Kay sees football very different to me. An xG of .53 in a final with Palmer, Kane, Bellingham, Saka, Watkins, Foden and Rice/Mainoo screening a defence is quite frankly dire.
Rating Southgate as a manager is purely focused on results but they wilfully ignore all underlying data, the failed eye tests, but the data and how it looks has always been bad. Furthermore the Insanely lucky tournament draw, the insanely lucky results against weaker teams again completely ignored
agree. I also think that performances in earlier eras such as England in '90 or '96 vs a strong Germany side or vs Argentina/Maradona in '86 or Brazil in '02 have to be given greater weight than seeing off largely inferior opposition in Southgate's era. You can't just say that Southgate's got to a couple of Euro finals so he's the best England manager since Alf Ramsay. Venables had more tactical acumen than Southgate but he wasn't allowed to continue in the role. If Southgate hadn't missed the penalty then Venables may well have joined him in reaching a Euro final.
The importance of being lucky rather than good overtook everything. It overrode the evidence of all the bad play that we saw throughout the tournament. When you see a lowly ranked passing your team off the park you can ignore it if it does not result in a goal or shot being conceded. You can denounce it as ticky tacky bs.
@@redmed10 its no way to maintain actual policy. They and the uk media will ride the hype train until they go out at the group stage when the luck runs out
The simplest of football fans can just look at results and surface level stats like wins, losses, goals, assists - a lot of lazy online discourse is this when discussing players ability. We listen to 'analysts', 'experts', and 'pundits' etc for deeper analysis of performances - yet when it comes to Southgate, further analysis is always dismissed because it is international football & we've been poor for so long. Yeah, great, he is the most "successful"... so what? He has underperformed. It has resulted in zero trophies and relegation in the nations league. And bored us to death in the process. Stop celebrating mediocrity.
Not sure what final Kay was watching. It was a shocking performance against a Spain who really weren’t on top form at all last night. Add to that, Rodri only played for 45 minutes. Only reason England scored was through a deflection. It was dour yet again.
This is a PR piece for Gareth Southgate so obvious. France and England had the most talented squads and failed because their coaches couldn’t get them to play football. Spain played the best and most positive football - their win was a win for football.
Agree with this. Deschamps will prob be given another shot for the World cup '26 as he won in 2018. Southgate is like a poor man’s Deschamps, based his tactical approach on Didier's. Thing is if you play ugly....you have to win,2nd/3rd best isn't enough if it’s not exciting.
First half, the defensive plan was clear. Compact, tight, double up on Williams and Yamal. Spain had 0 shots; England had 1. As soon as Spain scored, the plan was out the window. It was still a plan, albeit it didn’t work.
The whole tournament they played poorly..Southgate has been tactically naive ..they had no plan ..why defend but have attacking players on ..Kane was useless .if pep or Fergie or klopp had been managing these players we could of beaten all the teams we couldn’t ..2 wins in 7 games ..and remember Southgate is on 5million a year for 8 yrs and won bugger all ..we need a better manager.
I don't think it's a matter of attacking vs defending. you totally could come up with a counter attacking lineup with the players at their disposal. his biggest sin here is that going with his best individual eleven nullifies the strengths of many of them. seriously, harry, Jude, and Phil all want to occupy that same half space and all 3 need a runner in behind.
@@davidkaomy big issue was accepting that Southgate was going to play defensive counter attack football and going fine. If that’s how we’re gunna play, at least play counter attacking players, no watkins or Gordon is counter intuitive to our system
also walker on the right and trippier on the left means no great crossers of the ball into the box for that style of kane's play. rice and stones also feels like a weird combination with similar tendencies.
Ayo, if you read this, we appreciate how you deftly challenge the typical English mindset as to whats going on with the team. As an athlete, it's clear you see whats really happening but you dont let your opinion drive things. You ask the right questions and then remind people of an athlete's point of view. Refreshing.
This was not Southgate’s England? To the rest of Europe this was exactly Southgate’s England. A reason to come close to switching off the TV. It is a shame, because there is plenty of talent, the players in that squad ( and even outside) are not worse than Spain’s.
If Southgate resigns now, he will be fondly remembered, despite the deficiencies. We desperately need a progressively minded coach to get the most out of these players.
