What RUINED Star vs. the Forces of Evil? 

Finale did suck bro. Worse than the Steven universe finale bro. The amount of “whoopsie we don’t have time for this” and just forget about all the plot points is insane.

Saber could you please review Persepolis (2007)?

Oh just till you get to Tales of Arcadia it takes 6 years of story, character development, and world building. Then the finale movie threw it all in the trash and lit it on fire.

Wasn't it one of the highest rated Disney Channnel shows of the 2010s?

Saber, in the end, it was still a better ending than Game of Thrones.

What makes it worse is that Daron said that Tom was based off of all of her ex-boyfriends, which really makes you think who was the issue in that relationship.

She sounds like the perfect protagonist for most shows nowadays. Rey in the Star Wars sequels, Captain Marvel, Abbey from The Ma'am of Us Part Deuce.

@@zuttoaragi8349 the show is very reminiscent of MLB. It’s these types of Mary Sue jerk main protagonists and they’re obviously going to happen boyfriend who starts off kind and turns into as much of jerk as she is. A lot of them are also self inserts with characters like Tom or Chloe whom you’re meant to hate but can’t cuz you don’t have the creator’s bias

@@BelBelle468 MLB?

Not to mention, Tom was willing to change, grow, and even go through an incredibly painful ritual to help his anger issues. Tom was working on himself the whole time! Star didn't seem to grow as a girlfriend, and she kept going back and forth with Tom and Marco to the point I was beyond frustrated. Seeing someone is actively working on themselves to grow is a good sign of a decent person, and I REALLY wanted Tom to win in the end. He worked so hard.

@@ezbeanz4208 that’s the beauty of character development! But seriously, it does go to show doesn’t it?

@@ezbeanz4208 uh,, did we watch the same show? I thought it was done pretty well from what I remember, and that he did get some good development. If anyone had negative character development it would be Star herself lmao. But hey, it has been literal years since I watched it last (when the finale aired), and you're more than valid in your own opinion as well.

You're not the only one!

Tom is my favorite character, he actually went through a whole character arch, got therapy realized he was being too clingy, and that he and Star didn't work. He went through so much and was a better man for it.

Damn.

It literally is the thing the villains do in a bunch of other series.

Even if it was to stop another villain Star became Toffee. She pulled a "Escape from L.A" with that move she did

Agreed

I disagree on the original comment. It is absolutely not what a villian would do, this kind of move to destory a very powerful and thus dangerous device is throughout many mythologies. You can even find it in Inu Yasha, where the jewel is destroyed in the end by Kagome. In my opinion, the destruction of magic wasn't a bad plot choice, quite the opposite. You finally see that Star is maturing (a little), by willingly getting rid of her power deus-ex-machina-solve-all-my-problems device.

⁠​⁠@@antonk.653Star literally killed at the very least 4 people, that’s not maturing that’s murder. It is very unlikely that it was just 4 though as the spells probably also got destroyed and it’s VERY likely that there were other magical beings out there killed.

Ik the ending was so fuckin horrible that I cried

The shows of the time were enjoyable but the understanding of morality left a lot to be desired. And with Disney at least it’s only gotten worse

@@LiveLaughLoveLightYagamiyou know its bad that someone cries over an ending not because it was emotional or the show ended, BUT BECAUSE THE ENDING WAS FLIPPIN AWFUL.

They are better off with out magic

Star was so good being marco wingman with Jackie and they ruin it because she caught feelings

@@christian6455 star is based on the creator and Marco on the creators husband so that why they ended up together she just teased people to much about the relationship.

​@@michaeltaylor788 that's a poor reason, don't know why people like you need to bring that up.

@@smart.but.stupid it’s the reason there together and the real reason people are mad about was it was done badly (and Star did a genocide at the end before we finally got it 😢).

To be fair, that alone shouldn't be too bad. Lots of shows eventually write out characters if they feel like they can't do anything with them. But ya, this show had a lot of issues.

Meanwhile, the rest of the MHC is cheering on as magic nazis ready to exterminate numerous other races. I think she realized what she did wrong, and that the rest of the MHC wasn't redeemable. She made a sacrifice to save the monsters from Mina and the MHC.

Because she is ancient is that she would have more reasons to just end it. Specially when she knows all the bad stuff the council has done to "control" magic.

​@@kauske I don't know, that sounds forced. She couldn't have sent all the monsters to another dimension? Even if they have the interdimensional scissors, they first need to know where they went. And I imagine that she could have taken them away

@@srmicho9492 She couldn't even handle Ludo with half a wand, and she's going to handle indestructible magic knights and the rest of the MHC? How are you going to get the monsters away from the knights? That still doesn't solve that the monsters home was stolen by Mewmans either. The magic in SVTFOE is just an allegory for a corrupt and systemically bad governmental system. That's probably why it pisses Americans off so much, lol. They don't like being reminded the land they call their own was stolen from other humans at the barrel of a gun. SVTFOE was bold to even tackle such a thing, and people despise them for it.

@@kauskeWhile the Magic High Commission had some anti-monster tendencies their primary goal at the end seem primarily based in wanting Eclipsa out and Moon back in as Queen of Mewni, not Mina's whole "let's kill all the Monsters" thing. Besides that idea would be rich considering the fact that supplementary material confirms that Omnitraxus Prime, one of the supposedly "irredeemable" MHC members, attempted to convince Festivia that maybe she should make peace with Monsters only to be stopped by *HEKAPOO.* So the idea that Hekapoo is the only redeemable member of the MHC when she has been shown to be just as prejudiced as the rest, if not more so considering she never had a moment that hinted she might've had an epiphany like Omnitraxus did, is just ludicrous and inconsistent. Omnitraxus and Rhombulous are only like this because the writers removed any humanizing traits they had in previous seasons. Also framing Hekapoo's actions as a heroic sacrifice fall flat on its face considering the fact that destroying Magic won't just kill the MHC, but *ALL MAGICAL BEINGS IN THE MULTIVERSE.* Regardless of how shitty she thinks she and her brothers have been, that doesn't mean she has *ANY* right to condemn all magical beings to death for *their mistakes.* By that type of logic, Ludo would be making a "heroic sacrifice" if he decided that it was time that he and all Monsters should bite the dust by submitting to Mina's army because some of them like Toffee and Seth were really awful people. Funny how you can justify genocide like that when you point out the bad members of a specific group. You know the Nazis did some really messed up stuff, as penance for that all Germans should let themselves be victims of genocide to make up for that. You see how stupid that is?

