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Wheeling and Dealing at a Bangkok Motorbike Auction 

Rides 4 Kickz
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Today we visit a motorbike and car auction in a suburb of Bangkok and compare the sale and auction process with other wester auctions I have visited previously. We will learn the ropes of wheeling and dealing at the auction and gain some perspective on the market conditions. Is buying a bike or car at a Thai auction a viable option for expats living here? Come along for the ride and find out.
#Thailand #Bangkok #Auction

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2 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 288   
@kunzumla94
@kunzumla94 3 года назад
Hello from lockdown UK. Thanks for entertaining us. Ride safe.
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Glad you enjoyed it
@supersonicsid5930
@supersonicsid5930 3 года назад
Hello Boris , lots of love from sunny Thailand x
@cal1103
@cal1103 3 года назад
First Thai motorbike auction ive seen and ive been in Thailand 20 years thanks :)..maybes the way i buy my next bike.
@macilysis
@macilysis 3 года назад
There is another car guy youtuber, CB Media, currently in Thailand. You can collab with him for car thing.
@eleanor4482
@eleanor4482 3 года назад
That was entertaining. Thanks for taking us along.😎
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Our pleasure!
@nathboz
@nathboz 5 месяцев назад
Thanks bro, awesome job and great info👍🏼
@molonlabe9602
@molonlabe9602 3 года назад
The Honda Wave is the bullet proof Thai workhorse motorcycle. If you can own only 1 motorcycle in Thailand, don't have a lot of money to purchase and/or repair...buy a Honda wave.
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Agree
@davidmarsden2012
@davidmarsden2012 3 года назад
That's what the wife's got No real problems in 7 years
@up2ulivinginthailand791
@up2ulivinginthailand791 3 года назад
Great video, you would have to be the number one Thai content channel. Always interesting and diverse. I think you limit your growth with the rides4kicks name as people presume you only do bike content.
@keithd1219
@keithd1219 3 года назад
Your content is continuously so unique and interesting covering such a wide range of topics. I was thinking the same as you with the on line schill bids, especially after you just mentioned that internet scam your buddy got caught up in. Vee got bamboozled into going with you thinking she was going to get a new bike and the only prize she got was you. 🤣
@sidecar7714
@sidecar7714 3 года назад
Never underestimate the allure of lunch, which we all know is never free.
@keithd1219
@keithd1219 3 года назад
My ultimate move is to Thailand but I often wonder after the allure of the nightlife wears out, which I think will be super quickly after about a month or two, how to keep entertained. So, Loucous' videos empower me to see how I'd keep entertained.
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
haha, maybe a little bit but either way, she was going 🤣
@robertburnett5561
@robertburnett5561 3 года назад
@@keithd1219 Many expats, like Brett Dev, say you have to have something to after the bar scene. And that scene can wear out your $. Me too. Bret talks about online businesses. Or schools and volunteering.
@keithd1219
@keithd1219 3 года назад
@@robertburnett5561 Yea I'm not a drinker....even when I vacation there, going out to the bars is about 10% of my day and I usually drink pineapple juice or water. They love me because it roughly costs the same as alcohol. Basically, I believe life there would involve much what I do now...walking, bicycling, sight seeing...maybe take a thai language course....its not very expensive from what I've read or thai cooking classes.
@pokeamaniwillnotbereplaced
@pokeamaniwillnotbereplaced 3 года назад
Hi Lucus & Vee enjoyed your video, Looks like a good place to get a cheap motor but it's a gamble because you don't know why it is being sold. Could blow up on ya haha but if it's a year old you should be alright. Always check underneath the car because some cars on dirt roads get damaged. The bikes are the same deal buy as seen, buyer beware. No different from any other country. Take care GOD Bless you and yours. M
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Thanks 👍
@eagleplug3348
@eagleplug3348 2 года назад
Your girlfriend seems to be taking FULL ADVANTAGE of you, and she seems to have HIT the JACKPOT with you. hahahaha
@standupmoto
@standupmoto 3 года назад
👍🇦🇺🦘 pretty well identical to the way auctions run in Aus.