The biggest problem is all journos like these guys who have defended and protected Southgate for a number of years, in exchange for great access to players / media days. So patronising when they all club together to tell us fans how wrong we are and how Gareth knows best.
Oli Kay has probs got the gig to co write Southgate's book after this the way he's defending him...He must of watched a different game to everyone else...
Southgate is basically a cat, he finally ran out of moments to save him this Euros. Southgate's starting Xl's: 'insanity is doing the same thing over & over again, and expecting different results.'
Southgate’s so called achievements are only testament to the talent he had at his disposal and his lack of any tactical management throughout. Pure talent got England to where they are and they always lost whenever they needed the manager to do his part
Southgate has had a very good tenure in the job. It's worth pointing out though, since comparisons to previous reigns are being made, that in previous times, far fewer teams made it into the Euros and World Cup tournaments, making both qualifications and navigating the group stages much tougher than now.
It's time to move on from Southgate. He can't get it over the line. No other team has made it to two Euros finals and failed to win one. Southgate doesn't know how to use the tools he has at his disposal, he's too negative.
Southgate is reasonably good at dealing with people. His mistakes were few in this department: sticking to Maguire, Phillips and Henderson, not putting Bellingham into a proper place (Bellingham is a Prima Donna that needs to come back to earth if he wants to be part of something with this squad). But on a tactical level he lacked a plan. During his whole tenure actually. He should have brought an assistant to do it.
Southgate has stumbled his way into finals and semis since 2018, with squads that with the right manager could have sailed through. The team against Spain was easily as good as its opponents, but somehow lacks the confidence, and most certainly lacks a solid game plan. Southgate is the perfect No.2. Creates a good atmosphere, gets all the needed prerequisites in place, setting up for a REAL boss to arrive and take charge. This was apparent from the start, years ago.
Somebody would have to explain to me why Graham Potter is not the best person for the job. IMO he has proven that he has the best style of play for an English manager. Eddie Howe is the closest one as an English coach, some might argue he is better but he won't leave Newcastle for the England job unless they fire him, so the next best option is Potter who is free.
I'm a Potter fan from his time at Brighton and I don't hold it against him for leaving. My concern about him is he is very sensitive to criticism. Even at Brighton that was obvious and it became even more clear at Chelsea where it really appeared to affect him. I just don't think the high profile nature of the role and any negative feedback he receives will suit him. I get he would look to be more on the front foot than Southgate in his style of play and would be more tactically flexible. Personally I'm not bothered whether the manager is English or not. Just bring in the best candidate.
@@jcd-kh7rn I can take that on board because he did look like a deer in headlights quite a bit at Chelsea but he's going to have to get tougher skin one way or another if he wants to be eligible for these bigger managerial jobs. For me, it's Potter or Eddie Howe but unless something changes at Newcastle in the next 6 months, I don't see Eddie Howe leaving and Potter is available right now and his style of football and tactical flexibility is exactly what England needs right now. The talent is there, England just needs a coach who can harness the potential within the squad. I don't think the manager absolutely has to be English but it would be a nice touch for an English man to bring England back to glory.
Player intelligence. Excellent point and rarely mentioned. Technical ability, on the up and up but composure and guile still a bit lacking. But you're getting there England.
If England wants to move forward and win tournaments. They have to understand that it is not possible to play Bellingham, Foden, and Kane together unless they have incredible wing backs and a more mobile DM than Rice. They all lack pace and need quick players to function. Bellingham works at Real Madrid because they have Vini and Rodrygro up front. Similar to Bellingham, Kane only function with fast wingers alongside him. And Foden works at City because Guardiol and Bernardo pushes high and wide to provide opportunities on half spaces. And of course, Pep’s system is very methodical and requires precise training. If Southgate does not realised this after a review of tournament. Then he is not the right man to make England more successful.
You can appreciate what Southgate has done for England WHILE also saying that we need someone better to progress onwards. He’s not going to win us anything
Kane, Bellingham, Foden, Saka, Palmer, Rice, Stones, Walker if that's not full of top class players that should be winning euros/world cups I must be watching the wrong sport.
Southgate has been in charge for 8 years, I think its only reasonable to expect him to reflect that it might not be a bad time to hand over the reigns. He's brought England back from disaster in 2016, but if he's not careful he might end up tarnishing his own reputation, we came very close to an equally embarassing elimination in the round of 16, is it not best for Gareth to bow out on a relative high? See also Joe Biden
Kay and his media colleagues are not objective ; they've established a relationship with Southgate and are concerned that may be tarnished and future access restricted should they say how they really feel. How else can you explain the resolute refusal to call the tournament for what it was which was a highly fortunate passage to the final with not a single impressive performance over the 90 minutes.
