In this video we'll be exploring whether Daenerys Targaryen or Charles II of Spain/Charles Habsburg is more inbred than the other one. The result is kind of surprising!
To be fair, Targaryen's also have magic blood that allows them to tame and ride fire-breathing dragons, so maybe genetics work a bit differently in the world of Ice and Fire.
These royal families, even as far back as ancient Egypt, were fully aware of the consequences of incest that was why incest was against the law even in antiquity for non royals.
There's a family in Austria that was inbred (brother and sister, father/daughter) for 4 generations. They lived in tents and mobile homes on a large plot of land. I think they're known as the Colts. The youngest of them would just pee on the floor.
I think incest can be so selfish when people inbreed. I’m not completely opposed to incest, though; I have an open-minded view of it as long as it’s consensual and inbreeding is not being practiced. I’m completely fine with someone being in love with a family member. I mean, I personally would never practice it, but whoever you are, you do it.
I heard that Marie Antoinette had pouty lips due to her slight Habsburg jaw. Joffrey was described as having pouty lips so I wonder if George used that as a sign of him being inbred.
None of this inbreeding was to keep the bloodline pure. It was to keep power in the family. For the Hapsburgs it was because of their inheritance laws which meant that daughters could inherit in the absence of sons. So they married their oldest daughters to another Hapsburg. For the Targaryens, it was to limit the number of people who could ride dragons. This is why you got less inbreeding after the dragons were gone until you get to Daenerys’s parents and grandparents (her grandparents fell in love, her parents were told that the Prince Who Was Promised would come from their line).
A high consanguinity coefficient doesn’t guarantee horrible results. Raising it is more like loading another bullet into a revolver before paying Russian roulette. The odds of bad results go up, but are not guaranteed. Cleopatra was at .45 or so and was pretty sharp.
Historians have concluded that Cleopatra was probably from a not related concubine, which helped her immensly. And she was actually no great beauty either. Believe the results man. Yes some inbred people are relatively well functioning, but good god would you want to try your hand at that, with your children having all the problems Charles suffered ?
Another example would be Charles II’s sister and her daughter. Still I feel like the Targaryens should have more complications than going mad sometimes.
IDK if my source was the most trustworthy, but did read that marriages and registry say that Cleopatra should be around 0.48-0.52, but there's good chance the "reset" mentioned in the video happened with her mother, grandmother or both getting with a random guy, mostly because someone that inbred would likely be miscarried or one of the parents would be infertile (Charles's sister, Maria Antonia, is an exemple of that: she married their uncle and would miscarry in the rare event of concieving)
The Habsburgs didn't inbreed for purity of blood, but to keep dowries of lands in the family. They got the lands by marrying. They knew they could lose them that way, so they tried to keep from losing them the same way.
Considering that Daemon's parents are written as being brother and sister as was their parents (and so on) and Rhanera's parents were first cousins (both of whom came from brother/sister parents)... From your own real world data, that family tree should have produced a twitching pile of mush long before Dani and her brothers. Which furthers the fact that their is no way Cleopatra could have been as inbred as her family bush indicates. I think it is pretty much a given; all the supposed Ptolemaic sibling matches? Were in fact, only ceremonial in nature. The Egyptian dynasty's all lasted much longer then the Hapsburgs and it was not due to being ignorant of what happens when you cannot learn from past mistakes and your gene pool is so shallow it would need a dousing rod to locate it.
No Cleopatra could have easily been as inbred as claimed. Inbreeding will make it more likely dormant recessive genes are expressed. if there is no pre existent dormant genetic diseases, a family won't suffer the negative affects of inbreeding as much. The Ptolemies likely suffered from graves disease and clearly many of them were mentally ill as they were so homicidal. But graves disease was not passed down to Cleopatra and a lot of other Ptolemies didnt suffer from it either. inbreeding does NOT guarantee genetic diseases.
The sibling unions weren't ceremonial at all. Only Ptolemy II and Arsinoe II's marriage was likely ceremonial and even then we don't know. From Ptoemy IV and Arsinoe III the sibling incest began and there is no evidence it was just ceremonial. Like all ancient Egyptian royals who believed they were gods your sister was an ideal match.
