An investigative videography of footage from past and recent and I think I've found that elusive Baby-Snatcher - she's actually been lurking around for a while and have been brushed off by me as one ordinary female for weeks !
Poor little monkey baby is definitely NOT hers. He tries so very hard to get away. I've seen mother monkeys keeping a very close watch on their newborns, but this baby looks old enough to be allowed to explore his environment. The monkey napper clutches him so tight that it looks like she's gonna squeeze the daylights out of him. My heart just breaks watching this video. Please keep a watch out for him.
Yes this baby wants to find his OWN mum. You can tell he's not very comfortable being kissed by this lady monkey. Is she lactating I wonder? This mum seems to recognize the baby, but as you say, he's not that excited.
I remember the discussions of the original Baby Napper videos & it was determined she had 2 different babies back then. The 1st baby has a freckle on the left side of the head & the 2nd one did not. You can see the freckle @5:40 & no freckle at @7:03. The sexes were also different. I have no idea who the current baby is but wouldn't it be bigger after a year if it was the same baby? It is fascinating though & your videos are NEVER boring! Thank you for taking your time to tape, edit, and interesting info & upload for us. Very time consuming. Bless you!
Didn't notice before but 15:23 (that face) he starts to walk and she leans down to his face like its some sweet moment and he just books it (try's to). BUT here's where I almost feel bad for her, at 15:45 and the freeze at 15:49 that's the face of sad envy, as she watches another mom with baby and how it "should be". It's so fascinating how much you can see just be watching these incredible animals!
I think you almost captured the real mother accidentally and may not have known it. A little after 2:10 the kidnapper is spooked and flees for some reason. She runs along the wall a short distance, then stops, turns to her left (away from the camera), and guards her prize. The real mother was almost in frame at the far left just after 2:15. My reasoning is that the mother was getting too close, which would give the little one the inclination to bolt. She was running from the mother to prevent this from happening. Now, when the monkey just comes into view on the left, take notice to what she's doing. My thought on this, and I've noticed this before with other mothers who sometimes get their babies taken for extended periods of time, is they, for lack of a better word, self stimulate their own breasts to keep the milk flow from drying up, as they are close enough and might be anticipating a chance to get her baby back. I can't remember if it was this one, or the last one, you said something to the effect of possibly being kidnapped from another troop, which doesn't happen. Snatching from other troops does happen, but it's usually only fertile females who wander too close to the fringes of their own troop's territory. Males from other troops do often steal females from other troops, but females won't wander into another territory and risk getting captured herself just to take a chance on maybe stealing an infant. Then watch carefully around 4:30 the baby is trying like hell to go in a specific direction, and right around then really pours it on and tries grabbing for that one monkey who is agaun just barely in frame. Whoever that is that the baby grabbed her fur, that's the mother. The mother is too low ranking and knows not to approach it try to take back her baby. She simply isn't allowed. She's the one sitting there with big bright pink nipples and no child attached to them. Right there where you asked if this could be the one. Yes, that's the one.
