Where Should We Be Using Dual Function Breakers?

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When installing circuitry into a residence, it is important to refer to the NEC to determine exactly what types of protection are needed. GFCI protection and AFCI protection being among them. But what about dual function breakers? In the latest episode of Electrician U, Dustin brings to light what a dual function breaker is and where would be the places to install them.
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Let’s discuss the difference between the standard GFCI breaker, a standard AFCI breaker, Combination breakers, and Dual Function breakers so there isn’t confusion with terminology. A standard GFCI breaker senses the difference between what’s going OUT to the load and what’s coming BACK and interrupts the circuit if there is a big enough difference to cause damage to personnel. There are 2 kinds of standard AFCI breakers. A Series AFCI breaker will sense if there is a break in a single wire (where there would be an arc from one side of that wire to the next) and will interrupt the circuit. A parallel AFCI breaker senses a small amount of arcing between a neutral and a hot of the same circuit (not enough to be a dead short but smaller arcing) and interrupts the circuit. A combination breaker has the capability to protect from BOTH Series AND Parallel arcs. And lastly, a Dual Function breaker will protect against Ground Faults AND Arc Faults.
The installation of a GFCI breaker isn’t specifically lined out in the NEC, just that GFCI protection for certain devices is required. Remember, GFCI protection is generally limited to the device, whereas AFCI protection is required for the entire circuit. Considering both the need to keep cost down AND convenience for the end user, a single GFCI breaker could take the place of several GFCI receptacles within a circuit or negate the need to run a large distance to protect the next receptacle in line of the GFCI device protecting it. In other words, a GFCI breaker will protect ALL the receptacles on the circuit. An AFCI breaker will do exactly the same thing, just from an Arc Fault standpoint in lieu of a Ground Fault.
Article 210.8(A) of the NEC covers GFCI requirements in a residential installation while article 210.12(B) covers AFCI requirements of the NEC. If you were to look in the code, you would see that several of those areas are required to have BOTH GFCI and AFCI protection. Enter the Dual Function Breaker. Take a residential kitchen for example. You could put a dual function breaker in several of the circuits in the kitchen, thus negating the need for an AFCI breaker AND a GFCI device.
Another reason to use a dual function breaker in lieu of both a breaker for AFCI protection and a GFCI device for protection is that the breakers tend to be a bit more robust and will fail less frequently than a device. Especially the WR GFCI breakers installed outside as they are constantly exposed to the elements. This, overtime, could amount to significant savings in replacement. As always, refer to the current version of the NEC to find the protection requirements for your situation as codes are reworked every 3 years. Also, it may be work answering customers questions as to why you would install a Dual Function breaker or individual devices. It certainly pays to help them understand why we install things the way we do.

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28 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 276

@JosephMilici 4 месяца назад

Was updating receptacles to TR in my family room and the breaker tripped out on AFCI as soon as I turned it back on. I went back and checked my wiring to find that when I had pulled the tab on the receptacle to enable half to be switch-controlled, it left a small burr that was arcing. The AFCI may have saved my bacon.

@josheh4 Год назад

These videos have been coming out just in time! Was looking to have an electrical panel replaced, and a few of your recent videos have helped answer a number of questions I had. I'm going to leave it up to an electrician to do the physical replacing, but now I have a better understanding of what I'm looking for in a replacement panel.

@Paul-jp8zz Год назад

I just did a big complete kitchen remodel and due to upcoming code changes and frankly, supply chain, I used dual function on every circuit - all appliances (except the 240v 50amp oven) lights and SABC's... Inspector said "yup, that's pretty much how ya gotta do it these days"... $$$$$$

@Squat5000 Год назад

Yep. Amazing what happens when the people that make billions selling a $5 breaker for $50 get to write the mandate. I need to invent something I can force everyone in the country to install by code LMAO

@mygoogleemail2063 7 месяцев назад

Guy who taught me told me something that still rings true after 20yrs. "Its a product-driven code"

@Sembazuru Год назад

Another advantage to putting the protection in the panel vs. as a device down the line (for example a GFCI outlet) is faults on the home run (like someone drilling through or putting a nail through the home run wire) should cause a trip instead of a death. A minor disadvantage is if using a GFCI outlet tester, one has to return to where the panel is after checking each outlet instead of returning to the (hopefully nearby) GFCI outlet.

@morlamweb Год назад

In my area, for Siemens breakers specifically (as I have a Siemens panel), the CAFCI / GFCI / dual-function breakers are the same price, $50 per breaker. I decided to go with dual-function breakers for most of the circuits because there's little benefit to going with CAFCI-only breakers. When I moved in to my house, there was only one GFCI breaker in the box, for the bathrooms, not even the kitchen or basement outlets. I've upgraded most of the breakers to dual-function slowly over time due to the cost.

@thebnbaldwin Месяц назад

Thank you! Once again a great video. I am a handyman with decades of electrical experience in the Telecom industry. My customer's house was built in 2019 with EATON service panels (main and a sub panel for Casita and pool equips., etc.), and has 13 defective of 21 DF breakers (won't reset, tripping when no one is there for months at a time, they are AZ snowbirds from IA) or, the test button buzzes but won't trip the breaker. 4 of 9 GF breakers are defective. I made a chart to see what I can move around, replace a DF with a AF or GF, or even a standard breaker to save him some money. This video will help me do it but, in the end, I think it would have been less effort to just replace them all with what's there already. But then I would not have learn as much as I have about these damned things! P.S. Like the really old AFCIs, I think theses DFs are going through revisions to mitigate failures of this magnitude. Fingers crossed.

@jaymazza69 Год назад

I believe I saw that the 2023 code was going to require EVERYTHING in a kitchen, basement and the exterior of a dwelling to be GFCI protected. The only exception would be where a manufacturer specifically states GFCI protection not be used due to incompatibility issues. But that will only be a temporary exemption as the manufacturers will need to address that issue.

@jdcpe17 Год назад

exactly. EVERYWHERE... this guy is referencing the 2013 code for some reason... its changed a lot in the past 10 years.

@jaymazza69 Год назад

Of course it all depends upon which version of the NEC your particular location has adopted. Some are still several versions behind, which can be confusing sometimes, even for the inspectors.

