin's auras making the team highly resistant to spellcasters in addition to their general durability and healing. If you add a third party member, an arcane trickster is a fantastic asset that can fill whatever roles the other two can't.
Monty’s picks are relatively close to my party. Except for a War Cleric and a Necromancer Wizard. It’s absolutely unreal how much they can do. Also in an innately high magic campaign.
You guys are amazing! I’ve learned so much watching your videos. Keep up the excellent content. Party Composition: (Masters of Time) - Chronurgy Wizard - Twilight Cleric - Echo Knight Fighter - Clockwork Soul Sorcerer
I dig it! It wouldn't be surprising to see this exact party working for the Kryn Dynasty-with easy flavor tweaking to make the Luxon the source of the sorcerer's powers. You got your INT, WIS, and CHA checks covered, and for the front lines you've got a heavily armored/armed cleric backing up a fighter who can occupy multiple spaces and teleport to fight fires. For exploration you have great darkvision and the 3rd-level fighter being able to teleport 30 feet in any direction every other turn, and for that extra bit of help the party should pick up Guidance and Enhance Ability, which are easily probability-flavored. If you do stumble into more things than stealthier parties, you make up for it with initiative bonuses and re-rolling some bad rolls.
the beauty of D&D is that experimenting and theorycrafting at both the highest meta-game level AND the lowest are super fun. I'd just as soon take this crazy bonkers optimized party into a campaign as say, a party full of Bards who are a rock band or something. Or a party where the tankiest player is a Fiend Warlock, etc
A party of spellcasters can easily defeat a beholder, I've seen it happen numerous times since the antimagic cone can only face 1 direction at a time, and the eye rays themselves are magical, thus a Beholder cannot target characters in the area of its own antimagic cone. It's also unable to target invisible creatures with its eye rays, so my party simply casts Greater Invisibility on themselves and wins handedly.
Yeah, you guys forgot that beholders always have a well thought out contingency plan, and they are aware of their own weaknesses. Arguably the most dangerous thing about them.
@@2Cool2Geek usually why running either a Wizard or a Bard with high int is necessary for any underdark trip. They thankfully cannot resist their own effects and bards specialize in psychic attacks with spells.
My issue with monty’s party is initiative could make or break an encounter at high levels. If a high level spell caster or dragon beats their initiative and drops some large AOE spells, the dex saves are gonna screw them. I think the most under appreciated thing about Paladins is the aura buffs to saves for those big spells to help your allies not get completely obliterated.
I don't ever see this being an issue, though. This party combination is especially sneaky and with the Twilight Cleric and druid they have a pretty good passive perception. In most combats, they will be the ones who will surprise the enemy. They also should win initiative most of the time with the bladesinger. Hexblades usually have a decent dex as well. You are also forgetting about the Twilight Cleric's Vigilant Blessing ability that gives advantage on Initiative rolls. An additional thing to note is that even if you have not had a turn yet, you can still use a reaction as long as you are not surprised. So the bladesinger can still counterspell. And unless a spell, instakills the druid, they are just going to wildshape into a tank. At high levels of play, the Twilight Clerics aura is going to give a +2 to Dexterity saves as well. Kelly's picks have several issues and weaknesses. The paladins aura only affects 10 ft. If the wizard or bard is within 10 ft. of the front line, they are way too close. The vengeance paladins channel divinity only affects one creature, as well, and can easily fall short. This team doesn't have the same synergy as Monty's does with its insane stealth and high AC. The gloomstalker works against the party composition, in a way. If an enemy cannot target the ranger, they will go after the squishy bard or wizard. Kelly's party only has 1 tank. His party has pretty low AC and HP, and cannot come close to the damage output of Monty's by a long shot.
@@danielwitmer3655 I completely disagree with the damage part of your comment. Vengence pala can easily afford to go GWM, gloomstalker can melt things with sharpshooter. It should be monty who has worse damage. The hexblade can go critfishing GWM or hexblasting, but not both at the same time. Bladesinger melee drops off harshly, and moon druid scaling is all over the place. His most reliable damage source is the cleric's spirit guardians They win by attrition, under twilight CD, never dying.
Our Redemption Paladin has literally kept us all alive with his aura up to ninth level. Which we know for a fact since last week he was too sick to show up and we had a TPK!
I heard for a two player party that a druid and a barbarian would be virtually unstoppable, presumably the utility and magic is covered, druids seem to have a little of everything and like you said even with the ability to become a bear or something would be very dangerous to any enemies, I believe this party of two is mostly suited to combat, however the fact they are both traditionally nomadic characters would be fun to play with as character dynamics.
What's funny is everyone has the obsession with the bear, but it's arguably one of the weaker forms (not EXTRMELY weak, and still a solid pick, but there are so many better options lol).