hello, arroz. long time, no hear, yo! haha. haven't had a chance to look at the entire video, but you better believe I will as your videos are a welcome viewing compared to more of the same from so many others (they're all good, especially kiyo's stuff which is phenomenal.) but you bring more to the plate than simple observing: philosophy and insight as to what the videographer is thinking as he or she films. that, my friend, is a welcome sight, don't ever change. anyway, just a few quick observations (remember, I havent viewed it all yet, these are just base observations): in the year later part of the video, the baby not trying to get away from the kidnapper all the time, imo, is easily explained. I know Harry Harlow is the devil in most people's eyes, but what you've shown me here is text book according to his studies. the comfort and safety of the mother trumps all. unless this baby macaque found his original mother, he will always come back to kidnapper. always. even if he gets away. she's the only mother he's known for a year and he's still alive. safety and nurturing in a violent world of monkey. but instinct (and smell) tells him, "this ain't mah moms. I gotta get back to og moms, but what canna bebe macaque do in an alpha male macaques world? meh, screw you guys, I'm going home to kidnapper mama." also, I do believe the first female macaque that approached kidnapper and kidnappee, was indeed the og mother. why the babe didn't know, I couldn't tell you, but the female was sure of it. she was likely much lower caste than kidnapper and nothing she could do but try and get the babe to make a run for the border. otherwise, she wouldn't have thrown her scent up in the face of kidnapper. that tells me that she's saying, "gimme my bebe back please. here's proof it's mine, just smell me." then she hikes a tail. but kidnapper would not look her in the face. in fact, she very adamantly avoided eye contact when the bigger female was trying to get a connection. look at the teats of the older female. she was a mother recently, but it had been a few days to a week since she had been suckled. now, after all that, I don't think it's the same baby. I think the og babe would have starved before kidnapper started to produce milk from suxkling. unless the baby stayed alive on regular foraging and food from visitors, I'm nearly positive. one thing I did notice is that the baby in the last part of the vid looks like he had his tail broken at some point that has long healed. perhaps significant, perhaps not. again, I need to view the whole video and get back to ya. thx again for such great videos, mang!
Fascinating video. I did some research on infant kidnapping in macaques. The babies of low ranking females are the most frequent target of kidnapping, by a female of higher rank. Scientist believe this is one reason low ranking females tend to hold on to their babies more & keep them close. The birth mother will not attempt to take her baby back by force, perhaps for fear it will be injured. Infants unable to return to their mother usually will die. The birth mother eventually gives up & moves on, leaving her baby unable to nurse & under the care of an inexperienced less vigilant surrogate mother.
BABIES THAT ARE KIDNAPPED DIE FROM STARVATION !!!! THEY CANNOT NURSE THE KIDNAPPER HAS NO MILK !!# ONLY IF THE KIDNAPPERS CHILD WAS A RECENT NEW BORN THAT JUST DIED !!!!!
I believe you're right. Less than 15 minutes into the video I was thinking of the queen with the fierce stare and the weird tick. Tick being the weird grimace. It's the deep stare that gave it away for me well before your reveal of who you thought it was. That stare is identifiable
That was the baby's mother that reached her hand out and touched her baby. If you listen you can hear the mother call to the baby then the baby answers her. She also follows them around trying to get her baby beck. She also smelled of her baby. Thats how they tell that it's their baby.
Thanks for that information. I was wondering about how they can tell their babies. This baby's eyes look dark blue. I wonder if that is the appeal to this baby?
I noticed this baby monkey stealer has nipples also, I wondered if she lost her baby monkey, and that why she stole the other mother monkey baby. The baby monkey is so loveable, innocent, adorable and precious. Beautiful photography and very close up amazing clear visibility. Great Story, thank you for sharing your wonderful viedos with us and May God bless you always.
I think it is. But different baby. Which round explain how she is seemingly lactating and able to nurse. I wondered how long could that go when she couldn't nurse. But look at the right ear at 7:17 and 9:10 and 16:26. Tough call. I would hope that the way the baby was constantly trying to get away and call out (see 3:03) that maybe it was reunited with its mom. Or the kidnapper ate it. Most interesting is the way she bobbed her head and rocked. Usually head bobbing is a threatening gesture, but convinced with that rocking, I've seen that before and every time it's been a surrogate mom to usually a monkey but also when a very maternal monkey (like pigtail macs) are holding even a kitten or stuffed animal. In that context they are seeking to say "I know what I'm doing, I know what I'm doing, nothing to see here". But that is only my interpretation. That, however, struck me more than anything else. I enjoyed the video! Thanks for sharing!