@Jerry-rd9my Год назад

It's true. (A)(6) in 210.8 now just says "kitchens" meaning all 125- through 250- volt receptacles in the kitchen require GFCI. However, there is a list of locations at the end of 210.8 (in 2023 NEC) where receptacles everywhere are exempt, such as ANY type of security system(fire, burglar, high water, carbon, etc.,) that is permanently connected to a receptacle. That applies in any room in 2023 NEC, not just basements anymore. Also, ice melting equipment at gutters/eaves is still exempt. There are two more I think, I would have to look.

@sparky178 Год назад

Just wired a basement, the wet bar area has a decorative stone wall. Had to put in 2 receptacles to meet code. I used a dual function breaker so I didn’t have a GFCI and duplex receptacle in the decorative wall. Now will have 2 matching duplex, just an aesthetic thing!

@ivoted7199 15 дней назад

I'm a GC & learned useful techniques here. Thanks a lot. ;)

@jimmiegill3981 Год назад

I put duel function on everything ! They area a better breaker than the standard afci

@harveypaxton1232 3 месяца назад

I would have to disagree on that. As a service electrician, I have to replace more AFCI breakers than ever. It makes me a lot of money, but it's bad for the customer.

@bombitvcajita 3 месяца назад

5:28 finally goes to the book after lotta talking

@stephendinan5622 Год назад

I always just use dual function breakers it makes my life easier for wiring panels and for the purchase of breakers

@camdendexter Год назад

Is there a reason to *not* do combo AFCI/GFCI breakers for *every* breaker in your home?

@Hatim.13 Год назад

Cost, a panel change used to cost around 300$ between the panel and breakers, now it will cost around 1000$ in gfci/afci/dual breakers, a regular breaker may cost 6$ to 15$, a dual function breaker may cost between 60$ and 80$...

@alonsoserrano199 Год назад

But if you don’t mind spending the extra money wouldn’t it be better to do it?

@Jerry-rd9my Год назад

Nuisance tripping is reason enough not to do it. Perfectly good circuits may occasionally (or immediately) trip just because a bare equipment grounding conductor in an outlet box is touching the termination screw for the grounded (white) wire on a receptacle, for example.

@pitsticm 27 дней назад

When I had my panel redone I put dual-function on everything. There are a few nuisance trips I've had, but more often than not when a trip happens it's indicative of a problem, and doing this exercise has shown me places in the house that were not wired correctly. For instance, my radon fan failed due to a GFCI fault, and had it not been on a GFCI breaker, I would probably have never known the system had failed. I also highly recommend going through your entire panel and labeling it very very clearly. I have a spreadsheet that I print out and attach to the inside door with magnets, and whenever I learn more or a change happens, I change the spreadsheet and print out another copy. The exercise of labeling, down to every receptacle and switch, which breaker everything was on (including the attic and outdoor motion lights) helped me find issues, too.

@j.j.riverhill2831 26 дней назад

Future inspector lmao

@calmeilles Год назад

I have not been really convinced by arc fault detection because all the "evidence" has come from the makers of… AFCIs. However they're in code now (or very close to being mandatory in Europe) so we fit them. Basically I'd fit dual function GFCI-AFCI breakers _everywhere_ unless there is a positive reason not to.

@Krankie_V Год назад

They work, at least sometimes. Installed a whole panel full of them at a friend's residence and two of them kept tripping. We found the wires had been chewed on by some animals. We replaced the damaged wiring and a year later there's not been another issue.

@nateo200 Год назад

Nuasance trips are a risk especially with certain devices like treadmills which for whatever reason can trip them.

@CopeBUILT Год назад

@@nateo200 and this is why i HATE arc fault. I know home builders who put them to pass inspection and get the COI... and then they took them all out, and put normal breakers in to avoid the call backs... and took those breakers down to the next build to use them again on the next house... GFI are cool... but the Arc Fault constantly nuisance trip.

@ronstewart5945 Год назад

⁠@@CopeBUILTsounds like those home builders are risking a manslaughter charge.

@curtisbme 8 месяцев назад

@@CopeBUILT Having a crappy old device with a motor that is tripping it is the crappy old devices issue, not the breaker.

@BlackfyreApprenticeX Год назад

Would love to have a video about electrical in the Attic. What kind of box? Where can I mount it? Does romex just get stapled to the wood or do I drill holes through it? Etc...

@fwgmills Год назад

A great example of arc-fault nuisance tripping is I have a humidifier that cycles on and off, but the bi-metalic strip that cycles the unit has 120v on it and it sparks and trips the breaker, and sometimes it will trip multiple breakers since all my arc-fault breakers are on the same phase. I have to just manually turn the humidifier on and off and keep the "humidity" dial at max so it won't pop the stupid breakers.

@chito80246 Год назад

Good call. I was going to do what you described with 5 humidifier. Thank God I did not. I was going to have the same problem.

@Squat5000 Год назад

And the best part, the only solution you're going to hear is that you just need to buy new equipment LMAO. I can't tell you how many homes I've wired over the years. But I can tell you a lot of them change them back to standard breakers after I leave lol

@jfbeam Год назад

@@Squat5000 THAT is the correct answer. (after inspections are over, remove the damned things.)

@TwilightxKnight13 Год назад

Good to know. We upgraded our service and replaced the entire electrical system with dual function protection. We have not installed the two dehumidifiers in the basement yet. One is brand new, the other an older model. Guess I'll run dedicated circuits to them so if there is nuisance tripping, I can just replace the breaker. Thanks for the info

@chadrowland5234 Год назад

One of my favorite applications for combination AF/GF breakers is retractable hoses for central vacuums. Retractable hoses are wired to power 24/7 and it would not have a cord or plug. So, it will not be plugged into a receptacle. However, the code still requires AF protection for those. And, though it is hardwired, the hose still has a receptacle at the end. For central vacuum accessories that are hardwired, I just use a combination AF/GF breaker and call it a day. However, I go a step further. I put a wall switch for hardwired vacuum cleaner accessories. You shut it off when you are finished so, there is only power in the hose during cleaning.

@tebogan Год назад

As usual, great usable information

@G.I.JeffsWorkbench 5 месяцев назад

Great video (as usual). Please stop at GFCI protection if you have a metal or wood working shop AND have tools with BRUSH motors. AFCI protection will cause nuisance tripping in this instance. I regularly use a 70-year-old Radial Arm Saw (RAS) in my production woodworking shop that is technically part of my dwelling (converted garage). The RAS, and all of my older routers (for example) still have motors with brushes. Most (all?) new tools are “brushless,” so this will allow AFCI protection. It’s cost-prohibitive to replace all tools with brush-containing motors with new brushless ones. Thanks NEC for allowing this exception.

