What Writers Should Learn From Wonder Woman 

"If your story is sincere enough, nothing is 'cheesy'." Damn that got me.

In the first 2 minutes, you have explained my frustration with most movies these days

I'm actually a huge fan of marvel movies, but this is one thing that I have brought up again and again walking out of them. The emotion is cheapened by the comedy. This was a great video!!

Thank you for calling out the biggest problem with the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

Bathos is cowardice. It's like saying "I love you." to a friend and then following up with "No homo!"

I must say, I am shocked at the amount of civil, intelligent discussion going on in this comments section.

Thank you for this. Honestly MCU films' overuse of Bathos is getting annoying. I hope they change it.

Agreed! And this is why I think the MCU will always have a sort of ceiling on it. On a different note, I don’t know what the heck they did with Guardians of the Galaxy, but it managed to be hilariously entertaining without particularly using off-putting bathos. Even the “standing in a circle scene” actually really feels like something Rocket would say. And maybe that answers my question! I loved Guardians humor because the humor all comes from character. The Guardians don’t press pause on the movie, look toward camera, tell a joke, then resume the movie. All the humor is really them interacting with each other in real ways

I think Wonder Woman is a dramatic movie that handles it's comedy well. It has Humor but ultimately if it had a choice between an emotional moment and a joke it'd choose an emotional moment

6:35 Oh crap, I forgot this video was about Wonder Woman in the fist place.

It really frightens me to see society so staunchly running away from emotion and taking topics seriously in their media. This sort of thing shapes our overall culture, and will no doubt contribute to many childhoods of the next generation. We're essentially saying, "We don't care about anything, nothing should be taken seriously; you should be embarrassed if you ever listen to your own emotions or dedicate yourself wholeheartedly to something." It just makes us ripe for being pushed around by people who are actually living life. You can very clearly see the shift of society in the way comics and comic-book movies are made, what does it say about us if we can't care about our own narrative for 10 minutes?

This 100% summarised the issues I had with the tone in Infinity war

Another point about Wonder Woman is that the scenes with jokes feel like the jokes should be there. They fit, and they don't undercut the emotion of the scene. (Mainly the scene where Diana is looking for a new outfit.) It's lighthearted when it needs to be, but it cuts back to drama and shows that WWI is a dark event, that should not be trivialised, and this movie does it justice.

Yess, I didn't realise until I watched it, but Wonder Woman really made me miss the good old 'cheesy' superhero films filled with brilliantly impossible superhero moments, like Sam Raimi's Spider-Man or the old Batman films. The quips from marvel movies were fun at first when no other super hero movie was doing them, but now they're all quipping so Wonder Woman was like a breath of fresh air. Man, I've got to watch that again 😍

You're so right man! It's almost like today's society is lacking deep emotions, I love things that make me cry, a movie, game, TV show or book. We need to not be afraid to show our deep feelings.

It's not impossible to tell a dramatic, gritty story and make jokes without undercutting the drama, but it takes a delicate touch. I can't help but think of Avatar the Last Airbender because the humor is a cornerstone of the show (look what happened to Shamaylan's movie without it), but it's a fairly dark story overall. They just never use the humor to undercut the important moments.

I see people disagreeing about Civil War, but I also think it Guardians of Galaxy (vol 1, vol 2 is an excellent example) is bad example, not because it is a comedy but because it is entirely in character for Rocket, he is uncomfortable with the emotion and so makes a joke. It reinforces the emotion because it shows how big a step it was for him

I would say that the trend of increasingly self-aware movies that undermine their own drama with quips and subversions started with Scream and its sequels. While these were still more-or-less slasher films, they were already chock-full of comedy at the expense of the slasher film genre itself, like when the characters discuss the "rules" of being in a slasher. Of course, these films were a massive success, and led to the Scary Movie franchise and its offshoots, which took the concept and ran with it all the way into the endzone of absurdity. I think the lesson Hollywood internalised from these developments is that a movie that takes itself or its subject matter too seriously is a lot harder to pull off than one that is covered in a thick coating of irony and self-deprecation. If you make fun of your movie first, your audience will be less inclined to treat it as a serious film and will therefore be more willing to overlook stupidity and plotholes, "because it's just a dumb movie anyway". I fucking hope that with the success of Game of Thrones, Wonder Woman and other films/shows that play themselves straight, executives will finally grow a spine and stop trying to cover their ass with pre-emptive irony.

