What's the Right Land Count for Commander? 

I started playing Commander with the D&D set last year, so deck building videos are always appreciated! (Moxfield @ 11:16)

I would love to see another 10 episodes of Shuffle Scuffle before the new year, pretty please!

When building a deck, I usually save 36 slots for lands and refine it afterwards. I’m glad to see that it’s seems like a sweet spot for you guys and others.

I was literally going through my land counts this morning....good timing, appreciate it guys - I'm usually between 33 and 35 myself (modals included)

wow! this video.. i've always struggled with this.. really helped out.. I usually use 35 lands at least and have noticed getting mana stuck a lot. The Moxfield mana average section is great.

I counted the decks I had on Moxfield and I average 30.5 lands. Seems about right for me as my curve is way lower at an average cmc of 2.4 . I range anywhere from 27-38 lands in a deck depending on how the deck is structured and what I need most. This is definitely not the normal amount of lands an average deck should have. I play low curve and efficiency so my decks can function on less land in order to mitigate the negative impact of not having enough mana. It does also mean I get hurt the most when mana flooding.

I like the hypergeometric distribution method to determine how many lands you should put in your deck, as well as turn 2 mana ramp cards. Mine came out to 37/11

Love the channel nerds. And you have tapped into niche magic discussions (such as this one). The shorts are great as well (comming from someone who doesnt generally like shorts) Keep up the good work!

36 is my default. Then I judge about going above or below that based on: number of ramp spells, deck curve, commander cost and relevant abilities, and finally how much draw/looting there is in the deck.

30-40 seems fair although it does depend on the type. In my Landfall deck i use 46 lands with Aesi which gives me double land drops and a draw each time. With some large ramp spells that can pull 5-8 lands onto the field and thin my deck before drawing then play impactful spells like tooth and nail or to be able to hard cast huge creatures.

Okay then NN, I'm going to guess on your NEXT video, the Moxfield ad will be at 16:47.

The count changed for me with mdfc's. I was a 36-37 land guy, but I now tend to run closer to 40 since I can literally replace slots with quality cards that also ensure I curve out. I only play three color or less and I don't spin my wheels, so I want to hit a land every turn in the early game without having to jump through hoops. Of course aggro decks and green decks can shave a few.

Moxfield ad guess: 7:17 Edit: so close. I usually start at 40 lands (including mdfc lands) before I even start building the deck, then I go down one land for every three rocks that cost two mana or more, and then one land for every two mana accelerants that cost less than two mana. It usually leaves me at about 36-37, depending on how spiky I feel like being with that deck.

Honestly, I was playing a lot with 33 lands (WITH mdfc). After playing a lot, I'm playing 37-38 Lands unless I've a ton of ramp and mana dork like 13-15 total. There is nothing worse than having a bad hand, then mulligan and still having a bad one again.

Awesome video, I needed this, regardless of my deck I always make sure the land count and mana base is well made, it's the most important part of the deck imo

My core decks average land count is 33 (including MDFCs), going as low as 31 But those include a treasure deck (Negan), legendfall (Reki, the History of Kamigawa) and reanimator (Karador, Ghost Chieftain); decks that have ways to mitigate the risk of low land counts.

It’s also important to play your deck and see how it runs. I have a mono G Ghalta deck that runs 32 + 2 0mv rocks and an average MV/CMC of 3.7, but it runs a LOT of ramp, especially in the 1 drops.

Finally started using Moxfield and love it so much! Got all my decks loaded and starting on my trade binders. It’s super awesome and wished I had done it sooner

I’ve been thinking about this for my Ur Dragon deck all day… thank you for the information as always. You guys are awesome!