@jimmyfox231 8 месяцев назад

This is super detailed and a great educational tool for anyone looking to learn about arc fault/ground fault breakers. Has anyone dealt with Siemens afci/gfci dual breaker tripping? I have them in my kitchen and laundry rooms both of which trip for a blender and heat pump washer/dryer. I’m replacing both with an arc breaker and gfci blank in my crawlspace for the kitchen because they combined two receptacles there that need gfci protection. Anyone with info on those breakers would be great. I’ve tried replacing and they consistently trip no matter what but don’t trip on regular arcs or other gfci’s.

@mikieboyblue Год назад

The challenge I have is that electric ranges and dryers need gfci as well going forward. I have a very hard time finding those breakers and they seem to cost nearly $100.

@morlamweb Год назад

Yep, that's what I found for pricing on the 240V DF breakers. fortunately, existing installs in homes are grandfathered in under the old rules. It's only new builds, or extensive renovations of old homes, which will need to meet the new requirements (assuming that the state as adopted the latest NEC for their building codes).

@HopeOverComesFear369 Год назад

wanted to share with you hoping you read this comment I went to school to become an electrian in chicago il at coyne witch just recently close I was there when the 911 took place graduated but never really got involved with the field afterward because I also tried to get in the union but wasn't able to get a high enough score so I just gave up but also tried to get back involved in the trade because I found my working in warehouses and kept getting the life drain out of me and I couldn't take it anymore because I kept accepting low pay when I know I have much more value but to get to the point ive been trying to reteach myself and its been hard but not to say ive don't remember what I was taught but I've been doing my best to restudying the trade because I would like to do residential work but am not to firmailar what some things I was taught and the course was like a rush course as well but there were some areas I lacked in like conduit venting and wiring a whole house and that s why I wanted to get into the union plus I was younger that I was now but the reason am sharing all this is because you have me teaching new things every time I noticed something you place on the RU-vid channel and am thankful for your teaching on RU-vid and I wanted to express that to you as gratitude and if you could kept up the awesome job your doing because it help me and others thanks God bless you !!!!

@matthewmontgomery1015 Год назад

Dustin, Thanks for the video! Seems I should be good to replace all circuits with DF breakers once the FPE panel gets replaced. I don't have a welder at this time but appreciate the clarification in having atleast one dedicated circuit for it in the garage. Also much easier to monthly test a set of breakers rather than the outlets throughout the home! 12/2 throughout but the panel seems to have MWBC since the breakers share a space? Didn't think you could do that with 12/2?

@Silky_boi Год назад

I don’t think Multi branch circuits don’t work with AFCI. You can use a dual pole gfci breaker with multi branch. I did for my washer dryer and my dishwasher and disposal

@matthewmontgomery1015 Год назад

@@Silky_boi pardon my ignorance, I'm still learning. But the issue I'm foreseeing is that I have 12/2 Homeruns throughout, which I believe to be MWBC given the FPE load center runs 12space NA feeding 8space NC sub. 2spaces NC are open, 1space is a Full, the other 5spaces are minis(2ea). I don't see how they could run the minis without shared neutral on a single space? (It's highly probable there are larger gauge cables for the 60A 2P and 50A 2P but I have not seen them yet. Everything I've found in the attic is white romex stamped 12/2.)

@SethEssington Год назад

I’d upgrade all my circuits to dual function breakers but they are expensive. I did upgrade my kitchen to a dual function breaker because I remodeled it. Now I’ve got a light switch at the kitchen entrance instead of the kitchen countertop and 3 prong receptacles(With new Romex) for my appliances.

@aurvaroy6670 Год назад

If your house was built before all these code changes, then you don’t need to upgrade every single circuit to AF or DF. You only need to have AF or DF in any new circuit or modified circuit. So since you remodeled your kitchen, you did the right thing by upgrading its breaker to DF.

@CA-lk6fd Год назад

Basically on new residential, we put dual function on everything but the garage plugs, bathroom plugs, and gas furnaces. We still install the standard breakers and GFCI plugs on these because that gives a few circuits that aren’t arc fault mainly for construction. The arc fault part of these DF hate compressors and saws. We are still running off of 2017 code here in Kentucky, supposedly they’re going to adopt both 20’ and 23’ updates sometime in 23’. We started using DF for simplicity, and reliability, DF breakers don’t seem to have the nuisance tripping like AF. We’ve been using Square D, but we’ve had to switch to Siemens lately because of availability of Square D. I hate that because it’s a really good product IMO, and we didn’t have trouble with them. I have anxiety about this new update because I don’t know how HVAC equipment is gonna do on GF. I thought the same with refrigerators but so far only Samsung had the issues, but they must’ve corrected that.

@JosephMilici 4 месяца назад

Another advantage of GFCI in panel is the ability to take a circuit tester and plug it into a receptacle and press the test button. Then you know you can work on that circuit and the correct breaker is off. Of course, verify, but this can save some back-and-forth to the panel.

@EvendimataE Год назад

if you will put afci breaker and add selected gfci receptacles, then that will be more exppensive than dual.....i rewired my house. i just put dual on all

@charlieperez6844 Год назад

Best channel EVER! Thank you

@andrewt9204 Год назад

Inverter-based welders which most seem to be nowadays have the power supply and welding circuit separated so it won't trip AFCI. Well, assuming that their noise suppression circuit is up to snuff.

@johndomin 8 месяцев назад

Can you do a video on what locations or receptacles does NOT NEED afci or gfci protection

@IntelestateNetwork Год назад

Great explanation Dustin, keep up the good work. Love your videos. When are you moving to CO?

@jeffreyrossman1083 Год назад

Taking it a step further, dual function “receptacles” have saved my bacon with the limited space in my panel (old, unique size, limited circuit capacity). As the first receptacle in my SABCs and dedicated circuits, these meet code and allow me to use dumb double stuff overcurrent-only breakers in my panel, which gives me twice as many circuits!