@pertuancreek5174
@pertuancreek5174 2 года назад
That yellow light came on as soon as the bidder on the floor placed a bid. Almost simultaneously. I suppose it could be some legit bidder but it might be worth taking a look at their online bidding procedure, yourself, just to see how it works....🤐 Cheers.
@bigmike6853
@bigmike6853 3 года назад
This was a really good video. Looks like a great way to buy a bike at a good price vs buying a new one.
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Glad you liked it!
@joehaveaheart4088
@joehaveaheart4088 3 года назад
Enjoyed it. Never thought about going to an auction in Thailand. Will now. Thanks.
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Have fun!
@midgek-hdahlke6378
@midgek-hdahlke6378 3 года назад
Hi Lucas thank you for a new information . Allways nice to look at your videos .
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
My pleasure!
@EddieManning
@EddieManning 3 года назад
Hi Loucous, very interesting film. That 2 year old CB150 at 33K (+tax and premium) was an absolute bargain. I test rode and looked at that as an option before buying my ADV150. I may be adding to my parking garage soon if prices are like that! That looks like a very professional auction outfit. Shame that you couldn't stay until the big bikes were auctioned.
@rossharley8285
@rossharley8285 3 года назад
Hello m8 : do they have property action in pattaya ???? :
@barrygunning2529
@barrygunning2529 3 года назад
I'm with you on the shell idea I've been to auctions in the UK and phone and online bids push up the price to me seems dodgy. Enjoyed ur video
@stuarthessinger4101
@stuarthessinger4101 3 года назад
A very interesting video today. Poor Vee what you want and what you get are two different things 🤣 The traffic is typical for Bangkok and surrounding areas.
@gogs244
@gogs244 3 года назад
Be cautious about flood damaged vehicles there
@fakewaysful
@fakewaysful 3 года назад
Please go try CRF450L and make a review video for us!
@supersonicsid5930
@supersonicsid5930 3 года назад
You would have to go with a clued up Thai person . Those auctioneers sounded like frantically scared chickens at a slaughter house .
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Haha, I thought it was fine, I easily could follow along and they had large screens for the bid changes as well. That's why I really wanted to go there, I could not grasp how it went by watching online so much.
@rickmoody6984
@rickmoody6984 3 года назад
That auction was interesting. My Dad was a used car dealer here in Maine and when I was a kid, I use to get to go to some auctions with him. When he was retired and wintered in Florida, he was a driver for a couple auction houses around Lakeland Fl. When ever I was down there I would go hang around the auctions and chat with him. We always figured phone bids were suspect. It seemed when the price was low on an absolute sale the phone would ring. I did see some great deals but you needed dealer plates and a dealer license to bid. I would love to have seen how much them larger bikes went for in Bangkok.
@normanbrown1944
@normanbrown1944 3 года назад
Thanks for this video. Maybe I'll see you at one in the future.
@bigal2417
@bigal2417 3 года назад
great video very interesting insight, do the same video on cars/trucks if you can please
@moayyed_motorcycle_customs907
@moayyed_motorcycle_customs907 3 года назад
Cool always wanted to see how is the motorcycle auction in Thailand. Thanks
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
No problem 👍
@chrismcfalls9392
@chrismcfalls9392 3 года назад
Good morning Everybody!!
@craigross341
@craigross341 3 года назад
26,000 Baht is not a lot of money for what looks like pretty decent transport. You'd get many years use out a little low mileage scooter.
@ranger70
@ranger70 3 года назад
The auctioneers were awesome. You could buy Vee a Honda wave
@murraylouis5956
@murraylouis5956 3 года назад
I’m a car dealer and deal with auctions every day, the online bids are genuine bids here in Australia as you need to prove your ID first and have a registered credit card before they will allow you to be able to place a bid at auction, some of those cars looked to me to be above what I consider they are worth but the bikes did look to be value. I’m moving to Thailand in the near future so I think I’ll be having a good look at that auction for sure!