This is probably one of the best videos when it comes to land counts in Commander that I've seen. You shouldn't set an amount of lands for every one of your decks. That being said, I think the best way to figure out how many lands you need in a deck is to go with 35. Then play a few games, if you seem mana hungry, add lands, if you seem flooded, remove some. Over time from doing this you'll get a decent balance of lands. It just takes time. The following are some stats from my own decks. My average CMC across 17 decks is 3, the average land count is 34. My lowest average CMC is 1.93 with 30 lands (Meria with 7 fetch lands, $698), my highest is 4.2 with 29 lands (Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, $1787). My lowest land count is my Daretti, Scrap Savant ($1470) deck with 28 lands and an average CMC of 3.65. In that deck my goal is to just to play mana rocks, toss my high mana cost artifacts in the graveyard and then cheat them out. It makes it where I almost never paying full mana for a spell. My highest land count is Korvold($1276), with 40 lands and an average CMC of 3.12. That is including 13 fetches for the sac triggers and draw. The last time I got mana screwed was playing my The Scarab God deck ($1314). The average CMC is 2.84 CMC with 35 lands. I got a total of 2 lands in six turns and managed to win on turn eight from combat damage in a 3 player game. Rarely do I get overally mana flooded, because I run enough draw that I can compensate for the lands and just end up discarding them if they aren't needed.

I had someone say 50 lands in a deck, I then played against them, a board wipe later and they just drew land after land. He was saying how low my land count was. I had 36 lands and 2 mdfcs.

When building I always plug in my mana base pretty much first with 37. Then when I get my first 100 I check the curve and subtract lands if it's a low curve. My lowest is Edric at 34. My Lord Windgrace and my Birgi burn decks both have 40. Windgrace is lands matter and Birgi has a bunch of X spells. I count MDFC's as spells first and don't include them in my land count. However if I draw them in my opening hand I play the land side.

35-37 depending on CMC of the deck. Plus 10-15 ramps cards. I think it's important for any commander deck to have half of your deck, or little under to be lands and ramp. You'll have smoother plays for sure.

All 10 of my decks run 30-33 lands (the 2 with 33 include Maze of Ith) and 10+ pieces of 2 drop or less ramp. To be fair though all my decks are 3+ colors, run all their off-color fetches, and have pretty optimized mana bases (minus OG duals). I also pay attention to my mana curve and avg. cmc with all my decks coming in between 2.5 and 2.9.

I base land base off first style of play, casual, higher power, or cedh. I typically run 28-34 depending on the style of play but typically run a minimum of 10 rocks and maximum 14

I still say you can shave a few lands if you run a whole ton of otherwise bad lands, like bounce lands, storage lands, Myriad Landscape-esque lands, the Karoo cycle, there are so many lands that can play better than you'd expect in a clunkier deck, give some storage lands a try in a two colour deck.

The mana value changing part of Moxfield is amazing. Whole site is.

I basically run 40 with 10 mana rocks in every deck (with 3-15 fetch lands and a wayfarers bauble, for deck thinning) but I also tend to favor commanders with strong card draw and search engines, or lots of mana sinks

I run about 28-30 lands in my Kozilek deck. You can obviously run less when half of the remaining 70 cards are mana rocks. And colorless is cool because your lands can help make up for the loss of colored effects.

I'm not very tech savvy, but I have my decks on Moxfield and have tried to tinker. A little video on some tips and tricks one day would be great! Don't know if that's possible or not? Either way keep the streak going! 💪

When you say lands does that meam Basic lands with no added effects? Or do things like nomad outpost or Bloodfell Caves count as well? I'm working with 21 basic lands and the rest are those extra effect types, either or mana, and so on to a total of about 40 ways to get land.

Would love to see you guys do a video sharing your personal tips and tricks to optimize your use of Moxfield

Hi! new to magic, how do mdfc work? you can cast them as lands and then as spells? do you have to choose wich side to play when deckbuilding? thanks for the help!

When building decks I like to count ramp as half a land and aim for a number around 40.

Quick question, when calculating average cmc of a deck should I be including the lands or not including the lands?

I have a Yarok deck that's got about 39 to 41 lands because of it being a landfall/permanent based deck. Most of my decks run 32-36 either way and I've seen one of my decks(which is my teetering cEdh deck) have less than 30 which worried me so I edited it a little.

