What Was The Soviet Union? ft. Richard Wolff (TMBS 114) 

AI fan I’d much rather live in the sunlight of capitalism

@@MetalDetroit I guess you didnt understand the metaphor then

Socialisms only goal is communism.

@@reginafontenot600 it's amazing that an abstract concept could have its own ambitions

@@TheGodlessGuitarist oh I did, guess you didn’t understand what I wrote.

@stealthballer I didn't know about him either a year or two ago...until I did. You're acting like a prick and it benefits nobody.

stealthballer there’s literally like 2 professors in america who talk like this about the ussr. wolff and parenti, and parenti is retired.

@jamada d What does any of that have to do with worker ownership over the means of production to escape an oppressive capitalist class?

@jamada d "Some days I want to kill a Socialist/communist. My family suffered & my friends families have suffered." In other words, you are saying that some days you want to kill the people who believe in human equality and escaping oppression because your family was oppressed. This is moronic.

@jamada d Man you are so full of shit. And you're literally admitting to having been Nazi collaborators. Tell whatever stories you want about kindly German soldiers, we know about Babi Yar. We know of entire villages that simply ceased to exist because the Germans killed everyone who lived there and burned the buildings to the ground. We know about the Einsatzgruppen that would follow in the wake of the Wehrmacht and just systematically murder Jews and other "undesirables" Fuck Stepan Bandera and fuck you

'Primitive accumulation'

this guy was not a winner Leopold II of Belgium

Workshy At40 There isn’t a single thriving socialist country

Happy McNugget “Medicare for all” Okay - let’s look at the math. We currently pay 500 Billion per year on Medicare. It covers 1/4 of Americans. Extrapolate: To cover all Americans, the cost would be 2 trillion per year. The combined wealth of 550 billionaires in this country is 2 trillion. If the government confiscated 100% of the wealth of the billionaires- you could pay for Medicare for all for just ONE YEAR ! And how would you pay for it the next year ??? There is no POSSIBLE way to pay for this. It is the left’s dream, but but it is only in your dreams. The math does not support this.

Happy McNugget Let us know when Wolff has accomplished at least 1/10 of what anti-intellectual Trump has.

I didn't know it about my country(We rarely even cover it in our history books) but Greece under the Liberal president Venizelos sent 22.000 men to help the White army against the Reds in Mariopol Crimea. All that time we were at war with Turkey and despite the IMMENSE need for men in the Greek Turkish front, we were so sold out that we prefered to slaughter Bolshevik revolutionaries that never touched us inspite of fighting our war. What you learn from reading history with detail right?

@@jimtroy4380 It's safe to say that the state - approved versions of History that we learn in our public (and private) schools, is self-serving, revisionist propaganda. When I hear my fellow Americans say that they're "proud to be American," I often want to stop and ask them "WTF are you so proud of? Slavery? Genocide? Occupation? Extermination? Imperialism? The Sand Creek Massacre? Wounded Knee? The Leadville Massacre? Hiroshima and Nagasaki? The My Lai Massacre? Are you proud of those atrocities??" Most people wouldn't understand what I'm talking about though.

I think it's important to remember that during WWII, millions upon millions of Russians died, cities were decimated, and society was torn apart. Don't get me wrong, I respect the hundreds of thousands of American troops and civilian casualties during WWII, but American cities weren't decimated. The country was still standing strong with an intact infrastructure after WWII. We didn't have to spend resources trying to mobilize and rebuild our society. I don't like how the USSR turned into a brutal authoritarian country for decades, but I can see how desperation can lead to negative outcomes.

@@50jakecs Atleast you take a fair approach to the subject.

@jamada d Apparently you didn't understand when I wrote that the USSR became a brutal authoritarian government. And you missed the whole point of my comment. And you're rude.

Me too.

o7

bad idea

@@vancouveride The system is corrupt and broken, unequal and unfair and has reached it's end. America is becoming a third world country. Look at the actual statistics of low paying jobs, homelessness, bankruptcy, living on debt to just squeak by, working several jobs to survive, infrastructure rated a D, pollution reversing course, seniors eating dog food, people rationing their medicine, and the RICH get richer. I'm sure you are doing fine though.

