Who is Withers in Baldurs Gate 3? 

There is also a statue of Jergal right in front of the room with his sacrophagus.

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Nothing……. Everything

Guess he didn’t know lmao I thought he would mention it

Where is that sir i want to go to that place too

D&D gods generally seem quite approachable XD

Remember, we're seeing Jergal long long LOOOOOONNG after he's tired of the game. He bas portfolios that made him an ultimate evil... but he'd grown tired, bored, weary, with no with the power and will to challenge him and give his existence meaning... He ironically stripped away the responsibilities that did nothing but blur his vision to the responsibility that truly impassioned him... his duty to record the balance of life and death in the world till the last trumpet sounds.

Yeah, the idea of this being a weird kind of smalltalk is quite entertaining :D

He actually made me tear up hahaha, even in a video game where all the characters are designed to like you, i got no bitches. Funny stuff aside, i liked karlach, and i just didnt get enough good boy points with her early on so she never liked me, but gale, laezel and astarion came onto me like a couple of trucks, but i didnt want to play around so i waited until it was too long xD

Agreed! Great character building.

As a non-DnD player, the name would have held no meaning to me even if he introduced himself as Jergal. However, it was fun piecing it all together while playing. The only thing I never figured out, story wise, was why. Maybe I missed some reading? Perhaps Larian forgot to add that bit themselves? Perhaps it's answered if I play a certain way and it's a rare encounter? no idea.

​@@chrisspellman5952he made the dead three gods and they were trying to turn everything into mindflayers who don't have souls. Withers tells you his motivation.

@@martinwest7250 oh, sorry. I meant why he was going by a different name.

@@chrisspellman5952 ah my bad

Some love it some hate it, haha

really weird when he asks that to your hireling who he resurrected partially himself and added his manerism when talk.

Also the concept art gives it away

This would explain why he gets so pissed at the Dead Three for erasing people’s souls by turning them into mind flayers

​@@poop_storm withers is strange when it comes to the subject of souls and mind flayers, one minute hes telling my mf tav that I still have a soul and im still me then in the epilogue he says mindflayers dont have souls. My headcanon is that like with vampires the soul is still there its just been cutoff from the divine and so to a gods eyes its gone or maybe the elderbrain or dead 3 siphons the souls away from the newborn mindflayers when it takes control of them which would help explain discrepancies we see in game since our mindflayer tav or karlach mf or Orpheus mf are unique in how we were changed. I mean in game its pretty clear mindflayers do have souls considering withers can resurrect a dead mf tav which by his own admission requires a soul (you see what its like when he resurrects someone without a soul when you use the hirelings) you can still use ki while a mindflayer, you can still astral project and so can the emperor, theres the whole aberrant mind sorcerer which again points to mf's having a soul of at least some sort. The ambiguity is kind of nice really for a game like bg3. My personal headcanon is that my mf tav is the same tav as before, I couldn't stomach the idea of karlach giving up and turning into one when I was still hoping to try and fix her heart, I wasnt sure if i could trust the emperor enough to destroy the elderbrain or be strong enough to, Orpheus i honestly assumed was going to be a mega racist so I didn't even want to attempt that path, so the only option left was my tav to sacrifice himself for the greater good of the city and people rather than pushing the responsibility onto someone else because that's what an actual hero does. I was so happy to learn I could go to avernus with karlach and mitigate the risks of my condition while simultaneously protecting someone my tav had grown to love. Id like to think if karlachs heart is fixed and we can leave avernus she might stay with illithitav me and we'll just constantly journey around looking for places and people who need saving because being close to danger and away from people is probably the safest option for everyone involved, hoping to eventually stumble onto a cure potentially or dying in service to helping people, continuing to be the tav he was and tried to be.

The game files elaborate on his backstory regarding the characters as well, he’s supposedly been tasked to assist the PCs by Helm as some sort of penance

Neeeeeeeerds!

He's like One Punch Man. Insanely strong but not very motivated.