I have a general starting chart for lands. It flexible based on deck, but this is how I start 2C w G - 36 2C no G - 37 (Not RW) 3C w G - 37 3C no G 38 4C w G - 38 WUBR - 39 5C - 39 RW - 40

Whats the right land count for commander? Depending on the Average CMC of your deck and the CMC of your commander. I tend to go for 35-40, av:37 with my standard ramp package of 7-10 cards averaging 2 cmc each. 3 examples of my decks with quite different strategies and land bases: - My lowest deck is 33 lands, FBL-OOPS Mono Blue, the low land count is fixed via card draw in general. - My highest is 40 lands, Korvold Landfall. LOL I recently added the Cultivator Colossus combo to draw out my deck for lots of landfall triggers and a well played Concordant crossroads to make my army of landfall tokens have haste... last game I got Scute Swarm to 100+ tokens in a single turn and swarmed my opponents. - My Raggadragga deck is 35 lands, mana dork tribal X spells. I could probably lose 2 more lands but I don't like being too dependent on one thing or another, 35 seems like a good balance. X spells are great for Raggadragga because they are variable in cmc, they can be used pretty much anytime, your not stuck with high cmc spells in your hand yet you can still cast the X spell for 7 cmc and trigger Raggdragga. According to the Prof. Tolarian academy your average commander deck should: Land: 37-38 Ramp:10+ Draw:10+ Removal: 6-8 Single target, 5 min boardwipes Creatures: 25+ Good video I was going to suggest a video about High cmc commanders and how to build accordingly. I have seen so many comments about high cmc commanders not being viable, they are fine you just have to build your deck a little differently like setting up an early game or boardwipes that will help your late game commander :P

As a guy who mostly plays W/U/x value piles 37 or 38 is usually my sweet spot Pack enough early card draw to make sure I hit the critical land drops, and put enough utility in the mana base to keep my mana busy during a flood.

Really depends on power level and number of mana rocks. CEDH i run 28-32 and regular EDH i run 33-35 plus mana rocks for both.

Appreciate the VIDS - would you rather have Purphoros, God of Forge your Commander or Lathis in a mono red dragon deck?

Just for clarification, do you count mana value with land or without land on Moxfield?

I run 40 to 45 depending on curve. I have a few decks that run 33 to 36 but I've found that more has been better as of late.

When you guys talk about the average mana value, are you referring to the "including lands" or the "without lands" version? cause moxfield shows both

I start with a 35 base line, then look at the average curve of my deck (minus the lands) and then add or subtract based what that number is. If it's less than 3.0, remove 1 land for each .5 it is. If it's above 3.5, add one for each one it is. This doesn't take into account for landfall decks.

I want to shout out the Ixalan flip lands. The white one is good ramp in white, and the tokens it makes can be turned into angels with the enchantment. Treasure map is the best, and if used with smothering tithe it is an excellent source of card draw in white

So last night was my first time using Moxfield and no lies were told!!! I managed to brew a new deck in less than an hour!!!!!!! I didn’t even get to tinker with the tabs yet so I’ll make sure to take that force of will down to 0👍🏽

I have a lord windgrace deck with 50 lands. 6 cycle, 3 channel, a couple draw cards, some are fetches and a couple are win cons.

Went and checked my decks with the fixed mana costs (didn't know that was an option, really useful) I have a mill deck with an average cost of 1.82, I thought 31 lands with 4 DMC was too few but maybe I can run even fewer??

Your commander definitely matters when weighing your aCMC - my Grenzo cheats creatures with massive cmc's in for 2 generic. while my Anje has 2 special considerations: madness means a much lower true cmc, and her whole thing is tossing cards until a win-con pops up, so I really just need to make sure I have consistent gas for the engine at hand, which is basically my point, so... ... great video guys!

Great content! Most of my decks have 37 lands including MDFCs. I have trouble finding that 3rd MDFC that really fits the deck, but I don't have any green decks yet.