@grahamjohnson4702
@grahamjohnson4702 3 года назад
It's hard to judge resale car/pick-up prices in Thailand because they are high I was told because a lot are reclaims and the credit company wants good return. Because they are so high when someone looks for a replacement or first car/pick-up the new prices are so close that people pay a little extra for new rather than second hand. It may also be due to repayment rates being higher for second hand. I was told that is why there are so many large second hand car plots.
@keithd1219
@keithd1219 3 года назад
That's pretty cool Murray. I, unfortunately know where the gas goes in and thats about it, which is why I always buy new. I have no wheeler dealer skills lol
@murraylouis5956
@murraylouis5956 3 года назад
@@keithd1219 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@BoyceBailey
@BoyceBailey 3 года назад
check out CB Media's channel for fun car-related stuff in Thailand
@daveduncan9034
@daveduncan9034 3 года назад
If the company running the auction makes all the rules...its akin to whomever has all the gold makes all the rules...its shady as fuck....
@robertjean659
@robertjean659 3 года назад
Great video, but I am always suss at auctions too many bogus bid/bidders pushing prices up.
@naderahmedabdulla1097
@naderahmedabdulla1097 3 года назад
Lucas, could you please tell Vee there are "MAY MEE KUNG" on the trees 🤣🤣🤣 ... CHEE CHEE sound reminds me of ICQ message notifications 😊😊😊
@JohnLadda
@JohnLadda 3 года назад
Great video. Interesting to see how it works. 👍
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Thank you! Cheers!
@justjeff4173
@justjeff4173 3 года назад
That Mitsu engine was doing an excellent impression of a paint shaker
@mauihowey
@mauihowey 3 года назад
Wow, loved this video.....great info on what is needed to bid and purchase of motorbike.....great job Lucas!
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Thanks so much!
@mangostickyrice555
@mangostickyrice555 3 года назад
Very cool 😎, Never knew that ever existed in Thailand👍
@jaredlash5002
@jaredlash5002 3 года назад
'Uh oh!" That reminds me of one of the late 90's instant messenger clients. :D
@anthonydowling3356
@anthonydowling3356 4 дня назад
This old video popped up in my feed .An update to what i wrote 3 years ago .If just buying one bike i would not use an auction .I would use something like FB Marketplace .Buying privately you can negotiate and take a test ride .You can not take a test ride at a Thai Auction. Looking at the video again i noticed a BMW amongst the big bikes .I would have been curious to see how much that went for ,but i know that you had to leave early .
@armunro
@armunro 3 года назад
Went to that auction many years ago. Good to see current prices. Thai economy has been hit by Covid like everyone else so I suspect prices are low and there is plenty of bikes going to auction?
@ThaiLife2122
@ThaiLife2122 3 года назад
Good One - Learned something new today!
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Glad to hear it!
@FUToob
@FUToob 3 года назад
How many were totaled and repaired? The used market there is very sketchy due to that - fake docs., etc.
@jerrypatton6873
@jerrypatton6873 2 года назад
You seem to get gratified from the thought you weren't going to buy your lady a bike, I suppose it could have been a Communications issue. But as I was interpreting this video, you were going to buy a bike. For this reason I give you a thumbs down. I lived in Pattaya for almost 3 years back in the early 90's.
@johnherd2108
@johnherd2108 3 года назад
Hello, I’m doing my quarantine at the moment, but when I’m out I’ll be looking for a larger bike. This seems like a good way of finding a reasonably priced bike. If you’re up for a beer and bike talk let me know, it would be good to get the rundown on owning a motorbike in Thailand. Cheers John
@bigbpdx
@bigbpdx 2 года назад
A couple of times I've heard you mention your touring bike, but I've never seen it. What is your touring bike?
@Buggsy61
@Buggsy61 3 года назад
We have a lot of car auctions here in UK but most of the cars are trade ins that car dealerships have pretty much written off and would not dream of trying to sell on their own forecourt. There’s the odd bargain to be had but most are old wrecks so it’s a case of ‘caveat emptor’. - let the buyer beware!. Interesting content as always - cheers
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Yes, lots of junk at auctions, have to be careful.