:)

I'm playing a Cleric of Kelemvor because it's the closest way to play Grave Domain (my beloved) without mods. And it's definitely got some fun dialogue options.

There are a TON of really cool Cleric of Kelemvor Dialogs that other Clerics don't get. Mainly regarding NPCs mourning loss of loved ones.

I too think it was a good and reasonable choice!

Myrkul, Bane and Bhaal. The ??, the asshole and the monster.

There is a lot of hints all over the game!

;)

So essentially you need to pay back your debt first.

Even a death god respects the power of oaths

Also a good way to don't let people cheat their 10k gold debt with just a cheap 100 G respec

Interesting thought! ;)

Second that! It's a great game and I love what they did with the whole DnD ideas and culture.

Yeah, he is definitely the most interesting character in the game :)

I've read it in the comments, but haven't tried it myself! That's one for BG3... So many possible paths.

​@@dave_marian After passing this check you may comment the way he speaks is as if he knows Kelemvor personally.

You mean in Pen and Paper? If you have a campaign that features this pantheon go for it!

@@dave_marian yeah, in pen and paper, but I am the forever DM of my group and we haven't even played in months either. On a related note, I've been working on a setup for running a "roguelike" campaign. I have the dungeon/encounter generators down, but I'm still working on simple rules for automating monster actions. Because then we could at least do dungeon crawls with the Shared Campaign rules and not necessarily need a DM (so I can play more often).

Or just the "luminous being" -> Dungeon Master -> Larian

Didn't really like it in the beginning either but I got used to it.

@@dave_marianngl with how chill he is, old man withers fit.

the only reason I would disagree is that the one thing the GM does most of the time - at least in all the D&D games I played - is narrate and check your dice rolls. and that's a random female voice in BG3

I think they just said "Scribe of the Dead" in my first playthrough. Don't remember 100% though. But nevertheless, I think a lot of players might never have heard about either "Jergal" or "The Scrieb of the dead" before, DnD lore it not such a widespread topic :)

@@dave_marian "After the party has slain a group of undead scholars, the judge of death--Jergal--climbs out of his sarcophagus to greet them. He has been locked inside for years by the god Helm to atone for his part in raising the Dead Three, wicked gods who are now plotting to conquer the realms. Jergal is emotionless and excessively formal, both resigned to his fate and that of others. He is here to assist the party because that is his divine oath, not out of any true desire to act. Players can attempt to goad or attack him, but to minimal effect, as he is functionally immortal. His only goal was to see their faces, so he can find them at camp later to offer further assistance."

The speak with dead amulet you find in the tomb where withers is also mentions Jergel as well.

There is a check but it only really tells you this is a statue of the scribe of the dead

​​@@dave_marian They call him Jergal by name, with a voice line. "Is that... Jergal? I didn't think anyone still worshipped the Scribe of the Dead." Interestingly, they put the emphasis on the first syllable in the voice line (so it rhymes with "gerbil"), whereas I would have naturally pronounced it as it's pronounced in this video. No info on his history there though, no.

​@@pseudonym6387the scribe of the dead is jergal. You were so desperate to "um acshully" you just look illiterate.

Cool! Nice tidbit to know, thank you!

Honestly, I came to BG3 almost fresh off of playing a Tomb of Anihilation campaign for the first time, so my first impression of the BG3 character was "Wait.... could it...? No way this is the scrawny minion guy we crush-tackled over an office desk in that dungeon. Did our DM change this character that much for our campaign? I like this Withers way better! Acererak knows how to hire!" And literally just assumed he was some nondescript heirophant lich of Jergal's who either used to or would at some point work with Acererak.

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Him raising the dead three seemed like a decision made on a whim. Like, "hmm I wonder what would happen if I bestowed powers to the individuals afflicted with the very themes they would now rule over?"

he actually has a long term (like, thousands of millenia long) plan, that involved raising the three and stepping aside. Them teaming up with mind flayers was a wrench in his plan, and the second sundering was part of it, there's some like, deep lore around Jergal. Guy isn't as ancient as Selune or Shar, but he's got wheels within wheels@@babadukk

@@davidace7514 appreciate the additional info!

