What the "Red Pill" Gets Wrong (with Jordan Cooper) 

Take the Christpill

Hearing Trent say “looksmaxxing” was a mental flashbang.

Trent has been on an “anti red pill” crusade recently and I’m loving it

I love these inter-denominational dialogues you’ve been having, Trent!

Please pray for Catholic women I know and myself to be blessed and to also be blessed with virtuous Catholic men, but that we also become virtuous women.

I'm so tired of people bringing up Tate in a good light. The man is cringe incarnate.

It's great that, in addition to debates, there is also cooperation with Protestants. Now with Lutheran Jordan B Cooper and later this week with Gavin Ortlund on the Old Testament and slavery. While our differences are important, so are our commonalities.

Since you are talking about different cultures. From a 43 year old stay at home mom and wife from Norway: A high value man to me, is a man like my husband. He is a kind, honest, hardworking blue collar man who prides himself on self in helping others. He would give you the shirt on his back if you asked for it. He also spent his young years with different priorities than his buddies. When they chased all kinds of woman all the time, he looked for that special one. He wanted a family and got that. We have been together now for 20 years. Married for 15 and has 4 kids. He is happy with what he has and don’t sit around complaining about what he hasn’t got. He is not rich in money, but he is wealthy in love. In morals and in loyalty around him. Something he got for being a good man. God, family and country. Being kind and honest attracts kind and honest.

Horn and Cooper both in a pod, I’m pumped

Red pill? Blue pill? Black pills? Take a chill pill

"A major national survey of Americans’ social networks conducted last year revealed that Americans’ social circles were contracting. Nearly one in five Americans reported having no close social connections, a double-digit increase from 2013. And young men are faring worse than most: More than one in four (28 percent) men under the age of 30 reported having no close social connections1." So if you have no social network, big surprise you're not going to find a significant other. I'm surprised they haven't even mentioned that.

As a Catholic, very happy to see Dr. Jordan and Marlon's perspective. Trent Horn great as always. Glad you all are talking about this.

It’s important to note that depending on the context, being “redpilled” can refer to antifeminism or to being converted from liberalism to conservatism.

No joke I got married at 22 but dated before that and I can honestly say that my wife was the only woman I was a gentleman to before marriage which lead to us getting to know each other more deeply and quickly Dr. Your spittin fax

I’m so glad Trent said how women control access to sex and men access to marriage. It is a simple truth that way too many conservatives and Christians don’t acknowledge or are too afraid to say in these debates.

The thing about nerds is so true. I hear people talking about how the guy has to be six feet tall, make this much money, have this physiwue, etc. I'm over here playing Dungeons and Dragons with my husband and our married friends.

What we need is follow Christ and what the Church teaches. We have a loy of work to do, guys.

10:36 Exactly! "those who rule their temper, better than the conqueror of a city" (Pro 16:32).

Your analysis of pride was really great. Glad you pointed that out.

I like that people are coming together on these interdenominational topics. However, we need to go deeper to the root cause if we expect to see real change. Any view of man (anthropology) and ethics that is not rooted in both God's teaching (Bible AND Church) and the natural law will always lead to the same confusion we see in the world today. Sadly, the majority of the move away from the natural law was due to the Protestant Revolution. Martin Luther was very vocal in his disdain for the both the Catholic Church and the teaching of Aristotelian-Thomistic natural law and his views started the decoupling of any binding force on the common person to the natural law. Ultimately, there is nothing that binds the Protestant to the natural law view of what it means to be human and ethics. They are free to reject it and basically all Protestants did somewhere in the past leading to the point where no one in the mainstream culture has any idea what the natural law is, let alone follows it. Dr. Cooper has his finger on the pulse of a lot of problems with conservative reactions to liberal ideas, however he fails to recognize the fact that Protestantism gave us this world that has forgotten the natural law. Even though he loosely argues for some of its tenets (i.e. calls himself a classical theist), he denies the binding force of the Catholic Church on issues of morality and therefore cherry picks which aspects of the natural law he wants to follow. This is, of course, true for all Protestants. Each person is their own Pope when it comes to issues of morality. Case in point is Dr. Cooper's view on contraception. We can't expect the world to view love, marriage, and family appropriately when all forms of Protestants are so divided on the basics of the very essence of what constitutes love, marriage, and the family as the natural law does. Again, I am glad that there is some agreement as to errors we are facing from both the liberal world and the conservative world, but the real problem is not being addressed. Natural law is binding on everyone, Catholic, Protestant, and non-believer alike. Until Protestantism recognizes its part in the rejection of the natural law and returns to its full acceptance, we will not make progress in reestablishing what love, marriage, sex, and family truly are.