@henningandreassen1231
@henningandreassen1231 6 месяцев назад
Hi i have a 2022 Yamaha Tricity 300 a 3 wheel Maxie Scooter here in Norway i love the bike . Thay allso made a Tricity 125 and a 155 cc i would love to get one in thailand Have you ever seen them around 125 or 155 and yes the 300 . Thank You have a great day .
@JohnMitch
@JohnMitch 3 года назад
One wonders if these auction houses take bids off the wall and lights
@phantim_othy571
@phantim_othy571 3 года назад
Thanks Lucas for another great informative video.... This is great mate...
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Glad you liked it!
@robertjackson9601
@robertjackson9601 3 года назад
Listening to that auction was hilarious. Thanks for another great video.
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Glad you enjoyed it
@iandann8788
@iandann8788 3 года назад
I worked at a car auction in west London in the early 70's , and always thought it a good concept here . Didn't know about these ones in BKK . For some reason used car priced hold up here , don't know why
@CryptoSteve007
@CryptoSteve007 3 года назад
Absolutely and undoubtedly those Auctioneer's are pulling bids off the wall to escalate the price of these bikes.
@nwced
@nwced 3 года назад
Guess car prices are high in most Asian countries. I'm in the Philippines and used car prices are totally crazy here
@johntheaccountant5594
@johntheaccountant5594 3 года назад
Those taxes and auction fees add up a lot when you win a Honda Wave at auction at a bargain price of 20,000 baht.
@Peruss
@Peruss 3 года назад
Ha Ha @ 11:43 He's "Buy Curious" Cant believe my wife just rattled that one off out of nowhere.
@citystar87
@citystar87 3 года назад
300% duty tax on any imports is why used has such a good resale market
@snowthaimc9968
@snowthaimc9968 3 года назад
The used market for big bikes has that same import duty [depending on the model] built in to the resale price. You will see Harley Sportsters rarely under THB 500,000 used - of almost any age here. Ducati Monster’s go for less both new and used primarily because they were assembled at the Ducati factory in Rayong and are subject to a lower re-import duty
@marcosteffano
@marcosteffano 3 года назад
Good idea but he didn’t really show much in the way of what was selling for what price.he should of researched it a bit more and forget about what hewants to eat.
@PaulA-kr1nl
@PaulA-kr1nl 3 года назад
High tax on vehicles gets high demand for used ones. Even a junker with no engine fetches $2k lol
@user-vy8lo6ur1z
@user-vy8lo6ur1z Год назад
Used motorcycle is my business, is possible to export this bike form Thailand to other country ?
@geofferyrobertson6608
@geofferyrobertson6608 2 года назад
you have to go back for the bigger bikes ....... 555555. ... Please
@MarkFerguson-e6d
@MarkFerguson-e6d Год назад
Buyer agent bid is very common here in Australia. Makes going most times a waste of time
@dannyjarrell9625
@dannyjarrell9625 3 года назад
Yea we have one in town 10 0/0 down to bid. 10 0/0 buyers fee. Most all vehicles posted with all info including any problems. You must make appt to see or drive. Some bids are way over priced
@bitsurfer0101
@bitsurfer0101 3 года назад
It seems like some just bid so they can say they won the bidding war. It seems like a pissing contest.
@sandybeach4360
@sandybeach4360 3 года назад
We should start a GoFundMe or buy me a coffee for Vee. Every watcher put in US$1 so Lucas can present the Wave to Vee on Christmas day.
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
I like that idea 😁
@sandybeach4360
@sandybeach4360 3 года назад
@@Rides4Kickz So plan and execute please. We have enough time to get it done properly.
@mcscootie
@mcscootie 3 года назад
@@sandybeach4360 by Xmas she'll have enough for a Shelby mustang 🤣🤣
@PREPFORIT
@PREPFORIT 3 года назад
That was really interesting I would definitely go just to watch then bid on a bike the next time. Were there any Electic bikes there for auction?