*"if your story is sincere enough, then nothing is cheesy."*

Wow, this resonates with me so hard. Movies almost want to make fun of you for caring. Brilliantly put, love this.

For me, the flippant attitudes and comic timing in Guardians of the Galaxy serve to reinforce the emotional weight of the narrative, not harm it. All the characters are set in their ways, be it as a defense mechanism (Rocket, Star-Lord), misunderstanding (Drax, Groot), or just self-seriousness (Gomorrah), and when their quirks sync up and make a really memorable, funny moment, it cements the idea that they're a good team. When Rocket interrupted the pep talk, it didn't break the scene: it showed that he couldn't help but support his friends, while also reminding us why that was important: he wants to blow everything off like he doesn't care. If he had instead slipped on a piece of laundry on the floor, or something like that, I'd agree with you. But he didn't. That's why the script is so good. Everything (or very nearly everything) that's funny also develops the characters.

Wonder Woman is the first movie in a while to make me fall in love with a superhero again. I've been feeling like Marvel undercuts its own drama for a while, I'm glad to have a word to associate with it now. Great video, more people need to watch this and understand why we need more movies like Wonder Woman.

in some ways diana’s personal sincerity added some level of comedic value while not taking away from the drama. the ice cream scene, for example. she is sincere in her love and appreciation of the ice cream, which is somewhat funny to an audience that understands social conventions, but it maintains the integrity of diana’s character and emotions. idk just my take

Every time someone mentions Alexander Pope, all I can think of is Kirsten Dunst's character in Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind mistakenly calling him Pope Alexander.

Hell, I've started using the word cheesy for dumb jokes inappropriate times then for some poorly crafted drama. Seriously quipafication is really starting to become a plague in modern cinema.

WOW, thank you so much for this analysis! I've recently realized I've been doing exactly this "bathos" thing in my own writing, I don't really do it on purpose but I just slip into it naturally and it's absolutely true that it undermines the drama of the scene and takes away from the sincere emotion. I got called out for using pathos too much when I was younger and I guess I took it to the heart a little bit too much and went overboard with the reverse. (The irony is that I've just read some of my old writings and I actually kind of mastered the art of pathos at like 13 and should have been proud of myself. lol) It also explains why I rarely remember any scenes with emotional impact from the latest super hero movies (except for WW), any scenes with real depth, while I can still remember how deeply touched I was as a young teenager when watching Spiderman and Spiderman 2 (and countless movies from the 80s - definitely my favorite era). You really pointed me in the right direction for balancing it all out :) I also think this whole thing runs deeper than just movies, it's like people in general are really afraid of sincerity and genuine emotion and they rather go for smart-ass quips and sarcasm because it makes them seem cool and above it all, but they're really just hiding their fear of something real, their fear of their own vulnerability and humanity even. (There might be some fear of the "feminine" at play as well but I won't go into that.) I do hope this is just a phase and the success of WW is a sign that we still do love true, genuine stories and will continue loving them as long as we are human. Keep up the great work with your channel! :)

This is a wonderful essay, and it made me realize some of the problems in many films lately. I think people like Waititi can handle Bathos and make it a part of the story and character journeys, but in films like Doctor Strange the humour feels manipulative.

Thank you for not just getting writing right, but for using/actually growing in emotional courage and valuing the higher reasons for art. Very grateful for you.

I've got to disagree with your analysis of the airport scene in Civil War. I think that you would be spot on if it were Captain America telling the jokes -- but it's not, it's Iron Man. One of the major characteristics of Tony Stark is that he, himself, struggles with sincerity. He avoids emotional vulnerability by quipping, & only in moments where he loses his composure does he genuinely express what he's feeling. Iron Man telling jokes doesn't mean that the tone has changed -- it means that he's Iron Man: someone who wears both a literal & a metaphorical suit of armor.

Is an art-form awash in bathos a reflection of a lack of sincerity in the wider culture? This is the question your video left me with.

