What Rugby League can teach Rugby Union | Rugby Pod Stories 

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The players are so much bigger now that the game has fundamentally changed - exciting back and wing play is what people wanna see

Union keeps taking from league anyway - defensive drills, 40/20 kicks, attacking kicks, goal line dropouts and so on. Union's problem isn't time wasting, but officiating being centre stage too often and the fact that rucks/tackles are now so weird and the stupid jackaling that goes on. I swear referees decide most scrum penalties at random.

Played both union and league. Different games stylistically. I would say league is more brute force and union is more finesse but loved playing them both. No need to combine them though. Just need to get rid of the expectation that injuries and accidents can be prevented and just fucking play the game.

As a fan from Germany I only knew Rugby Union for the longest time. Ever since I learned about 1895 and the existence of Rugby League I can‘t get enough of League. I wonder though why both codes don‘t try to reunify. The reason for the split were different opinions on the issue of professionalism. Since Union has allowed professionalism in the 90s there is no reason (imo) to keep up that split. All it does cannabilise the sport. Given that Rugby has to compete with so many professional sports nowadays, it is not a wise move have „infighting“ in Rugby. As I mentioned, I‘m not from a Rugby nation. However, a few years ago, a German TV station did broadcast the Six Nations tournament. The next year there was no broadcast anymore… Friends of mine who gave Rugby a chance told me they didn‘t like it. They thought the game was overly complicated and slow. The line-outs were cool, they said, but they hated the scrums, rucks and mauls. I‘d love to see both codes come together and come up with a mixture of the two, to form a new and faster version of the sport. Maybe make it 11 on 11 with line-outs and uncontested scrums. Keep the scoring from Union, but the six tackles from league. As long as there are two versions of the same sport, neither will be a big hit outside a few countries, unfortunately.

1st Here's a small list on how to speed up the game, in no particular order. Also some points on making it more attractive. 1. If line out is uncontested and throw is not straight. Play on. 2. Allow the quick tap of a penalty anywhere behind the line of the mark. 3. 30 sec for penalties/conversions 4. Much less power to TMO. Cannot interrupt the game unless very serious. 5. Reassess the head contact rules, too many accidental head contact situations being severely punished and slowing game down due to the whole investigation thing happening. 6. Premiership ticket prices are getting ridiculous, paid £80 recently to go watch Bath. 7. Agree on reducing points for penalties/conversions/drop goals 8. Bring back cheerleaders. PC or not 9. Get rid of Player of the Match. Its Man or Woman of the Match 10. Have academy/ladies games before the main game. 11. Scrum is reset once, then free kick at next infringement, which can not be opted into a scrum. 12. Penalties can not be converted to scrums in opposition 22 13. Introduce meet the players at games after match 14. Allow public training sessions 15. Introduce competitions for spectators at half time. 16. Live stream games from respective clubs' website for a tiny fee, say £3-£5 Add on as you see fit

It's more important to find out what Union can "unlearn" from League. Mainly height of tackle /smother tackle obsession and the blatant obstruction /interference of the double attacking lineup when the ball goes through the backs.

I've played union all my life. I can understand people's lack of interest. The problem is the scrum. It takes too long

4:33 - 4:41 this for me is so true I’m a union man and at this point it bothers me to hear the same chants over and over usually the chants are just the teams nickname on repeat and you hardly ever hear swearing that’s one thing I think league does really well