I'm gonna be honest- I'm a single, never been in a relationship, 21 year old Catholic guy.... And I've never, ever been remotely interested in anything the so-called 'Red-Pill' movement has ever had to say. Notwithstanding the toxicity inherent in that movement towards women that many across the political spectrum and of various religious backgrounds have commented on, I just never found anything they said to be interesting enough for me to actively pursue researching it. That's because the masculinity embodied by Jesus Christ and presented to me by all the male role models in my life, (parents, family friends, priests, and even fictional heroes) have all shown me what it means to be a man without having to rely on rigid gender stereotypes or degrading the inherent dignity of our sisters in Christ and humanity. So instead, whenever I hear about the Redpill movement or the 'manosphere', I simply say a quick prayer for their conversion, and I move on with my day.

Love you Trent!!!! Thanks for all you do.

Love this. Dr. Cooper is one of my favorites, so it's exciting to see you working with him. In my opinion, he is the most formidable Protestant (sorry Dr. Ortlund), and it's because he is willing to grant far more of the tradition than Baptists are, so it's a much more honest take on the historical data.

I didn't know who Marlon Wilson was last month, but he's been cranking out some bangers by pulling people together to chat. Leads the discussion without making it about himself, sharp bloke, seems wise... You love to see it.

I love this. Trent, thank you for bringing light to this very important issue.

8:14 Which is the exact OPPOSITE. Men should dress well, have good fitness, be athletic and use their intellectual abilities for the positive good of society. And that starts at home with the wife and kids. Providing, protecting, leading at home and then the community. In that order.

Having actually read what the RedPill was about back in 2014, when it was a subreddit on Reddit, it's crazy to see how big a phenomenon this has eventually become.

Trent absolutely eviscerated that poor girl. I was embarrassed for her.

You Three Amigos here are the definition of true High Value Men. ❤

The red pill is that relationships are already messed up you’re just realizing how bad it’s gotten. A lot of red pillers lament the implosion of traditional marriages.

Thank you, for this conversation! I feel like I am listening in on a wonderful after-dinner conversation among friends. Very interesting and thought-provoking topic!

I love these productive ecumenical conversations and efforts ❤️✝️

Remember when guys and girls just met, hung out, fell in love, married, and had families?

I've never seen the matrix so that's actually a pretty helpful definition.

Love the three adult and healthly minded men discuss this topic ❤❤ GBU

_Unwin also stated "In the past, too, the greatest energy has been displayed only by those societies which have reduced their sexual opportunity to a minimum by the adoption of absolute monogamy (para. 168). _*_In every case the women and children were reduced to the level of legal nonentities, sometimes also to the level of chattels, always to the level of mere appendages of the male estate._*_ Eventually they were freed from their disadvantages, but at the same time the sexual opportunity of the society was extended. Sexual desires could then be satisfied in a direct or perverted manner... _*_So the energy of the society decreased, and then disappeared."_*_ He points out that "No society has yet to succeeded in regulating the relations between the sexes in such a Way as to enable sexual opportunity to remain at a minimum for an extended period." - _*_and thus all societies have collapsed._* - J. D. Unwin, _Sex and Culture_ circa 1930s 💊

a cross over a didnt know i needed, would love to heard you and dr. cooper dialogue more even outside of a debate you two could have some amazing discussions

Thank you for explaining “the red pill”

Thank you. This heals the soul to hear!

With Myron the problem is even though he’s not practicing, a lot of his views are basically facets of Islam coming through the podcast.

Oh Laura Horn is hilarious! He got 'em with that point.

I am Catholic. Trent said “its sad men think women are just a proxy child, she’s the oldest of the children” 1:10:25 This is what I think because my interactions with women have affirmed this belief. I want to overcome this thinking but the waves of reality have already hardened my heart. Thank you for giving more for introspection

Thank you for covering this topic, Trent! If I may, I think this is a good masculine Bible verse I hope you enjoy, and hopefully helpful relevant quotes, Bible verses, and prayer. Timothy 6:11 "But you, man of God, avoid all this. Instead, pursue righteousness, devotion, faith, love, patience, and gentleness." "If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children." -St. Basil the Great A Prayer to St. Joseph, Defender of Life Dearest St. Joseph, at the word of an angel, you lovingly took Mary into your home. As God’s humble servant, you guided the Holy Family on the road to Bethlehem, welcomed Jesus as your own son in the shelter of a manger, and fled far from your homeland for the safety of both Mother and Child. We praise God that as their faithful protector, you never hesitated to sacrifice for those entrusted to you. May your example inspire us also to welcome, cherish, and safeguard God’s most precious gift of life. Help us to faithfully commit ourselves to the service and defense of human life -especially where it is vulnerable or threatened. Obtain for us the grace to do the will of God in all things. Amen Saint Joseph is the patron saint of the Universal Church, unborn children, fathers, a happy death, immigrants, workers, and travelers. Matthew 20:21 Such was his intention when, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home. For it is through the holy Spirit that this child has been conceived in her. She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” “If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other.” -Saint Mother Teresa of Calcutta John 17: 20-21 '“I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me." God bless you and your family, Trent!