@matt24fc Год назад

There is also a maximum amount of circuits you can install in a panel. Not just if you can fit them on the bus. Should be on the label inside the panel. I see that often. Here in Florida, you can't pass an inspection with any tandem breakers in a panel, rather you have to pass inspection and then go back and put any tandems in. Can't tell you how many times Ive opened a panel and found 10 or more tandem breakers, and now we have to add a much larger panel.

@hansmortensen5668 2 месяца назад

Question for the smart old (or young) Folks in the room. What am I supposed to do with an older home that still has cloth 2 conductor wiring. I added a dual function breaker to my kid's room with the hope that it could save him from a shock. Also, will be adding the new tamper resistant plugs. Is this adequate, or am I just totally off base? Also, can I test it at the outlet somehow? This is in an apartment home, so I can't really redo the wiring but got permission to make these changes at my own expense.

@bassman87 Год назад

Where I see this getting tricky is in multiuse areas such as a garage that has washer and dryers in them. (super common where I live) technically you don't need to arc fault protect garages, but you do laundry areas, so do you go dual function on the garage, or just the circuits the washer and dryer are on, ect. I guess this is more a question for my AHJ, but curious what others experiences have been.

@alphasaiyan5760 Год назад

Just gfci protection in the garage. It’s by location not equipment.

@bassman87 Год назад

@@alphasaiyan5760 I can't say I 100% agree sense under article 100 a Laundry Area is defined as: Laundry Area. An area containing or designed to contain a laundry tray, clothes washer, or clothes dryer. I can see the argument by an AHJ that the equipment in the room is what defines the room. not the other way around.

@alphasaiyan5760 Год назад

@@bassman87 yes sir but it can be argued that a garage isn’t designed to be a laundry room and a laundry room is not designed to be a garage. I mean sometimes people have a washer and dryer in their garage but it doesn’t make it a laundry room. Some people could park a car in their laundry room but it doesn’t make it a garage.

@jfbeam Год назад

@@alphasaiyan5760 By the NEC's definitions, if you put a washer and/or dryer there, it's a laundry area - period. I've seen washer/dryer combos sitting on porches, in bathrooms, in closets, ... (mine are technically in a closet in a bathroom :-) 'tho I would agree, having a duct, hot and cold water taps, and a drain in that "closet" makes it a "Laundry Area") My grandmother's house had the washer in the bathroom, with the drain into the bathtub! (she didn't have a dryer)

@TwilightxKnight13 Год назад

and a "room" does not have to be defined by the walls. If you have an area of your garage that contains the washer/dryer, then you essentially have a dual-function space. The part dedicated to the laundry should be treated as such and likewise with the rest of the garage. You do not get to ignore whole sections of the code because you eliminate some walls. What about a truly open design house? What if all the living space is open and the only "room" separated by walls is the restroom? Does the entire house have to comply with the requirements of the kitchen? No, of course not. The same would apply to your garage, but of course the inspector (AHJ) has the final say. The code is merely a guideline. The inspector chooses what to enforce.

@nicd5439 Месяц назад

Can dual breakers be in the main box where they share ground neutral buses?

@Ash-pz6oy 9 месяцев назад

I just got a new fridge installed & it’s tripping the breaker multiple times a day, the old fridge was just fine. the current breaker running it is a CAFCI arc fault breaker and plugged into a regular outlet. Would swapping the breaker to a dual function breaker correct the issue?

@dwaynehast271 Год назад

Ive been replacing my 15/20/30 amp circuits with DF breakers, but what is everyone doing for the 50 amp ones? I interpreted My inspectors suggestion that I needed AF and GF for my dryer/ stove and HVAC unit as well. I can't find a 50amp AF anywhere.

@tomtom7955 Год назад

in NE FL dedicated equipment circuits like refrigerators washers, dryers, ranges ect are still put on regular breakers , Probably because what a nightmare rollout arc fault breakers had, so many issues with those damn things in the beginning.

@ralphvickers2339 3 месяца назад

does the home run have to be afci protected , or can you use a afci receptacle as first point of the circuit

@steveloux4709 Год назад

I think your example of the GFCI receptacle behind the refrigerator fails to comply with 210.8, in that this location does not meet the definition of "readily accessible". So it really shouldn't be a matter of either locating it behind the refer or perhaps installing a DF breaker. Either the GFCI receptacle is not buried behind the refrigerator, or a DF breaker may be considered.

@qwiickk 8 месяцев назад

Good rationale with which to work!

@L3Dhelpguide Год назад

Theres been a drift toward afci main panel for residential service panels. Penny for your thoughts on if turning on a vacumm or installing a bad light bulb should be able to remove power from the entire system.

@owenmercer5443 Год назад

If they want us to arc fault everything, then they need to cut the corporate greed bullshit and lower the prices on those pieces of plastic

@marka8486 11 месяцев назад

excellent instructor

@luismatias2910 Год назад

Good explanation Mann!!! Thanks

@jenko701 Год назад

A lot of food has been lost over gfci protection and I guess anything that can nuisance trip . In my own home I make sure my freezer does not have either. Yes I know , but my food is still frozen when I get home .

@jb4241 3 месяца назад

Can one put 110V outlet on a country that uses 220V as there standard ?

@daktusdurggery5505 4 месяца назад

So when do we use the ones that have the pigtail vs the ones that are plug on neutral without the pigtail? I have 2 20amp Dual functionCAFCI & GFCI, one for each side of my kitchen and I’m told fridge should not be on my of these protections due to minor faults being an annoyance trip and food spillage? Am I understanding this correctly?

@niktak1114 4 месяца назад

You can only use the plug on neutral ones if your panel has the plug on neutral busbars

@TheAkjody Год назад

So now I have a thought... If I replace my old breakers, can I just can use only dual function arc-fault/GFCI circuit breakers and be done with it? Its my money I can waste it if I want to and provide the best of both worlds. And with Lowes and the 10% military discount. If I can replace them in a 1 for 1 is I am allowed to do that and not rewire the house. Seems like I can and still be in code? Seems like the cabling is all the same the difference is in the breaker if I finally understand it.