The Ptolemies lasting longer then the Habsburgs doesnt mean they were less inbred. it means the Habsburgs just overall had worse genetics to work with. A sibling union could have normal healthy kids with no genetic issues as there are no dormant diseases in the family. Then a set of 1st cousins could have children severely disabled due to the family having genetic diseases in their history. Incest doesn't guarantee problems nor is the outcome always what people expect.
As is so often the case with historical sources, it should be taken with a grain of salt. It's possible, even likely, that Charles II had hydrocephaly (excess water inside the skull) on top of his many other disabilities, but the "brain the size of a pea" is definitely an invention - or at the very least, exaggeration - by the person performing the autopsy. if it had been true Charles wouldn't have survived past birth or even been stillborn. There is probably an element of propaganda regarding the last spanish Habsburg, since they had quite a lot of enemies at the time of his death. publicizing that Charles (who was Habsburg through-and-through) was some kind of deformed monstrosity is definitely something that could have been used for anti-Habsburg propaganda.
Yes. There was a kid born with 8% of his brain, basically a thin bit of a brain around the inside of the skull and the rest was water - he's fully functional but he's not that bright
@rosiehawtrey Interesting. Do you know what the boy's name was? I would like read about it. I'm still stuggling to believe a person with a brain the size of a pea, could have enough function to walk and talk.
Aegon III and viserys II have the highest inbreeding score of any character in ASOIAF and way higher than Charles despite both being products of uncle-niece marriages l. Both aegon and viserys were described as supremely handsome and viserys lived a long and healthy life (likely only cut short by his son poisoning him). In terms of fertility, Aegon had 5 and viserys had 3 and probably coulda had way more cause his wife left him when he was 19.
Fascinating video! I really enjoyed it - just had one minor correction to make, because art history pedantry 🙃- at 3:29 the portrait shown for "Philip III" is actually a 1623 portrait of Philip IV (one of the earliest done by Velázquez). Most portraits of Philip IV show him with that distinctive mustache like we see at 4:43 or 5:19. In conclusion, the Spanish Habsburgs had too many Philips and not enough dragons - no wonder the empire declined!
I thought the point was that Valyrians were a bit different to the rest of the world, that's why they have metallic hair and purple eyes, a high heat tolerance, and an immunity to most common illnesses. It makes sense that they aren't negatively affected by in-breeding in the way normal people would be and that's why it became a common way of keeping family money together in Valyria. It's pretty much spelled out in the book that once the Targaryens moved to Westeros they found most people had issues with their incest marriages and had to explain that it's different for them. The fact that Jaime and Cersei aren't Valyrians is why they got into so much trouble for their relationship, normal people aren't allowed to inbreed any further than first cousins.
Well, the Targaryens and the orther Drangonlords families of the Valyrian Freehold are probably turly part DRAGON with some blood magic thing going on. The Targaryens are said to be otherwordly pretty and attractive, because they ARE all MAGIC
Well Martin doesn't quite shy away from painting plenty of troublesome relationships in good light, so I don't doubt it could extend for family-fucking fetish
Well the Valyrians have literal magic that runs down in their veins that allows them to ride Dragons and were also described as inhumanely very beautiful.
there is an element of magic at play, there is a heavy implication that the Valyrians had some kind of mystical origin - they could bond with dragons and some of them have prophetic powers. the Targaryen inbreeding was their way of trying to preserve this magic, since they were the last dragon riding valyrian house left in the world. I strongly believe their downfall is tied to the fact that they continued this practice long after the dragons had died out, and was continued more for tradition's sake than actual practicality, resulting in the "Mad King", a dude so vile he managed to turn the whole kingdom against him, end ~300 years of Targaryen rule, and almost extinguish his entire family. Also the most prominent living incestuous couple in the main story (Jaime + Cersei) are portrayed as very toxic and their eldest child is a sociopath, so I dont think Game of Thrones is really trying to make incest look good
No it’s not. It presents multiple problematic incestuous relationships, as well as indicating that “madness” and physical deformities can result from it. There’s plenty of insanity, extra fingers and toes, deformed stillbirths and miscarriages, and people who are mentally “slow” in that family. Adding in a handful of beautiful people (no doubt due to their magic blood) doesn’t mean they’re showing inbreeding as a good thing. Half the families in Westeros AND the faith of the seven (the dominant religion in the story) condemn inbreeding of the Targaryens.