Getting to the final has papered over cracks that have been there for all to see from the first game. We slumped through games that on paper we should be winning easily and lost against the first team we played on our level. Considering the depth of attacking talent we've got at the moment, playing this outdated and boring defensive football simply isn't good enough.
Saka doesn't really do his running though, he holds his width well, but rarely runs in behind directly on goal. he wants to get the ball high up the pitch and come inside onto his left foot to look for shooting oportunities. that's his only real threat.
I would have thought Potter would be the ideal pick. The Chelsea debacle aside (which was not his fault), he would play that pressing, possession based, high tempo game that most of the young players have been drilled on.
I think Southgate has done well to steady the ship and create that club affect and overall has built a really good foundation. But I think his average abilities only allow him to get the team hitting 75% of their potential. I don't think he should be sacked, it would be a waste to lose him, but I do think he should go upstairs as more of a technical director style role and bring in someone like Howe or Potter (who is available) who have more club experience and tactical nous.
People can absolutely watch 7 games of Kane walking about the pitch, getting no shots off, whilst saying everyday he’s fit, and assume he’s past it for England. It’s a fair critique. I don’t agree with it but to be so poor has cost us. That game time could of give Toney or Watkins momentum
We had no left flank the entire tournament - yet could have played Rashford, Grealish, Gordon or Palmer there - all fantastic options Great squad, terrible management Not many English candidates out there - but all we need is someone sensible that can handle a bit of pressure
Virtually the entire Spanish first XI had a game off in their third grade match, against Albania. I’m not aware that any other team essentially had a week’s break during the Euros. No wonder they looked more rested than any other team. Can’t believe that this wasn’t mentioned in the show! Kay is not telling the whole truth
Southgate doesn't know anything about tactics. What were England's tactics in the tournament? Pickford is a shot stopper who plays a lot of long balls Kane is not such an earial threat, who plays with his back to goal Foden didn't know what he was going throughout the tournament, substitutes were late and wrong in many cases And to think that this clueless guy is the highest paid international manager and is going to be knighted 😄😄
The players is what has made the difference for England the last 8 years and the quality of the club mangers coaching them England players who play alongside some of the best foreign players in the world at club level and with the added fact of the lack quality of the international competition in Europe the last 10 years that is what has got england to European finals. NOT Gareth Southgate or his coaching or tactics. Playing a low block no wingers a slow forward and waiting for individual brilliance to win you games is not being tactically astute and is not the qualities or traits of a top winning manager. Someone like klopp would not have to manage the England team because they already play the way he would want them to play for there club sides. What klopp has is a big enough personality and the authorite within the game to drop any star players he needs to drop to get the right balance in the team and the tactical awareness to make in game decisions at the right moments and uses all the bench at vital times to win games and trophies! We have got to European finals despite Gareth Southgate not because of Southgate simple.
apart from basketball only has 5 players on a much smaller area of play and individuals can have significantly greater impacts. Even then Jordon needed Pippen, Rodman and the other underapreciated players to enable him to do what he did. Also there was significant angst between Jordon and some of his teammates, notably Pippen, that emerged later if they weren't apparent at the time to those in the know. It required a high class coach to make that Bulls team with all those personalities work, which ultimatley England didn't appear to have, which is odd given that a lot of Southgates success previously had been put down to creating a good environment for the players to succeed. Bellinghams attitude has been off for a while, and there have been signs of it before the tournament. People excusing it because they think we 'need' arrogance to succeed are just blind to the issues that it can cause. Bellingham needs to stop believing the hype and get back to letting his football do the talking. Frankly if you're that good you don't need to celebrate by mouthing "who else" and you don't put out that advert. It deeply disrespects the rest of the team.