brilliant podcast love it

I do agree with all of this except the NFL style entertainment

Late to this, but as a dual code household (wife Union, me League) I can at least tell you where I think Union is superior and inferior. Union suffers from the following - far too much kicking. Too many impossible to understand rules. Too much time with the clock running while the ball is out of play. Too many players shambling around getting a breather while league players literally can't get going quickly enough after a whistle. Calling for the mark (this one is a particular shocker). Scrums are absurd. Mostly the trouble boils down to obscure rules requiring a PhD to comprehend and far, far too much dither and delay. League's basic conditions of fewer players and limited tackles mean it is more conducive both to good rugby and to entertainment. Its relative lack of nuance means there's less obscure specialisms - most competent big lads up front could fulfil any forward's role, minus hooker. Backs are a bit different but I find that the basic ball handling, tackling and running skills are much, much superior in League. Union has handling errors which just don't exist as often in League. This wouldn't matter so much but Union sees ridiculous delay whenever the whistle blows. League is relatively one-dimensional, but no-one ever asked for a sport to become more complicated. And this is not to give the impression that all League games end 36-28, cos they don't. This is because defences are strong. You watch a closely matched State of Origin contest and not only will the score generally be something like 6-6 at half time, but you will also be watching the most intense and high quality top level sport which exists anywhere on earth. But league is going somewhat in the wrong direction and needs to be careful, but that's another post. Most of all in union I would recommend that it goes through the rules and abandons 90% of them, punishes dithering and disincentives kicking. But most of all it is down to the referee to keep his nose out and for the players to get a bloody move on now and again.

So many good points made

The women's game is phenomenal to watch. Heaps of action, not to much time wasting. Real contrast in styles at test level and super rugby Aupiki. From a biased fan of the women's game!

Would never work in Union, but the 10 metre rule in league is just class. Massive hits occur so much more. All we need now is to bring back the shoulder, and bring back the biff.

One difference between union and league that is often overlooked is the defence line. In union the defensive line is directly behind the tackle while in league the defending team goes back 10m before coming forward to defend the next play. Correct me if I'm wrong

Reduce some penalties to free kicks will improve rugby, drop goals are good

Time wasting is a huge problem in Union. I think the clock should stop as much as possible during a match (after tries, knock-ons, before dropouts, etc.); and refs should be aggressive in getting teams to restart play in a timely manner. As it stands now, continuous play (which I think is the most exciting the game gets) is rare, and teams actively try to stop play. If we get more ball in play , we will get more tired players, more mistakes, more variation, and more excitement. An added benefit in my opinion is that a slower game is more conducive to playing with huge players as it gives them plenty of rest time. Huge players are exciting, but also make for more dangerous collisions. A faster pace of play means you can incentivize smaller, fitter, faster players. Collisions will be a bit safer and the game will be more exciting.

If you could reunite the codes, how would you combine the rules? And how would you go about merging the leagues and ruling bodies etc?

Rugby League was established because the public school toffs couldn’t stand the idea of having to play and possibly lose against working class miners and factory workers so they banned professional teams and players. Thats why rugby league was invented, the rule changes took place to make it a more attractive viewing product so that people would pay to come watch it as the rugby league clubs relied more on ticket sales than union ever did.

Penalties 1 Convertions 3 Drop goals 2 Kicking to touch on the full in the 22 should be a free kick

Rugby Union a global powerhouse 😂😂😂😂 good one

No football is a bad example of crowds

I think it would be very positive if you try a game of sevens, with four quarters of 15 minutes each. In this we would have sixty minutes of Union play, with the emphasis on League's hand game. That could be tried.

I've tried getting into Rugby Union. The game is boring. Teams pause at the ruck having a breather, then kick. The forwards are too big and heavy. It's like watching in slow motion. Too many players on each side. You need to see more 1 on 1 situations for excitement. Too many fouls, to slow the ruck. Scrums often take 2 goes to get going. Also in the UK its got a reputation as being a sport for the upper class. This doesn't help.

I’ve grown up watching rugby league, so naturally I prefer it to union. But in saying that, I do enjoy union and like it. But from my point of view, the game is just way too over officiated. 95% of the time the ref blows a penalty, I don’t even know what it’s for. And then with those penalties, teams obviously go for goal because it’s 3 points. This makes for an extremely boring viewer experience. I do respect union and enjoy the tactics of the sport. But for the reasons mentioned above, I just find it too hard to fully get into

The last rugby union game I went to see, literally the last 10 minutes was taken up by 1 scrum that kept in collapsing or moving around so had to be restarted. Also why is rugby union in winter? That game was so cold I couldnt wait to leave and go indoors to get warm. Most rugby league games are over the summer months. If you’re from Yorkshire or Lancashire, rugby league also has a unique connection to your heritage