@@Ahoykatieee yeah there are a lot of weird deformed stillbirths, failed pregancies, increased infant mortality, fertility issues, 'delicate health' and serious mental health problems (Aerion Brightflame anyone?) - and thats before you count characters like Maelys the Monstrous (whose degree of inbreeding is unknown, but he is from a Targaryen cadet branch). The idea that Targaryens were all very beautiful and great probably comes from centuries of Targaryen propaganda trying to defend their incestuous practices. Come to think of it, Tyrion being born a 'dwarf' might be the result of incest as well. After all his parents were first cousins. His sister Cersei definitely has some kind of mental issues too, though whether that can be attributed to consanguinity is hard to say.
I want to know the consanguinity/how inbred Philip J Fry is. Mat Pat won't make a Film Theory on if being your own grandfather is possible and I need my fix!
10+ subsequent sibling marriages would have roughly the same result. Don't forget to have many many kids in every generation, so that at least one turns out more or less ok, and can produce the next one. Basically, like making a pure lineage of lab mice
Well, Game of Thrones was a fantasy setting, not a reality sitting or documentary. We can take some creative liberties and say that the blood of the people of Westerose is far more resilient than any blood in real life.
I find it funny how George Martin babbles on about scientific accuracy in a fantasy world like criticizing 4 legged dragons and magic etc meanwhile he has the most inbred characters look normal because *they’re lizard people in another universe.* Talk about contradicting yourself George
Now Rhaenerya Targaryen is really inbreed. Her parents were cousins, her grandparents on her father side was brothers and sisters and where siblings with her mother, her greatest grand parents where brother and sister to.
In the books there a clues that Daenerys is not the person who she thinks is, meaning that she NOT Inbred. This her family tree that Aegon Targaryen (Unlikely) then comes Jaehnerys II her grandfather and Aerys her also father. Aemon (The Egg) marry a Blackwood, Jaenerys II marry his sister and then Aerys marry his sister too. Danerys is not inbred, I believe the Aerys's sister wife had an affair before her marriage to her brother a Knight name Bonifer Hasty that Dany grandfather. Viserys is unbalance because of 2 generations of inbreeding. Viserys is very much an inbred!!!
I love how there is so many videos expressing their dislike, horror, disgust and even go as far as explain why this practice is so wrong when is a fantasy novel. You legit find it in the fantasy shelf of your local book store. “Ew look she is marrying her uncle” “Ew they are brother and sister” “Ew they are aunt and nephew” Like seriously WE ALL KNOW IS EW. But in this period it is a normal practice. That the kingdom agree on in order to not have Targaryens burning their castles to the grown. You do your thing and ill do my thing kind of deal. However, during that period of time first cousins were the most common marriage in upper class houses. Example being the starks in the ASOIAF . Ned father married his first cousin Lyrra stark giving birth to Brandon, Lyanna, Ned and Benj. Tywin and Joanna are also first cousins. Viserys I was the son of Baelon and Alyssa Targaryen who were brother and sister of Aemma’s mother. They gave birth to Rhaenrya who was 75% Targaryen. Even Rhaena and Baela Daemon is Rhaenys first cousin and married her daughter Laena who daemon’s second cousin. But those marriages were okay because Laena was Velaryon and Daemon was Targaryen. We do not need to look into the biological facts because they don’t seem to apply in many of this characters Daenaerys walked into fire and came out with three hash dragons and not a single scar on her body aside from her hair being burn. Jon snow was killed and raised from the dead and was not consider a wight but everyone else did that did what Jon did. In the books Catelyn stark is up and running killing freys and Lannisters as lady stone heart with her throat cut open. Joffrey, mycella and tommen are children of a twin pair and have not once mention that they have any disabilities aside from Joffrey being a D. Just enjoy the story and the show. If they pick another time line the Targaryen ruled for 300 years and before that there weren’t Westeros. They were separated kingdoms under their own rulers. So if they are going to make something related to this houses the Targaryen will be the most popular family to show on screen and their incest is a core of who they are as house.
@@Mr50403 But his siblings, Tommen and Myrcella, are wonderful kids. Tommen's only abuse of power was trying to outlaw beets because he didn't like them.
The Health issues of Charles the Second are absurdly overexaggerated , especially by Anglos .And he was a great king .So everyone should apologize to him .