I don’t mind that, although it can be a bit annoying and repetitive. However, hearing about Star’s character assassination, I wonder why people ship her and Marco, and why the writers suddenly made it about romance.

It's your fault for not seeing how OBVIOUS Starco is from episode 01 lol

@@SukiNoKoe but throughout the series they're seen as bestfriends, with macro even having a crush on another girl. its fair to say that Op and many others felt blindsighted when it came to romantic starco.

@@SukiNoKoeSure, if you ignore the total lack of foreshadowing, the total lack of chemistry, & the buildup of a separate relationship that conflicts with Starco.

@@D_YellowMadness You are deadass WRONG about the first two things and I don't care about the other ships. xD

Well, an easy quick solution is a very Star move...

@@_V.Va_i mean, seeing as it was the only way to save Mewni, its fair. they used all the strength to fight one soldier, imagine how much strength they wouldve lost fighting ALL.

And another thing that could have a solution was Eclipsa using that OP spell that killed everything that it touches, yeah, at first she didn't use it anymore bc se was tired but when she was in a good state again SHE NEVER USES IT. I think that was super dumb, like "we have this super OP spell that can destroy the army BUTTT, oh no, the poor tree and mountain now have a hole with a butterfly-shape on them, we can't use that spell anymore it's too dangerous.... Well, now we gonna make a massive magic genocide!!!"

​@@Average_.AceAttorneyFanEclipsa even suggested going back and fighting themselves, she was onto something, but Moon and Star are like braindead ig, even Marco was questioning their decision, and he's biased-

Or like White Diamond in Steven Universe.

My Little Pony still killed villains

​@@somerandolad killing millions of species and domestic abuse are okay as long as you say sorry

​@@genericname2747 damn, I didn't know that. mlp is kinda based for that ngl

​@@LowIntSpecimen Sombra's so evil, they killed him twice.

It's the Lost/Moffat school of writing, put cool plot hooks in and hope to invent a good resolution for them later. To the audience this looks like hints you would use to show off a polished story set in a developed world, so you get extra hype with minimal effort. Then you have no luck reconciling this many randomly added ideas, the plot crashes and takes the worldbuilding down with it. The speculation is fun in the moment, but finding out the setup had no intended payoff really sucks.

Honestly this. This is the reason the ending was so bad. Not just the ending but season 4 as a whole and a good portion of season 3. They built things up to go nowhere with them and then took time away from resolving those loose ends and instead built up more things that would go nowhere. The Tom/Star and Kelly/Marco were so much more interesting than starco, but iirc they spent 3 episodes forcing starco to happen instead of just rolling with what they just built up a few episodes before. And the monster prejudice never being dealt with properly. There was a really interesting storyline where the populous starts to become more accepting but it's rushed and relegated to a b storyline. I don't even hate the giving up magic angle, but they didn't build that up at all. It just came out of nowhere and left the main character having committed genocide and destroyed entire worlds that ran on magic. Meanwhile earth now needs to redraw borders, it has thousands if not millions of displaced people they need to rehome. And these are problems the show brings up when the monsters come back to mewni and take back their lands and houses. So it's not overthinking to wonder what happened to all that. The actual finale itself was probably just a sub par and disappointing episode, but as as a finale it makes the rest of the show worse because it backtracks the story, the monsters will have to deal with earth prejudice while still fighting mewni prejudice; Star and Marco are still terrible at relationships, but they're end game so who cares; Eclipsa wasn't evil so the foreshadowing with baby, the monster arm, Marco's wand, toffee's suit, etc was all meaningless; and a bunch of side characters that you really start to love all die and no one cares so why should you?

@@mlatu315 You're kidding, right? Kelly and Marco had NO build-up; she was a substitute for Star and he broke up with her because he realized this. Same thing with Tom being a substitute for Marco.

I had forgotten about Toffee wanting to destroy the magic. lol

The cheek marks was easily explained. If you used the wand, you'd get them. 🙄

My farts are better than Saberspark’s farts

Yup and on top of that I also notice that during the first season and it’s later seasons (Specifically Seasons 3-4) had the animation being largely inconsistent with some moving smoothly like the current animated series (Mercury Filmworks) and other times the episode’s animation moves like Flash Animation (Sugarcube).

I always found Starco dumb

I blame subverting expirations myself.

what ruined it for me was that they destroyed magic when it wasn't the root of the problem, that's like getting ride of planes after 9 11

i'd say the first two seasons + battle for mewni should be remembered

It's funny to think that Daron Nefcy created Tom based off of her ex-boyfriend.

Ugh, no. Star wasn't a good girlfriend, but folks give Tom too much credit for how he was as a boyfriend. He initially seemed cool with having a birthday party for Star, but when she didn't like it, Tom ducked out and tried to place the blame on Marco. He helped Star set up for the monster party, but didn't understand why it was important to her. He helped her look for Buff Frog, but dragged his feet while doing so. He helped Marco fight Meteora, but didn't help Star, Marco and River look for Moon. He worked with Marco to cheer up Star with a Beach Day, but doesn't do much to help Star with Eclipsa. If Marco, Janna, and even Pony Head can find the time to help Star, Tom has no excuse. It's easy to blame Star for what happened, but Tom wasn't always there for her. He's just the more passive of the two.

my boy Tom along with Janna and Kelly deserved their own, much better, show

@@ThisIsAshley41 u clearly have never been in a real relationship if u think that about him lol

Yeah and then at the end his whole intention was apparently to get rid of magic. You know what, I'm not going to think. This show doesn't deserve my brain power.

Actually, Toffee looked like he did hate magic when he was a teen and when he got zapped by Meteora when he threatened Glossaryck, the baby just made his hatred for it worse. At least that's how I interpret that scene considering his lines were like "I told you magic was evil" when he recovered and left.

This is wrong from all aspects, dude. Toffee literally said "You see? This is the threat of magic! This is what we are at war against" after he got zapped by Meteora. So this theory is extremely FALSE. And you are dumb.

Sounds like the “girl from another dimension” became less dimensional throughout the seasons

Magic puppies? Get to live somehow despite being a fuggin spell. The entire high commission? Death played off as nothing and used as a gag during the finale.