@@ArrozMarisco360 you are definitely right, watching your videos are very addicting. Trust me they are never ever boring. I love your videos. The more I watch, the more I learn. You do fantastic work. Thank you
That looks like a relative, notice the facial and ear details. Baby does not cry for Mom. The kidnapper has a severe look in eyes taunting other adults, very creepy 😔
I believe that babies can get Stockholm's Syndrome especially if they have been captive for a few weeks as babies eventually forget their biological mothers and get attached to their kidnapper. It seems odd however that the first baby died because she did not lactate, but with this one she seems to have a lot of milk. So the question is ,is this baby hers or another kidnapped victim. Neurological disorders can cause lactation in humans, but in non-primates..I don't know. She may have had head trauma or born without all her marbles.
Crazy you brought up nerological disorders. Ike's thinking that deep stare and her tick was something with the brain. I know she is not a dog but it kept reminding me of my dog who has epilepsy. Her stare and tick I mean. I was just afraid to bring it up.
That is not her baby. I guess the baby is drink because she is hungry and nibbling at the ear is a form of scaring or control. She is suckling but I don't think she has any milk.
She just a mean ole kidnapper,,baby has bit marks all over his face,at 15:22 you can see them good,,at some point she's been biting this baby's face poor lil guy 😔 thanks for sharing a great video with us,,you do amazing work ✨👍🏻✨👍🏻✨
I often have wondered what happened to the kidnapped baby last year. I assume it eventually died since the kidnapper wouldn't let him get away and always carried him facing out so he couldn't feed even if she did have milk (which she pretty clearly didn't). It didn't seem in your videos of that situation that there was much of a chance that the baby would get away. His struggles took energy and with no ability to feed, he would have weakened quickly. Guess we'll never know for sure. In this video, it certainly seems that the current baby is comfortable with the situation, and must be getting milk given her age and apparently good health. Keep the fascinating videos coming - they are excellently done and very entertaining!
she has catteracks and she xant see what she is typing unless she uses bigger letters.... that poor little guy is still crying for mom!! I wonder if mom is even in the area
Tress Lamb I KNOW YOUR COMMENT WAS 6+ MONTHS AGO. I AM A LATE BLOOMER I GUESS, LOL. I READ ABOUT THAT TOO, IN HUMANS. IF A WOMAN USES AN ELECTRIC BREAST PUMP OR IF HER CHILD HAD STOPPED NURSING & MOM DECIDED TO RESUME NURSING, MILK PRODUCTION WILL EITHER START OR RESTART. HOW AWFUL THOUGH FOR THE BABY.
Research says chewing and sucking on the baby's ear is suppose to stimulant the baby, soothing and cuddling,,she's wanting the baby to not fight to get back to mom,,I hope the baby gets back to mom,,it's heart breaking to know the kidnapper starve them,,that is one painful way to die 😔
In baty and friends part 1 I noticed the prime female looks a great deal like your baby snatcher right down to her ticks and the way she plays with her tongue. In the center of her forhead she has a patch of golden hair.
Arroz what ever happened to this mum an baby, I’m really fascinated by this. Since this was made in 2016, the baby has to be an a adult by now and did the Mom ever kidnap another baby. 😪
I think.. The baby last year was it's sibling or relative that she babysat, and was close to... . The bio Mom died, or something happened to her. This monkey was young and had not conceived yet. This is her baby, here now... she doesn't look very old still. All babies try to pull away from their Moms to go play for a second now and then. This baby pulling away didn't seem significant to me. I just wonder what happened to the one last year? Did it starve? Is it still around? When/If you see this one. Check around to see if there are any 2 year olds hanging around. Very interesting indeed. Unfortunately we will never know for sure.
What is the monkey snatcher doing around 17:05 moving her upper body up and down and sticking her tongue out? I've seen others do this and I'm wondering what it means if anything.
When I've seen them do this it has been because they were loving on another animal and didn't want to let them go. Not sure but it seems that is the case.
That video was anything but boring. As you said, fascinating stuff. I thoroughly enjoyed that video. But then, I've enjoyed all of your videos and they are informative too. Thank you. AM xx
I saw a video where a high range king female kidnapped a baby. When she was done she through the baby out of the high part of after and it perished. The mother retrieved her dead baby.
