What Was Paul's Thorn in the Flesh? 

Dr. Tabor, as an expat myself, I'm intrigued by Saul/Paul the Greek, Jewish, Roman citizen who emigrates to the Jewish homeland to study the Torah, the eternal outsider wherever he is. He must've suffered from a pervasive inferiority complex that would've driven him to constantly strive to overachieve to compensate, also in regard to himself, his own self-image. So he was going to be the best Jew, the best Torah student, the most zealous persecutor of heretics, and once he became Paul, he was going to be the best disciple, above the others. He was going to be the only Jesus whisperer to the risen Christ. Do you have insights into his psyche that would suggest anything like this?

I appreciate the conversations ❤ I believe they are important to hone our spirit of discernment. Thank you all 🙏✝️

In 2006 my wife left me after twenty years for a Jewish man in a tortured, devastating way. I’ve been interested in marrying again, but I’ve kept myself busy with improving my Hebrew, Greek and eschatology. I’ve always sensed Paul was married, like a good rabbi, and he was agonizingly aware his wife left him. His thorn is my thorn.

found out about dr. tabor via Ehrmans current podcast. Thank you for all the awesome content!!!

Paul's trade was tentmaking. Interesting video.

When I was first learning the Bible I remember picturing Peter as Paul's thorn in his flesh. I thought Paul was maybe annoyed by or envious of Peter's favour. Jealousy is an ugly thing and not even those overcome by those feelings wants to hold on to them. I was not one afflicted by jealousy much but shortly after getting married I did on occassion feel it, and remember being so ashamed to feel it and acting on it was especially disgusting to me. I now too, think of the thorn as being representation of sexual struggle but everytime I hear it my mind goes back to that first thought for some reason.

Simply can't agree with the lust idea. Paul stated, "Now as a concession, not a command, I say this. I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. (1 Cor. 7:6-7)" It seems to me that he is saying that he has the gift of celibacy, and that he knows it would be easier for all if they did, too. Jesus had said, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it." To me this implies that only certain people can handle being unmarried, and that the ability to do so is a gift. It seems exactly compatible with Paul's comments above. So I don't see lust being an issue for Paul if he had been given the gift of celibacy (i.e., being one of the "eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.") Truth is, we won't know until we meet Paul, and when we do, his thorn will be gone. We'll have to ask him politely. But that being said, I am most persuaded toward the severe presbyopia idea. Can you imagine being Paul, and being physically unable to read? Having to be dependent on someone to read Scripture to him because his eyes are so poor? And there were no corrective lenses back then, and only lamplight. 2 Cor. 10:10 may corroborate this. If Paul could not see his notes, it may have negatively affected his preaching. If he were teaching and could not look up a scripture, he may even have appeared illiterate. My two cents.

Dr. Tabor have you heard about LDS doctrine on this verse? We have strong beliefs about this verse: esoteric sacred teachings, ascending to heaven, and three degrees of heavenly glory.

Very insightful, Thanks so much. God Bless You

Thank you

Maybe Paul's thorn in the flesh was attributed to Jacob who was first to struggle with God and Man and God struck Jacob on the hip, to force Jacob to let go of the wrestle, which today some people call "sciatica" the nerve from the hip to the leg that is a crippling affliction . So it seems affirming that such close calls with God may incur physical impairment, that stifles the pride .

Temporal lobe epilepsy would explain his visionary experiences and mysticism, plus some aspects of his personality. Compare Paul to Philip K. Dick, just for grins.

"Super abundant" Paul spent 3 years in arava sniffing cave guano. So, I mean practicing mysticism quality is not quantity. As near as I can tell Paul had some experience near Damas (Luke seems to have a few discrepant sources) and he's trying to figure it all out so he does the desert mystic thing for a few yeas.

"Thorn is the flesh" as in Numbers 33:55 Joshua 23;13 Judges 8:7 and many others OT verses are cast as expressions of being a RELATIONAL stumbling block to be overcome.

I first read this "thorn in the flesh" business a couple of years ago. It never occurred to me that the thorn could be anything but "Sex". Regardless of mindless, instant gratification, sex is the biggest curse in my life. Without it I am convinced I would have graduated (not) to sainthood long ago. 😇

Would also go along with the message of the Angel to the churches in Revelations who said that the false teacher was teaching the heresy of balaam and sexual immorality… in the same city where Paul would go to Lydia’s house alone 😬

I've always seen Paul as someone with tremendous ego. I imagine his thorn as something he feels is a weakness of his faith rather than a physical infirmity. I think he would think of ego as a personal flaw, a show of inadequate submission. And if he had a woman who couldn't bear the thought of being associated with those Nazarean weirdos, running around "performing miracles"...he would hate that. Who can say? 🤷

Hard to know, but I definitely have always thought this is what Paul meant.