I have many times. Listening to his full democracy at work events, the global capitalism 2 hour events he does are great and i used to listen to them on repeat for days on end

Me too, especially considering capitalists do it all the time, tho they may argue, that killing workers isn't killing "their own".

@@Grafomanokrasto No we dont.

I'm doing the same. Stay well comrade and rest in power brother Michael

not to be that guy but its hard to watch for me

@@mattweigand9648 " Not to be that guy" nothing wrong with being that guy my friend! Don't demonize yourself for showing your emotions.

25 April is a fateful day, although it happened decades before, the very same day italian partisans freed Milan and other northern cities in Italy, marking the end of nazi-fascist occupation of the country. I don't think the italian nation could be redeemed from the horrors of WWII just like that, but in the prelude of that, the spanish civi war that you mention, you could find italian people volunteering for the Spanish Republic (Luigi Longo is a prominent name among them) that didn't mind fighting the other italian "volunteers" from the army of the italian kingdom, sneaked in by Mussolini

Spanish civil war is more studied than you think, if you investigate anarchism any further than punk rock you read and learn about Revolutionary Catalonia. It's not uncommon for George Orwell's Homage to Catalonia assigned in English and basic political science classes.

@@noidontlikeu The Spanish civil war should definitely be studied more by anti-capitalist libertarians, in part because it is important to understand how the Spanish revolution was defeated by both the fascist counter revolution and by the Stalinists' repression of the dissident revolutionary left (the POUM and the anarchists).

Portugal is a capitalist country. Portugal had a revolution and decades later was swallowed by the capitalist EU and lost is sovereignty for ever, today's coalition is neither socialist nor communist, but an elitist social democratic system that over relies on tourism and brussels bazookas. A country just in name, Spain is similar but a bit complex, there are some areas with remarkable things going on such as the Basque Country, the mentality of the people helps a lot though. But alas, Portugal is not a good example of socialism whatsoever, it's capitalist with small scratches of "socialism". A socialist country can't have a system of golden visas where you gain citizenship for having property and accumulated wealth, meanwhile the average worker earns less than 700 euros. Not to mention the country is literally dying, in 3 decades it will just have some 8 million people.

@@InesAidos it's not at all, even the communist party is not communist and they are way more honest than PS. There's a reason they call what happens in Portugal "geringonça" (a thing undefined, an anomaly)

YES sanders/turner overdrive. No one else #OnlyBernie I keep seeing people say "Bernie/Tulsi2020" and I'm like WHAT??? Fuck tulsi! Bernie/Turner 2020

#BernieOrVest

Do you remember this historian’s name / have a link to the study?

I would also like a link, i can use it in case any magatard tries to tout the "venezuela=socialism" fallacy : -)

@@JohnPaul-uv3dz Not at the moment, it was a while ago. I'll have to dig around for it.

I would like to see the study too

Most importantly, communism by definition can't directly kill anyone. Communism is simply worker ownership over the means of production to make profit splitting more equitable (as opposed to having a capitalist class that controls all the wealth). If anything, it saves lives because you don't end up with so many working poor struggling to pay for needed medicine while the already rich pay them as little as they can get away with so they can buy a nineth yacht. If someone dies in a system that has communism integrated in it, then they died from another cause (such as a dictator killing his own people or war). Neither of those things is "because" of communism.

No system is inherently bad, people are. There were great monarchies that advanced the human condition, much better than some modern systems of government.

I hope you're just being sarcastic.

👍

Lol no

Not to mention how populations as a whole increased after and during the tenures of Mao and Stalin, despite them killing "hundreds of millions" of their own lmao, unlike the example of Kenya and British colonizers Professor Wolff gives here.

Gaifreak could you please cite a few other names? I can give you links to some Russian lefttubers with english subs.