This is why The Winter Soldier is the best MCU movie

Joss Whedon also knows when not to joke too. In the commentary for a Buffy episode in a later season where a main character dies, he points out that he made the scene extra ackward for the audience on purpose by leaving out the soundtrack that up till that point always accompanied similar scenes. He explained that music relieves tension like a joke by telling the viewer how to feel, and the most emotional scenes are the ones where you make the audience rely on what the events mean to them, and let them stew in that as long as you can get away with. Tldr: ignore what I just wrote and watch "Firefly" to see uncountable jokes do no harm to stories dripping with pathos. It can be done.

One of the greatest videos of RU-vid in a while.

Want sincerity? Watch Hayao Miyazaki films

"What am I feeling and why do I feel thus way" is the most important question any person can ask themselves, ever. Whether it is books, movies, music, politics, the news, always always ask yourself the question. What do I feel and why do I feel that way?" Will cause you to naturally become critical. It's an important skill.

That Airport scene always bugged me because it basically felt like a kid smashing his toys together chaotically with little emotion until the kid starts crying because he accidentally broke War Machine!

This was an issue I instinctually felt with Dr. Strange. Though perhaps I hadn't articulated it as thoughtfully as you have now. I came out of Dr. Strange feeling it was far too jokey. It was as though they were apologizing for the material. Dr. Strange took the jokes inappropriately further than it should have. I can see that now that this is an overarching pattern with the Marvel movies. At the time I felt it was perhaps because Dr. Strange was an overt step into the world of mysticism and magic. And like the filmmakers couldn't help but apologize profusely by peppering it with joke after joke after joke. Which ironically enough end up becoming "cheesier" had they just played for sincere drama. Another one of the most moving comic book movies recently was "Logan". Which was not done by Marvel Studios. How many chuckles would Marvel Studios tried to have cram in that film to alleviate its dark somber tone. By the way, would love to see a video from you on "Logan".

me: clicks on "What Writers Should Learn From Wonder Woman" also me until 6:30: did i click the right video???

This is literally why i can't love marvel movies. I hate this overuse of bathos, stakes are droping fast beacause of it.

I noticed the opposite of bathos in Wonder Woman midway when they're heading towards war. It starts comically with Diana and Steve talking about which direction to go and comments on the recruitments they are doing And suddenly injured soldiers start coming from the other side of the bridge. The scene transacts from comedic to tense...

I don't think Marvel Studios does what they do because they're afraid of being cheesy, I think they do it because they're afraid of being cliche. That's the problem with comparing a contemporary film to a classic film. Many of the story beats that the older film utilized have since become worn out. If E.T. or the original Star Wars come out in this day and age, odds are they'd be wouldn't be nearly as well-received by audiences and critics. But they're extremely respected and regarded as they are because we acknowledge the era in which they were made. What was the primary criticism of The Force Awakens? It recycled too many of the story beats of the original Star Wars. What was the main criticism of The Amazing Spider-Man reboot? It repeated too much of the original Spider-Man film. That's what Marvel Studios has to deal with. Let's face it, no other contemporary genre is as played out and trope-laden as superhero fiction. Since the release of the original Spider-Man trilogy, how many superhero films have gotten where we watch a main character progress from being an Act 1 protagonist to an Act 3 protagonist? Hence the cape scene in Doctor Strange. If you have no choice but to invoke a moment that's been done several times before, you do have to undercut it a little so it doesn't look completely identical to what's come before. That's the thing, when implementing tropes/cliches, even if the film isn't an outright comedy, you have to subvert expectations otherwise you'll look like you're going through the motions and come across as formulaic. I personally didn't care for the cape thing, but seeing as Marvel is constantly accused of being formulaic, I can see why they do stuff like that. The reason Wonder Woman didn't have to deal with that particular trope is due to lead protagonist's overall lack of a fleshed-out character arc. Unlike Peter and Doctor Strange, and similar to Captain America in FA, Diana is more or less the same person, a selfless hero, from the very beginning to the very end. Unlike Peter, Strange, Iron Man, etc we don't watch her develop the resolve to become a hero over the course of the film. She just is. So the film doesn't even make for a really good comparison to begin with. Also he's being very strict when saying that there are specifically correct circumstances to use bathos. Whatever happened to the there are no rules rule? Sine when is undercutting tropes exclusive to comedic films, like Deadpool and Lego Batman? Personally, I think Marvel, for the most part, uses bathos to give an almost postmodern sense of self-awareness, which once again shouldn't be limited to comedic works. And I for one liked that "standing in a circle" line from GOTG. I felt the line, which was improvised, was fitting of the character and well-executed to the point that the scene is preserved, unlike the cape thing with Doctor Strange. Like I said, I don't think they do stuff like that just to be funny, but to also prevent scenes from being identical to so much of what's come before. Oh and for the record, they almost always make fun of the superhero name. Spider-Man, Man of Steel, X-Men: "What kind of name is Rogue? ... What kind of name is Wolverine?" or "Sabertooth? Cyclops? Storm? And what are you, Wheels?" Seriously, they've been doing that bit forever. Anyway, overall I found this video to very insightful but I felt like some of his comparisons and assumptions were a bit off.