Union obviously learns from League which is why there are ex League player coaching at top Union clubs and Countries and no Union players coaching in League. The best thing that Union can take from League is cut down the number of players on the pitch. There is no need for 8 players in a scrum as whoever puts the ball in gets it back. This is the same as League but in League it only takes 5 seconds to do this where in Union it takes several attempts taking minutes not seconds. Anyone watching the NRL final this year would never watch a game of Union again. Amazing really and one of life’s greatest mysteries, just how is Union more popular than League.

You skipped a lot here though in history. RL split due to professionalism, not purely to make the sport more appealing. That came afterwards. RL for about a century had contested scrums and .... rucks aka play-the-balls. Watch games from the 70s or 80s and you'll see that defenders could 'strike' at the play the ball and win the ball back. It essentially took RL a century to get where it is now where scrums are just a formality and the play-the-ball is just a restart. This was not the case from the outset. The 10 metre rule in RL means that there's a lack of nuance at times and there's no real forward play to speak of other than carting the ball up and 'winning' the ruck, ie getting up faster than the defenders and playing the ball quickly so the dummy half can steal some yards. You'll see teams in the ascendency often make 50/60 yards simply from a few quick rucks and runs from dummy half, particularly if the outside backs come in against tiring forwards. While this is fast, I personally don't find it that entertaining. Once you know what's happening, you see the relative lack of sophistication in that type of play: forward takes it up, tries to get up quicker than the defenders and play the ball as fast as possible, winger, centre or full back run from dummy half against a few front rowers. It's a bit repetitive and not that creative. I do love RL but it can get monotonous. I prefer watching games from the 90s when they still had some semblance of a scrum and they had a 5 metre rules. Attackers had to work harder, offload more etc, to work their way forward. RU: yes, the ruck and scrum rules are a mess and I really struggle to understand almost all scrum penalties and 30% or so of ruck penalties. As regards personalities. Double-edged sword, NRL may have them but off-field antics of NRL players were an absolute embarassment to the sport in the 2000s and you see a lot more outright problematic behaviour from NRL players than from Union players. If RU can simplify the ruck, make scrums quicker, easier and less of the penalty-fest that they currently are, they'll be making some progress.

"We need to learn from football". I get we want to increase viewership and fanbases, football is not what we want to inspire ourselves from. Remember fans have to be kept separate in football and abuse of players is rife. Also, I get we lack chants in English rugby, but go to France and you immediately get more ambiance. That's what we need to inspire ourselves from. Not the football mentality.

Would rugby Union be more exciting to watch if forward passes were legal?

- make penalty kicks and drop goals two points each. - stop the clock once ball is out of play until ball is live again (thrown in lineout/ ball put in scrum etc). - no repeated scrum resets: after one reset if followed by a second automatic freekick against most obvious offending team. - have rolling replacements for forwards only like league to keep them more fresh who can come on and off as many times as coaches want (monitored by touch judge not ref to prevent delays). - max 3 players from each team per ruck - would encourage fast/ cleaner rucks and discourage mass bodies in rucks/ lying on ball/ slowing down. Offence leading to immediate quick tap freekick where ball is located. - *controversial suggestion*: successful penalty kicks get 2 points. Unsuccessful penalty kicks lose 2 points. - can only score one try directly from a driving maul per half (ie still bound to mall once try is scored). - try scored from when crossing into opposition 22 without a ruck (another phase - ie all part of same phase) scoring team gets 2 point conversion automatically (like penalty try) to encourage keeping ball alive when in "red zone".

Heaps of comments about how union is bigger and does not need to try and make the game more entertaining due to it being bigger. Fact- Most union comps around the world have sold of parts of the game to stay solvent. Union clubs around the world dropping like flies. Fact- there is red ink all over the club game off Rugby Union. Healthy sustainable leagues don't sell of the furniture to stay solvent. Union needs to make the game more entertaining, its time to get your head out your ass and improve the product. There is only so much furniture you can sell before the game goes broke. Time for change.