The puppies survived off of spite

That seems to be a running theme with a lot of shows lately. Too scared to alienate any market share, so there's big bumper rails on plots and the series. The most glaring example I can think of in recent memory is Amphibia's Christmas episode where Anne is repeatedly asked 'What is Christmas about?' And she dodges it because the writers wouldn't just make a ten second dip in the water. She could of just said 'Well it's about this Jesus guy but it's also an important time of year for all kinds of people for different reasons - but we all agree it's a time to get together.' And if Sprig pressed it then the writers could dodge and just say: 'listen bud you'll be back in Amphiba before I could explain all of it.' Instead they leave every demographic out in the cold in trying not to offend any of them.

@@zynski3451 Christmas is about giving gifts and spending time with family. Im pretty sure thats what she said, which is true.

@@Gamer_G33k idk maybe it just really stuck out to me because I head-canon'd Anne as Pinoy the entire show.

Do you honestly believe that a show marketed towards kids would imply that a Teenage girl would intentionally Kill countless "Magical Beings"? When it was supposed to stop a genocide.

@@dennisscipio They would definitly not want it but the simple fact is that is exactly what they did, with a lot of convinient plot holes like pony head, she should be dead there is no way someone like her can be alive without magic. But yes the world was set to have a lot of magical creatures then you destroy magic then that means necesarily you exterminated all magical creatures.

@@dennisscipio They were very explicit about all the magical creatures dying, and confirmed that it did happen.

Dumbest move ever. Especially in terms of marketing. They were awesome characters and Disney is literally about marketing various cute and popular characters and they just made them all go away!

We have ZERO evidence that Star commited genocide,it's just an excuse that Star haters use to hate her

Season two was the best indeed, but I think that ended up hurting the later seasons even more because they couldn’t keep up the momentum. I love the season two finale, but honestly while Battle For Mewni” was solid it didn’t completely live up to the hype I had after the end of season two. Like after a whole season of slowly teasing the return of Toffee, he finally comes back through Ludo and demolishes the Magic High Commission. I thought he would posses Ludo permanently from then on and try to overthrow Mewni. Ultimately the show when it finally returned for season three Toffee ended up still in the background as the focus shifted back to Ludo invading Mewni, which still lead to some decent comedy, but it ultimately was underwhelming. It would be like if Avatar the Last Airbender followed up their season two finale with the characters coming back to Ba Sing Se and overthrowing Azula in like five episodes with a more comedic tone as season three started. Wouldn’t that be disappointing? But yeah, as much as I love season two it does suffer from later seasons failing to follow through on some of it’s best parts. The way they built up Jackie and Marco’s relationship was super good, so it’s a pity they broke them up at the first chance they had early in season three. Like, I’m not opposed to them breaking up but after you’ve built them up for two seasons I think you should have at least two other episodes building up why Jackie would want to break up with Marco, or vice versa.

I honestly prefered Ludo over Tofee, specially after his character development​, soo I was happy that he survived..... IF ONLY THEY WOULD HAVE USED HIM @@Doug_Edwards99

and murdering the entire MHC just felt so off. In fact leading up to their deaths it felt like they suddenly got dumbbed down. ORigonally they were depicted as entirely proper and heroic even. I mean goat guy even sacrificed himself. But in the final season they just start unreasonably hating globgor, eclipsa, and monsters desite being closer to monster than humans themselves ... but they're just suddenly depicted as mega unreasonable and stupid as if to make it justifiable when killed off screen.

@@metazoxan2Just like Dexter Season 4.

Didn't season 4 have a whole episode about breaking the blood moon bond?

@@adamdavis1648 yea and they did but still felt about each other that way etc

i think they said that the blood moon curse was fake, they genuinely developed feelings for each other

​@@magicalgirl4 except then that makes the fact they removed it at all make no sense, because tom sure wasn't treating it as fake and neither was his grandfather. Why have an episode treating it as an issue if it was never an issue? And on top of that, marco said "I've felt like this since the beginning" implying they didn't develop feelings and that he just always liked her romantically since they met. So yeah, didn't end up working.

The Blood Moon thing was just weird overall. In the introduction, is had a "Red Sting of Fate" vibe, but practically never showed up until the episode where Marco "got Marshmallows" (it makes sense if you've seen the episode), so they undo the curse. But then Marco (near the finale) says that he always had a crush on Star, even before the Blood Moon. Not to mention the two were able to have decent relationships with other people, until they break up for either poor reasons or none whatsoever. I saw this one RU-vidr suggest that the Blood Moon would interfere with whatever relationship the two bonded characters would be in.

not to mention the fact that Marco is technically a 30 year-old man

@@PizzaMadeMeFat Yeah. How that was overlooked at all is beyond me.

Mr. Mister what's your favorite star vs the forces of evil character?

They know the popularity of starco, so they wanted to make it. Probablay starco is one of the reason why this show became popular even in my country. By the way, I've still see starco pps on social media ( with wearing football team jerseys)

My farts are better than Saberspark’s farts

Yeah the mistreatment of the MHC is one of my main sticking points to. IT would be fine if they were at least given development as villains and went out in an epic finale ... but instead they're just made into raging racists again monsters (despite looking like monsters themselves) with no reason given as to why they think this. ANd then they're shown just partying at the death of innocents before next being shown killed off as a joke. IT's such a slap in the face if you liked any of their characters. NOt to mention other characters like Pony Head are just ... okay so what is or isn't erased is SUPER inconsistent.

My main gripe was how they treated magic at the end destroying everything they built upon. But reading the comments, there's just so many different kinds of reasons people were mad at this show about. It's honestly very interesting - I was so disappointed at the conclusion at the end I didn't even watch the last episode. I've never done that before. I was actually surprised but relieved that I wasn't alone.