But none of that is lore accurate to the Realms. Jergal is the scribe of the dead. He hasn't been locked away, he is Kelemvor's scribe/assistant. And he isn't the judge of death, he isn't even a god anymore in the Realms as he gave his divinity up (the Dead Three technically aren't gods anymore either in 5th edition).

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Playing Asmodeus' advocate here, they don't have souls as he understand them. I can't remember the word he used but I think he or another character mentioned they didn't have apothic(?) souls, as in they don't show up in the outer planes upon death but go... somewhere else. I think it warrants an examination of what a soul really is as well as Wither's own motivations. I recommend looking at Ed Greenwood's Lord of The End of Everything which documents Jergal's history and origins

@@cameronpearce5943 😂 Asmodeus' advocate. Nice one. Thank you for the recommendation. I'll definitely look into it.

Asmodeus and the Blood Wars would be generally interesting on the topic of souls per se :)

​@@cameronpearce5943he was using apostolic as an adjective, he means illithids are incapable of the worship required to empower deities, they are still soulless by his standards

@@cameronpearce5943Makes sense, illithid are very much deliberately lovecraftian, it would make sense that they have souls that go

I was quite sure he was some kind of god or avatar, but with D&D having more Death Gods than some people have underwear in their drawers, I thought it would be fun to get a bit further into it ;)

​@@dave_marianMy take is that he is some entity working under Jergal orders, not Jergal himself. That's based on his initial dialog that made clear he is working under the instructions of someone else. In other words, Wither seems to be just a higher ranked version of the same order as the rest of the skeletons found in the area. The final cutscene points to his motivations; he seem to be there specifically to screw with the plans of the Dead Three, and likely to prevent their ascension. Other parts of the lore in the game point to the same conlcusion; the gods are scared of the Netherese brain, but Ao don't let them interfere directly. And is not likely that Jergal would abandon his sworn duty just to lend you a hand; if he wanted to interfere directly, he could handle the Netherese brain by himself or using an avatar like the dead three did. Of course, in the end we don't know for sure; it could be Jergal acting under Ao's orders... is just that's highly unlikely. And there is no ** way that the other god's wouldn't notice if that was the case.

I figured at first he was kelemvors chosen

Paladin too

@@Imman1s No, he is explicitly Jergal. Any "servant" would have been obliterated by one of the Dead Three for his "blasphemy" against them in the final scene.

It's quite a fun idea. I hope he has some fun too haha.

I’m understand that he charges money for game balance reasons, but it’s funny to speculate on what he actually needs money for. Maybe he has some expensive wines stashed away somewhere.

Could also easily be that he refers to Ao.

He most definitely is not a chosen of Jergal. On my play through I was a cleric of Jergal and passed some checks where I asked Withers if he is his avatar and the response was that he is not.

interesting! ive played as a cleric too, but it just gave me info that his powers are indeed divine@@pkropka

Makes sense.

:)

I'm sure he's very successful now.

@@dave_marianso long as he doesnt ever get his gold pickpocketed

Yeah but going into Cyric would be whole other clusterf""". And at the point in time the game plays at, Cyric has nothing to do with death anymore. Kelemvor, Jergal and Myrkul still do.

For a while it was quite common that gods in general could not interact with the material plane directly, which is why they have priests and avatars. But I am not sure if this is still the same after the time of trouble and the second sundering.

I left out Cyric because I thought it was quite obvious that after the second sundering he is nowhere near the death portfolio compared to Kelemvor or Jergal. And talking about him would warrant it's own video. One day maybe :)

True, that fits quite well.

That is awkwardly accurate.

