What it takes to run a sub-3hr Marathon | The Numbers and The Workouts 

Do you think that thinking about running a sub 3 hour marathon is pointless before running a sub 40 minute 10k?

@@SuperYtc1 I think the video is pretty straightforward here. Ofc there is exceptions from the rule but usually you won’t be able to run 4:15 per k for 3h when you have a threshold pace worse than 4:00 per k. The gap between your treshold and your marathon pace is just not big enough.

Glad it was helpful!

Big improvement! Keep those long runs up over a summer, and you’ll make good progress.

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Thanks. 🙏 appreciate the feedback.

Hey, that's an impressive time for a young fella! Good luck 👍

I'm doing that on my new videos. I didn't have the time last year. Thanks for the feedback, though.

Nice work. With a good training block and a solid pacing strategy, you should get there 🏃💨

Glad it was helpful. 👍

that's awesome.. that's a super solid half. What was your progression to the 1:25? training for months/years? I'm 49.. also looking at a run at sub 3 hour.. maybe in a year or so after I turn 50.. I'm not ready yet. I run a half every weekend at usually around 1:43, a pretty comfortable pace, maybe potentially 1:35 at best if I was racing. I run 3 other times a week usually 7-10 miles each usually at a comfortable 7:45'ish pace. I'm gonna start incorporating some of what the Dr here mentioned to start progressing. Just wondering how long progression can take or at least how others have progressed.

Glad you liked it!

Great insights. I also enjoy racing as a fun way to get quality training.

Nice work, James! Stoked you got under 3 hrs. You're right, though. You can watch all the RU-vid videos and read all the books, but it takes a lot of consistent training to get the result.

Glad you think so!

Sub 3 🙌. Congratulations 🎉. I just had a client go 3:00:12, so it can easily go either way. Glad I'm not the Kiwi to ruin your streak.

Hey, thanks for sharing. That's awesome! You got well under too.👏👏

All the best! From what I've seen over the years, 50 miles/wk is a typical sweet spot for a lot for runners attempting sub 3.

Glad it was helpful!

Thanks!

I can't imagine running that fast in 30 years 🤯. Good effort!

You've got the goods for a sub 3. All the best with the 1:26. See you on the next video 🫡

​@@drwilloconnorcurious about the marathon tempo workout.. I normally train for half marathon and do threshold workouts with intervals of 4-10min with a walk or jog recovery. The other workout of the week is normally intervals of reps ranging between 200m-1km. Training for the half the threshold sessions will be targeting around my half marathon effort but am I wasting a workout doing the speed? And would the marathon tempo of 30min+ be more beneficial for fitness and maybe adding on some extra strides only easy runs for "speed". After listening a lot of your stuff my guess is speed isn't my limiting factor as I can do 200m reps comfortably 3:00-3:10/km and faster. Which I'm guessing I need to improve my fitness to extend that speed for longer?

If the 200m reps are specifically for "speed" then I don't think you need them. However, if the 200m reps are added to a session specifically to fatigue you before a hard threshold effort, or to empty the tank after a threshold effort then I think they're fine. Whether you'd be better off with a 20-30min tempo is hard to say.

Best of luck! Looks like it could be cold and wet.

@@drwilloconnor just missed out on the sub 3. Achieved a 3:03:42 which is great! I will go again and 100% get it next time.

🤙

Thanks, mate. All the best with sub3 🏃💨

160km/wk wow! No doubt your approach works. But very few guys can handle that kind of mileage consistently, even at an easy pace. You're obviously a special breed to be smashing out those Kms at 60 🤯

Damn! Amazing job! How did you recover and what your weekly run days were? Thats craazy mileage. Respect 🙏

Great info ! I am 55 and running around 130- 160km/ week easy as well...thx. for the hope..😊( from hot Beirut).

That is a lower mileage than I would usually recommend. Typical is 60 - 80km (50 miles). A couple of changes I would trial would be the length and intensity of your long run and a negative split pacing strategy. So, going through half at 1:31-1:32 to conserve the speed you clearly have for where you're the weakest, the backend.