Fantastic discussion!

Really appreciate this video.

Definitely spent about 45 minutes wondering why the background is a bunch of hot dogs…

A high value man is a man who identifies as a high value man

The red pill/manosphere men act like a bunch of teenage boys who need to grow up and stop having a peeing match with each other. They’re leading many young men astray. Thank you for discussing this and giving a positive role model for young men out there.

Just got the end where a poll was done on how many wanted Trent and Jordan to do a debate w/ some red pill bro's. 89% I think it was. They did not at all look enthused, but it would be great. Jordan doesn't do debates I think he said, and Trent looked like he was in psychic pain most of the time debating w/ Pearl. This movement is horrible, likely worse than feminism at this point, because most feminists will still get married and have kids, they just don't want any kind of traditional marriage. Most aren't total nihilists, which is what red pill is turning into. This movement has been infiltrated and steered to what it is. I remember what red pill used to be, and now mgtow pretty much took it over, w/ some twists.

I guess that's one definition of "red pill". It's a nebulous term though.

How about you all contact Rollo and go on his show to discuss these concepts?

This is a great discussion

I like Dr. Jordan Cooper. Lot of worthwhile content he puts out, even for Catholics.

42:35 the question was what is a man who is high value marriage material. Marlon's answer is to look at the qualifications of a bishop, which includes being married with children 🤦‍♂️

Thank you for sharing what a real man should be.

I don't understand what Trent means by "extracting value" from someone. What does that mean?

Can someone explain to me the difference between “the pursuit of being a high value man” and “the rat race?” Because I don’t see it.

It's really hard to navigate the two extremes when it comes to masculinity. Being on the internet and seeing people completely reject and make fun of masculinity, insecurity and absence of male role models in your life can relly mess you up. I chosed the other extreme and rejected anything masculine in me (not trans and not necessarily to get laid but I thought that that is the moral thing to do).

"No fart divorce" 1:16:44

Tomasi isnt his real name of course, and he’s a graphic design guy with a BA in psych, but not an evolutionary biologist or psychologist, AND had a child and he’s married. So there’s that. So I think his tweet was speaking mostly to a *21st Century American* cultural context for hierarchies, not a universal one.

Working in youth ministry is necessary, but marriage and family ministry is more important in the long run

On recent debate, Andrew Wilson defends Red Pill ideology saying that its message has nothing wrong and that it has nothing to do with the behavior of the advocates of that ideology. How positive would it be a debate between you and Wilson on this topic, it would be very enlightening for everyone.

I found a lot of the red pill speakers to have rather attractive worldviews, even after converting. Luckily, the catholic church is responsible for creating great figure heads like Trent to challenge whatever preconceived notions I held. Thank you for your work Trent, I hope I get to speak to you on the Catholic Answers podcast sometime.

27:38 “Man Trent’s really done his homework” is what I thought to myself.

53:59 "sterilize yourself if you're based and redpilled" sounds like Darwinism

The video quality gives me 2005 bosnian tv program vibes

Someone needs to interview Francis Cardinal Arinze to get his thoughts on the TLM and it's cultural revolution in the US and his thoughts on the Novos Ordo and church growth outside of the west. He is one of the few living bishops of the second Vatican Council

27:37 Trent Horn says looksmaxxing

Trent said marlon “Williams” at the beginning. Lol

Weird, this is not what I've understood these terms to mean. The way my friends, family, and myself have generally used these terms is entirely political and not referring to ideas about masculinity or sexuality. Good on you Trent for calling Tate out for the monster that he is.

Question for Trent’s viewers: Should I watch the Pearl debate? I love Trent’s debates but Pearl is such a frustrating person to listen to that I’m not sure it would be beneficial

Makes sense why Andrew Converted to Islam. That faith aligns more with his views. I love the Tate Brothers and im praying for their Conversion to Catholicism. ✝

Thank you for talking about this. Men need men telling them the truth about this topic.

Not going to lie, for the last few days I thought those were hot dogs in the thumbnail...

Boosting the positive view count. Good job.

3 Chads talking about marriage and Christ, just guys being dudes

Im a big fan o chivalry but since i dont have a book on that im reading bushido the soul of the samurai altough it has budhism in it i philter it and there are lot of similarities between bushido and chivalry

Tate and other red pill characters identify real problems and provide false solutions.