I really think that a hybrid of the two sports could work. Keep leagues fast pace, but bring in the scrum from union.

One thing Rugby Union could do that would be very healthy for the sport's future - stop throwing money you can't afford to lose at headline-chasing signings and overinflated wages for massive squads. The pinnacle of the English game has managed to lose two entire clubs in one season, with a few more eying the abyss. And that's healthy compared to Wales, Scotland or Australia. The All Blacks are running out of credible opponents, with South Africa eying Europe and the Pacific Islands losing talent to Rugby League at a rate not seen before. Swallow the pride, strut a little less, accept some tough long-term decisions.

Right, copy league where tackles are always high.

Time limits on everything - lineouts, scrums, penalties, conversions- and stop the tactical magic sponge treatments of ‘injured’ players and get rid of the TMO nonsense.

This is ridiculous 🤷‍♂️

Get rid of rolling mauls... often teams rely on these to score... basically get a penalty... kick out near the touch line, win the line out ball, create a large maul... often bringing in backs to help... and push. The rules are such that they are virtually impossible to stop... the ball is 2 players away from a defender, collapse it and you can get a penalty try and a player sin binned from the defending side. Of everything including the two sets of fat blokes taking ages to set scrums this is the thing that makes Rugby no spectacle..

Get rid of all kicking for points, drop goals, conversion and penalty kick. No wants to watch a player kick a ball from 40m out. You shouldn’t lose a game if you scored 3 trys and opponents have scored 1 try and 5 penalties kicks

Some good points, many awful ones and you missed the elephant in the room

If you applied union laws to rugby league matches, there would be any players left on the field.

I played and was obsessed with union but am falling out of love with it. I think Union's problems are mostly cultural. Its values and culture are out of synch with its audience. Theyre sanctimonious and hypocritical. The 'Rugby values' bullshit that insists the game should somehow be privileged and judged by different standards from other pursuits, so a bloke like Joe Marler goes unpunished for racist sledging because he's a character and if he is going to be punished it should be dealt by an enforcer on the opposite team. As for what Union could learn from League..... I am impressed by how League is trying to reinvent itself as a progressive and inclusive participation sport. Look at the attention men and women's wheelchair RL gets from its governing body and its World Cup as an example of what I'm talking about.

Just get rid of penalty kicks, conversions and drop goals all together. No one wants to watch a player kick the ball from 40m out. It will make the score system easier. You shouldn’t lose a game of rugby if you have scored 3 tries and opponents have scored 1 but kick 5 penalties

Just no.

A true indictment of Union in Australia they have a far more interesting game, honestly rugby league is almost as boring as soccer. Get your school rivalries going that is where rugby starts in South Africa

Not getting this, league is played by two countries in a serious way and another 2 countries to a lesser degree. Hardly a successful international game. The game in the northern hemisphere is going well, it's the sh that's the pro len

And yet the Super league is far less entertaining than the Heineken Cup.

There's very little that league can contribute to improve union. The statistics mentioned here are meaningless. Yes Union is in crisis but trying to emulate league will completely kill the game. Competition for the ball is what made union unique and entertaining and phoney scrums and stupid limits on possession with tackle counts is rubbish. Was league game designed by Marxists?

If you want to watch Rugby League go and watch Rugby League but don't try to turn Union into a watered down version of it. You must have noticed that RL is dying on its arse and has been for years? I say this as a former RL fan, I had a season ticket at Central Park in the late 80s and early 90s - there were routinely 20-30,000 in attendance. Now at the DW the average attendance is about 12,000, across Super League it's about 8,000. The game is also a shadow of its former self, and is sorely lacking in terms of entertainment. It's become incredibly one-dimensional, I can barely get through a game any more. As for bringing in "entertainment"? Honestly, you really think people go to the rugby for a shitty chart act and some fireworks at half time? And moaning about fans being too nice to each other? Again, if you want to call someone you've never met a c*nt and try to fight them go to the football, I like not having to deal with that nonsense when I go to a match. The most important change that could be made is getting live rugby on the TV on a weekly basis. If bystanders can see the game without having to pay through the nose for it they'll take more of an interest. Fix the scrum - make it about restarting the game rather than an opportunity to win a penalty - 3 seconds from the scrum being set to get the ball in and out or it's a free kick to the opposition. Speed up the lineout, 10 seconds from the ball going out the being thrown in or again, a free kick to the opposition. Maximum squad weight and a reduced number of substitutions, make players lighter and faster. There are loads of easy fixes.