@@clockfixer5049 check out The Finnish Bolshevik

Nikolas Torn also might want to check out hakkim

Nikolas Torn more moderate leftubers: Secular Talk, Majority Report, Amazing Atheist, and Humanist Report are all great

Nikolas Torn in terms of actual leftism there's revolution report, Finnish bolshevik, empire files, hakkim, if you want media from an eastern perspective id check out cgtn. Caleb Maupin is worth checking out too.

2 wrongs don't make a right

The civil war was triggered by western expansion

Www.prolespod.com Awesome socialist history podcast. The hosts also go on an episode of rev left radio to discuss the facts and fictions, liberal myths of USSR in the stalin period. If you'd prefer reading, let me know. I can link you some pdf when I get home!

Noah Herschyvik definitely link those pdfs. I’ll have to check out that pod as well. Thank you!

@@jeff9576 crap. Just got this. I'll get some for ya, but will have to wait until after worl today. And np! Always happy to help new folks.

No it doesn't. Communism is pure evil.

His views on worker co-ops in Yugoslavia: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-9la2F12jzZc.html His views on Titoism: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-oJQo-BEbl1I.html

Hey I found Elijah

I tend to agree at least partly with the characterization of the Soviet Union as an example of "state capitalism", but with the caveat that the law of value was incomplete or deformed as a result of the significant barriers imposed by the state on the development of the commodity form (hence on the spread of markets). So if it is going to be considered as a form of capitalism, then it should be seen as a deformed and non-comprehensive variant of it. A good article on this topic is "What was the USSR? Part IV: Towards a Theory of the Deformation of Value ". libcom.org/library/what-was-the-ussr-aufheben-part-4

@tiglath pileser "The Bolshevik revolution was a counter-revolution. Its first moves were to destroy and eliminate every socialist tendency that had developed in the pre-revolutionary period. Their goal was as they said; it wasn't a big secret. They regarded the Soviet Union as sort a backwater. They were orthodox Marxists, expecting a revolution in Germany. They moved toward what they themselves called "state capitalism," then they moved on to Stalinism. They called it democracy and called it socialism. The one claim was as ludicrous as the other." - Noam Chomsky

@tiglath pileser That's hilarious considering the fact he's been a critic of American imperialism/capitalism for the last 50+ years. In fact, he literally calls out Nixon/Carter for their crimes in Cambodia in a video. m.ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-5BXtgq0Nhsc.html You're so full of shit it's ridiculous.

@tiglath pileser "Chomsky is not only an agent of american imperialism" HOT TANKIE TAKE FOLKS "Sorry, but you should read a book and study history" you are confusing agitprop with history there

@tiglath pileser ok tankie

LOL Jordan Peterson already ran away from a scheduled debate with Richard Wolff. These IDW grifters keep running away from the free market of ideas!

@@ThatViralVideo It's also misleading to conflate communism (shared worker ownership over the means of production instead of an oppressive hierarchical ownersihp) with dictatorial blood shedding, but people do it all the time so why not fight back?

@@ThatViralVideo would not colonialism be considered to be to the right of capitalism?

@@eiyukabe Thing is you need a very authoritarian state to enforce communism among a large population, which is why dictators tend to come with the package. Since you don't have a market to direct resources where they need to go, you also end up with large famines and riciculous inefficiencies. So, you see, death and totalitarianism are baked into communism in a way that they aren't in neoliberalism or social democracy. The examples Wolff raises, such as the American Civil War, are not bound to the inherent logic of regulated capitalism and mixed economies most liberals endorse in anything like the same way.

Human nature management. We are deeply flawed. We are possibly/probably/definitely contributing to our own extinction. Even if all the resources are SHARED fairly across the world, we will still use them all up or spoil the environment so much (out of convenience instead of greed) we can't survive. Use whatever analogy you want: Tragedy of the Commons or Easter Island or Multiplication of Yeast or Frog in a slowly heated pot. Or my favorite: The inability to understand the exponential function. Unlimited growth on a finite planet is impossible and unsustainable. The whole system is based on growth of debt that is transferred to the future. Well.... The future is here. The debt is due, and we are all broke.

