Joey, I feel like you’re one of the only content creators I’ve heard who appreciates Guildless Commons… and I appreciate that about you. The card is great. 👍
Can’t wait to hear the episode, but before it starts, it reminds me of why I love Jadar. Those “decayed” triggers that kill his token actually inspired me to build a deck around death triggers vs amassing zombie tokens, and it’s been a blast.
I've been avoiding Decayed zombies in my Zombie deck (Sidisi, Brood Tyrant, my main) but you've opened my eyes. Free death triggers are indeed tempting. I'll reconsider the mechanic for future updates. Thanks!
I think one of my favorite "downside as upside" is when you use the Legend Rule to complete the Sharuum, the Hegemon + "Clone"-Artifacts combo. I can only have ONE legend and have to sac my other BEFORE I have to choose targets for the trigger? Well boy howdy! Looks like it just turned "Murder/Resurrect the same Clone over and over for value"-O'clock!!
Yeah, nice one, the legend rule can be an amazing upside. In Orvar, I like copying Kairi to get its death triggers, clearing the board or recurring spells.
the bounce lands are also just good because they're card advantage. you play your land, you play your bounce land, and you play the first land again. you're doing the work of three lands (making three mana, using three land drops) with two cards.
I like using them to reset lands. When I need to play Bojuka Bog again for example. One of my earlier hug decks, I had to keep bouncing reliquary tower so I could discard to hand size to shuffle my grave into library to not deck out.
Thanks, Joey! Zephyr Net is an aura that gives a creature defender and flying. Sometimes that's good for stopping a scary attacker. But in my Arcades deck, it's for MY creatures, because defender is an upside! I love casting it on a Charix to turn it into a 17/17 flyer 😎
In my Henzie deck, I've taken a massive liking to Chain Devil in the list. Since nobody's heard of this card before, it's a 4-mana 4/2 with "When Chain Devil enters the battlefield, each player sacrifices a nontoken creature." While edicts on creatures like this are normally a 3-mana effect a la Fleshbag Marauder, having Chain Devil as a 4-drop instead in Henzie is actually a really big upside. I get to blitz the devil out for 3 mana or sometimes less anyway, it draws me a card when I inevitably sacrifice it to its own ability, and I get to dodge the tokens that typically make such edict effects less good in many matchups and board states? Yes please. That card is a house every time I play it, and cycling it in and out of the graveyard is so much fun every time I get the opportunity.
A very simple and unassuming card that I like in my Henzie deck is Gravedigger. Spending as little as a single mana to recover a creature to Blitz is pretty good!
Another upside of the bouncelands is getting back an mdfc later in the game. Dunno if it quite counts as a hidden drawback but I had High Priest of Penance in my Karlov deck even though he's not that synergistic but hey, decent blocker. The one time I play him, he gets immediately Go For The Throated, reanimated, and almost cost me the game (for reference, the deck is like 8-0, so especially heinous). Cut it for Divine Reckoning at fuckin' light speed. In a similar vein to Grave Betrayal, still remember playing the Strixhaven precons. Player begore me wipes the board, I'm like cool, I can pop out tgis Debtor's Knell I've been sitting on all game and maybe get a few bois back without four people jumping my ass. Gets around a turn cycle... and right before my turn the Quandrix player Krosan Grips it :/
This video was great as always and well put together, but its funny that the #1 takeaway I got is that I can make a reference to The Room every time I play a High Market.
New term proposal for modes on a card that you don't use: It's the card's extended warranty. "Yea Disallow is great, but i didn't wanna pay an extra blue for a Counterspell with an extended warranty".
Disallow is kind of an odd example. There are more efficient counters, but most of them (OG Counterspell being an obvious exception) are either restricted in terms of what they can counter, or they can be powered through if the opponent is willing and able to pay extra.
I have a Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle voltron deck that I built specifically to not go infinite. I had the idea while building the deck to forego many of the normal instant or sorcery interaction spells to instead use creatures that sacrifice themselves that I can then use over and over because of Teshar's ability. Shelter turned into selfless spirit, disenchant turned into cathar commando, swords turned into bounty agent, and so on. I lost some versatility but I gained a *ton* of repeatability. A natural progression of this deckbuilding decision was to include the card Martyr's Bond. It's a fantastic way for me to lock down the board late and really drive home that your game is over. Even with just a couple of self-sacrificing creatures I can easily keep the whole board down for extended periods of time. One of my favorite cards in the deck that I absolutely *love* to play is Phyrexian Soulgorger. Not only does it get amazing looks of confusion whenever I play it, but it just fits the deck perfectly. It's a historic spell, it's cheap enough that it can be brought back with teshar, and it just scales so well with the game. Early on I can throw creatures with valuable ETBs into the yard so they can do it again but if that's not an option I can just let it go to the bin itself so I can bring it back later. In the midgame I can keep it as a tough blocker on the ground or to pressure life totals if someone still doesn't have a solid ground game set up. Then, in the late game, I can pour tons of creatures into it that wouldn't otherwise die so Martyr's bond can go even harder. I would argue that, for the build I came up with, it's the perfect card.