I just noticed her right ear kinda of a nick in it and the baby monkey at 25:06 one ear is flat against its head on the left and I wonder if this is the same baby
I think your right on point here......that looks very much like the other monkey and the facial twitches or what ever are unusual enough that it leads me to agree that's the same one........nice job.......as usual. Thank you
@Arroz Marisco. Thank you so much for your reply. (Although I've been following you for nearly a year, I just got my account sorted out to be able to comment. Still learning the ropes. LOL) 😘
Would you be interested in putting together a video from some of the larger advocates? It would be along the lines of a PSA. We are in the biggest battle we have ever had against the vos at Angkor Wat.
Seems to me you need it more than I you are the one responding to a question that had nothing to do with you and was none of your business and nobody asked for your opinion
I knoe it's hard to see... but at 23:13 You can see the snatched face while she is looking head on into camera.. you can only see it when she is looking straight at you... but the left side ear has a small indent where as the right ear is perfevtly rounded ... i tried to find the same indent on her ears in the newer footage but could not get a shot to see her looking head on into the camera... can some one else please pause at the time of 23:13 and look closely at the left ear (our left) ... if you can find a part where she is lookong head on into the camera in the new footage... we can find out if of its her just by the shape of the left ear opposed to her right one!!
I think my curiosity just gets the best of me!!! hahaha at least we know it's the same monkey and we dont have two baby snatchers in the troop!!!! hahahah
I'm really late to this conversation but I wanted to give my own opinions. Which are YOUR opinions. Lol. I 100% she with your theories. Especially 5 & 6. She is definitely 'psychotic' as you mentioned; something is wrong with her. I've seen teenaged macaques do the strange movements she does but hers seem 'off,' with the tongue business and all that. She's definitely been suckling a baby because her nipples are quite used looking, and she does have some puffiness to her breasts, as you said. It's so hard to figure her out but you did a great job trying! I love your videos. It's so refreshing to watch these monkeys in their own habitat, not being harassed or set up like the creep VOs in Cam and Viet. Thanks for sharing with us. I wish you had a portfolio of your photos somewhere! I saw some in one of your investigative vids and they were amazing. Best, Heather.
Psycho eyes it knows it's doing wrong. The little bites and nibbles are positive reinforcement to go along with that bite gash on the side of its head.
Ah my girl aggy, the once kidnapper. She wouldn't hurt the babies, she loved them, nibbling their ears to calm them down, shes a great mum now and I love granny too. Miss grandee though:( love aggy and that tongue)
Arroz, is that a young Aggy? I remember this... I remember when she was just referred to as "the baby snatcher" and then she had a baby of her own and I remember you referring to her as the baby snatcher and her girl. The female's tongue sticking out also rings a bell.
The ear thing isnt anything like that. When my babies were little and close to my face, i would do the same thing, its endearment not punishment, the baby didnt yell and she is super gentle.
25:05 My guess is that previous year she didn’t conceive but she’s high ranking and stole someone else’s kid. She can’t feed the kid and wouldn’t let it loose and it eventually died. This year she did get pregnant and had this baby. She in overprotective because she can’t figure out why baby last year died. She can feed this baby but follows Bossy and wants to keep the kid close. The baby clearly wants to explore but mom won’t let her. I would be interested if further info has come out to confirm or refute my guess.
You know what I think personally she seems to be doing, I think this young female monkey has lost her baby most likely recently and that's why she took this baby and is being so ....... clingy and touchy feely. The second monkey I think that is it's mother and the one grooming was an unwanted presents. Now looking back at both monkeys I'm pretty sure it is the same monkey and probably the first baby was its baby also or like I said it had lost one and was trying to replace it.