And thats why i loved Logan.

To be fair though, Rocket's "A bunch of jackasses, standing in a circle." Is totally in character.

Using the sound from the end of Rocky while Wonderwoman goes into no-man's land really got me.

I would argue that, while the bathos used in the airport scene in Civil War does has the effect of undercutting the drama of that moment, that creates a contrast for the final scene at the Hydra base. Yes, even when confronting his friends for violating the Sokovia Accord, Tony is still cracking wise, but when the terrible truth comes out at the end, he drops the "witty guy on top of everything" act because of how deeply hurt he is. The point is, the bathos in the airport scene creates a contrast for the secondary climax so the audience can more deeply feed the tension of THAT moment rather than being fatigued from full seriousness throughout.

I think that Tony's flip flopping in the airport scene sas more about his character then the scene itself. He plays quippy to stand tall for Rhodey, acts tough for Steve, plays light-hearted for Peter (Back to Stoic Steve) then back to quippy for Clint and Wanda. It shows how insecure he is after everything that has gone down in Sokovia. The first scene we see him in just slather on the emotional turmoil by literally showing us the last time he saw his parents then transitions to his guilt after so many have died by having a mother tell Tony that he is a murderer with conviction. I don't know, just my thoughts

Loved this. To quote Doc Hammer, "Cold, aloof irony, and its inherent fear of risk will always lose out to sincerity in the long run. But sadly, in the moment, sincerity takes a beating and gets labeled as "sappy", "dramatic", sentimental", and shit like that, while the safe distance that irony takes is rewarded as "clever"."

Bathos Definitely works best when it also works to help tell the story. Deadpool’s refusal to call Ajax by anything other then his real name helps develop and establish both characters and who they are as people and actually has a lot of layers to it for addressing who Deadpool and Ajax are and defining their for lack of a better word relationship

I loved Wonder Woman.... for the very same reason you described. And I lost interest in Marvel movies for the exact same reason you mentioned. I believe a lot of writers forget that the audience wants to be moved, desires emotion and longs to weep. It is the essential reason to invest oneself in a film- to feel emotion and validate it.

I am so glad I'm not the only one bothered by the collar scene in Dr. Strange. When I saw it the first time I turned to my companion and said "I hated that" out loud; I hated it that much. On the flip side, I loved the Wonder Woman scene where she climbs the latter to enter no man's land. That may become one of movie's classic scenes.

When I watched wonder woman, there was one moment that I found hilarious that I think was unintentional. The moment of the big reveal that Morgon was Ares, and the way he was potrayed to have that same mustache back when he killed the gods in ancient times made me laugh. It was just ridiculous to me and the mustache is sorta anachronistic.

In defence of the airport scene: That is Tony's character. He practically unable to handle situations like this without lighting them up with quipping and jokes. Because otherwise it would weigh too heavy on his shoulders.

They might not be parodies, but I think it's common in super hero films now because they are such tired tropes. It's unfair to ignore the context. Spider-man 2 came out in the early 2000s, where as Doctor Strange 2016. It's likely writers are worried about hitting these cliche moments and so underpin them. However, I also think it's ironic because so many do it that it's more common to find this Bathos over an ACTUAL serious moment, thus why I believe you felt the necessity to contemplate this topic.

oh my god I agree completely. I fucking love the feeling I get from a story that takes its message seriously despite the presentation appearing ridiculous and cartoony. Like Scott Pilgrim, the original Spiderman movies, Speed Racer, and Independence Day. Storytellers HAVE become afraid to be genuine and i think you hit the nail on the head in this video. I hate the tone Marvel has been going for in the last few years. It's just so empty.