@ameador01 Год назад

So to clarify, a dual function GFCI AFCI breaker is not the same as a combination GAFCI breaker? Also, do you have any videos that discuss troubleshooting an AFCI breaker? I just ran a circuit with (I''ll have to check) and combination breaker for a dishwasher. But, it is tripping even with the dishwasher is not plugged in. The conductors and ground are all testing as not having continuity with the hot wire. So not sure what it is picking up on. But, if I have the wires disconnected from the breaker, and only it's pigtail connected to the neutral bus, it does not trip. So it seems it doesn't like something about the wire run. But, I have also been told it may be the currently main breaker panel where this is connected, as it has the ground wires and neutral wires all intermixed over the 2 busses. The 2 busses are also jumped, so I didn't see why this would matter. Also had someone tell me to remove the bus jumper and connected all the grounds to the bus with the earth ground connected to it (going out to the ground rods), and to move the neutrals to the one without the earth ground. But also had others say that the 2 buses should be done where all the grounds are connected to the one with the earth ground, neutrals on the other, and still leave them jumped - that somehow this not being done could cause false trips of the AFCI break - but that doing this later patter would stop those false trips. The circuit was run with a 20amp breaker using MC cable to a metal outlet box with 12/2 wire. But not happy!

@joshbrown284 Год назад

Can arc fault protectors reduce the risk of fire? For instance in a home that has older wiring is it worth investing the money in say dual functions breakers on particular circuits?

@DIYWithTheRichardsons Год назад

What about using them on a house with a two wire system that doesn’t have a ground?

@jandgusletras9998 Год назад

You are real master thank for ilustración

@TY-ob7fz Год назад

If… you use a gfci breaker (!!) on your refrigerator circuit might lose everything in fridge due to nuisance trip if not caught in time.

@MaMa-qh4dy Год назад

Correct. Happened to me when I was on vacation. Lost entire food. I changed receptacle to standard. Never again gfci on fridge!!!!

@JerseyTom Год назад

that's no different than if it is on a gfci receptacle.

@TY-ob7fz Год назад

@@JerseyTom that’s true, but on a breaker is more of a tendency to branch out to other circuits that might cause circuit to trip. Though “load” can be used on gfci receptacle behind fridge, think electricians would be wary to branch out. Also proper grounding wouldn’t require permanently mounted appliances as refrigerators, dishwashers, above oven microwave and ovens to need gfci, imo. I stand to be corrected though.

@billk8780 Год назад

See my comment on 12/12. Methinks the AFCI on refrigerators might be wonky.

@joeshmoe8952 Год назад

Depends on the fridge, my personal frige is connected to a GFCI because the receptacle is close to the sink, It's been like that for years. I replaced my aunt's frige receptacle with a GFCI and it was a learning experience. It kept tripping and the owners manual said it in plain English "Do Not Use GFCI" connected a regular 20A receptacle and life was good.

@TheMurfed 9 месяцев назад

Well what about attics? there is alot of places my company will use standard single pole breakers.

@HongBoFerver 10 месяцев назад

Do you mean you are using the 2023 code book not the 2013 code book?

@M_Rasmussen58 7 месяцев назад

I am wondering the same!

@JeremyWashington1489 Год назад

It can be frustrating. I’m a second year apprentice in Montana and MT doesn’t require the kitchen to be arc-fault protected. So after pulling dozens and dozens of units, it wasn’t until my second year that I realized the code require kitchens to be arc-fault protected. Now whenever I have a test on the Code, I have to fight the instinct to put that kitchens aren’t included in AFCI locations. I know now that the Code says it, but it’s still hard to rethink something I’ve done hundreds of times.

@Jerry-rd9my Год назад

It sure is. State amendments vs NEC can be confusing at test time. I always mark any Code section(s) in my NEC with the highlighted word "AMEND" so I know to go to my printed list of state amendments that are approved for use in the PSI testing center.

@timothybaker8234 Год назад

A friend of mine just had a modest house built. Most circuits have arch fault breakers. Every time he plugs in an electric drill it trips, also his toaster.

@daveisthatkid Год назад

So I've ran into this issue this past year where an Afci keeps tripping, so I check all the devices, tighten up screws. Try to isolate what the problem is, but it's so intermittent what you think was the problem turns out it isn't and still trips. Almost give up and change to normal breaker. I open the cover move (the same breaker) to the bottom of the panel. Stops tripping. What could be the cause of that? Makes no sense to me. It's happened only 2 times ever to me, both Siemens panels, both in an orientation where we have a bunch of afci breakers in a row in the top left of the panel. Reseating didn't fix only moving to the bottom of panel. (Even on the same phase seemed to fix the issue)

@happytimes724 Год назад

👍 great insight.

@emmanuelgutierrez8616 Год назад

Just making sure, those dual function breakers were just for outlets series right? Not light and switches

@emmanuelgutierrez8616 Год назад

Man, you said 2013 nec, that's been around long enough that i wish the DF breakers were cheaper already. Sounds like I'd have replace all my breakers. Hate they standardize the wrong breakers with a new electrical panel

@mathman0101 Год назад

Smart? you are alluding to machine learning or AI AFCIs . Arc-like signatures from inductive/capacitive (motors) and resistive loads (heating elements) as you suggests AFCIs are are being false tripped from arc like waveform signatures. Trip thresholds would also need to be adjusted. You really need good quality power quality meters and a higher sampling portable oscilloscope to capture and see these transients. Surge suppression can reduce some in-rush trips and other filtering can help but then your back to software to capture those false signals as opposed hardwired filters which may only pick-up specific arc like signatures rather than learn about a whole bunch of them depending on loads attached to branch circuits. Not sponsored but I have found the Leviton smartrip pro receptacle to be very good in removing false trips. The only thing that trips it every 6-months or so is the microwave I can live with that as it’s easy and quick to reset.

@timbreunung1359 Год назад

Would you or anyone, happen to know why the factory knockouts are offset on a 4x4 metal junction box on the 2 sides?

@canoeist Год назад

I am starting a project to change to arc fault breakers. It seems like I can buy dual function (Arc & Ground fault) for the same price as an arc fault. Would it be ok to switch all the 15 & 20 amp circuits to DF type breakers? Thanks.

@billthompson9482 Год назад

When you are doing a service upgrade are you installing AF breakers on all of the existing Circuits? Or is this applying to new construction only? I am seeing a lot of Service upgrades not getting AF breakers installed in my area in Long Island New York.

@ericstandefer9138 Год назад

If you upgrade you are supposed to make it code compliant with your jurisduction, but the cost of these are probably making people bypass it. In CA these dual functions are upwards of $100.