The mother holding the child isn't lactating..the baby should be suckling by now. It looks hungry and her breast aren't protruding... Are we sure this is his mom? I've seen photo age of females stealing babies because the mothers have died or it was just kidnapped and the babies starved unless a mother with children adopts it. That monkey babe should nurse for a long time!! This is one of the worst species I know.
This baby is nursing. You’re just seeing 10 minutes in time when he’s not with his mum. Afghan doesn’t keep him forever. It was pure coincidence that he he found him with her a second time.😎
OK, so the first kidnapping was almost a year ago. so the baby is too young but it does look like the baby Snatcher. oh boy! what is going on here?! did she do it again and just take another baby? I really do think this is the baby Snatcher!
I think it's the other way around as the one that comes up at the end looks more like the kidnapper, especially if you see her feet grabbing at the baby , the grimace is the mothers dislike of having to even let other one get close. She may have had that baby confused as prisoners who become institutionalized or this mother is a different mother that knows this female is a kidnapper which by the way, the kidnapper has no visible nipples for nursing. Wouldn't the baby be much bigger than this after a year and more independent?
@Arroz Marisco. didn’t you do a more recent show on saggy snatching this baby in 2015? Did you ID the red-faced mum followin & keepin her pumps primed? Just curious if she’s still in Bossy’s. Also, boy am I glad you’re now so more educated in macaques. I’s screamin at your commentary.😎
IF ANYONE NOTES EVERY WHERE THE SNATCHER GOES THAT FEMALE IS RIGHT THERE TRYING TO STAY BY THE SIDE OF THE BABY AND THE SNATCHER TRY'S AND NOT MAKE EYE CONTACT WITH HER . I DO BELIEVE THAT IS THE MOTHER . BUT NOW WITH THIS NEW BABY SHE IS FEEDING IT SO THIS ONE IS HER'S . IF THIS IS'NT BABY SNATCHER IT MUST BE HER TWIN . BUT I ALSO BELIEVE THIS IS THE BABY SNATCHER WITH HER OWN KID THIS TIME .SHE DON'T BIT IT OR HOLD IT AS HARD AS SHE DID THE OTHER ONE .BUT I BELIEVE YOUR RIGHT SIR . THANK'S FOR SHARING THESE VIDEO WITH ALL OF US . I TRULY ENJOY THEM VERY MUCH . THANK YOU .
She is nibbling/biting to keep baby under control. This female looks a lot like Spanky....could it be a sibling? She is lactating, not just being the baby’s dummy.
she sticks her tongue out like the one did in the early part of the video,I wonder if she is higher rank of the mother and that is why she was able to take the baby but was she able nurse her in the earlier video?
i.imgur.com/fzAV564.jpg Here is a comparison, I don't think they are the same. I don't know how often their hair patterns change but you can see the hair color pattern on the top of their heads are different.
Ok. My thoughts are. This baby is Lubby’s baby. Or at least hers during the segment when you found them instead of your lens cap. And what is he signing? He is a cutie!
This female does make the odd mouth movements. The licking & nibbling reminded me an awful lot of juvenile lions when they catch their first few meals on their own. Like they don't know what to do & need mom to unwrap it. I've also seen lip & tongue movements in senior dementia, Alzheimer's or various other mental illness patients. Hmm, was she trying to eat him or remember him...lol.Fascinating video series Arroz Marisco.
The mom is sitting right in front of him. She cant feed him, what she do keep him till he dies. I hope the mother is persistent and gets her baby back . He looks like he's in shock .
Arroz Marisco, have you solved this mystery? Although the kidnapper doesn't have any distinct ear markings, you might compare images of her ears to determine placement on the head, where earlobe attaches, tus of ear hair etc. Also the monkey in the earlier part of the video would have pursed lips with the tip of the tongue showing. Later in the video, she's doing a lot of lip licking which could be a habit that became more pronounced over time.
17:04 She keeps making akward movements and tics. It would have been interedting to see what she was like as a baby, she is certainly a bit off as an adult.