I try and avoid lands that come into play tapped, which is my gripe against MDFC’s. I still run a few and consider them in the same category as Cycle lands.

When using "average mana value" do you look at with lands or without lands? Cause sometimes my without lands mana value will be like 3.9 and with lands is 3.2

One of the little pleasures of running a Yuriko deck is knowing you only ever really need 3 mana: one to cast an unblockable dork, and the other 2 to ninjutsu Yuriko. Everything else is just kinda icing on the cake, lol. :^)

From my personal experience with one free mulligan there is rarely any reason to ever run more than 34 lands. Pretty much all my decks run 32-34 lands (2.7-3.2 cmc) and I have very good experience when playing all of them. I have one clunky 35 land Timmy deck, but that one is just goofiness. Ramp is usually about 10 and I run 0 mana ramp in like 1 of 10 decks, yes I have a lot.

In 2 color i usually run 37 with 6 mdfcs, but then i like go out of my way to not run etb tapped utility lands aside from mdfcs.

It would be very nice to know how many ramp spells (signets etc) do you play on avg with your avg Lands? :)

I usually run 32 for my low cmc decks and 35 for my midrange since I run 10-15 2drop mana rocks/ramp I'm rarely if ever mana short

The correct number is deck dependent. In a deck like Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire if I don't hit 6 mana by turn 4 then I'm not going to have a good time 39-40 feels like its enough. On the flip side, if i open more than 3 lands in Zada, I don't have enough business spells to even do what the deck needs to do.

Does the Moxfield average lands in opening hand count MDFC lands or just strictly land cards?

So, before i watch fully. I saw a table on reddit where someone did the math on the statistics and percentages for optimal lands in a deck. 36 was the best optimal number from it. If i can find the link i sent to my friend, i can send it to anyone interested

My deck is a cmc of 2.7 not reducing things like blasmouous act or reduced costs on cards… im running i think 33-34 lands, but im thinking of going one more lower to add in one more mana elf… what do

How does ledger shredder work with no max hand size? Do I have to discard?

An equation of such that I try to utilize L=lands M=mana rock/dork R=ramp spell C=(colors - green) B= base 50 lands A= average (cmc/mana value) D= card draw ÷ 3 (B - R - M) + C + (A × 0.5) + D = L (50 - 7 - 15) + 4 + (3 × 0.5) + 3 = 36.5

Can you guys do like a visual tutorial type video of the "more advanced" features of moxfield?

I don't have a landfall deck, so my go to land count is 35 with a couple MDFC lands in the 35.

All true, I am having a hard time getting my Feldon of the Third path deck to run as smoothly as possible.

My Feldon deck can run smoothly with 33 lands. If you have enough rummaging or wheel effects, you don't need to bother with land drops. Feldon is also cheap, so most of the extra land is relatively useless.

Nowadays I have a better respect for lands so typically run 35-38 depending on commander cost but ususlly don't go under 35. The ONLY exception was my higher powered magda deck because she only costs 2 and creates treasures.

I need Cherries to start saying “Wellllcome to Nitpicky Nerrrrdddsss” again.

How many tap lands do you play on average? How many are utility lands? Just curious.

I can just picture Jimmy Wong furiously writing notes on this one.

My personal rule of thumb (let me know if it's crap) is: 40 land starting base For every 2 cards of ramp, remove 1 land. This could be anything from rocks to growth. Minimum 33 lands (one in three).

My landfall deck is gonna run like 45-46. My lathril deck is 34-36. I'd say low cmc with ramp can go as low as 32. High cmc I'd say at least 36 or 37.

I aim for 38 to 40... usually I run 60 cards with about 30 being a mix of ramp draw and interaction. 30 being deck related, then commander plus sol ring plus 38 lands

Exact video I needed right now. Like you read my mind.