Agreed😅 I feel like the writers were influenced by fans WAAAAY too much 😶 especially when it stopped the plot

after I read your comment, I immediately thought of the way Owl House handles its ships. you've got you're two core Canon ships: lumity and raeda, and they both get a great amount of screen time that enhances the story, not obstructs it. when I think of Owl house the show, the shipping is so far down on the list of things I focus on because the show runners are more focused on the story than the shipping fan service, like Star vs. did. when I think of Star vs. now, one of the very first things that come to mind is the messy handling of relationships, and how alot of the good story beats were thrown away in favor of shipping. I loved Star vs. when it first came out, and fell off because of the messy shipping and lost plot and character development. It still holds a place in my heart,, but it's bitter sweet because of the glaring problems in the later 2 seasons. anyways, thank you for listening to my Ted talk, watch Owl house if you haven't already :)

Basically the state of My Hero Academia, you got the fanbase who is all hardcore on the shipping while the frickin' creator himself did not want that (he does but only as a secondary element that will not matter until the very end of the story which as of now still isn't), yet the fanbase always pressuring and sometimes even abusing him to give what they want

@@karleyrae7705 I haven't seen Owl House but my partner watches it and they've said the same thing. I think why the shipping in Owl House works is because the creators are clear in what they want and are the ones in control, not the fanbase.

I'll need this for upcoming plan.

My farts are better than Saberspark’s farts

And a year prior Voltron legendary defender dropped the ball with its finale.

Star’s finale was STILL better, if you ask me!

Michael Strong what's your favorite star vs the forces of evil character?

Wait, really?

Kelly was done dirty!

It's the How I Met Your Mother Problem. They decided how they wanted it to end before they decided how they were gonna get there & never used their planned conclusion as a basis on which to question their own ideas before writing them. The result is a conclusion that doesn't match up with the buildup & is portrayed as a good thing but is seen as obviously tragic & unreasonable to the viewers.

I totally agree with you. At first I was like grr I’m team starco but that tune quickly changed when it was clear how perfect Jackie was with Marco. They would have been a sweet and chill couple and I liked that the show seemed to break the stereotype of having the lead boy/girl characters date, but of course they had to ruin everything

I expected Jackie to be a mean girl, or be hiding something sinister and was really happy that wasn’t the case. I really liked how she and Janna played a bigger role in season 2.

I still think star and marco were best ship, mainly because of Blood moon season 1, but yeah I felt that they did Jackie dirty and didn’t know how to keep her and develop her, heck even jana could have used some more screen time in terms od development.

Sounds like a South Park demise

@@mckenzie.latham91 if you want to hear my idea on how to keep Jackie, maybe she could have joined the adventures and could have been trained to fight the forces of evil during season 3 and 4, like Connie from Steven Universe like, that'd be the most obvious choice

Game of Thrones got the same treatment. Like it hurts to look back on season 2 and 3 for that series and knowing how bad the finale is. Such wasted potential

Oh I see

@@Saberspark are you able to get rid of the bots?😅 they’re quite annoying

Ignitedquils what's your favorite star vs the forces of evil character?

Same goes to Voltron remake

They're Probably All Living On Combined Mewni/Earth. That's What I'm Thinking Happened To Them.

I figured the writers implied that Marco didn't have an "adult brain" anymore well enough when they had him act like his teenaged self for the rest of the series rather than his grown man self lol. It sounds like what you wanted was explicit confirmation that this experience didn't fundamentally change his character or how he relates to people, but I think their decision to ignore the episode in favor of his prior characterization a neurotic boy already does that.

@@SeymourDisapproves I would've been perfectly fine if they did that, but it kept coming up. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too, and every time I thought it was safe to ignore the implications of that ep, it would get brought up again.

@@JeffHPK The most I can see (as an outsider, I've never see the show but having absorbed enough Anime BS) his physical brain got reset, but his memories and experiences stayed with him.

@@SeymourDisapproves I was fine until that episode where Star has to answer a questionnaire to save Marco, and when Marco's parents answered that Marco's age was 15 years old, Star corrected them by saying it was 30, and in the end she was correct.

THIS (not the power imbalance part, not looking at that, but the rest)! THANK YOU! I was SO hoping they'd go somewhere with that, ANYWHERE, but they never did! It was so interesting, could have been, but NOPE! It sucks! X'P

At least Ducktales was great all the way through

One of the only exceptions is Gravity Falls. It stayed exactly as long as Alex needed to tell the story he wanted to tell.

I’d say Kim Possible had a pretty satisfying ending. There’s probably a few other examples, but that one comes to mind.

At least we made Disney regret their decision to cut off the owl House. Twice and I plan to make it a third after the finale in more than a month away

Based on Saber and these comments, its pretty clear Amphibia is still being completely overshadowed by The Owl House despite having a near perfect transition from episodic to plot-driven storytelling and having a near-perfect finale.

Bad fanfiction. I've seen fanfiction that was absolutely great. It's like she looked at some 12 year olds fanfiction and used that because she forgot she needed an ending.

I don't buy it. because you know...they were made out of pure magic!

OMG! What you said is so true 😧 I didn't notice that about Star before

The thing about telling marco is because of what they do in s4, star already knew from the beach day photo, that she and marco would be fine in the future. She knew she'd see him again, and they'd be on good terms, so why not tell him the truth about her crush later? When they're safe? Because she knows they're gonna be right? As she says in s4? By retconning the photo to be from the future, star looks SO much worse in Starcrushed for embarrassing marco and running off in tears despite NOT having to do that. It was a bad retcon and made her look more manipulative then the writers probably intended at the time.

Tom and Marco playing table tennis. What's a better way to have two bros talk? About like a 50-1 game.

I kinda just feel like they shouldn't have made jackie like marco if that wasn't the ship they were going for. They could've made it so marco only thought of her as inspiration and realize that so he would go out with star. I just want whatever ship they start to not just get axed by them. Edit: I was gonna say shouldn't not should.

Honestly star was mentally unstable for seasons 3-4 she had a lot going on in her mind including dating Marco

I'd disagree. Toffee had a great run, and I think he ended at a good moment (evil if the way they killed him off was a bit iffy). There are a lot more ways a series can generate conflict than just personifying it into a villain. If they kept with a racial tensions angle, even if there weren't a big head of all evil, it would have still been a great conflict. The biggest issues were definitely the lean on the excessive shipping and the swerve that was the finale. Also refusing to follow on the sideplots they spent literal seasons building. Like, why?