Didn't you say that mileage didn't matter in the video?

Nice work! Hopefully, I can help you to develop your own method!

@@drwilloconnor Definitely! 🙏 💯 👍

That gives me a good idea for a video - how to plan your training week. Alternating weekly long runs, hard - easy, is a good idea. I've found that to be better for consistency compared to building every week. At least in the early weeks of marathon training. You would want at least 48hrs separation in the workouts. In saying that, I did a block of training where I did my long run on Wednesday, and then did a double quality day on Saturday. I did threshold AM and Tempo PM. It was super effective. I was getting around 40km of high-quality training within one day. Friday was chill and Sunday was a day off. More time for the family!

​@@drwilloconnor that certainly is a very family friendly plan you were doing. Smart doing the double session on the same day as the body has only had 10hrs or so to start the recovery process. Utilising a Parkrun could also be very clever for a 3 x 6min @lt2 threshold pace with a 2min float plus another 2 Intervals after the finish line then run back after for a social coffee haha.

Wow, 16 seconds! That's 👌. It takes guts to follow HR over pace in a race scenario. Often, you end up running slightly slower than you think you "should", which is mentally challenging to handle.

Yep. If you improve your aerobic base by running a block in Zone 1-2, your pace in Zones 1 - 4 will improve too. Zones 5+ will probably still require a bit of speed work.

All the best with the return to training. I hope you can back to some consistent miles. I've got an injury at the moment, which is super frustrating.

@@drwilloconnor sorry to hear that man. Nothing is worse than wanting to run but not being physically able to. I just swim more to try and make up for it 😂

No harm in trying 🤷‍♂️

Hey James, Thanks for your question! Personally, I never use maxHR to set training zones, because I believe it over estimates people's anaerobic threshold. In theory, it works, but in practice, using maxHR ignores your aerobic capacity. In this podcast, I outline how there are two important thresholds to running a successful marathon. It sounds like you have been neglecting your aerobic threhsold because your training zones are set so high (IMO). In regards to your high HR during your half marathon, the humdity would have definitely played a part due to you losing a lot of fluid and needing to increase your HR to match cardiac output (see my maxHR episode). In my Reigntie Your Running course, I outline how you can effectively set your zones, plan your race (HR, pace & power), and review your training. Next intake is late Nov. Keep an eye out!

Hey mate, I’d need a lot more background info to answer that question for you. On the surface, shaving 18min off your Tokyo time is a big ask.

Pretty sure, that's what he meant

It'll be close! You'll need to have your pacing and nutrition super dialled in. Start easy, finish fast!

I ran a 3:29:36 last year. My paces in the 18 week training period leading up to it were those: Aerobic threshold: progressing from 8:20-8:30 m/m (5:12-5:20 min/km) at the beginning to about 8:00 m/m (4:58 min/km) at the end, goal marathon pace achieved Anaerobic threshold: from 7:45-7:50 m/m (4:49-4:52 min/km) to about 7:25-7:30 m/m (4:36-4:39 min/km) I always ran my workouts to current fitness, not my goal fitness, and adjusted them as I progressed through the 18 week programme. I ran a 1:41:30 half marathon (7:45 pace) before I started the training block. If you can run a half in around 1:35 right now, I think you have the capacity to get your sub 3:30. In week 10, I ran a half marathon as a time trial in 1:45:47 and stayed well under my Anaerobic Threshold. That was the confidence building workout that told me that running around 8:00 m/m was now easier than before the training block and I had a good shot at running the entire marathon at that pace 8 weeks later. During the training block, I also raced a 10k under 45 min. It's either that or a half in about 1:37-1:38 that shows me that I have the capacity. For men, it's better to be a bit faster over shorter distances, like a sub 44 10k and a sub 1:35 half because they tend to convert to slower marathon times. So take the paces above and go for 15 seconds faster per mile or 10 seconds faster per km. If you're already capable of running 1:35 in a half, your threshold is probably around 7:10-15 min/mi, 4:27-4:30 min/km. Also, make sure that your easy runs are truly easy (I'm running at around 9:30 m/m or just under 6 min/km) so that you're training your type 1 slow twitch muscle fibres. In the marathon, you want them to be able to burn fat so that a part of your fuelling comes from your fat reserves. A lot of runners tend to run the easy runs too fast so that they are always in the mixed zone which is more reliant on carbs. By focusing on training in Z2, you train your fat burning capabilities. I know that I have the glycogen storage capacity in my muscles and liver for about half of my caloric needs during a marathon and my stomach is able to digest about a quarter in carbs during the race. The remaining quarter of my caloric needs has to come from fat. Runners who haven't trained their fat burning capabilities are at a higher risk of bonking late in the race because they run out of glycogen storage and their stomach cannot keep up with the demands. Digestion slows down with race duration.