This is why in GOTG the "Take my hand" scene at the end is seen as cheesy when it's actually a truly sincere, great heroic moment. It's still a Marvel movie but imagine that same scene but midway through all of them holding each others hand and sharing the force of the Power Stone, Drax farts, music stops, and he goes "sorry" while Ronan eyerolls. That's what Marvel usually does. What Patty Jenkins said about cheesiness is right.

When you were talking about the captain America fight scene being taken away from the dramatic from Iron Man making quips actually made it seem sadder to me because it showed how Tony can't handle his hurt from how he feels. He makes jokes because he doesn't want to feel that actual pain of the betrayal he feels. The the makes made me feel uncomfortable like when your parents are fighting.

...And subscribed.

But most of the Marvel characters are not like Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman is someone who has conviction and is sure of her ability to help people. Marvel characters tend to be much more flawed and wracked with self doubt so they use various defense mechanisms to hide their true feelings, sometimes even tricking themselves. Tony quips not because the story isn't confident in the drama, it's because Tony isn't confident in his ability to face real emotions. The airport fight in Civil War is completely different than Veld or any of the battles in Wonder Woman. Tony didn't want to fight Captain America. He wanted to believe it was still just a disagreement, not a life or death battle. He was being forced into it because General Ross was threatening to use much more force if the situation wasn't quickly resolved.

This how I've felt through a lot of movies I've seen since 2006. But I was never able to articulate this issue like this guy just did. Great video essay. Bring sincerity back to our films.

Best example of this was the beginning of "The Force Awakens". We have an amazing build-up and Kylo-Ren has just slaughtered LOR SAN TEKKA and stops a laser shot mid air in one of the most legendary scenes in the entire Star Wars franchise. As an audience - I was spell-bound. I thought Kylo was the coolest thing since Vader. Then Poe has to go "So who talks first? You talk first?" "It's just very hard to understand you with all the..." and they just took away all the emotions that I had just built-up.

Yesterday I watched WW again, and that scene in No Man's Land, where she shows herself as a proud warrior, got me all teary. Such an inspiring character!

"If your story is sincere enough, then nothing is cheesy." I'll make sure to keep that in mind! Thank you.

If only someone had given Taika Waititi this advice before he made Thor: Ragnarok. There was so much bathos in that movie it was suffocating. I kept hearing the same praise: "I liked Thor: Ragnarok because it didn't take itself too seriously." When did it become a bad thing for a movie to take itself seriously?

This is the first time I've seen a video by this channel. you've convinced me. I want to watch more, and I will.

Thank you! I've been thinking about this ever since I walked out of Guardians of the Galaxy 2 without having felt a single thing. Films like Wonder Woman, Superman, the Dark Knight trilogy and the original Spider-man movies knew how to draw an audience into story without sacrificing the dramatic tension or the core values of the film and I've missed that in films lately so much.

And which is why everyone agrees Wonder Woman is SO badass because she has been focusing on kicking ass instead of cracking some bad jokes. After watching Patty's interview I'm so much more impressed with this woman, she truly knows what to bring to the table, SINCERITY is key.

The moment from Dr. Strange was especially weak, because flipping up the collar was already a joke reference to the Sherlock series and then piles up another 'joke'.

I LOVE THIS CHANNEL. Thanks for the incredible work and analysis.

The jokes in Dr. Strange were poorly timed I agree but I think you may be misreading the battle scene in Civil War. That battle is coming at a point when neither side is really sure how deep the division between the two sides is. All of the characters, especially those who aren't Cap, Iron Man, Panther and Bucky, are still thinking they are dealing with friends who are just standing in their way to an obstacle. I think War Machine's accident is what solidifies the conflict and helps each side see where they really stand and how far they're willing to go to support their cause. The final battle scene between Tony, Bucky and Cap, where all of the characters know exactly how the other characters feel about them, you don't see any humor undercutting the seriousness of the scene.

WTF! This is exatcly what i thought. WW never destroys that continuos emotion you get. They're sub actors for comedic releif but the comedy happens after we hit the highest peak of the emotion and after we settle down again from it. It's how comedy should be done in the movie. And the ending of the movie was super serious i guess if joss did he would have added a joke at that final ares fight scene. And that emotion kept going into the final monologue and ended up in a high. No comedy at the last bit but when the movie finally ends you just laugh at those funny moments they had. These kind of "BATHOS" aren't remembered after watching movie. It just gives a small laugh (more like a giggle , that's it) What if that comedy was used in a way funnier way in a whole separate moment. This movie made me really feel for a superhero the NO MAN's LAND fight is the best INTRODUCTION scene of a character ive seen. I'm saying that coz WONDER WOMAN really came out in that No mans land fight not in others.