I don't think greed is a sufficient explaination of US-/soviet-imperialism. That's a very idealistic view on history you express there.

@@breakprismatshell6270 Greed is absolutely to blame for the wealth inequality in America and all the tangential problems caused by it (poverty, crime, poor health care due to not being able to afford insurance) though.

@@eiyukabe no it's not it's the material conditions, that allows these characters to manifest in this way. If it was, why are you even bothering about politics? Greed is a character trait, it's timeless, it won't go away if Bernie Sanders is elected 1x 2x FDRx if there is M4A reform, prison reform, UBI are enacted.

@@breakprismatshell6270 Greed is an attribute of all humans that exists on a sliding scale. It can either be denounced and taught away (like we did a couple of decades ago when I was a kid), or it can be lionized on a pedestal like Randians try to do today. Politics and culture can encourage greed, or denounce it.

Adam that’s what I’m saying man, this guy is a fucking joke. Of course this resonates with decadent caviar socialists living in the west. Absolutely pathetic

@Milos Bulajic You didn’t even address the constructive criticism in the first comment.

Tyler Potts could you expand on 'evil' a little?

@@clockfixer5049 Stalin murdered millions of human beings. And until the very end of the Soviet regime in 89, it was a surveillance state that did not tolerate dissent. Many intellectuals were destroyed in mind and body for straying from the party line. That is what I think the OP means by "evil".

@@goodgirlkay So they were a mirror image of the US: A surveillance state that does not tolerate dissent--many examples--while responsible for the murder of millions of human beings.

@@goodgirlkay I agree that Stalin's domestic policy was problematic, to say the least, but the Khrushchev thaw of the 50's and 60's saw a lot of the repression toned down to something more comparable to the CIA in the states during those times. Still bad, but many older Russians that I've spoken to consider it the golden years of the Soviet Union for the thaw and a variety of other advances in economic and public life.

@@emileconstance5851 What's your point? I live in America have have acknowledged for about the last three years, since I woke up from my neoliberal fugue, that it is the current evil empire. That fact does not negate the evils of the Bolsheviks or the Maoists.

Thank you MAW, for mentioning the true heroes and revolutionaries of the Russian Revolution and civil war. Mahkno and Spridonova were the anti-fascist, pro-democracy figures of their times, the only ones worth following.

Makhno's ideas are utopia. Anarchists would never have prepared Russia for World War II. They would have been killed by the Nazis in 1941, as would 150 million people in Russia.

@@leibabronstein5478 You don't know that. Shit avatar btw.

"Totalitarian" is a useless expression which proves your analysis comes from a liberal perspective. The USSR was a socialist society for few decades this is an undeniable fact regardless of your attachment to bourgeois utopian ideas. That is farther than any Anarchist experiment or other utopian socialist experiment got. The USSR raised the standard of living for its citizens by an incredible margin and facilitated some of the fastest economic growth growth in history. They also defeated the Nazis and exported Socialism across eastern Europe. What did the CNT do? It collapsed to fell to fascism within a few years and never established socialism.

@@chairmanbunker4418 lol

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-YJQSuUZdcV4.html

@Neon Noir "setting of borders" = annexation of sovereign states.

Ummm Stalin invaded Poland 16 days after Hitler did and divided the country between themselves. Then three months later invaded Finland. Then in 1940 the USSR invaded and annexed the Baltic States.... I’m not making a value judgement here. I have no horse in the race for or against communism or the USSR. Its simply wrong to say the partnership between Stalin and Hitler had no part in starting WWII.

Neon Noir, I also didn’t say that the pact gave Hitler a greenlight to invade all of Europe or somehow Communism was behind WWII or any other kneejerk nonsense you are going on about.

tiglath pileser LOL holyshit. You are as bonkers as the fascists.

But free healthcare and literacy.......

Agreed. Also, if body count used as a metric actually favors one's side over the other, why not use it? It's not a losing argument.