@@SuperPaperPokemon I agree. I don’t think that Toffee needed to be the final Big Bad but the characters they chose to take his place as main villain had huge issues. Like I don’t think Meteora was horrible, but it also felt like she was just a completely different character from Miss Heinous so it felt jarring when she switched from being someone who was mostly an arch-enemy to Marco to being heavily tied into the lore of the Butterfly family. Like, if they hinted at that more during season two and had her change a bit more gradually I think it could’ve worked, but you ended up with effectively two different characters. And Mina, the Magic High Commission, and a traitorous moon being the final villains of season four was awful. It felt really out of character for Moon, especially considering what happened in season three and early season four. If they tried to foreshadow it better I could possibly get behind Moon’s coup, but Mina was a terrible choice for a final threat. I think they could’ve had her and her monster hatred be a part of the final season, but with her being a minion to a different villain.

It wasnt even bad that elipsa was not evil, but the forc of chaos amd star her baysitter. Like her enging as whatever democratic ruler, and that clipsa was trribl a queen, but a good person. An mina would still b a good finale villain, just have it , make less sudden, the finle did not rule the show, but what a weird way to end it. Ad not because it bad per se, its just a weird end if you dont have a spinof in that world, becaue the finale ends on a weird fuion world that makes only sense, if you hhave a spinoff, way too much new quetion an riorities in th late seasons too. An its not a bad finale, its ut weird to create the entire new conflict and world at the end to, end a show?! Thats just weird.

what's even funnier is that despite literally every other villain getting redeemed, its toffee thats considered irredeemable when he's honestly the most reasonable and justified out of all villains. Lets look shall we? ludo - his motives are concerned with nothing but selfish power, and his 'redemption arc' consists of him simply talking to his brother again and living peacefully. its even hinted that he still wants to harm star/marco all the way into s4 but he gets let off the hook with barely a slap on the wrist. meteora - tortured and brainwashed hundreds of schoolgirls for centuries and went on a murderous rampage. she wants the throne for her own gain and nothing more. what happens? they somehow magically turn her into a baby (with a spell that was allegedly supposed to kill her) and this means she's redeemed - no remorse for her actions even once, but she's a baby now, and we can't hurt a baby (also a horrible message to imply that if you had a bad childhood you can simply regress back into a toddler and relive it instead of working on yourself). mina - self explanatory. racist genocidal maniac who is somehow allowed to walk free despite just trying to kill thousands to millions a few seconds ago. no remorse for her actions. solaria - literally the most problematic character in the entire series, actually committed severe genocide, cleansing, colonizing etc, and is responsible for most of mewni's prejudiced history. no sign of remorse, but oh she smiles tearfully while looking at meteora, so all is forgiven now apparently. toffee - his (successful) kill count is literally one person (comet) which happens OFFSCREEN. and it was politically motivated. in s1 we see that he's acc willing to talk to star, its STAR who resorts to violence immediately. later even he never kills people on pure impulse, he could have killed moon easily but didn't. and when he shut down magic compared to star all it did was weaken the butterfly's magic, not destroy magical creatures like star did. we dont know much abt his motives but they're likely tied to the centuries of prejudice he'd witnessed - ofc he'd want to limit the power of an oppressive colonial kingdom. and how is he seen? oh he's absolutely irredeemable and is burned to death without anyone ever trying to talk to him or understand him. IMO toffee didn't need to be redeemed, he's more fun as a villain but when you stack him up against other villains its really uncomfy how the one (competent) monster villain is seen as a dangerous threat that needs to be eradicated while every other villain gets buckets of sympathy and zero punishment whatsoever.

@@Doug_Edwards99 For season 4, I think they should have written Seth of Septarsis into the show as the final villain. I also wish that they had further explored Toffee’s backstory and motivations before killing him off.

“Coronation” would’ve been a much better ending point for the series in comparison to the shit fest that we got instead. Even with how shitty Season 4 was, it would’ve stopped in its tracks before falling off the cliff with the rest of the series.

@@gauravagochiya4218 And would’ve ended on a high note

Maybe they didn't want to reuse a finale they had already done for season 1

That could be a good ending.

@@locusruizlopez5997 Which is why they didn't do it. Why do the sensible thing when you can condemn all magical creatures to death and sow chaos in every dimension, resulting in untold calamity? You know, like a hero would! :V

The wand can't be destroyed. When Star's first wand got destroyed with that spell, it just came back to star as a meteorite and got fully recovered. The wand also came back when it was destroyed for the second time. The series implies that the wand can be destroyed, but cannot be vanished from reality like some sort of garbage u throw away haha

The threat was Mina and her army using the magic at all. Destroying the wand would be symbolic, but it wouldn’t really do anything besides that. Mina would just bat her eyes, say to herself that Star destroying the wand proves she’s a “monster smoocher”, and continue committing genocide.

yeah.. and fanfic writers really do not need 'open ended' for getting ideas. They are a creative bunch, which is why so many authors and show writers started off in that community.

And you can't force fan content. If people like something, they'll make stuff

@@neeneko I remember there was this one short story we had to read for a literary arts class (forgot if that's actually what it was called...probs not) in junior high, and it's called "The Lady, or the Tiger?" by Frank R. Stockton, and its ending is left intentionally open-ended. Basically, to summarize, dude gets thrown in to a coliseum as punishment for his barbarous rule, and has to choose between two doors: one has a lady behind it, one a tiger. So the project was obviously to write what we, the reader, thought the choice made was.

There's also many fan fictions of close-ended shows that re-envision the ending so that the writer could take it in another direction. The writer often enjoys the canon ending, but wants to play with an alternate story of their own creation. So it's not like fanfic writers force themselves to confirm to the parameters of the canon story.

This is why I've never been much for films, books, or TV shows that go so far out of their way to have these very vague "question mark" endings, where just about everything is left up to the audience to decide for themselves. It's fine to leave the audience with a *few* lingering questions, but these endings, more often than not, just feel highly unsatisfying. At best they're frustrating, and at worst they feel like a complete cop-out, like the writer/director simply couldn't commit to a conclusion.

Definitely not, considering the Day of Unity, which for much of the show was assumed to be exactly that, was rightly portrayed as a bad thing.

I've come from the future don't worry the owl house didn't go that direction

@@Jack-ol1io что и прекрасно

And deleting the concept of magic as well as entire species and places made of it.

@@wantedbird55srandomchannel28 and Luce being completely ok with it lol

Ask the "How I met your Mother" fans.

Thank goodness I wasn’t one of the people who didn’t snap.