Oh, please share

@kaygirl10101 As a cleric you in general can check in on Withers in Camp and have an option once where you determain that what type of creature he is and it usually says, if succeded, that he has a Divine Aspect to him, and as a Kelemvori Cleric you have a unique response to after that check is succeded where you ask Withers if he is a Avatar of Kelemvor. I don't remember quite what he directly said as i did quit a while ago, but he says something allong the lines of: "No. But close, your master thaugth you well." Thats the only type of responce which he doesn't intierly dismiss, which is a huge hint right at the start of the game what he might be/what his role in the game may suggest for anybody who knows the lore at least a bit surrounding gods and such. I found it very cool, that the Deathgod Cleric is the only Cleric that gets that response. I sadly didn't continue playing that save, so i don't know if their are more instences where unique Dialoge between a Kelemvori and Withers happens, wanted to check if a Kelemvori Dark Urge maybe had even uniquer dialog options.

@@fis_trashwitch Neat, thank you for the response. Dnd has such deep lore. Honestly, I disregard it and play homebrew, but it's interesting how it morphs over the versions.

@@kaygirl10101 Yes, its really intressting how it continues its lore over the versions. I play mostly homebrew to but often include the dnd lore as part of background lore of a diffrent material plane.

I've never played that ;) gotta try

I thought I read something more concrete in my first playthrough but couldn't replicate in the second. But well, that's dice rolls for you I guess.

@@dave_marianon bis tomb ist says he is the warden of the tombs

My first instinct as well. I played a Doomscribe, a specialty priest of Jergal in AD&D 2e, at most a couple years ago, and I could recognize the symbols and signs.

I think if you have an experienced dnd group who uses actual dnd lore for their world it might make sense. I remember I had a bit of a harder time since I played primarily homebrew with custom lore.

Cool! Interesting fact!

Helm is also a Quote interesting figure in and of itself!

Where are people getting the Helm thing from? Is it in game? Cause it's not in the wiki or dnd lore; Withers is just an avatar of Jergal, Jergal is an exarch who serves whoever is the Lord of the Dead, so in this case, he serves Kelemvor. Just like he served Cyric before him, and Myrkul before him.

​@@erdrickcapet3945as OP said it is datamined material. So technically it's in the game files but was not added in game proper.

I think many people who play BG3 don't know all that much about DnD lore, since even if you have played DnD before not all DMs use the "regular" background stories fully, or at all. I played almost exclusively homebrew for example.

Glad you enjoyed it got something out of it!

@@dave_marian actually there is a book in the temple of bhaal which states "...jergal..." asking the author "...what worth is a single mortals life..." so yeah the hint is in the game

Thank you! 👍

I didn't make the DC the first time.

Glad you enjoyed it!

Couldn't remember if they say a name, but they say it's the scribe of the dead.

Larian has a really great grasp on the stories. Really hope they work on more!

First instance I played something like that was Spellforce 1 I think.

Concept art the same ;) which is probably even easier to find for not so tech-savy people :D

Hit a sore spot on the man ;)

would be interesting, but you would also need WotC for the DnD IP. Not sure if they are that much into collaborations. Not too sure about FromSoft either :D

True

Interesting is good!

Agree, its fun to piece stuff together.

Would make sense.

Glad you enjoyed it!

It is a good story.

Appreciate it! Thanks! ;)

:D

Yes I loved the way they integrated him!

;)

That would actually not even be that weird for DnD lore.

^_^d

If we know one thing about the DnD pantheons is that they have quite a reputation for not always doing what Ao wants

I mean technically every god can have a paladin. Technically paladins don't even have to be sworn to a deity, they could also take their oath towards a concept or an idea.

@@dave_marian Yup lol. If a person believes with all their heart that eating mushrooms and dancing naked in the woods is a worthy cause to devote their life too, then they become a Paladin of Eating Mushrooms and Dancing Naked in the Woods.

Second that.

XD well put sir

Probably a reference to godhood?

@@dave_marian probably, yeah... I only said that because the OP called him undead.

As described in the video ;)