Quite a few of them still are, and not by choice it seems. Myself being from Lithuania, I can tell you that only old people who couldn't make anything for themselves after USSR failed lament the fall of the regime. Younger folks, like me or even my parents, who are in their 50s realize what a fucked up system that was and we're much better off being a sovereign country again. There may have been good things in the USSR, sure, but as a whole it was a deeply flawed and tyrannical regime that left scars for many decades in a lot of it's formerly occupied territory. It's unfortunate that the Russian government that took over is arguably even more corrupt and instead of doing it's best to work for the people and find ways to prosper, goes out of its way to line the pockets of its oligarchy. Talk about a catch 22...

@@MarkDanov stop spread a lies. because of great freedom and independent you have an nato army on your territory and go to work to foreign countries? why do Lithuanians do not live in their own "independent" country? ha-ha-ha because of bloody capitalism and colonial position of the country? same Romanian do.

@@allaseremetova4257 we do live in our own country? Wtf are you talking about. The NATO army is there so we don't end up like Ukraine in case Russia's batshit crazy imperialist government decides they want more land (like they have done time and time again). You don't blame someone for carrying a pocket knife when they're neighbor is drunk gopnik.

How do you think things will go once the debt bubbles burst, as they did back in 2008?

Comrade Silly Otter you might have seen the recent GDP estimates for the next couple of years. If anything, it can hardly be called growth. Hard to say. The rate of profit is inexorably going down, people are getting poorer, insidious propaganda gets even more insidious, lay-offs are becoming part of everyday life, consumerism is no longer an option for many, debts as I mentioned earlier. All this can be subject to some band aid solution but I'm not at all sure how long it'll last. ... South America is a poignant reminder for those who believe it's not happening here. I'm curious as ever about the outcome. Really looking forward to free market economy collapsing, embarrassed, trying to disavow Hayek, Mises, Bawerk etc.

@@clockfixer5049 "Looking forward" is a strange way to put it because not only does it give me immense uncertainty and fear it also gives me a sense of hope. I sincerely hope that we pull through the struggle and build a better society in the wake, but every time large dangers to the structure come about, the structure tends to spill a lot of blood in order to preserve itself..

I've read polls claiming the majority of people want to go back to the USSR

@@wiggy009, it's true

@Dan Pilewski I'm a leftist. I presume you're not. This is what you need to understand about the left. Bernie Sanders, AOC, Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlalib, Tulsi Gabbard... they're all "The Left". This stuff in this video THIS is your "Radical Left". These are the people pushing actual no shit Socialism/ Marxism / Communism. Not saying they're terrible or anything... or to be feared. Think of them what you will. But for the sake of accuracy and understanding the actual left I just want moderates, centrists, right wingers to understand... there is a huge difference.

@Dan Pilewski gotcha... yeah, I'm a leftist but also a student of Russian history and language, grandson to Latvian refugees who had to flee Soviet occupation. They were persecuted by the KGB death squads, would've been tortured, killed, and/ or sent to gulags had they not escaped. Why? Because they were doctors and intellectuals. I've been taught about Soviet history from not just them but teachers and professors who lived through it. So I find this weak justification of the regime very naive and misleading, at best.

This convo actually made me cry. Some on our side are no better than those on the other side. I have lost all respect for Wolff after watching this video.

I mean... he showed (agree or not) how capitalism is worse than socialism, and your reaction is that we should stick with capitalism and steer clear of socialism?

I think his point, as unsettling as it is for many, is that those metrics serve a cyclic and unprogressive way of viewing 20th century history, making it fuel for propaganda instead of deeper understanding. That doesn't mean to brush off the crimes of our predecessors, as he's pointed out many times, but to not get obsessed with tallies. In our world, any capitalist ideologue is able to say that Stalin killed 30-50 million as a means to own a debate and make the idea of socialism defunct; that body count is untrue, based on hypothetical birth rates and lost figures in WW2. Do you see that therein lies the problem with basing our idea of evil on statistics? It's shallow, used for ideology, and almost is never accurate.