Ah, see I thought this was going to be about something slightly different, which might also make an interesting episode: Cards like Braid of Fire that DID have a serious downside when they were first released, which later became pure upside as the rules changed (in that case, the elimination of the mana burn rule) or new mechanics or formats made the downside irrelevant.
Really interesting video, i think you honed in on why i like decks like Grismold or Willowdusk. The act of weaponizing weird downside heavy cards is really fun!
Bouncelands are definitely one of the most commonly undervalued lands. They're so close to being a tap land that cantrips. And almost always drawing a card is a great use of 1 mana. Then you get all the potential upsides like untapping it, land fall triggers, resetting MDFC/Channel Lands or other ETB effects, discarding for reanimation, reducing land count for catch up ramp, getting back a card locked with imprisoned in the moon/Song of the dryads, etc... Include one in every 2c deck, and add in Guildless Commons if there are some additional interactions. Don't really add a third in 3c decks unless it's a lands deck or similar that really wants them and has a higher land count. It's just really awkward drawing too many of them all at once in the early game.
My favorite example of this is cards that are like "look at the top x cards of your library, put y in your hand and the rest into your graveyard" where the idea is the upside is card selection and the drawback is you have to yeet a few cards into the graveyard, but here i am, playing graveyard synergies and going "i get to put cards in my hand AND in my graveyard? gee golly!"
Turning downside (damage/loss of life) into an upside is the entire premise behind my Licia deck. I hurt myself to gain life, get her out cheap, often sacrifice her for value, and cash any extra life in for more value. Greven and Treasonous Ogre are in this deck as are two auras you probably will never see anywhere else, Death Watch and Dying Wish. Put one of these on Licia, use her ability to go to 8/8 sacrifice her to Greven’s trigger and you refill your hand with 8 cards, lose 16 life, gain 8 life, have a 26/5 Greven to dome someone with, AND you can recast her second main for only RWB. That’d make a good #challegethestats.
One classic example of a downside being very easy to exploit is Wirewood symbiote. I use it in my Rocco, Cabaretti Caterer to bounce my commader to tutor again. Its always the first creature I get, and the rest of the deck is built around recurrsion for either wirewood or various threats.
So I have a henzie deck with a super high curve. I run protection racket as a draw spell but I let go of the idea that the loss of powerful cards isn't all that bad when my cute little 3 mana enchantment turns free ranged high damage. Every game it does 20+ damage, with the bonus that late game I get card draw. From time to time I get politic points and it's just so much fun each time I play it and it's downside it completely over shadowed by its upside. I should note the deck isn't combo it's just big beaters that recycle into more big beaters
Greven, Predator Captain is my commander. I use hex parasite to lose as much life as I want. Conflagrate discarding your hand when firey temper was in standard was awesome. Made playing anthem of rakdos so much better.
My favorite "not actually a downside" is the line "When this enter the battlefield, return a creature* you control to its owner's hand" *: Sometimes more than one, sometimes specifying ANOTHER, sometimes other types of permanent, but you all get the point.
Hazezon Tamar's exile clause is a great upside against changelings... or if you target a person with Shields of Velis Vel. It is also a deck I run many sac outlets in, so 1 mana exiling a player's creatures at instant speed? Sign me up!
I advise running Thunderclap, Crash, and Surveyor's Scope as well, as these will allow you immense flexibility in manipulating your land-count and allow you more options for interaction.
Fire's Of Invention in my Mogis God of Slaughter deck. Only cast two spells a turn, only on your own turn but they are free as long as you have the number of lands required to cast them. It was actually one of the most unique cards in the deck according to edhrec but it has won me games. Usually when that hits the table, my opponents have a much harder time keeping up with me. Putting two burning hate pieces down a turn is just wild while only needing 4-5 lands available. I don't to protect my pieces, I just need to go faster and Fires does that so well.