What's your favorite star vs the forces of evil character?

As someone once said "Shippers destroy lives."

My farts are better than Saberspark’s farts

Lily Woodrow what's your favorite star vs the forces of evil character?

Nah, there are some crazy fans that defend the hell out of this garbage with the flimsiest defense.

@@joshwright4799 How so? Literally half the show finales or conclusion movies made in the past decade were disappointing. Hmmm, lets see just from the top of my head: - Samurai Jack Season 5 - Castlevania Season 4 - Game of Thrones - Hey Arnold Movie - Rocko's Modern Life Movie - Dexter - Two and a Half Men - Office - Lost The point is, it's very easy to screw things up. So it's no surprising. It would be more surprising if they didn't screw things up.

@@harryshuman9637 you missed Steven Universe

@@Shadowwolf-1337 Didn't watch that !#$%, but yeah I heard something about it being bad too.

Sure but she should have been more reflective on her life.

@@jturner2577 That's the point. She was tired of her life, because she was reflective on it.

Daron said "fix-it fics ONLY"

​@@SeymourDisapproves PFFT

Yeeeaaah, that's the major issue. She didn't really leave much of anything to play with, at all. Star and Marco are endgame, so you can't ship them with anyone else, and anything you do has to go based off of how the show ended. Hekapoo and others are dead, worlds are combined into one, etc. Who would want to write fanfics or draw fanart about that? She doesn't seem to realize she killed the series off for the fans.

Oh it inspired fanfics alright. Just not the kind she was hoping for.

Daron should have just stuck to writing system of a down songs

Meh, he was being ridiculously overdramatic

Daron didn't put Star and Marco together to please shippers. She had them planned from the beginning.

Thank you

Right? What was the point of creating episodes that centered on those creatures when you're just going to get rid of them at the end of the show?

Even Thanos thinks she went too far...

Maybe the army of genocidal rampaging magical knights was a good reason to axe off magic... Or the spells in the wand that could 'destroy everything' if they ever got out. I kinda got vibes that magic was an overall bigger problem than it was worth by the end of the series. It was mostly used by the elite to oppress everyone else.

what was the point of allowing her to get more mature if at the end she would make the impulsive emotional teen choices when she was needed the most? It wouldve been easier if the three of them queens used the destructive spell once more

That's true, but I will never forget the lives of those innocent wand creatures with families.

Don't forget how Marco's cheeks glow just like Star's when he uses magic. They never explained how or why it even happened.

Don't forget setting Marco up with Kelly, and them being a genuinely cute couple with good chemistry... and then breaking them up offscreen mere episodes later.

​@@michaelstrong5383 He just blushes weirdly

There’s also zero call backs to monster arm, like wtf I was really invested into that. Then they wrote out Marco’s two “best friends” because fans complained they were annoying. Seriously they couldn’t have improved their characters and made them more involved. Also I’m still not over the whole Marco being still mentally 30yrs old, has basically lived a second life but returns to earth all unchanged like it’s the status quo

@@orionbelt4013 Or when marco got stabbed by a unicord and he covers it up like it'll be important- I felt the same you felt but for that really.

I'm sorry to hear that was the case. Thanks for sharing regardless.

So that was the reason why the first season looked so different from the rest of the show. With a thicker line art, a more 'fluid' animation and overall more movement. That's such a shame, I wish it stayed like the first season's

If it’s any consolation, your guys’ work was absolutely peak for the series. Gorgeously done.

One day I will have some of my stories animated - I want it done by an awesome team of animators ✨ keep doing good work!

For what it's worth, I prefer the animation from the earlier episodes much better, and you and the team did a fantastic job!

Based bane poster

"ehh, *slobers* excuse me" *pushes aside*, *clunk-clack-click BZZZZZZZZ!!!!* "eehuaah, okay *huff*, good enough, stich is job, unanounced consultant go rest now, see's next season, *heeeh*"

Bring back Bane memes!

Ah, a man of culture. I salute you, good sir. Or should I say, fellow Big Guy?

Baneposting

The pain of shipping. It pretty much damaged Voltron LD beyond repair too

Same here.

My farts are better than Saberspark’s farts

Finally it here the video the videos every one agree to watch Https://ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-U0yMPah-rBU.html

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Exactly. Darren should have focused on making a good story rather than trying to please fans. If she already wanted Star and Marco to be end game then that's what she should have been developing instead of the shipping war that happened at the end

That's just most shows nowadays though, they don't have a clear plan or outline

Yep, writing in that way is how to DESTROY your story.

oh np

@@Alondro77 it's just like how Steven Universe didn't have a clear outline in front of it. It was just a mystery all around bc they wanted to subvert expectations so much

Basically mewmans are doomed. They don't have magic and authorities against monster 's stronger physical attributes and human 's firearms. This aslo will cause years of war from 3 side and without magic, this lovely couple won't stand a chance.

Star and Marco are based on the creators and her husband in that order so of course they would end up together but how she did it was not good.

I would've forgiven the garbage ending if Pony Head were part of the magic genocide. /hj

@@angah82 ...well, that would have made it a LITTLE better.

im glad amphibia has no love interests for anne, not even salsa nd marcy,

​@@tomkatt8274 it can ruin things, that and fans will make their own ships

@@tomkatt8274 lol Salsa

Good god, WHY did they think the "Marco is actually 30" thing was a good idea? It just led to even worse shipping wars!

@@deen7530 IMO that could've been used in an interesting way like actually setting him up with Hekapoo in a stable relationship with viewers discovering how that happened in "filler" episodes about the past. They could've touched upon how his sudden immaturity in the normal realm actually causes problems between them. Hell, he could have had a sidequest about unlock his adult form at will to both solve that issue and become a more useful fighter in the finale. Because seriously, he spent 16 years chasing after her and the fact NOTHING comes out of it is just wasted potential for no reason.

Come on, Jackie and Marco had nothing in common and his simping over her was so annoying. Star and Marco clicked RIGHT away.

Eclipsa was annoying and overrated

@@purpleclaws202 Star was so much worse tho let's be real

@@NaughtsThoughts yeah I can't fight you for that you're right

They even brought up the "Toffee was right." part in the show, but just because it was acknowledged does not make it right, it was still a straight outta nowhere moment that derailed everything.