I usually make my High power decks with like 30-32 lands but all my mid-power decks are land decks so they run like 40 Cedh standard is ~27+2mdfc

I find myself being super greedy. I run around 33 and 5 color is my favorite to run 🤣 the crazy thing is I don't struggle as much as you would think because of correct fixing and ramp

love the new lighting!

I need Amber cat tokens for my Rin and Seri deck. I use between 34 and 36 unless it's a landfall deck then it's 40+

I have 39 lands in my scarab god deck. It’s hard to cut some of these sweet lands :)

7:03 Does it count if we guess at some point in the add, or does it have to be when the add starts to nail it? Lol

Honestly the numbers that I'm seeing is crazy to me, I run between 28 and 33, I'm usually playing just fine, I also run a bunch of ramp usually though aswell (artifacts, mana dorks, and ramp spells too)

My Eight-and-a-Half-Tails deck runs 31 lands (low to the ground average mana cost, LOTS of land search/ramp) and my Azusa and Kozilek deck each run 39 on the highest end. So many different things in the 99/98 can vary the ideal number of lands in a deck let alone something as important as what the Commander itself is. Crunching numbers and actually playing are super important to the process of figuring out how many lands to run, and information sources like the Nerds are huge aids, especially for newer players. Good stuff!

Due to me aggressively mulling (even down to 5) and having a bunch of tutors (sword of the animist, tithe, land tax etc) my medomai deck ends up being at like.. 28-29 lands?

Treasure decks, especially mono color decks (Magda for example) needs much fewer lands, I have 32 in my Magda deck.

Moxfield gives two average mana values: one that includes lands and one that does not include lands: "The average mana value of your mainboard is 2.4 with lands and 3.22 without lands. This deck's total mana value is 238." I use the one the includes lands but I don't know if that's correct.

I know this is controversial, but I consider hitting your land drops to be completely different than ramping. Ramping costs mana and gets the attention of your opponents (even if you are just trying to keep up with them), while hitting your land drops is free and normal. I even have opponents that will interact with my green ramp after I've missed land drops, because they assume I'll eventually catch up at some point. I wouldn't really add more ramp with the intention of running fewer lands unless my deck had some crazy synergy with the way I am ramping, or I had major color fixing needs. I think card draw is more effective at letting you successfully run fewer lands, since you see more of your deck in general, and it can find you something to mitigate the attention you are going to get. A lot of this comes down to playstyle and meta, but I figured I'd throw this idea out there. My general/generic land count is 37, while I have higher power decks with curves of 2.4-2.6 that run 33 or 34. I have a Kamiz Obscura Oculus deck that only runs 33 as well, since Connive lets me sift through my deck so much and I want to make sure I can take advantage of the ability (Raffine or Kamiz are great commanders for people who want to successfully get away with running a scandalously low number of lands btw 😉).

Esper how many lands does esper needs I need to know because my aminatou deck sucks at fixing and ramping

Huh, I start at 35 and increase/decrease by 1 for every 0.2 MV above/below 3.0 average MV. Works for me!

I often have 34 to 37 lands in most decks Less if you have cheap consistent ramp and or card draw and artifact mana More if you have landfall or lands matter decks

Working on "tuning up" my demon tribal deck now that there's a reasonably good commander for it... average casting cost not including lands? 3.75. Demons are filled with a bunch of clunkers! That's only at 23 creatures too which feels light.

also, how do we count flip lands from ixalan ?

from experience playing edh cedh. 26 to 30 lands regular edh 34 land based decks 36 to 40

Do the “quality” of the lands count? Untapped v. Tapped; colorless utility, field of the dead, etc.?

Oh and the moxfield promo is definitely at 4:20. Could never cheat on this, it's almost as serious as a game of magic. 😂

when you say "play 35 things that are lands with 3 mdfcs" do you mean including 3 mdfc's or 3 additional mdfc's?

Joe physically creams himself over moxfield and moans into his mic at 4:36

I average between 33-35. Except in K’rrik, I only have like 25-27 in that one.

The “Saved It” earned you guys a new Patron. Love you guys! 😂