I think Paul must have had a neurological disorder. Whatever he experienced should be seen through this prism. He could have had strong sexual desires which he experienced through the torment of a neurological disability. At minimum, Paul must have had sun stroke on the road to Damascus. There are long term consequences from heat stroke. In the middle of his activities persecuting Jesus followers, Paul had a profound experience that included visions. That is enough to say Paul had or was prone to such experiences of neurological derangement.

Very insightful. In another place he encouraged even old men to take a wife and even though she is past child bearing age, they sin not if they submit to Christ and each other. Bed undefiled. He warned of sure trouble at some point with a wife. I believe the 1000 years will be the elect raising up the foundations of many generations and restoring paths to walk in. Having children and learning war no more.

Paul = Germanicus = the elevated horny, thorny agave (Agabus) = Augustus (heir, abdes to Tiberius princeps). So what was Germanicus (Zebedeus) thorn ? Oh boy where to start with , at least he was not divorced ; Agrippina (maior, Salome) having 6 children did serve the case of her husband faithfully, being brutally whipped (lost an eye on that ocassion) and finally martyred. Maybe that was his thorn ; he couldn't protect his wife and 'twin' after he died, but bit an anachronism : post mortal regret. It is easy to say his thorn was his biggest rival ; Tiberius, but as a pharisee he was loyal to the princeps/king till the end. Maybe his betrayer/servant Lucius Sergius (Seneca) was his thorn then ? but he praises Demas as his most loyal co-worker where his own twin sacked him. Maybe it was his own ambition ? As a 'Camillus' of Tiberius he could not give up his position (his god-given right) or his richness, but rather goes a Camel through the eye of a needle then . . Or maybe it was a youth sin ? As Pantera Sidonia he set the trap, he lured his fellow comrades into surrender ( 'paul persuaded fellow christians' ), Tiberius advised by Seneca ordered to finish them all off ( 'paul asked Kephas for binding written orders, letters' ) . . . what let him no choice ; 'The evil I don't want, that am I doing', It cursed his future life. Or maybe his Calimero syndrome ? always be looking for the good part, not to look back in regret on his lifecycle, his conscientiousness . . Only God may know . .

His vision on the road to Domascus seemed very much like a seizure. As a person with a seizure disorder and coma history, it seems relatable. After a seizure, one often has a great lift from depression and anxiety. And in a coma or coma like state, spiritual ideation can come to one . That is not to negate the possibility of truly miraculous occurrences. Seizures are often "ill timed," and recurrent seizures in a time when it was believed they were caused by demons could have been extremely troubling to a person in the first century Mediterranean environment.

Very interesting. The explanation of sexual temptation has merit as it's commonly experienced, increasing its probability. Yet it implies he's willing to confess such a thing openly to his disciples, and that seems an unbelievably courageous (and naive) thing to do. The poor parishioners would have to watch their daughters whenever Paul ('small') was in town. If true, it would be the first preemptive confession of this sort among the tribe of randy evangelists! 😇

second guess: Cataracts are a clouding of the eye’s natural lens, making it difficult for light to enter your eye. first guess: masturbation / nocturnal emissions

Bottom line: we don't know what Saul's "thorn in the flesh" was, and everything written about it is idle speculation. Incidentally, his Latin name Paul means "small" as he was so described by those who knew him. Also, he had a bulbous head and was bald, or balding. He knew at least five languages: Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, (sister language to Hebrew), Latin (we can deduce this from the text, but the deduction is too long for this context), and the local language or dialect spoken in Anatolian Tarsus (not the other Tarsus located in what is now Syria). He may have stretched the truth when he claimed to be a Pharisee. An unmarried pharisee would have been an anomaly. Jewish men, especially Jewish leaders, were expected to marry and produce offspring. Celibacy was strongly discouraged. The bit about having letters from the high priest in Jerusalem authorizing him to arrest Jews following "the Way" may have been a later addition to the text. High priests in Jerusalem had no authority in Damascus.

Agree. Lust, and the longing for physical intimacy, is one of the hardest vices to overcome... We see this in so many Saints and hermits, like Anthony the Great or Mary of Egypt. Also as a sin it's constantly there, repeating it self... Imagine a evil Mafia hitman. He might have 7, 12, 20 kills... But a man with lustful eyes, thoughts and dreams will end up with thousands of sinful occasions - that he enjoys in the moment.

I absolutely love when you speculate. 💕

Why wonder? Just read what he wrote. he called it "a thorn in the flesh". He called it "His infirmities". He made a list of what his infirmities were. Please read, (2nd Cor. 23-30.

Surely you can not control your dream? I don't know how fare and deep Paul's discipline goes. I search self for that aspect. Purification is the portal !