@TwilightxKnight13 Год назад

Always remember, the code is only as required as the AHJ (inspector) makes it. For various reasons, some legitimate, some not, many inspectors allow variations from the code. If your local inspector is not requiting AF protection, and the electricians in the area know that, it is likely they are going to save the cost and just install standard breakers.

@downtownPatna Год назад

This is cool AF 😎

@TheAkjody Год назад

I think I would feel better and make everything GFCI as I go along. I feal like every year or two I have to replace the GFIC breaker on the PED for my salt water pool. It has its own breaker. I would like to just change the breaker and be done with it. Really if there is an issue in the electricity it will help show the problems faster. I had a 50 youa garage burn down I think now after watching from parallel Arc to a nail that might have compromised a wire in the damp humid NC area. I think from the description a GFI would have tripped. I don't know the GFIC math yet to know. Anyhow... I am thinking unless running a brush motor I want everything upgraden and just label it to avoid confusion if a repair is needed. Even hair dryers are brushless arc free motors. Possibly my garage shed. My grinder could make a arc. I can have a arc friendly CI on the home that does not require a ext generator to use. Hopefully I think I am making smarter statements now. Chances are I still have this wrong. GFIC plug easy arms reach, everything on the dual breaker.

@magnum12pm Год назад

I have a garage with only 2 hots and a neutral running underground to a sub panel. The garage has a ground rod of its own and bare copper conductor ran into the sub panel. The sub panel neutral and ground are unbonded. Is this acceptable or Not? The Main breaker box has a 60 amp breaker that is feeding the garage subpanel.

@barelystablefarm7151 Год назад

Acceptable by today's standards? No. The ground needs to be carried all the way back to the main panel (4 wire) and if it's a detached structure it needs at least 1 ground rod (depending on resistance)

@shadowgenesis2877 Год назад

About the false tripping of arc fault, seen it happen on a job site. High starting load motors such as a table or chop saw can trip them. So I learned from it that a "workshop", large corded tool, should use regular breakers. Now as you said about arc wielders, I can see that as time moves on and breakers get smarter the requirement for everything being on arc fault happening.

@curtisbme 8 месяцев назад

I've only seen this with my very old stuff. All the modern stuff does not seem to trip anything.

@ftShinanigan Год назад

Doesn't NEC require all 15/20a circuits in a dwelling to be AFCI protected?

@TwilightxKnight13 Год назад

Not all, but pretty damn close and every code cycle adds more. It will not be long before all dwelling circuits, inside and out, will require both AFCI and GFCI with the exception of circuits dedicated to a device whose very function creates arcs like a welder. Equipment/appliance manufacturers also have to continue to refine their devices to reduce/eliminate nuisance tripping if they want to sell any products.

@jeremyv2040 Год назад

dumb question...but can electricity jump from a connected 5/8 ground rod too a 1/2 grounding rod -not connected & underground? if so, will it still ground things out?

@TwilightxKnight13 Год назад

circuits are not generally completed through the earth

@TheLukemcdaniel Год назад

C-C-C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!!!!

@tomtom7955 Год назад

a man of culture I see.

@johnnymalicoat754 Год назад

Do smoke detectors have to be afci protected?

@tonys.1946 Год назад

I'm awestruck that basically every breaker in a house is supposed to be an arc fault breaker... And yet they are SO expensive!

@alphasaiyan5760 Год назад

And unreliable too. They trip randomly. Turning on a light switch can cause an arc.

@jmscox452 Год назад

So. Being that everything will be ARC/GFCI protected why not make the main breaker dual function? My coworker from Greece says they already have that in their panels. Then having an argument with the owner of my company- he says the the pigtails from the breakers have to stay coiled up for “resistance”. And he also says you have to add white wire to the coil then to the neutral bar. I started laughing. I said they coil it for packaging purposes. What you guys say about that?

@LordSaliss Год назад

AFCI breakers have a ton of problems nuisance tripping with computers, especially gaming computers. They should not be installed in any place you will run a desktop computer or home server.

@TwilightxKnight13 Год назад

Meh. They work just fine in conjunction with a UPS. We upgraded our service and installed a new Square D Homeline plug on neutral service panel with all dual function breakers throughout. We added UPS to both computer stations in the office. The only circuit that ever had nuisance tripping was the air compressor in the garage. Luckily it was on a dedicated circuit so I just replaced the breaker with a standard unprotected model.

@billk8780 Год назад

Dustin, At 4:17-ish you mention putting a refrigerator on an arc fault interrupter circuit. My home builder friend remodeled his own kitchen and dutifully installed an AFCI. Subsequently he had numerous nuisance trips on his new refrigerator. The local building inspector winked and said if it was his house he'd go with a ground fault interrupter on this dedicated circuit because the compressor motor causes the nuisance trips. Like to know others' experiences on this.

@RJ-ej1nr Год назад

Generally frustrated on nuisance tripping with AFCIs. Motors are typically where the issues are - primarily compressors, but I've seen other motors such as washing machines, shredders, and vacuum cleaners, along with a non motor device - space heaters. Even seen old desktop computers tripping them. Swapping with another AFCI breaker/device has a ~50-50 fix rate initially, but goes down to more like 25-75 over the long term. There's no way to keep a client happy with consistency like that.

@keno4767 Год назад

what are your thoughts about dual function breakers being installed in older homes which still have older knob and tube wiring? Would you recommend using dual function breakers for all circuits?

@hammercity905 Год назад

wow electrical materials are cheep in the USA In Canada a GFCI plug is about $40 and a Duel Function 15A breaker is between $100 to $200

@foodsafetypragmatist 10 месяцев назад

Truly enjoying your videos. Can you speak specifically to the differences between combination vs dual vs all-in-one breakers? I have an Eaton box. Finishing the basement and it seems to me the all-in-one breakers, although expensive, are the way to go. Last question - when using all-in-one breakers, is a GFCI receptacle still required for wet bar and bathroom outlets? Seems to me it’s duplicate. 🤔

@DrD6452 Год назад

I have a question. Back in 1991 when I was working on a house I grabbed door bell wires which I though were only 12V wires and received a shock that literally dropped me to knees. That is what allowed me to release the wires because they ripped out of my hands when I dropped. My muscles were clinched tight so I couldn't let go of the wires. Both of my arms were numb and tingly for 2 days after this happened. This was a house over 100 years old and only had a fuse panel. If those wires I grabbed would have been on a GFCI circuit would I have gotten shocked like I did or would I have been protected from that?