I recommend Master Samwise’s channel for great videos on the virtues of masculinity and femininity.

"I get hit on when im wearing my wedding ring." "This means good things for society" did he not hear himself when he said that?

I was part of the red pill movement when it was first coined circa 2005-2015. Rollo Tomassi and I were moderators on the same forum. In the early days it had a more positive slant and gave room for monogamy, men who were married or wanted to get married, but it has long since become a toxic, self-serving ideology. They do get SOME things right---the current moral landscape is awful, and the quality of BOTH sexes as potential marriage partners has declined with it. But redpillers are just self-preservationists, and ultimately part of the problem. It's hedonistic nihilism cloaked in "self-improvement". Get your sex, avoid all risk, get rich and prosperous. But that's where it ends. There is no spiritual maturity to be found there. No self-sacrifice for the good of others, which is the Christian view of marriage.

Id love to see Trent take this debate to Andrew Wilson. Again, Wilson is not redpill he and his wife are Orthodox and also bat for Pearl, BUT he makes argument on how conservatives and xtians miss the mark on all of this.

love it

Debate Nick Fuentes.

We need Christian unity. We can discuss our differences, but if we seperate, we will lose this war.

Debate Andrew Wilson who’s actually a trained and experienced debater rather than Pearl

Before taking any of these colored pills, I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over.

The problem is that no boy or young man wants to be like this folks at all. Mainly because hot girls wouldnt choose this guys at all anywhere, but maybe in church.

Can't we get anyone competent on to discuss these ideas with Trent Horn and others in the Pseudotrad sphere? The redpill is not ideological. It's a general term that refers to an understanding of sexual interdynamics that holds that men and women have particular sexual strategies that they implement in order to gain an advantage for themselves and that these strategies have general patterns that are observable. What one does with that knowledge is a whole 'nother issue. The reason why the red pill imagery is used is because for a lot of men, once they understand how women behave and what they generally look for in their sexual relationships, their original view of women being just "sunshine and rainbows" is shattered. They realized they have been deceived for almost their entire lives and so in a sense, their old world view shatters.

Trent is right. Women want nerds.

Trent might be catholic, but he walks the talk, and that is exactly what Christ called us to do.

"Just serve women, live your life to serve" Really? Here we can realize that your points of view over this theme is pure ideologic. You put the christian premises above the reality itself. Living to serve women was precisely what men have being doing since ever and that was precisely what we observed that was wrong about our approach.

I have literally never heard of red pills being equated to relationships between the sexes. Red pilling is about embracing conservative vs. progressive ideas.

What happens when you take the purple pill?

No one on this panel understands what 'high value man' means in the red pill context. It means sexually desired in and outside of a relationship. Not desired for a relationship, desired sexually whether in a relationship or not. The Jack Black example clearly demonstrates the issue. If the women say that they want Jack Black because he is good with kids, but don't say they want Jack Black to sleep with them, then it is clear that Jack Black is the ideal man... for playing with kids. Not the ideal man.. for getting into bed as fast as humanly possible. Trent gave the example of what women want in a future committed 'partner' (because modern women want a partner not a husband), but that would be what women want men to provide them outside of sex. The value proposition Trent is evaluating is what do women want men to provide them in a relationship, outside of sex, where as the value proposition of the 'high value man' in the redpill is what traits make women want men to sleep with them even without the faintest possibility of a relationship being on the table, as well as, what makes a woman want a man to sleep with her while in a relationship as well. Trent is at a board meeting talking about how beneficial a product will be for the environment and how much improvement it will bring to the customers life while the rest of the board members just want to know how rich they are about to be when the product launches. If it doesn't result in massive profits, who cares? If it doesn't translate to sexual access to beautiful women, then who cares?

Take the Purple Pill instead

Red pill, Blue pill, Purple pill etc. content is for those who are living their lives based upon WORDLY standards. And it helps them navigate it. Those who live their lives based upon CHRIST standards quickly find out all that red pill or blue pill content does not apply to them. Put more emphasis in showing people that living under CHRIST standards is much more fulfilling. Then you’d see the decline of red pill/blue pill culture.

this new redpill meaning is cringe im redpilled i dont believe in laissez-faire economics or social issues

The RP online space has existed for over twenty years and will continue for decades. It has been around longer than tradcons and will he here when tradcons are done grifting. It's only intent is to help men invest more in themselves and bettering their own lives. Nothing more, nothing less. If you don't or can't understand this, stop talking about the RP. It's not going anywhere. It's here to stay.

34:15 Regarding hypergamy, due to what women and men traditionally find attractive, it can look like only one side is being hypergamous.