Wow….cool. Wish I could take your class.😁

There were rumors and reproaches by James and others why Paul is not married and only travelling with his two boyfriends... So thats a "Thorn in the flash" obviousely.. and homosexuality was kind of tolerated amongs simple people and pageans...but it was a real issue if you wanted to be a Rabbi. You were not allowed to work in the temple as a jewish priest...

The more I see what you do makes me a someone who truly appreciates humanity. Albeit I confess I get more "juice" from theater such as Jesus Christ Superstar, Godspel and books like ET 101 and the urantia book. I'm boring because I've been stuck on this for decades now. In no way do I criticize you and your accomplishments. I'm just saying. :)

Satan's thorn in his flesh refers to what is modernly called "circumcision" .... the "crown" of thorns and purple robe mockery refers to the wound and the bruise of Juda's "kiss" of betrayal.

Messenger (Angel) of Satan is demonic possession clearly. 2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought YHWH thrice, that it might depart from me. Paul was in Herod's family an Idumaean, (see Eisenman's Paul as Herodian) Rom_16:11 Salute Herodion my kinsman. Paul is against the 12 apostles Gal_2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, 2Co 11:5 Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles. James is a Nazarite, the other apostles may have been also, they were vegetarians with long hair. Rom_14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 1Co_11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? Paul's character shows in his strange letters 2Co_12:16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile. 2Co_11:8 I robbed other assemblies, taking wages of them, to do you service. The true apostles did not give letters of commendation to Paul and they did not think he was an apostle. Paul was not taught by Yahushua and did not know him. Paul's Yahushua was a spirit/demon. 1Co_9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Yahushua the Messiah our Master? are not ye my work in YHWH? 1Co_9:2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in YHWH. 2Co_3:1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? Paul is rejected by all of those in Asia. 2Ti_1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; Which is also in Revelation Rev_2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Bishop Shelby Spong wrote that Paul was a closeted and repressed gay man. It makes sense. All his repressive denial and persecution of others matches the same personalities at work in culture today.

Paul was imo an Armstrongite, 1900 years before Herbert W Armstrong, and believed that saved humanity will become beings on the plane of existence of the gods, i.e., the immortal Sons of God and brethren of Jesus himself.

Judging angels is referring to standing at the door, even being a 'door'. Recall, there was no one in heaven, on earth, or under the earth who could open the scroll, this 'person' is at the door - in between heaven and hell, and thus the reference of angels ascending and descending upon the son of man. If one is obedient, thus this person will open and shut this door and will not change their mind in these decisions. On coveting... this is regarding the works of God, in other words, the 'good' that he does, is not 'of' himself... but God using and working 'thru' him; and thus he can only take credit for the 'bad' that he 'might' do, anything 'good' that he does is accredited to God. I do NOT see such a zealous man as the wretched sinner we think he is, we misunderstand his context - 1 Peter warns us about this pitfall. Paul's reference to his 'wretchedness' is in the same context of where he speaks of himself as being a Hebrew of Hebrews and so on, yet says they are nothing, compared to the glory of Christ.

Paul went blind because he didn't stop when he needed glasses.

Redact second to last line to " it interfered with"" not it interest.

Pauls thor was depression like Job, Jeremiah, and the two witnesses. and the 24 elders told us their thorns some of them were lust like David, Anger like Moses he killed a guy got into a fight and had to leave town then broke rocks twice in anger, now Moses is singing with the cloud of witnesses church

Pride!

If it was something of an innocent nature Paul wouldn't have been elusive about it ?

I've had dreams about women but I've never whenever had a dream about being with a man. Could it be because of my diurnal heterosexual predilections?

It was the worthless shepherds arm ...we already know about his eyes ..

Hello - The sexual act is a normal function of the human being. However, the sooner one can eschew it, the better. The Srimad-Bhagavatam emphasises the importance of celibacy for spiritual development. Paul continued to reincarnate after his life with the Nazarene. His final incarnation was as Hilarion. He is now the Ascended Master by that name on the Intergalactic Council on the Green Ray of Healing, and may be invoked to assist with all health issues. Blessings - RevDrD