@RJFerret Год назад

GFCI checks the difference between load and neutral, so not necessarily. If the current path was from the hot of those wires through the floor or something else you were touching, then yes. If the current path was from the hot and back through the neutral, then no. (Note, per "How Stuff Works" it only takes about 10 milliamps for muscles to clench.)

@brianpiper3188 Год назад

Most transformers for traditional door bells are 24v, just like HVAC call circuits. Circuit protection would be useless, because you're electromagnetically converting 120v AC to 24v DC. The secondary coil creates its own current flow when you touch or connect both ends with a load.

@DrD6452 Год назад

@@RJFerret It was a hot wire broke in 2. I was reaching over my head with one side of the hot wire in my left hand and the other side of it in my right hand and my entire body just completely clinched up tight.

@alphasaiyan5760 Год назад

Gfis don’t trip on short circuit or overload situations. They trip on ground fault situations. What’s funny is you can take a pair of plier and touch the neutral and ground on a gfi receptacle and it will trip. But say that gfci receptacle is out at the main panel where the neutral and ground are bonded and it doesn’t trip. Why? You can touch the hot and neutral and it will trip the breaker but not the receptacle. Why ? You can plug something into that gfi receptacle 100 times and use it over and over and it doesn’t trip but every now and then it will trip. Why ?

@daveyio87 Год назад

So when I put in an instant hot water heater, the installation guide says do not install on a arc fault circuit breaker as it may cause false trips. But when the town sent someone to inspect my work they told me i needed to install that breaker to pass inspection. So obviously i swapped it out for the inspection but afterwards i swapped it back. What is your opinion on the matter? I will check out your other video on the Arc fault breakers as maybe you answered it in there. Just crossed my mind while watching this one.

@alphasaiyan5760 Год назад

What you did is exactly what you do. You install the breakers to pass inspection and then you swap them out for whatever doesn’t need them. It’s crazy they thing people aren’t gonna do that lol. I’m not having to deal with shit tripping all the time.

@jfbeam Год назад

Your AHJ needs a swift kick. It was installed as per manufacturer specifications. But inspectors are all too often power hungry idiots with an axe to grind. Doing what they demand is often the only way to make them go the f*** away. Of course, you're stuck with a very expensive paperweight.

@TwilightxKnight13 Год назад

sorry to be pedantic, but it is a pet peeve of mine. It is just a water heater. There is no reason to heat, hot water, so there is no such thing as a hot water heater. 🙂

@TwilightxKnight13 Год назад

@@alphasaiyan5760 just remember that if there is a fire and the inspector examines the electrical system, they very well might deny the claim if improper circuit protection is installed. If it was the homeowner/DiY'er, then they are SoL. If it was a licensed eletrcian, don't be surprised when they sue you

@alphasaiyan5760 Год назад

@@TwilightxKnight13 lol. I’ve always said that same thing 👍I can’t stand when people say hot water heater

@ederrocha3491 Год назад

I work in New homes in NC. All our projects we put regular 20 amp brkrs on the kitchen outlets then put gfci Outlets on the first outlet in the circuits(minus the fridge outlet). Why do all our inspections pass if those kitchen circuits(including fridge outlet) aren't arc faulted?

@TastySnax12 Год назад

North Carolina hasn't adopted AFCI protection in kitchens yet. It's reserved for mostly living rooms and bedrooms.

@tomtom7955 Год назад

until recently FL was the same. In the grand scheme of things it should save some money those gfci receptacles aint cheap. I trimmed a house not to long ago and messed up and ordered gfcis for the kitchen and bathroom and when i did the panel I was like shit forgot dual function breakers are code now why did i buy all those gfcis... ironically the buyers home inspector wrote on his list that all these things need gfcis and the relator called me making a fuss and I had to explain they are protected by a breaker now and you dont need the gfci outlets anymore if you use those breakers.

@TwilightxKnight13 Год назад

Passing/failing an inspection is 100% entirely at the discretion of the inspector. You can do everything "right" and he can still fail you if he wants something done differently. OTOH, you can make all kinds of mistakes and he can still pass you if he wants to. The code is only as valuable as the AHJ is at understanding and enforcing it

@tomtom7955 Год назад

@@TwilightxKnight13 btw it was not a county inspector is was a private home/safety inspector they have no authority, they make a list of potential issue for us to check out and fix if necessary, before we sign off on it for insurance. (think they are gonna air B&B the place) Don't know how much you have dealt with those guys but they usually don't know much more than your average homeowner, pretty sure its a 3 week online coarse or something.

@TNFTAW Год назад

SPOILER: Everywhere

@ydnark83 Год назад

The short answer is anywhere you really want to piss off a carpenter...

@tomtom7955 Год назад

you can only plug in so many saws and air compressors to a 20amp circuit regardless of whether its on a gfci or not. my favorite is when they jam a pencil in the reset button to keep it from popping and then get pissed when it burns up and they gots 0 pwr .

@ydnark83 Год назад

@@tomtom7955 gfci's are not the problem and there is usually a non gfci outlet available anyways, its the afci's that are everywhere and don't like the arcing in big motors, 1 compressor or big saw is sometimes all it takes

@tomtom7955 Год назад

@@ydnark83 you said carpenter so my mind instantly went to defiled T-poles and I forgot about the arcfault context :)

@Zarathustra-H- 3 дня назад

The NEC won't be satisfied until every breaker costs $500+

@BobBob-nr1zt Год назад

this video's background music isn't loud enough nor annoying enough

@JimmyD-ry1fb 2 месяца назад

So afci is required for disposal and dish wash 🤔

@jfbeam Год назад

AFCI isn't listed in those places because they haven't thought of them. (thus 14) Many kitchen gadgets can (DOES) trip GFCI's, but that rule has been there for a few cycles now. The day is coming where you won't be able to get a breaker for less than $!000 because of the miniature Cray that needs to be in it to do all the totally unnecessary bull manufacturers want to make you buy. Like requiring a GFCI on a refrigerator outlet... what/who are they trying to protect? Refrigerator sales? (older one's MOST people have are high inductive loads that trip the idiotic 5mA sensing US GFCI's. If you buy an expensive, modern inverter based fridge ($$$$) then GFCI usually won't trip. But when it does, there's no alarm, and you'll only notice when it's been off for hours or days.) AFCI's are stupid expensive, and generally aren't fixing a problem anyone has. (unless that problem is sagging profits.)