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!! I can't tell how much I agree with you! It feels like 'the internet culture' (sorry for the generalisation!) has drawn the sincerity out of so many things. Today it's all about the lulz, the memes, the remixes and the 10 hour versions of that remixes. I don't want to sound like grumpy grampa railing against that indecent, disrespectful youth with their mobile phones and their gameboys and their internets - but it's true to a certain degree. The emotional spectrum seems to be so dominated by humor lately. Now there's nothing wrong about a good laugh, not the tiniest bit. But where do we go as a society when bathos is breaking so many emotional moments in blockbuster movies? Are we overchallenged with sadness? Do we shout "CHEEEESYYYY!" at everything that might be able to get to us at a deeper emotional level? It's no shame to share a character's grief, or to get goosebumps during an emotional speech! Moments like those make us able to feel the same in real life and therefore make a deeper connection with the people around us. But since we award the guy cracking the best joke in the comment section with reactions like "You, Sir, just won the internet!", no matter how serious the case, coping with negative emotions will always be difficult. And that's why there's so much truth in Patty Jenkins' statement against cheesyness. I hope she will be making a lot more movies in the future!

I hate the whole “it’s Tony’s character” argument. There comes a point when something hits a character so hard it takes them out of character, they struggle to deal with it. It should have been like that, especially in Civil War which was practically the build up to Infinity War. It’s why I find that Marvel mostly has zero rewatch value, I’m not invested the first time, so I definitely won’t be the second time. There is no drama, or build up or angst or anything to grip me like there is in most DC films, but for someone reason DC gets the crap for being ‘too dark’.

THANK YOU! SO MUCH! I'm so tired of wiggling back and forth in and out of commitment to anything. I've heard the Wonder Woman line "I can save today, you can save the world" called cheesy -- well, if it's cheese, it's goddamn Muenster. The beauty of Wonder Woman is how it sneaks up on you in all kinds of ways. I've heard cynical dismissals of Steve Trevor's "diverse" ragtag gang, but I find them positively inspired, particularly the Scottish sniper Charlie, and while it's sweet that Diana is moved by a crying baby or an ice cream cone or falling snow -- or a "swaying" Chris Pine -- I connected with her best when she said "No, Charlie, who will sing for us?" That is the stuff. Let us never talk ourselves out of it.

I've missed you!

"If your story is sincere enough, then nothing is cheesy" Well said great video as always. Keep them coming, my friend. You have a lot of wisdom to share

You guys are amazing. Don't stop making these videos. Like ever.

Should have talked about WW more though.

Wonder Woman is an example of how to do dramatic comedy right.

I cried at the end :,) Tanks so much for putting in all the effort to creating this superb essay!

Thanks for this wonderful video. Yes, that last scene of the Rocky movie ALWAYS brings tears to my eyes!

Marvel films aren't totally devoid of sincerity, though they do often undercut it. I'll use Guardians of the Galaxy 2 as an example (also, spoiler alert). When Yondu dies, the scene is completely serious. There's no quips, no wink at the audience, no laughable lines of dialogue. Just real, heart-wrenching interaction between Yondu and Quill as they're flying up into space. When Yondu puts the space-suit on Quill and is delivering his final words, Quill isn't quipping, he's desperately trying to make Yondu reconsider. He's got real, genuine emotion in his voice, which is conveyed even though the majority of his lines in that moment amount to "No." And then when they finally reach space, when Yondu freezes to death, there is an uncomfortably long moment of silence. And there are very few funny moments in the film from that point on, until the credits start rolling. My point is, Marvel is not always undercutting their own dramatic tension. Even in probably the funniest movie in the series, we have that genuine, sincere, emotionally painful scene. While Marvel certainly does sometimes overuse bathos, it is by no means unable to have a sincere moment free of jokes, of winking at the audience.