It's evidently a party of 4 clerics, a war cleric for the frontline, a light/storm cleric for the DPS, a trickery domain cleric for the subterfuge, and a grave/life cleric for support and healing
My only problem is that war cleric looks pretty meh in terms of damage compared the best frontliners. As a tank and for utility I think forge domain is better.
@@lagg1e he is very powerful in lvls 1-5, competing with the fighter, he falls off in terms of damage per round later, but he is still a cleric and can change to a support/caster frontliner, which is still pretty powerful
Hey Dungeon Dudes! I was wondering if you would be interesting in doing a video on how to make specific races/classes that are known for being pretty bad actually viable. I think it would be a really interesting video! For example, I want to do a campaign with an Air Genasi storm sorcerer, which both seem to be considered very week. Obviously there will always be better alternatives, but I bet you two could make a great video on how to make some very week classes/races actually viable, and it would be interesting!
My advice would be to talk to the DM and party. Because this isn't necessarily an issue of fixing a class/race it's fitting them in the right campaign. Not everyone wants to play a super optimised game. The big numbers can be fun, don't get me wrong, but a game doesn't need them to be fun. I've seen people have a lot of fun with unoptimised or even 'bad' races and classes. Off the top of my head I can think of a halfling barbarian, a halfling paladin, a warlock who didn't take eldritch blast and an air genasi ranger. All the players had fun even if the builds weren't as effective as they could have been. I would say talk to the group. Get a DM who is comfortable running a homebrew campaign (a lot of the modules can be punishing in early levels.) And just make sure that everyone's comfortable playing at a simpliar level. Because this stuff only seems to play badly when there's min-maxing players in the group (making the lower numbers from an unoptimised char feel like more of a problem) or a DM who wants a difficulty curve the PCs can't keep up with. Because what's viable always depends on the table. And sure other sorcerer subclasses will be stronger. A wizard will be more versatile. A different tiefling would get bigger numbers as a sorc. But that doesn't mean these weaker combinations can't be fun. Especially if they add something to the story. May be a campaign aimed at going to the elemental planes? Or a quest that involves the being who gifted this sorcerer with their powers? All of which is a long winded way of saying I'd welcome this sort of character at my table if that was what my players wanted. I'm sure a lot of DMs feel the same.
The Eloquence Bard is super potent as a buffer due to how inspiration works for them. If you add a Phantom Rogue you've generated one of the most potent parties in the game. If the Paladin is a Dex build, you're in stealth world with that party.
Just a quick reminder: If you are playing Solasta: Crown of the Magister, your party will be a Paladin, Cleric, Rogue and Wizard/ranger mix. As far as rogue goes, it will be better off with a arcane trickster. The rest is up to you, but a war cleric will be a must for that sweet capability of using a shield while casting. The Paladin cant, so he must go zweihander.
I like Monty's team the most, due to the fact that each one is so powerful on their own. Yet they are all complimentary with each other as well, like how 3/4 of the team can switch off using healing spells. Not to mention Rangers tend to not be all that powerful, and I fail to see the advantages, that couldn't be replaced by some other class. Then again I'm the person who likes bolder flavors rather than more subtle ones, so *Shrugs*
1) twilight cleric pops twilight sanctuary to give whole team temp hp (level + 1d6) 2) peace cleric uses emboldening bond to control who takes attacks, forcing monsters to only attack players with temp hp. The whole team is essentially immortal.
@@M0ebius My party currently has a twilight cleric and a shepard druid (me) and I can confirm that a pack of 8 raptors with multiattack pack tactics and regening temp hp is good.
You can dominate most normal difficulty tables with just Chronurgist Wizard + Twilight Cleric. The Fighter really just needs to do single target damage, so probably Battlemaster with Xbow Expert+Sharp Shooter, or Echo Knight with Sentinel + Great Weapon Master. And the best Rogue is probably Arcane Trickster.
Me, too! There's a lot of stuff to consider. When I started my group, we went right out of the basic Player's Handbook, so none of the fancy stuff. I figured, "Every party needs a rogue and every party needs a cleric." But, one person wanted to play a bard, and with the Urchin background, and choosing the skills, they practically are a rogue, at least for the "every party needs someone to open doors and bypass traps" bit. And the bard is a secondary healer, and utility! OMG, the utility! Plus, has access to Counterspell. And of course, the Bard is a natural face for the party, and great for negotiation. I always have, and always will love wizards, especially with their ability to collect spells as they go. Find a scroll? Give it to the wizard! But there are different spell lists to consider. And a lot of people complain that "a human fighter is too darned basic. So boring." But seriously, Fighters in PHB have some wonderful options! And it is really good to have a tank, you know? And you can have someone who isn't so smart, but follows orders well, or you can have the smart fighter who's all about tactics and strategy. Warrior versus soldier? There are a LOT of things to do with a fighter. And clerics. It's not just about healing. You could stock up on potions, and forego the cleric, if it were just about healing. Have you SEEN their spell list? And then you get into the different types of cleric. Trickery is AWESOME! You need some infiltration? Trickery! Not bad for exploration and negotiation, either. And you can face any undead with good cheer. So, yeah. The basic, classic is a good one, and it's classic for a reason, but I think our rogue-less group, with an urchin bard, will do just fine.