Only rugby union could ignore THE BIGGEST SPORT IN THE WORLD and try and learn from even smaller sports

The reason RL moved far from its rugby roots is solely to do with the need to get paying customers through the turnstiles to boost the coffers of club owners (think of stereotypical businessmen like Maurice Lindsey). But after 130 years of tinkering with the game it still has no widespread appeal and the RFL has failed miserably in its mission. Constantly changing the nature of the sport to make tries more likely in the hope that the game will then be "more entertaining" simply has not worked.

Dont think it could learn anything from rugby league in England. As the video mentions the one thing both rugby codes need what football has in abundance is rilvary.

I would rule out scrumming and Rugby League is not faster than Union.

Why would Union need to learn anything from the biggest failure of a professional sport in the world?

Let's be clear on this; the League game actually stops when the tackle is completed and is not in play again until the tackled player rises and "plays the ball". Take that fact into account and then tell us how much the RL ball is really in play.

Why does rugby Union has to learn anything from rugby league? Why does a bigger sport like rugby union need to learn anything from a sport that is struggling to find a host nation for their world cup? 😂

Everything but the silly entertainment. Football style fans is good and bad.

My god, please don't let Union turn to Rugby league anymore than it already has. Just take a look at the League world cup, it's farcical. Only one country really gives a crap about League; Australia. And half the players from the other teams are made up of NRL players. It's about time time union stopped looking at an inferior sport for improvement ideas. Compare the revenue of the League World Cup vs the Union one. There's no comparison. The rush defence came from league - can anyone tell me how that has somehow improved Union has a spectacle?

in other words union suks. why flog a dead horse?

Some cracking ideas, but union is already a bigger sport than league. Why not set the bar higher and try and learn from the greatest American export. The NFL, the NFL is all about fan experience something union is lacking. How incredible would it be if during the World Cup final their was a Rita Ora half time concert. Would really set union apart from other sports. How about there time format? Why not have 4 quarters instead of 2 half’s. Allowing the big fellas up front more recovery and allow for more coaching tactical input.

Am I the only person who finds League tedious and dull? Comparing it to union is like draughts and chess or BTECs to PhDs, there is only going to be one winner if you have the brains. Also league is simpler but there is already a massive sport that’s simple and that’s football

Union > League

It definitely needs to merge. It is crazy to me that it has not. I find the rugny Union actually more entertaining, when i watch Rugby league, it looks like repeat repeat repeat. Also the scoring is silly, only one point for a dropped goal. that is why most of the scores are always even numbers. Personally I would make a drop goal a 4 point score. Certainly 13 men a side might make a better game.

Nothing can be learnt from league as 2 men short,in the game, as union Zero tackle can't be beaten...as league to many tackles.

I use to love League I grew up watching it N wouldn't miss a game of Origin or the broncos playing but when my brain developed with age I also developed an acquired taste for a more complex form of rugby. Now I find league super boring and lame and brainless to watch. Rugby Union is this best rugby and should be the only rugby played in the world. Sorry if i offended any League fans but it's true once you understand half the rules of Union you will realise how lame League is and how much better and competitive Union is.

Nothing. League has nothing Union can be interests in

League can't teach Union anything because its mindless play. If you are a Union fan you will understand that the game is complex - not for cavemen who just run and tackle without any strategy. It bores the hell out of me.

rugby league isnt exciting. Its bloody boring. the same shit the whole game. unwatchable