Did you finishi running your marathon? how did it go?

@@RunForFunFun Not yet, thanks for asking, I'm running the Amsterdam marathon in mid October. I'm a bit more confident about running it in sub-3 now. I ran a 1:24 HM last weekend in hot/humid weather, no taper and a tricky course. And done a few 36-38KM long runs with marathon pace segments which felt ok. But it still feels like jumping into the unknown. Are you planning to run a marathon?

Howd the run go mate?

​@@GummiGudna Really well thanks for asking! I got 2:56:57 which I'm delighted with overall. Was on track to sneak in just under 2:55, but I suffered cramp in both hamstrings just as I was gearing up for a sprint finish with 800m to go and I ended up static on a barrier trying to stretch them out, before finishing very gingerly. I need to sort out my fueling strategy as my 3rd gel made me very nauseous so I skipped the 4th, and I also must have knocked my electrolyte tabs out of my pockets before I could take them - probably would have saved me from cramping.

@@SuperFuzzyDunlop inspiring stuff!! Congrats mate! Just finished a 3:23:16 myself, got some work ahead of me to reach you. Keep it up!

Hey Jim, excellent work on the 3:08. I'm not sure lifting your weekly mileage is the answer. Often, it's pure consistency and year-on-year improvements that can make a big difference. All the best in Sydney!

@@drwilloconnor Thanks for the response and I appreciate the well wishes. I have had almost 5 years now of very, very consistent running, as in last year, I did not miss a single scheduled run or WO. I honestly just may be too slow in the end but I'm sure I will give it a few big swings before I just start coasting to 3:20's. LOL All the best!

Absolutely, you're spot on. For marathon training with less than 6 hours per week, you'll indeed need to up the intensity beyond 20%. Marathon-specific workouts might take up 30-40% of your weekly volume, adapting the 80/20 rule to fit your training needs. However, this shift in intensity (above 20%) applies mainly to the final 4-week intensive block of your marathon training. During this phase, adjust your other training to be less intense, ensuring a balanced approach. In the final phase, you might not do 30min of threshold running and instead do HIIT, which is far lower volume.

@@drwilloconnor Great, thanks a lot!

Ah yes, that's why it's best to let your workouts dicate your finish time. Don't let your finish time dictate your workouts. Keep an eye for my new video on that topic. Coming soon.

You might have to make some age-adjusted PR goals!

@@drwilloconnor I did crank out a 39:45 10K on a dirt track tonight. My dilemma now is- since I have a time I'm happy with (sub 3:12 last year), do I go for broke and start with the 3h pace group, with a very high probability that I'll blow up, or do the 'smart' conservative thing and start with 3:05 or 3:10 and aim to PR. I've seen a lot of people 'fail' using a pace group because they think it will drag them to a time they're not really capable of. I've always used pace groups to hold myself back in the first 15-20 miles. It's really a matter of which option (and result) will leave me with the least regret.

You'll never be disappointed with a strong finish and a PR. I'd go for the 3:05 group, which would give you a foot in both camps. If it's a bit much, you should only slow a little rather than completely blowing out like a sub 3hr attempt. If it works out, you could have a massive PR to be proud of.