@@michaelamirault5430 So give me your estimate. Stalin definitely killed millions, right? Or say Mao's "Great Leap Forward" which resulted in famines and thereby death Attributing WWII to capitalism is a bit ridiculous TBH, but you can for example even foday attribute the 40,000 yearly deaths from people not having insurance in the US to that. Over 25 years, since 1994, that's 1 million people, who died from unfettered capitalism. Now imagine hoe that was before Medicare and Medicaid was introduced in the 60s Deaths are the least irrelevant statistic, the only question is which metrics are trustworthy and which aren't. Hitler murdered 6 million Jews, nobody would say "But how are we sure it's really 6 million? Therefore it's not a valid point"

@@cheydinal5401 I'm not sure how many died directly because of Stalin's or Mao's policies, but I would guess based on my understanding at least seven digits for each, them being responsible for some deaths more than others (natural disasters and poor harvests aren't attributed to them). My point was that anyone can parrot some statistic (albeit, a wrong one) as a means to make up for their own ignorance, which is what Dave Rubin, PragerU, and others want you to do. Evil, in my opinion (and Richard's) is not limited to the deaths they caused, and that includes Hitler, who was also evil by his own words, evil by his own system based on the racist lie of racial hierarchies. I'm not letting them all off the hook, nor did I say that statistic metrics are altogether irrelevant. I am saying that stats are not self-sufficient for a historical critique of "evil". Maybe you don't see it that way, but hopefully you see the point by now.

@@michaelamirault5430 Ok, I understand your point of view in this context, I think. Yes, Rave Dubin will parrot any statistic, whether true or not, to make people believe communism which he conflates with social democracy are evil, and that's dumb. That being said, if we had bulletproof statistics of "These policies led to this many deaths, these to this many", then obviously that should be a major, major factor. Bigger even than the nominal value of "How is the system set up?" I.e. in communism everyone is supposed to be equal, which is *supposed* to make you feel better. But if the outcomes of that system actually cause millions of preventable deaths, then the nominal setup of the system is not very important to me. If capitalism or even as a more extreme exampls feudalism fed the poor and gave people good wages, and for some reason I could be sure those results are reliable, then no matter how ruthless the setup of the system looks, its effects are better so you should choose it. The reason why I'm a social democrat rather than a capitalist monarchist is because I happen to have found that democrcy and socialism help people compared to those other systems

@@michaelamirault5430 No, that's alright, not too much, I try to actually listen to people, I could have kept reading a bit longer no problem One thing that's important is that during and immediately after the revolution, power needs to be put into the hands of the people directly, through direct elections and referendums. If the people don't hold the political power but people who were elected by elected officials who were elected by elected officials, then the connection to the people is lost. Not those rule who are the most popular with the people, but those who play the bureaucracy introgue game the best: Ruthless, violent thugs, like Stalin. Even Lenin and Trotzki were deeply opposed to him, but he won and stayed in power for a reason. Mass violence is not necessary for a revolution, at least not always. Certainly after the civil war is won, it doesn't need to continue. Ironically, the revolutions that freed Eastern Europe from the Soviet Union were almost all 100% peaceful, with some notable exceptions such as Yugoslavia of course. There was no reason why Stalin couldn't introduce a democracy soon after stepping into Lenin's shoes. Aside from the Soviet Union, though, what is your ideal system, before communism? Democratic socialism in the sense that really 100% of the economy is nationalized and the people directly vote somehow for what products they want, or at least elect leaders who do? Or a Stalin-like dictatorship that claims or possibly even aims to do what's best for the people?

Go away liberal

@@SeekerofTruths I'm a Revolutionary Socialist aka a Commie you absolute dinlo

@tiglath pileser Tank away Tankie

@tiglath pileser yeah cos I'm a liberal you bootlicking Brown-Red fash alliance twat

Me too. The more he talks the more insane his views look.

Hey! They lasted a whole 70 years! That impressive! Apparently.

It was always garbage

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-fh2cDKyFdyU.html