@TwilightxKnight13 Год назад

You're fighting a losing battle. Most code changes are initiated by repeated issues that risk equipment damage or injury. The data is clear that homes are safer when they are AF and GF protected. You can continue to be angry about the added cost, added burden, aggravation, etc. or you can just accept that is the direction we are going and look for ways to mitigate the inconveniences.

@davidarnold290 2 месяца назад

ground fault yes arc fault ridiculous if only all switches could connect with no load it might not be but switches are used to switch loads so wtf? In a combustible environment Maybe but that's it

@jolyonwelsh9834 Год назад

As these requirements expand, so to does homelessness.

@TwilightxKnight13 Год назад

Expanding the requirements does not cause homelessness. Not expanding the requirements might if your house burns down from a fire caused by an unprotected circuit fault

@jolyonwelsh9834 Год назад

@@TwilightxKnight13 Not directly it doesn't. It just adds just a little more to the cost of buying a home one thing we don't need right now. However it is a contributing factor.

@MDAdams72668 Год назад

2 things 1 this will "obsolete" a ton of old power tools they also arc (internally, commutator to brushes) and 2 Imagine a simple remodel and add 4-10k for new electrical BOTH will mean consumers will go broke really fast Grandpa's saw (that works just fine) NFG want to use that old drill to put up blinds NOPE This was the only way manufacturers could get rid of the quality tools that we still own(by making them useless) MONEY GRAB 100% You WILL own NOTHING (and be happy) LOL

@gary4739 Год назад

Why are you looking the 2013 NEC code instead of 2020 or 2023?

@RJ-ej1nr Год назад

Dual function is great for meeting both AFCI and GFCI requirements compactly and with lower cost than doing them separately. I don't like adding AFCI (via DF) in retrofits where not required due to nuisance tripping, but new is ok. The lack of requirement for AFCI in commercial environments implicitly shows their challenges in being used everywhere as a safety device.

@Sparky-ww5re Год назад

A common problem in retrofits, specifically older houses, is neutrals from different circuits tied together, and multiwire branch circuits, and I've seen mulitwire circuits on random breakers placed wherever there was space in the panel, so just because you don't see double pole breakers doesn't mean there isn't multiwire circuits in the house, which is a code requirement and a safety issue. A few manufacturers have double pole AFCI breakers in their product line, which can be used in multiwire circuits.

@RJ-ej1nr Год назад

@@Sparky-ww5re Good points! I find multiwire fairly common in late 80s and 90s wiring, and frequently the multiwire is not on a shared trip. Going back to dealing with knob/tube, shared neutral/return was the practice. I've used many 2 pole AFCIs and GFCIs, but I am not aware of any dual function 2 pole breakers, at least not for SqD/Siemens/Eaton.

@Sparky-ww5re Год назад

@@RJ-ej1nr through extensive research, two pole dual function breakers do not yet exist although I can see them being widely available in the next decade if not in the next code cycle or two. The 2020 NEC is already requiring the 30 amp dryer receptacle, and the 50 amp range receptacle if within 6 feet of the sink I believe, to be GFCI protected, and AFCI protection requirements have grown extensively over the last couple code cycles, to include all 15 and 20 amp 120 volt circuits within a dwelling unit, for all practical purposes. Even the 240 volt, 15 and 20 amp receptacle like you might use for a large window air conditioner or large electric heater, is now required to be tamper resistant, so I can see where we're heading in the not so distant future.

@jfbeam Год назад

Or it shows they aren't as necessary as they claim.

@calvinjosey5784 Год назад

I cannot get enough of your videos, and appreciate them so much. I was curious if you have done a video on overload current protection on secondary conductors? I’ve been telling the apprentices I work with to watch your videos, and one of them just got a 66 on their last quiz pertaining to secondary conductor protection. Much thanks and please keep posting code videos!

@av1204 Год назад

all of this sht is a joke. trying to stop the .0000000001 bad thing from happening.

@tomtom7955 Год назад

pretty much

@mattolson7037 Год назад

It’s all to make more money

@TwilightxKnight13 Год назад

you can be aggravated and pissed off about it, or you can accept that this is the direction the code is going, accept it, and work towards complying. Life is too short to be pissed off all the time about something you cannot change

@tomtom7955 Год назад

@@TwilightxKnight13 you know you can go to the meetings and fight stuff right ? This laying down and just accept what daddy government says is what's wrong with half the country

@brianpiper3188 Год назад

If I wrote the code, everything would be dual function. I have seen some sketchy things that warrant it.

@staceyschnee801 Год назад

Right up until you go on vacation for 2 weeks and come back to find that everything in your fridge has gone bad from a nuisance trip of the afci or gfci..

@TwilightxKnight13 Год назад

@@staceyschnee801 and you can make the same argument for a lot of things around the house. You could come back to a failed water heater tank that filled the basement with water. Or you could come home to a house that burned down because the small appliance gas line running to the range broke at the nipple from the vibrations cause by opening and closing the oven door. People act like nuisance tripping is an insurmountable issue, and it isn't. There are ways to mitigate it. You just have to take some initiative.

@brotheradam Год назад

I actually ran a 'blank face' gfci for my fridge and another for my freezer, both at height and space so they are visible, and labelled. My dishwasher and washing machine are the same- the gfci is above but behind the machine so it is visible and accessible.

@vitorao Месяц назад

I never understood why most American electrical installations have GFCI at the level of the receptacle, instead of a RCD or RCBO at the distribution panel, as most installations worldwide do.

@sparky8910 Год назад

I gonna come down to a whole household sensored system. Smart programmable breakers are the next step.

@darinjohnson3671 13 дней назад

I was confused which one to use. I will run the wiring and get a licensed electrician to hook up the dual breaker for me. I think just use duo function breakers is a good practice

@harveypaxton1232 3 месяца назад

How do you feel about plug in/on neutrals? I always put combination receptacles on the Kitchen SA circuits due to amount of nuisance trips that come from that area. It saves the customer from having to go outside to reset the breaker. (Calif.)