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Nope, no electrics
@groundsmen1
@groundsmen1 3 года назад
Common Lucas what bike did V want?😁😁😁
@jimmyjimmy4286
@jimmyjimmy4286 3 года назад
Great way to buy a bike there R4K represents huge saving over new/2nd hand perhaps even get someone to go for you / with you if can't speak Thai etc. I'd be interested in buying that way for sure. Really useful vid thanks a lot for sharing big thumbs up from me in UK 🇬🇧
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Thanks 👍
@pilotsimms535
@pilotsimms535 3 года назад
Yep same exact thing here in SoCal.
@billshuey7422
@billshuey7422 3 года назад
I still hope I can find a YZ 125 as a second dirtbike
@ralphlewis6773
@ralphlewis6773 3 года назад
Here in the states, the Honda Fit is the same as Thailand's Honda Jazz. The 2 times I've rented a car in Issan, it has been a Honda Jazz. Good little car.
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Yes, for a small car, lots of room inside.
@metalextras
@metalextras 3 года назад
Perhaps this vid can be more fun, if you bought one from here! cheers!
@boomslang1015
@boomslang1015 3 года назад
Great episode! Enjoyed. The cb150 seemed like a great deal but aren't the Honda Waves like 44k brand new? Now you have to get Vee a scooter! 😂
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Yes, I didn't think most of them were a value over buying new. There is a huge demand for them right now though with the explosion in online delivery, both for food and other types of currier work so i think the prices of the used ones are slightly inflated right now.
@motorart4670
@motorart4670 3 года назад
Were there any zx25r s there
@johnkstealth
@johnkstealth 3 года назад
Where do these vehicles come from that are at auction? repossessed?
@ScorpionVonScotts600
@ScorpionVonScotts600 2 года назад
Missed your calling Mr. Radio Announcer 😂
@EternallyGod
@EternallyGod 3 года назад
People can bid you up in person just as likely as someone could online.
@achimmaak779
@achimmaak779 3 года назад
🏍️🏍️🏍️🚙🚙🚙 COOL 👍👌😎 Liebe Grüße von Achim 🇩🇪🙏🙏🙏
@chandlerbingbong
@chandlerbingbong 3 года назад
1st time I've seen a Thai woman ling da bell.
@GlitteratiLive
@GlitteratiLive 3 года назад
Your videos keep improving, and they were good to begin with. Thanks for the interesting information.
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Glad you like them!
@Kasey128
@Kasey128 3 года назад
Looks the same , I’m in RI United States. I’m so glad you put this video up . I was thinking about buying a few bikes to keep busy when I arrive back in Thailand. I think it can be a good side hustle . Sell to expats in Pattaya when they arrive. I’m sure you have a few ideas also . Thanks for the information.
@rocrobert783
@rocrobert783 3 года назад
You may need a work permit
@TheThailightZone
@TheThailightZone 3 года назад
Car prices in Thailand are ridiculously high
@sswmastering
@sswmastering 3 года назад
oh we have auctions alright but nothing like the one in this vid, if so Id have about 5 bikes.
@ivabiggin2299
@ivabiggin2299 3 года назад
Thanks this Lucas as a car &motorbike fanatic I found this interesting you certainly cover a lot of things
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Glad you enjoyed it!
@AndersGetherSoerensen
@AndersGetherSoerensen 3 года назад
Yes. We have several auctions in Denmark.
@terrycavender
@terrycavender 3 года назад
The BMW looked interesting..... 🤔
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Older model though, but looked in good shape.
@bellsbeach1208
@bellsbeach1208 3 года назад
I only bid online here and in uk so yes they are real - it’s private buyers that bid up too much
@propellerhead2000
@propellerhead2000 3 года назад
Union Auto Auction up in Huai Khwang is a good one too.
@Retire-py2yk
@Retire-py2yk 3 года назад
I was more interested in the noodle soup than the Bikes.. Something is wrong with me :) :) That noodle soup looooooook goooood :)
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Yes, great flavor that.