"The thing about Marco getting old in a second dimension was weird. He was like 20+ in that dimension? And then he comes back to earth and he's technically not a child mentally but is a child? It's weird." They explain that in passing, basically once he left that place, his memory of events just sort of faded away, like a half remembered dream. That's their excuse for why he was basically a action hero in that dimension but just as skilled as he was in the last episode when he returns.

Yeah Kim possible did a real good job of tying up loose ends and plot points by the end of season 4 the only our show i think did that as perfectly was jackie chan adventures which wrapped up all plot and loose ends by its end in season 5.

@@mckenzie.latham91 God I loved Jackie Chan adventures 🤤👌

Also Kim and Ron didn't commit mass genocide.

@@YujiUedaFan Facts.

@@YujiUedaFan Oh yeah, true. *SPOILERS* (Even though this show ended almost 16 years ago 😅) Aside from Ron killing Warmonga and Warhawk in the finale, there were no other confirmed deaths on the show

There was a time when People were comparing Toffee to Villains like Bill Cipher, lord Dominator etc. Such a waste.

I feel like the sailor moon parody character was an ok final villain because she tied into the show’s theme of prejudice against monsters, its just that what they did with her was… less great.

The worst part for me is, he is voiced by the actor who had played Dexter Morgan from Dexter!

They killed what was the main antagonist and honestly a a terrifying villain in episode for out of 21. That's all you need to say

Toffee was dangerous and trying to destroy magic that was used to oppress his people. Gets murdered by Star. Mina was a super speciesist who was trying to commit mass genocide of the entire monster race. She's allowed to skip off by herself with Manfred, not at all punished or imprisoned for her horrifying actions.

@YeaMan gay bot

facts i wish they had 2 more season to flesh out the stuff

Zoha Baig what's your favorite star vs the forces of evil character?

I would say shipping was a negative contribution to the show.

My farts are better than Saberspark’s farts

Moon was a complicated character, I'll give it that. But she has trust issues with Eclipsa if you watched late into S3 she was about to defeat Meteora, Eclipsa's daughter but she stopped her from doing that and indirectly going to the Realm of Magic. Then in S4, she saw how Eclipsa's ruling was putting Mewmans displaced at a disadvantage. Moon knew how to rule Citizens better than Eclipsa can. Her mistake was thinking she had everything under control when teaming up with Mina. Eventually, she was willing to put her differences with Eclipsa aside and help stop Mina and put and end to Magic.

@@dennisscipio I wouldn't really mention anything in S4 as I firmly believe they had already given up on any character development they had put in the story between Eclipsa and Moon, but Moon and Eclipsa in S3 literally BONDED over how much they cared about their daughters and how they meant everything to them. I don't understand why Moon blamed Eclipsa for what happened to her when all she did was try to protect her own daughter, she never could have anticipated how badly that would have backfired nor that Moon would escape to the magic realm and lose her memories for a while. Eclipsa acted purely on instinct to save Meteora and Moon, being a sensible adult who is just as protective of her own daughter, should have understood that it was never Eclipsa's intent to make Moon disappear for months or to even take back the throne.

This is something showrunners have to be careful of if they have an ending already in mind when they start the show. Over time, the show might go in ways they didn't expect, and they have to reassess if the ending still works, or if it needs changing.

Yeah, Star deciding to essentially just genocide all magical beings, really threw me for a loop 😱😰 like was that seriously the best solution she could come up with 😰

Imagine if Gravity Falls built Bill Cipher up as the main villain, but then, after his appearance in the second-to-last episode of the first season, he disappeared and did absolutely nothing for the rest of the show. And now, the real main villain turned out to be Toby Determined, the newspaper editor. That's the best way I can describe Mina in this show.

The get rid of magic part makes sense if you look at it metaphorically. Magic is essentially institutional power that lets those who have it (mewini Royalty and the magic council) subjugate those who don’t (the monsters). So it makes sense to want to get rid of it in that context. It also makes sense since in the larger media landscape. We have a lot of minority villains that are rebuked as “your right but using the wrong methods “ only for the hero to then allow more status quo. It would have been refreshing for the hero to go “your right and your methods other than murder are right”. But the show never established the difference between stars magic, creatures like poneyhead and the magic counsel. To us the viewers ponyhead is magic like heckapoo is magic or the spider-with-a-top-hat is magic. so instead of saying “get rid of abusive systems of power “ it basically said “you’re right (toffee) and murder is an acceptable method of change and civilizan casualties are acceptable too” Like what the heck? Edited for clarity

@@animasuperfreakgirl Yeah, I remember seeing an AMA that asked if Tom lost his portal powers after the finale, but they said that he still has those because "he's still a demon". So those scissors tearing a hole in reality? Magic. Tom creating a burning hellgate to the Underworld? Not magic. That decapitated horse head flying around? Not magic. The rainbows she keeps farting out? Possibly magic. The thing is that magic to most people can be summed up as "things that aren't normally possible", but in the context of the show magic is "this source of power that is being hoarded by a group of mewmans in an allegory for systemic racial inequality". And like you said, they never bothered to actually explain where the line goes between what is and isn't "magic", because it is never brought up in the actual show. Personally I think it would have made more sense for Star to give EVERYONE magic, rather than destroying it. You know, redistributing the power among everyone. Especially since the entire show before the finale had been "magic is awesome and cool", before it switched on a dime to "magic is awful and bad".

yea like cmon, use moon, eclipsa and star the destroying spell just once more, its not that hard

@@youtubewontletme fr! It was not that hard, considering in that book of magical spells, (and the stories of all the previous queens and princesses of muini) show that star and moon have high stats in terms of magic. it wouldn’t have been that hard for moon if star couldn’t have done it. after all Moon has done black magic before. even so I wish it didn’t end with the destruction of magic since there was definitely other ways to handle it.