I've always believed Paul's issue was lust and the act of masturbation was his thorn... Christianity is the foremost Religion that completely dis-allows sex before marriage, adultery, and polygamy, including onanism. And when Jesus says "if your hand makes you sin cut it off"--this is no help to relieving Christian guilt; worse than that, and if you even "think" lustfully.. Jesus says you're guilty; which is even worse especially for young men who get natural erections every morning when they wake up...This makes the practice of Christianity much harder (pun?) than any other secular, pagan, or even Jewish disciplines. Especially if you have no wife or husband, or are trying to put temptations out of your mind, cold showers etc... we all know human nature when you're told not to do something, just think of "Eve and the forbidden fruit? anybody?" I believe there is so much MORE sexual stuff in the bible than we realize, preach, or study. unfortunately in our english translations, & narratives from people like Augustine they "toned down" the scriptural translations to the point that modern day Christians' have no clue about sexuality biblically. And its a pit of guilt and religious hell men fall into all day long. Song of Solomon as written in Hebrew was not allowed to be read aloud when young men present. Although this is the relationship of Christ to His bride? What? try not thinking sexually while reading " your Breasts are like doves" and your navel is like.. WHAT? like JESUS love for you; WTF? sounds like crazy words! The old saying: a man can't last 10 seconds alone without a sexual thought? Poor Paul, Poor celibate catholic priests, poor incels at 15 to 20 years of age living at most mixed gender colleges. Poor poor Christians with an internet youporn connection, cause this is the hardest of commandments to overcome You got to feel sorry for single Christ followers, and for old worn-out christian marriages struggling to be pure in Jesus eyes. It was impossible for me, and it still is impossible to do for millions of people--except for the hope of Christs forgiveness...

Paul’s marriage was annulled by virtue of having disappeared for three years in Arabia. A provision in Jewish law in case of absence of a partner.

Interesting that you bring up sight and epilepsy with Paul... I’m epileptic and it can effect the eye sight. I always assumed Paul had a seizure, smacked his head good hitting the ground like many of us do, and he hallucinated at best, that or he simply lied period

I think it was an actual thorn

I agree with you the poison may have interfered with a man's normal happy good morning surprised form my happy....causing extreme pain!!!!!!!!!

If it were blindness that would line up with how Isaac became blind after falling in love with eating Esau's wild game. Since Paul was a meat head he probably went blind as well. Although I can definitely identify with sex being the main temptation when you are celibate as I have been since 2018 and the sexual desires are just about the ONLY sin I suffer with and it's like you said only when I wake up in the morning alone after dreaming.

Paul never thought to be a second Christ. That is nonsense.

I always assumed Paul was gay. It would make his angst make most sense.

2 Corinthians 12:7 The Thorn in the Flesh, The thorn chokes and strikes the flesh! And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, an Angel(messenger) of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. This is plain and simple! The thorn chokes and strikes the flesh, so those Born of God the Evil One does not Touch Him! 1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. From the The Master Teacher, You see Satan is the Thorn. The thorn chokes and strikes the flesh! Matthew 13:22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. Satan is the Thorn. The thorn chokes and strikes the flesh! Matthew 13:7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.

I think there is a good possibility that Dr. Tabor is right on this.

Was Yeshua a rabbi???

He has the light from the Holy Spirit.

ms

You said "I'm just speculating" that's the problem James. Too much speculation in scholarship that is accepted as if it is fact.

Or maybe he was simply attracted to men instead of women- a death sentence at the time.

Mohammad isn’t a believer. He departed for his 12 wives

COULD PAUL POSSIBLY BE A HOMOSEXUAL MAN?

Come on dr. Tabor text me back I know you are right.

You people supposedly are smart and have done all kinds of research your life but yet you don't understand the scriptures.

This reminds me of some freudian psychology. The more suppression the more strange thoughts come out. Paul's suppression of his desires impacted his theological hubris.

@ James Tabor you are very foolish in your comments about Jesus and Paul the apostle. see what the Bible things of people like you. God’s wisdom leads us to see the difference between reality and fantasy, to discern what works from what doesn’t. God’s wisdom leads us out of chaos to order, out of fear to love, out of conflict to peace, out of death to life. His wisdom exposes the foolishness of the so-called wisdom of this world, of listening to the so-called “experts” in our society who deny Him and His laws. But these “simple ones,” those who don’t understand reality, they mock God, make fun of truth, hate objective facts, pretend there isn’t a God, and believe what the “authorities” tell them. “Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the LORD, since they would not accept my advice and spurned my rebuke, they will eat the fruit of their ways and be filled with the fruit of their schemes. For the waywardness of the simple will kill them, and the complacency of fools will destroy them; but whoever listens to me will live in safety and be at ease, without fear of harm” (Proverbs 1:29-33 NIV84).

I mean who doesn’t have a love hate relationship with wet dreams.

I believe the theory he was homosexual and it drove him crazy

Shlomi is bigger than Jesus. Shlomi the Messiah gave us more than 200 parables. My favorite is called 'The poor farmer and the precious wine' 🙏🙏

I would guess a strong proclivity to younger males!! It's a Greek thing? But set the karmic lies of the Holy Roman Catholic Church!

Test none run mouth like known to the true virgin mother creator proclaimed three times over before you born seen self as the forth in heaven five stand as one sure as hell not any of you

jnnp.bmj.com/content/jnnp/50/6/659.full.pdf details a neurologist's view of the matter. The author was a retired missionary doctor and is published in a scientific journal. I can't remember this view having been aired on NT history site.