I'm a landfall user and I find Ravnica bounce lands to be nice in giving me more landfall trigger. :> Especially when it comes to a near-infinite combo I got introduced to in 2019 involving them, Retreat to Coralhelm and either Walking Atlas or Sakura-Tribe Scout. :3 Oh, and if I throw in either Spleunking or Amulet of Vigor into that combo, I'd have near-infinite mana. :0c But my builds for my Temur Elemental commander deck in real-life and TTS (Tabletop Simulator) play is not trying to intentionally or consistently do that combo; and mainly happens occasionally if I happen to have the pieces.
I’m guna add a note to those bounce lands, specifically in my yarok deck. It seems like those are super bad in yarok due to the doubling of the “return a land to your hand” trigger. But returning 2 lands to hand for even MORE landfall triggers that are DOUBLED because of yarok….kinda nutty
the most downside that's actually a upside commander I own is Willowdusk, and it's hillarous that the most scary cards in that deck are Infernal contract and a bunch of 2 mana flying, lifelink creatures
I've come around on Mana Flare-type effects in the right deck. Often most decks don't know what to do with more than 8-9 mana and end up wasting a lot of it. In my Ashling the Pilgrim deck, Ashling literally can't get enough mana and is happy to play with (and use effectively!) 10-20 mana each turncycle.
I believe bouncelands were stone unplayable for several years, but not for that reason - between 2012 and 2014 or so, I played several games where someone would cast Decimate or something else that forced them to destroy a land, but there was no land they particularly wanted to destroy, so they picked my bounceland solely because it tapped for two mana. I'd be two turns behind and all but out of the game for no good reason, just because I made the mistake of putting bouncelands in my deck. I *still* haven't regained enough trust to put them in three-color decks, but I have one in my two-color decks because...I guess I figure the chance that I'll draw it in a situation where someone wants to destroy it is a third of it could be? I dunno. I have trust issues.
I adore the bouncelands, I just wish the colourless and monocolour ones were pauper legal, it’s funny that Orzhov Basilica was shown because in my PDH Minthara commander deck if I’m ahead on lands but don’t have a reliable way to earn experience from leaves the battlefield triggers, I can continuously play the basilica and get experience each turn! On lands too, in my Darien, King of Kjeldor deck I do run all five damage lands that I can plus Vesuva and Thespian’s Stage, Tarnished Citadel is sooo bad in every other deck for the three damage for one mana but it’s instant speed make three 1/1s for me!
Hi Joey! I can't wait to hear about your statistics on commander games this year! Will Baby Lasagna be your most played deck? Did you disassemble some of your least played decks? What was your percentage of wins with Wilhelt, it's gonna be a great video!
One hidden downside I discovered in my questing beast deck (basically monoG stompy/vultron) is cards that want to be played in the first mainphase. There are quite a few cards that heavily encourage casting spells postcombat, by turning your combat step into extra mana or cards. But casting like an aura for instance at that point and not getting to swing with it, is quite awkward.
My favorite card is Rite of Oblivion for exactly this reason. You're telling me I get to exile an opponent's big threat AND sacrifice one of my own nonland permanents to trigger any number of abilities I may have on my side of the board, and I can do that not once but TWICE? This isn't even considering how asymetrical a card going to exile vs the graveyard already is on its face. Every deck I play it in has only ever benefited from its inclusion.
I've recently discovered the power of Araumi, and the "downside" of Teferi's Veil removing attackers lets me keep them after the encore trigger would have sacrificed them. Also the fun of Mirkwood Bats loving that the encore tokens sac themselves.
Great video. Boardwipes are more 😂 always dawnside but in my landfall deck it is upside thanks to Yedora, Grave Gardener. Also thanks to cards what can return nobasic land to hand i can return notoken creature to hand. Yedora ability also trigger any landfall triggers. Love Ravinca bounce land. Obuum ability to animate land in to creature is super you can always sacrfice it to Greater Good.
I run Atrax, Grand Unifier. On several occasions, I have hit all parts of my win condition in a single trigger of her ETB. So, if I can't win on the spot, the game imidiately becomes Archenemy.
Geth, Thane of Contracts. He gives all your other creatures -1/-1, but he can reanimate anything in your graveyard (at sorcery speed) for 3. I tried making a deck around things that instantly die because of the -1/-1. It ended up being poor, but I suspect that's because I split my deck between death triggers and reanimating big threats, rather than focusing on one. Also, black has a lot of things that make people discard, and I'm really on the fence about that sort of effect - one the one hand, it's efficient, on the other, nobody likes to play without cards in their hand :/
xavier sal can sac a counter to populate. mystic remora's age counters arent so bad when you can keep them low and remove them each turn. same with suspend, sludge, -1/-1 etc
Madcap Experiment is normally a really bad artifact "tutor",...but Auntie Blyte loves it. You mean I can deal upwards of 20 damage to myself AND possibly get a Basilisk Collar or Loxodon Warhammer to get it all back with a now lethal shoulder devil?