@@angeltheweirdo yea! Sure there would be a lot of destruction in the way. But make sure everyone is safe beforehand, monsters included. Then do it, the three of them, or just Moon and Star, if Eclipsa is still not recovered. Aim for Mina, (also that crazy girl needs some rest, geez) and some of the others, then you got it. While Moon and Star are recovering from the effort, go get the solarian soldiers that remain, with eclipsa's powers, and put them under arrest. They will try to put up a fight but since their leader and some companions are gone, they will be discouraged. Once all of the Butterflies are fully recovered, use magic to fix all the destruction and return to normality. The end. Happy ending. There is still magic, and they can figure out things together. Now there is no magic, and two big ass dimensions overlaped, which would surely lead to lots of wars around the world between humans, mewmans, monsters.. That could last decades or centuries. If it took forever for Mewmans and monsters to get enough territory for each(which didnt happen because magic was destroyed before they could try a final negotiation) imagine adding humans and the human world to the equation. Its just worse, and no magic to help make things easier, to help build homes wherever needed, to fix the destruction thar will happen at the beginning (cars crashing unicorns for example). Because yea magic can be bad but it can be really good too, and i feel like they didnt come to think about the consequences of the final act.

​@@youtubewontletme Worse. Mina claimed they pledged to Solaria and only she can stop them....well, Solaria's ghost was right there, she could've stopped it all then and there, but they still went ahead to destroy all magic.

Also without magic the US army will take over, meaning everyone associated with monsters and the royal family will likely become prisoners of war.

Awh 😭😭

I love this show so much, very nice story and characters :)

Ok that's adorable

I wish my parents were like that LOL my dad is the stereotypical “every cartoon is a baby show” adult person and will usually lose interest as soon as he sees that something is animated. It’s really sad tbh because he’s missing out on a lot. Ironically, one of the only animated things he will actually be happy about watching….is THE DESPICABLE ME MOVIES. He genuinely likes them but claims not to like “dumb kids cartoons” even tho those are literally the dumbest ones of all. He will be totally fine with watching Despicable Me but if Amphibia or Owl House is on he will look for the first excuse to turn it off😂😂😂

@@kaylasilverstein4137 I prefer animated stuff over live action, it just feels more immersive somehow

Because it's friggin' stupid? The creators said Marco doesn't remember being an adult.

Yeah, I totally forgot about the magic fritz. Ugh that would've been so much more interesting to explore but they forgot about it too ig

I think we even saw that void monster in the season 2 episode "Crystal Clear". It wasn't even a small hint, Rhombulus literally pointed towards the very visible spiraling void in the sky, then told Star: "Oh yeah, there's also that problem" or something along those lines. We were literally shown the final boss of the series, and then the writers tried to brush it off as if it was never there.

@@100lovenana Ok, I rewatched the episode and you were right! They literally pointed out a giant green vortex, said that its going to be a problem, and never brought it up again! What?!?!

UGH, GOD, that would have been SO MUCH BETTER! ;A;

@@keenahgamboa this is Toffe

...what was the other show?

​@@DarkQueenHelba game of thrones lol

@@DarkQueenHelba I think it's Game of Thrones.

​​@@ethank6452 This is one of the most shocking coincidences I've ever seen. Two shows managed to have endings that pissed off everybody at the same time. Unreal.

@@DarkQueenHelba Game of Thrones!

My farts are better than Saberspark’s farts

Levatato

Not to mention that Ludo didn’t play much of a role in Seasons 3-4 following "The Battle of Mewni," and just became a minor incidental character. Even in "Ludo, Where Art Thou?" I initially thought he still wanted to seek revenge on Star and Marco but in the Season 4 episodes, "Princess Quasar Caterpillar and the Magic Bell" and in "Cleaved" he doesn’t focus on Star and Marco anymore but just focus on fixing his relationship with his brother and regaining the castle, which is fine but it just "retcons" the ending of "Ludo, Where Art Thou?"

On one end, it’s clear they didn’t know how he fit into the Eclipsa arc but at the same time Ludo isn’t that hard to throw into a story.

With all the pointless shipping that went no where the fact that the ending was rushed is salt on the wound.

Yes, the magic is in such good hands... good hands to strangle it to death. 😮‍💨

Star destroying magic also makes us question why Toffee was killed off so quickly if he was doing the "right thing" according to the show. It kind of leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, because if they were going this direction anyway, why didn't they just use a perfectly good character to drive this idea further? From Toffee's perspective, magic was being used to kill his people, which is such an organic motivation for him. Star making the same decision last minute after seeing for the longest time all the good that magic can do just feels forced imo.

Honestly yeah that was completely bull shit they only did that just to try and make mina look scary but it made no sense at all

Yeah this is the equivalent of terrorist taking over a city and the attempt for the police force to take it back and arrest the terrorists failed badly. Then there next course of action after the police force failed was to just nuke the whole city, sure all the terrorists will be dead but so will anyone else in the nukes radius.

Would have been way more interesting to instead use Solaria herself to solve the problem, since they see the queens' ghosts in the tavern

they legit had solaria look down on mina like wtf YOU INSPIRED THAT WOMAN HOT TF YUU GET TO CHANGE SHIP????

@@symbiote3220 what? We're discussing how nonsensical it was to have the fact Moon couldn't take back power she gave because they pledged their loyalty to a dead queen.

aaah shipping wars~ takes me back to Naruto where a particular ship got tons upon tons upon TONS of screentime, while the other got ignored and left in the dust, only for that one to become canon and the author saying "the one that got the most screen time was a red herring." never again. >

Eclipsa was such a great character that she stood out, and even felt to me like she was in the wrong show.

@@alvarotavares1966er story line was in the wrong show. The writers were trying to do a fantasy racism narrative about revisionist history, but decided to make it a sub plot to the shipping, while pretending it was the main focus and ultimately cutting their ability to write it compellingly because they were devoting so much time to the will-they-won’t-they romance between Star and Marco. They should have delved fully into Eclipsa and the history of the Butterfly family instead of focusing on romance. It also left me very confused about Star’s magic. Because she was the second most powerful queen in the history of the Butterflys, but wasn’t really one herself. Which makes me wonder where her magic came from? If she isn’t related to the original line, and instead is a descendant of a peasant girl, wouldn’t it make sense for her to have weak magic considering so much emphasis was put on Eclipsa’s power and reinstating the rightful queen? It was just a plot thread I was curious about.

Don't forget Tom

I honestly didn't think that people would get so upset over Marco and Kelly breaking up off screen.

Am of the current opinion that she's the unfortunate victim of a highly successful Multiverse destabilization scheme involving sleeper agents and mind manipulation, especially if said schemers did this so to undo the triumphs against Weirdmageddon and even the war against the Diamonds.

That's why a lot of people ship TomCo