If England were so concerned about creating team harmony the squad being built around equality then Jordan Henderson should of been captain other Southgate era about not Harry Kane. We all know why Kane was picked as captain ahead of a guy who ended up winning everything at Liverpool. They wanted kane to be the golden boy. The desperation for Kane to be this England golden boy has cost them the euros just like it cost spurs the champions League. Bellingham has emerged over this time period and is becoming this icon at rapid rate for his age. Very interesting that Jude isn't treated like a young player compared to Foden who is 5 years older than him. Lets put this in perspective Bellingham is younger than players like Harvey Elliott. It's deeply unfair to be hammering this kid because he has set himself a high bar. The biggest disrespect I saw in the England team was Phil Foden coming of the left side to pick the ball literally off Trent Alexander Arnold feet to try and start an attack which made him redundant and destroyed the formation. So Kay should be asking questions around the defiance to play Foden and Kane at all cost which affected the squad.
I can't believe they are implying it's Bellinghams fault lmaoooo. Phil Foden's last 21 games for England, he has 1 goal & 0 assists. How on EARTH does he still have his place?
Kane was clearly injuried as a striker . GS loyality cost England - should played Watkins and Tony . There are questions about why players not playing in there position . Its all down COACHING and TACS and SUBS . No PRIZES for 2nd 3rd or 4th place in Football . FA Need approach Klopp for World CUP so we can Play like Spain .
I find those who cry out for “attacking football”, want a “coach that plays attacking football” or go on about “progressive football” to suffer from a low IQ or just don’t understand the sport they love. To me there is no such thing as attacking football or defensive football. To me it’s all just space management. If you look at all England games this tournament especially the boring draws of the group stages and the Slovakia game, England dominated all the games in terms of possession and shots. They couldn’t get goals due to the defensive efforts of the other team sitting back and stopping high quality chances. We should be letting the other team take the initiative and risk so we can then go all out when they make an error. It’s just too easy for other teams to get a result if England insist on “progressive, possession attacking football”.
Oli Kay comes across as an apologist for the team and coach. He has an excuse for every failure. Very little acknowledgement of how poorly England failed the eye test.
The pontificating here is excrutiating. Even Lineker as an ex-player and 'impartial' BBC presenter has given bolder assessments that anything found on the Athletic. Quite embarrassing to sit there and not even dare to say what we can all see with our two eyes, frankly.
Kane absent, Bellingham looks tired and lost on the left, Declan mistakes, poor marking by Walker for both goals. All these together with ultra defensive tactics by the manager cost us the game. Southgate was going to bring on Conor to close out the game after we scored the equaliser…. need I say more. Let’s hope it’s the last game we see Gareth in charge as we won’t win anything if he was even with twenty world class players in the squad.
so, for the first goal who was Walker supposed to mark - the player running towards the centre of the penalty area (Olmo) or the one stuck out wide on the wing? Just because you're the 'right back' doesn't mean you have to just mark their 'left winger' the whole time, he went with the greater threat at the time, which is what you have to do sometimes. you can make a case somone else should have taken Olmo (Mainoo or Rice possibly) but at the time there basically wasn't anyone since the breakdown defensively on our left meant that Spain had bypassed our entire midfield and left back in two passes. If Walker stays wide to account for Williams then Olmo has an even easier chance in the middle.
a copy of Utd moments FC with no proper structure to their football, once again under Southgate absolutely lucked out with the draw had they been on the other side they would have been out at best in the quarters. They were miles off Spain and only Palmer scoring a worldy made it look like any sort of competition. Kane doing his champions league 2018 turning up half fit and stinking the place out. beat only 1 team over 90min absolute joke
We've yet again lost to a team that are, on paper at least, a direct rival with equal quality....... this happens every single time. I think its time Southgate should be moved on with a big thanks from everyone.
England has the top three league’s player of the season. England has the easiest path to the final again. Southgate is not tactical at all. All players played the same amount of games. But here we are listening to excuses and how Southgate is the saviour. Come on they were beaten by a tactical manager who has a worst team.
Southgate is a nice human being, good man-manager but on a technical level, he is a mid-table level coach with negative tactics. England need to go for Eddie Howe to better utilize their players.
i thought when we equalized we would go on and win it, but we receded back into our shell rather than taking over If we had done that, and won 2-1 everyone would be saying Southgate is a genius
Some of the comments on this forum are embarrassing. I thought this was meant to be a channel watched by thoughtful people but the aggressive criticism directed here towards Gareth Southgate and for no apparent reason Oli Kay is bizarre. If you're angry about Sunday's result then you need to zone in on where the team needs to make improvements in the future rather than making pointless and unsavoury personal attacks.