@terryodom1124
@terryodom1124 3 года назад
Does Vee ride besides being the passenger
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
She claims she can but she does not have a bike right now.
@grahamjohnson4702
@grahamjohnson4702 3 года назад
Up date for information for other viewers, for the second day in a row your video appeared to be low resolution which I thought was strange and anyway on checking I found my resolution setting had somehow changed to 480, upon resetting this to 1080 the quality is now what I expect from your videos. Not sure how things change on their own but maybe I did something I did not do on purpose. Anyway all OK now.
@petalson
@petalson 3 года назад
Thanks, the same was for me.
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Sometime if a slow down in internet speed is detected, even for a couple seconds, the RU-vid app will lower it's resolution to enable you to keep watching. Happens to me all the time too.
@bookingsessential
@bookingsessential 3 года назад
Love your work... You really seem to be covering everything I'm interested in. I planning on doing the retirement visa thing. Buy a bike. Did a tour on a Honda 750 adventure bike late1999 as a experiment, Bangkok, BuriRam, did some ancient ruins n stuff. then back to Pattaya. Loved it. Was going to move but... boom... And you know what happened then.
@malasacoffeemalasacoffee3749
@malasacoffeemalasacoffee3749 2 года назад
Although I reside in the Philippines, your blogs, videos are FAR more interesting than the idots who walkaround angeles showing EXACTLY the same things in their last 200 blogs...thank you sir
@richardc488
@richardc488 3 года назад
Where the hell is your used motorbike you purchased that was being worked on? Did you get robbed?
@Rides4Kickz
@Rides4Kickz 3 года назад
Nope, still have it here.
@ant2312
@ant2312 3 года назад
@ richard c maybe whatch the videos like the rest of us have and you'd know it got fixed and gets taken out now and then
@Swimfinz
@Swimfinz 3 года назад
Nice video, thank you for a fine presentation. Yes, Thailand produces 275-300k motorcycles per month for the global market.
@gdmedia660
@gdmedia660 3 года назад
His voice is really not good
@scottmcinire93
@scottmcinire93 3 года назад
Yes that was Cool 👍 I liked that video. If you move to Thailand you will need transportation and everyone wants to get there money's worth of product. I'm a ole mixer so I'd probably buy my bike there. Thanks for the video I enjoyed it very much.😃👍
@madhawk95
@madhawk95 3 года назад
Where does the inventory come from? I've been to a DoJ auction when I was in Arizona USA and most (if not all) of those vehicles were seized vehicles and because they were drug related seizures, they were pretty messed up from the police looking for drugs. I was curious if these were repossessed vehicles, excess dealer vehicles or what. Thanks again for the great videos, love them!
@RobertSantos-rw8dy
@RobertSantos-rw8dy 3 года назад
Minburi, up along the hospital way... Thanks for sharing this event.. interesting.. but still would buy new.
@leonardburns4589
@leonardburns4589 3 года назад
Glad to see this . Love auctions car, trucks, bikes, furniture Land anything. Are auctions pretty common in Thailand? Hope to see more of them. Like your content. Thanks
@BrandenLesko
@BrandenLesko 3 года назад
The flow of the auction seemed to go at a slightly faster pace than the ones here where I currently live (Ohio, USA). We also don't have online or phone-in bids either. All bidders must be present on site to make a bid, which I think is the way a proper auction should be held. I'm also not really surprised at the higher prices of cars compared to the motorcycles in Thailand. Cars and trucks generally hold their value quite well there because the overall price of cars and trucks are generally higher to begin with due to the import taxes. Used motorbikes are generally cheaper because there are so many of them around.
@moonlighter6
@moonlighter6 3 года назад
Enjoyed the Thai auction, very similar style and specifics to America. Hated when Northern colder climate bidders came to the South to buy vehicles that had not experienced salted snowy roads, bid prices greatly increased.
@marcanthonyskidmore4131
@marcanthonyskidmore4131 3 года назад
Do you know if it is easy to get a classic 92-94 CB400 in the Bangkok area? With documents or without is fine.
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