Ok I might've missed a point of this video so if that happend please forgive me. That being said, I found the last line that Wonder Woman said to Ares before she finished him was misplaced. Or..."cheesy". I was fine with everything in the movie. Heck, Steve's lines to Diana about how humans are flawed was the best thing in the movie. I considered sincerity in that dialougue. But all that was contradicted, in my personal opinion, when WW had to say to Ares that "Love conquers"...or something of that sort. I considered Patty just contradicted her New York Times statement by having this line in the movie. That line could be a "wink to the audience" because "what the kids like". Love is a vague term. Soldiers go to combat because of their loved ones. Civillians die because other soldiers "love" their country or their families. I thought that "Wonder Woman" should be the last movie to have such a statement. Again, I very much likely missed a point in the movie, or in this video. But that is my point.

Most excellent! I've tried to articulate this to friends after seeing Marvel movies, but this does it better than I ever could!

One of my favorite videos on RU-vid. Excellent piece. -NGSMOOV, Randall

Okay how does civil war have bathos in the airport scene. Sure it has jokes but there in character to what Tony Stark and co. do so it never undermined the drama in the scene. Especially since the subtext of most of the quips is 'I am going to stop you by any means.'

I'm sorry, but I think that you're mixing two different things here. One is actually bathos, like the Dr. Strange scene (which I really hated as well). The other one is good characterization of sarcastic, emotionally stunted/distant characters, like Rocket or Tony Stark. I didn't think that Rocket's quip took away from the emotion of the scene, because Rocket is a character who doesn't deal well with emotional moments. So, as a defense mechanism, he would make a quip to stop the awkward, emotional silence. In fact, I felt that the Rocket part *added* to the scene because it acknowledged that he found it emotional as well, and felt the need to somehow acknowledge it while still protecting himself from coming off as too vulnerable. It's underlining the point of the scene *and* adding to the characterization of Rocket in one fell swoop. Similarly, Tony Stark has a lot going on inside his head in the airport scene, and we've already seen enough of Tony Stark to know that his way of coping with serious shit is to make quips, pretend that it's nothing and then take rash and unwise action about it (I do realize that the structure and main conflict of that movie have a lot - *a lot* - of issues, but the particular element of Tony quipping in that scene isn't one of its issues) . I think that you need to differentiate between scenes with earnest emotion and scenes with earnest characters. Peter Parker and Diana Prince are essentially earnest characters, so they will react to emotional moments in earnest ways. If you have a sarcastic/emotionally closed-up character, that doesn't mean that the *scene itself* can't be earnest - it just means that they themselves won't react openly and earnestly (or it would be out of character) and you need to find another way of conveying the mood of the scene. If you are tired of emotionally closed-up and sarcastic characters in media and prefer the more earnest ones, that's okay, it's your own personal preference. But that doesn't mean that the scene is bad. It also doesn't make it bathos.

Best video I’ve seen this year thx

This was excellent. I watch a lot of video essays and have not heard this point made at all

I didn't like wonder woman but now I have a different appreciation for it, all thanks to you

When a scene goes from funny to dramatic it adds an extra feeling for me. you kind of feel guilty for your previous joy. like your laugh has gone sour in your mouth. I think that's an interesting feeling.

thank you so much. This was so useful

Thank you for this video

One important lesson from Wonder Woman: don't trip at the finish line.

This. This right here is exactly what I've been complaining about from Marvel films for years. They always have to ruin dramatic moments for the sake of a joke, and they're getting worse every year about this. This is the reason why Venom was so popular despite critical panning: it's sincere. It's not trying to change the world, it's not trying to show a message and it doesn't have a hidden agenda, but it's not afraid of its story and character. Plus, while there's a lot of humor, none of it comes at the expense of drama. That's why it resonated so much with audiences. Yes, if you're going to sit down and start picking at plot holes it's going to sound like a stupid mess, but if you can just sit down and be emotionally invested in it, it's a really enjoyable ride.

Thank you for helping me with this

also, dude, i love the way you put in clips that perfectly demonstrate your points. The "i love you" layered over wonder woman's totally cheeseball run with the bullet parrying bracers...lol.

when wonder woman jumped out on "no man's land" I felt hope because you could feel her altruism, her innocence, and her yearn to defeat the war

Wonder Woman was literally wonderful and I feel like Marvel should take a slice of their cake. Diana is everything a superhero character should be, taking humour in the right way and not overdoing the humour like Marvel movies.

Wonderful video!

Very well put, thanks