My first commander is Prossh, Skyraider of Kher. He spawns his mana cost in kobold tokens, and he eats creatures in order to power up. With the default 6 kobolds and double strike, he seings for lethal. Cost reduction is a really bad idea in this deck.
I'm not really sure on this but my enchantment Onslaught on my Cascading Sliver deck kinda helps with tapping down my opponents creatures since it is a cast trigger.
One with nothing + Swamp + dark ritual + cabal ritual + tormods crypt + demonic consultation + sinkhole: play swamp, cast dark ritual into cabal ritual, play demonic consultation naming black lotus, play tormods crypt, play sinkhole targeting your swamp, play one with nothing than crack the tormods crypt and you will have no cards in hand, deck or graveyard! You see joey its usefull!!!!
Kibo giving opponents banana tokens. I also run primal vigor in that deck to double the treasure and banana tokens that my opponents make. this makes my vandalblast even more powerful
Sol ring gets run in too many decks where the early negative attention isn't worth the colorless ramp. Also modal cards are hard to evaluate; they can be a real waste if you only use the one mode and a great pick if those extra modes have a chance of popping up
it's funny, I've commented on other videos about this deck before but I still think it applies here. I had a commander who's upside ended up being the deathnell of the deck. Athreos, god of passage. I thought it would be fun to have a lot of hate/value bears, sack them for extra value, and get even more value off of them because of the commander. I played 2 games with it and took the deck apart as I realized forcing my opponents into a series of rhystic studies-esque choices every turn is even more annoying than rhystic studies itself (hate that card btw). by the third or fourth time I say "do you wanna pay 3 or does it go to my hand" even I would lose interest in the game.
Sublime Epiphany is a perfect example of a modal card that seems ridiculously good at first, but then once you’re in the middle of a game where you’ve got it in your grip, you realise that there is *no* way you’re going to be able to leave up 6 mana every turn on the *chance* you’ll need to use it 😬😬😬
I think an example I have been seeing a lot more is Teferi's Protection. Its great at avoiding board wipes, but leaves you open to Stompy and Voltron Commanders.
I love leveraging discard. Magar of the Magic Strings loves those looting cards to dump spells to reanimate, and I swear when I get my hands on it, I'm going to use One With Nothing with Magar or Oskar, Rubbish Reclaimer. Both of them love discard enough where it can be leveraged.
Eh i still play gisa and geralf in my wilhelt deck, the nonbo of it dying to one card in the deck is nothing compared to the value of casting a zombie from grave every turn plus the mill 4
My big moment was when I was piloting a Kaervek the Spiteful list to test out mono black (i was trying to get into playing black cause its the opposite of my playstyle) and I got the biggest flavor win on top of winning the game on the spot casting: Kaervek's Spite! It has the absolute biggest downside ive ever seen, but it was the killing blow, as I sacrificed everything i could in response to deal damage first, then let it resolve. Everyone got killed and one guy was put below 5 life, and i targeted him with the spell, and I won the game with no permanents and no hand!
Funny enough skullclamp could also work for the opposite direction, ive seen people play it while they have some buff effect that keeps their thing alive after clamp lol
It takes a special kind of stupid to see a card that is two land cards at the same time while only taking one deck slot and think it's unplayable. They're one of if not THE strongest cycle of dual color lands ever printed.
Im confused why helm of the gods is bad/huge opportunity cost here. I get that all that glitters is a replacement, but if you want two copies then the helm is fine no? If the worry is you not casting an enchantment, is the 1 mana really that big of a deal? Like is there really no time for 1 spare mana in that style of deck? I cant see how its a "hidden drawback" when the drawback is a 1 mana drop that you can play at any point in the game.
Bouncelands are generally speaking, unplayable. Yes there's corner cases such as landfall or (degenerate) reanimator strategies where they may be good... but generally, unplayable 😂
I have to say i really dislike the term card advantage. Its so esoteric and makes no sense to me. Its been described as the number of cards in your hand, or the number of cards, on the battlefield and your hand, or even the number of cards you have access to. For me thats all well and good, but if the cards you have access to cannot help you move forward your game plan, or cannot remove a threat, or prevent a loss, then its not an advantage. If you have four cards in hand and they are all land cards that card advantage means nothing, or four cards in hand 3 are land and one is a tormenting voice and you draw two more lands, you are still at the same place. If you draw two cards and one is a removal spell and the other is a protection piece, then you have an advantage.