There’s only 1 thing I would change about Monty’s team, I think that a Necromancer wizard would work tremendously better than a blade singer as you already have 3 front liners with the twilight cleric, moon Druid, and hex blade, however with the necromancer you could have an incredible back line of skeleton archers but also each of those skeletons is receiving temporary hp also from the cleric making truly tanky undead. This could also be used on zombies to surround and grapple an enemy. It also clears the worry of grouping up undead as they won’t all die from 1 aoe attack.
You guys should do a “tiered” party where you build a 4-5 player party, but 1 player at a time, where the first player you choose could be played as a solo game. And with the 2nd choice, you’ve got a 2 player game using the 1st player. Etc up to 4-5 players. So you’re trying to keep the party balanced from the first choice through the last as you build up the party from 1 to 5 players. This may also help DMs to have a stock party that they can dole out PCs to people on a whim depending on how large the party is.
Well now I wanna see you guys breakdown 4 awful classes together for a party. And see if any of them can benefit off one another. That’s where the real math is needed.
Seconded! Let's see if you can take four of the F classes you've critiqued, and combine them in such a way that it actually works. Because synergy IS a thing.
They could make a movie out of that where the band of plucky misfits works hard to earn respect in the heroes guild, where the other parties are all existing of the best (sub)class combinations.
Now there are the infamous 3. Unrevised Beastmaster Ranger, Way of the 4 Elements Monk, Banneret/Purple Dragon Knight Fighter. I can't think of a 4th class though that isn't going to be better in a remarkable way or better at everything at once. You could add a Berserker Barbarian that uses Frenzy a lot, but the party would become better at combat. The only other non-spellcaster would be a rogue, but it would round out the social capability of the party. You could just lean into one guy overshadowing the whole party and have a Paladin with medium con but high str and cha. Upstage them completely with vengeance or redemption subclass. Redemption gives battlefield control magic and bonus on persuasion without missing out on combat power. Vengeance gives teleportation and really excels at combat. Using blessed warrior fighting style to get the guidance and another cleric cantrip cleric for problem solving, along with a utility kit of spells. You only need divine smite to turn any spell slot into damage but you get the benefit of find steed(permanent intelligent pet dog or combat warhorse), dispel magic, locate object(find anything or turn anything into a tracking device), zone of truth and many many more. Every single of the 3 other characters will envy the paladin.
@@lagg1e I'd make the fourth one a storm sorcerer, a regular human, not variant human so for that one the race would be pretty bad. Has the sorcerer's limited spell list and the subclass does little for it, being the only full caster means they have to have utility use which other casters are better at. For the other three I'd make them all races that don't give useful ability bonuses.
Glad to hear about the book coming out, I just started watching the Dungeons of Drakkenheim last week even though you guys inspired me since two years with your tips already :)
If I had to do one using the other classes they didn't use, I'd do Eldritch Knight, Divine Soul Sorcerer, Ancestral Guardian Barbarian & Artillerist Artificer.
@@SuperYoshikong Or you could just dip one level in Cleric like almost everyone does to get that sweet armor and shield proficiencies and have access to all healing spells anyway.
I like Monty’s party a lot, but with all of those frontline characters, a paladin for the aura would be nice (since they would probably be stacked up on each other). Later when it extends to 30 ft not as big of a deal but still nice. Also sentinel on the pally would be nice too. I’d probably swap out the hexblade for a pally in his group.
I expanded on your theme and idea but I did it as a 5 player party and added race and background to each. I believe this is the most fun party. Gives The DM a great challenge and the party all synergies with each other able to help each other and fill different roles when needed. This would set up for an awesome adventure and party. Each are an elf of a different subrace. It makes party dynamics more interesting in a role play perspective. 1. Shadowfell Elf Twilight Cleric with the acolyte background. The Cornerstone of the party. 2. Drow Bladesinger Wizard with the entertainer background. The infiltrator, frontliner and support. 3. Wood Elf Moon Druid with the outlander background. The explorer, tank and frontliner. 4. Moon Elf Hex Blade Warlock with the noble background. The face of the party and a frontliner. 5. Half Elf Vengeance Paladin with the haunted one background. The Tank, The DPS and The Negotiator.
Could be a short series with a rotating cast between Drakkenheim seasons. A series where the two parties are racing each other to accomplish a goal. Then we can see which party fares the best.
Kelly's party is chef's kiss perfect for Dungeons of Drakkenheim. Just absolutely perfect. Monty's party also is... if you want to blow up Drakkenheim.