@@drwilloconnor post mortem: I planned to go with the 3Hr pace group and give myself 5k to establish an effort/HR and promised myself I'd back off it if wasn't working. Of course in the moment promises are hard to keep :-) My intended range was 128-130 (my LT is about 138). This was CIM, so rolling hills for the first half, and while it would inch into the 134-136 going up, I could usually recover it on the way down. But I knew it was adding up. .By 10k I knew although I was feeling good, it wasn't sustainable. But I held on just to see how far I could go. By the 1/2 I had to face reality and back off and bring my HR back into Marathon zone. From then on I didn't look at my pace at all and just went by effort, occasionally checking my HR. My quads started to tighten at about 25km. In retrospect I wasn't keeping up with my hydration/electrolytes. Not bad, but not to my plan and not enough. I think that was a small contribution though. I did manage to mostly hold it together for a PR of 3:05:14, which I am happy with. I had been saying although I wanted to shoot for 3, I thought 3:05-3:10 was realistic. I probably could have shaved a minute or 2 if I had started with the 3:05, but this way I also don't wonder what-if. Not sure about next year- I'm still thinking an 80% age grade might be a better "attainable but certainly not guarantied" goal.

Hey, sorry, not sure I understand the question. If you're asking about when you should be achieving those times, I would want you to be capable of hitting those times between 3 - 9 months out of your marathon. You're within the ballpark, but it's a big ask to go from 1:28 as your best effort to doing two of those in a row.

@@drwilloconnor, Hay..Now, I didn't really understand the last part of your answer :D It doesn't matter. Anyway, I'm currently capable of running a 1:28 half marathon. My PR is 1:24, which I will try to achieve again in two months. I have a marathon race at the end of October. I'll try sub 3 hours, but I won't be sad if I don't make it. I will try again in the spring of 2025 ;)

I forgot to add. My longs runs are cut off at 32km. I'll finish last 20mins at marsthon pace or quicker which avgs out at about 3:40ish. My avg HR for these workouts usually sit about 152-56ish

You've got all the numbers to suggest #sub3, but your self-doubt could undo you on race day. I've seen too many dudes try to “bank time” early in the marathon because they don't back themselves to finish strong. In the end, they blow up because they use up their carbohydrates too early. I suggest starting out at 4:15-4:20 for the first hour, knowing you can EASILY ramp up the oace from there. That'll ensure you’re setting yourself up for success in the backend.

@drwilloconnor thank you. I'll be testing those paces out this weekend for my long run. And see how it feels. Hopefully nailing the long run on weekend will boost my confidence. Just finished the active recovery week, and I think that's what I needed. Thanks for the advice

Bro I won't give you advice here but I am wishing you all the best during your preparation and especially when the race day will come!

Work in progress 🔧 🔩 😉

I’ve thought about this a lot. The short answer is yes, some people will never be able to run sub 3. It’s the same as asking, “Is it impossible for some people to dunk a regulation basketball hoop?”. Yes, because genetics matter. However, based on the fundamental physiology of the human body, most people “should” be capable of running a sub-3hr marathon given that they train around 50miles/wk (80km/wk) consistently for a few years.

Most definitely. I'll do a separate video on that topic because there are a few things to consider. HR threshold will mostly stay the same since it's an internal reference metric compared to external like pace.

@drwilloconnor I look forward to the video, I'm currently living in key west florida so it's where I do a lot of my training. My threshold pace is around 6:40 and my goal is a sub 3 marathon, it's just very hot and humid here so I wasn't sure how much it could be slowing me down

20 miles and 26 miles is not much different when it comes to race pace, so in most cases in my opinion it's quiet possible

During training. You'd want to be hitting the times with 6 weeks to go, at least.

@@drwilloconnor thanks for the information

Quick question. What was your time for your first four 5km sections? If any of the splits were faster than 20:30min you started too fast.

@@drwilloconnor 21:23 but i don’t think that is the problem

So hard to do, though!

Worked for me on my first last week 😊